Another Somalia pirate has bagged another ship.

[Freiwillige]

"ATHENS (AFP) – A Greek cargo ship has been seized by pirates in the Gulf of Aden off the coast of Somalia, Greece's merchant marine ministry said Sunday.
The MV Saldanha was on its way to Slovenia to deliver its cargo of coal with 22 crew members on board, a ministry spokesman said, without giving further details.
According to a BBC report whose details were confirmed by the British defence ministry, the ship was boarded by pirates who warned the captain of a nearby British warship, the HMS Northumberland, to stay away.
The Saldanha was reportedly sailing under a Maltese flag. The British warship is in the area as part of a European Union taskforce to combat pirate attacks.
Pirates attacked over 130 merchant ships in the Gulf of Aden last year, more than double the 2007 total, according to the International Maritime Bureau, which tracks piracy and shipping security issues.
More than 150 suspected pirates were arrested by naval patrols in 2008."-Yahoo AFP





I think its time to take a page straight out of WWII and start putting deck guns on these freighters. And maybe start sending in destroyers to rake these small boats in port with cannon fire. Sink everything including the fishing boats! This situation is getting absurd and its time to draw a hard line. Bomb every port thay have into oblivion, Start a convoy system thru the gulf of Aiden, Lets make some Q ships! Lets eradicate this threat once and for all!:stare:

[irish1958]

I agree; send in the Marines. It worked before.

[Tribesman]

I think its time to take a page straight out of WWII and start putting deck guns on these freighters.
Unfortunately there are lots of legal complications and owners and insurers don't like complications .

Sink everything including the fishing boats!
You mean like the Indian Navy did recently ?
That didn't turn out too well did it , killing the innocent seamen and letting the pirates escape .

Start a convoy system thru the gulf of Aiden
There already is a convoy system in place , but even convoyed ships have been attcked .

[fatty]

Sink everything including the fishing boats!

Would make for nice TV but unfortunately this is how pirates became pirates in the first place.

[A Very Super Market]

Its all because they're poor, so bombing the only places that could possibly make them not poor is absurd.

[Tribesman]

Its all because they're poor, so bombing the only places that could possibly make them not poor is absurd.
Not really , the upsurge in piracy is mainly a result of the invasion which put the warlords with their money and their need for more money back in power

[baggygreen]

Which invasion? By invasion are you referring to the presence of foreign troops the Somali Govt asked for from the AU, who have currently around 5400 pairs of boots on the ground?

Or are you referring to the US presence that the illustrious Bill Clinton (dem) put there back in the early 1990s? If you're referring to that, I hope you can draw a direct and irrefutable link between the US presence there nearly 20 years ago and the rise in piracy which has come about over the past 5 or so years?

[Skybird]

Ships with landing decks + a fleet or helicopters armed with FFAR. Shoot on sight with no early warning. Destroy every pirate boat, no matter type and size, getting identified. Air raids on coastal villages where pirate boats have been observed to operate from, start from, return to. Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.

Piracy will drop drastically within short time.

[fatty]

Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.


German Shipowner Paid Ransom to Somali Pirates (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578495,00.html), hope you don't mind eating cat food ;)

[Freiwillige]

:timeout: Poor is no excuse. There are poor people all over the world, Not many of them are Pirates. And as far as law is concerned, Somalia has no government and no imposed laws. Its currently a nation of warlords who extort money from the west to buy more weapons and attack boats to increase their ability to extort money from the west. Its a cycle that needs to be crushed. They have made billions to buy weapons. This money isnt going to food or medical aid for the population. Its going to weapons pure and simple.

Its time to stop the excuses and start their destruction. It will sound like this, "Tomahawk cruise missle LOS!

Seriously start rigging up Q-ships and blast them into the depths of Neptune!

[A Very Super Market]

Well christ, what other nation has the entirety of its coastline next to a major shipping route? Indonesia has piracy problems too!

[Freiwillige]

Good point, But Indonesia has a government who is making an effort to cull those forces. So at least we have something to work with. Somalia has no Government.
Nobody we can put pressure on politically. So bring out the cannons since I'm sure ours are much larger than there's!:arrgh!:

Might=Right in cases like this.

[Max2147]

The presence of piracy at sea is a direct result of the lack of a government on the shore.

There are poor people all across Africa. Lots of African countries have long coastlines. But no other African countries have piracy problems like Somalia. Their governments, weak/corrupt/brutal as they may be, don't let it happen.

The solution to this problem has to come from inside Somalia. The outside world has been trying to set up a Somali government for the past 20 years, and every effort has failed despite bucketloads of aid. Meanwhile, the northern separatist region of Somaliland has managed to set up a functioning and reasonably democratic government in the area under their control, despite receiving absolutely nothing from the outside world.

In the meantime, as any sub skipper knows, escorted convoys are the best way to stop attacks on merchant shipping. One destroyer from an international force with a patrol chopper should be enough to deter any pirate attacks on a convoy. Unfortunately there's no political will to make that happen.

[Frame57]

"Yo ho, Yo ho a pirates life for me...":arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:

[Freiwillige]

I still say its time to blow anything larger than a rowboat into bags of splinters. There's enough political correctness in this world. Let every vessal they got burn!

[sunvalleyslim]

Piraticy ends when the Mighty take charge.........They (Pirates) will prevail until they get their Ass kicked hard enough...........We're talking bands of regenades who only know one thing, violence to get what they want......If it's violence they want it, bring on.....Only the mighty survive

[magicsub2]

look out, otherwise the future will turn out like crimson skies!(2000 game):doh: :doh: :doh: :o :o

[A Very Super Market]

Christ, I feel like I'm in Dr. Strangelove...:doh:

[Etienne]

Christ, I feel like I'm in Dr. Strangelove...:doh:

Welcome to GT, where all of mankind's problems can be solved by the application of MORE FIREPOWER.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Tchocky]

Piraticy ends when the Mighty take charge.........They (Pirates) will prevail until they get their Ass kicked hard enough...........We're talking bands of regenades who only know one thing, violence to get what they want......If it's violence they want it, bring on.....Only the mighty survive

Piraticy ends when the Mighty take charge
They (Pirates) will prevail until they get their
Ass kicked hard enough
We're talking bands of regenades who only know one thing,
violence to get what they want

If it's violence they want it, bring on
Only the mighty survive

Make the pie higher!
Make the pie higher!

[nikimcbee]

Ships with landing decks + a fleet or helicopters armed with FFAR. Shoot on sight with no early warning. Destroy every pirate boat, no matter type and size, getting identified. Air raids on coastal villages where pirate boats have been observed to operate from, start from, return to. Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.

Piracy will drop drastically within short time.

Right on! They need to sink every last one of them on sight and not pick up survivors. (my be u-boats in the area)

[diver]

In the meantime, as any sub skipper knows, escorted convoys are the best way to stop attacks on merchant shipping. One destroyer from an international force with a patrol chopper should be enough to deter any pirate attacks on a convoy. Unfortunately there's no political will to make that happen.

This is already underway.

But it has not deterred attacks on ships.

And it has been shown that one ship with one helo is just not sufficient to guard that much.

This stuff makes for interesting reading:
http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/12/six-minutes-can-lead-to-six-months.html

"The article lays out an atmosphere of tension, stress, and anxiety among the ships of the convoy. As the French ship mans battle stations, they search in the night for the suspected vessel that spooked the Barrock. As the tension rises, other ships also start issuing alerts, and the story ends by describing what amounts to a panicked night in the convoy with the French frigate chasing ghost sightings for several tense hours"



I would say more maritime patrol aircraft on staion would be important in successfully guarding such convoys, allowing ships to be able to weed out false alarms and not risk sending thier helo out on a wild goose chase making it out of reach when really needed in a hurry.
A carrier from either the USN or an EU country would probably be a valued asset.

[Tribesman]

Which invasion?
That would be the invasion that allowed the collection of warlords to extend their powerbase beyond Baidoa again and also cemented the position of the Puntland administration .
So no , nothing to do with Clinton or the small AU deployment .

[JALU3]

I would say more maritime patrol aircraft on staion would be important in successfully guarding such convoys, allowing ships to be able to weed out false alarms and not risk sending thier helo out on a wild goose chase making it out of reach when really needed in a hurry.
A carrier from either the USN or an EU country would probably be a valued asset.
A Carrier might be a bit much, maybe a LHA/LHD outfitted in a Sea Control Ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Control_Ship) aircraft load out as the flagship of the present multi-national flotilla. This increases air assets, adds another hull for escort or patrol duties, and provides additional fire power, and ship boarding capability if necessary.

[Skybird]

Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.


German Shipowner Paid Ransom to Somali Pirates (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578495,00.html), hope you don't mind eating cat food ;)
I said what I mean. That includes germany.

Germany - that is so schizoid in patrolling the waters there that now we start to reflag our own warships, and raise other national flags onboard when doing this with regard to pirate, and flag other national flags onboard when doing that with pirates - just so that we will not do it under a german flag.

Would that be possible in the proud British navy, or the self-confident US Navy? Denyiong your own armed forces, ashaming those serving in them by declaring the temporarily servinf another country instead of Germany?

Politicians. Kick them, kick them twice, and then kicik them again. And when they still dare to move after that: kick them until the sun sets on the very same day - just one year later. :dead:

[JALU3]

Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.


German Shipowner Paid Ransom to Somali Pirates (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578495,00.html), hope you don't mind eating cat food ;)
I said what I mean. That includes germany.

Germany - that is so schizoid in patrolling the waters there that now we start to reflag our own warships, and raise other national flags onboard when doing this with regard to pirate, and flag other national flags onboard when doing that with pirates - just so that we will not do it under a german flag.

Would that be possible in the proud British navy, or the self-confident US Navy? Denyiong your own armed forces, ashaming those serving in them by declaring the temporarily servinf another country instead of Germany?

Politicians. Kick them, kick them twice, and then kicik them again. And when they still dare to move after that: kick them until the sun sets on the very same day - just one year later. :dead:

Is there a pro-defense party that have a wide enough platform that you might be willing to support? Or is the ghost of the Third Reich still scarying many in your country about the honor it is serving their nation while carrying arms? Or is it that they fear the return of an offensively minded nation?

I have meet very few germans that I have come to know, but those that I have have very liberal leanings, but a very healthy respect of those who carry arms, and serve in uniform. Is this a minority?

Doesn't operating under a unifying flag, such as the EU or NATO, provide operational cover for those so opposed to Germany putting its weight behind the will of lawful nations in defending the common SLOCs?

Feel free to call me an ignorant American. Not like I would be the first to be called it. I know we have been on opposite sides of things the few times we have been at it, but any understanding you can provide about the German Public's opinions regarding Germany's anti-piracy efforts would provide an interesting insight.

[diver]

[quote=Max2147]
A carrier from either the USN or an EU country would probably be a valued asset.

A Carrier might be a bit much, maybe a LHA/LHD outfitted in a Sea Control Ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Control_Ship) aircraft load out as the flagship of the present multi-national flotilla. This increases air assets, adds another hull for escort or patrol duties, and provides additional fire power, and ship boarding capability if necessary.

That would fit the bill, but you would want to see more land based MPA aircraft assigned and integrated into the force.

But I don't think a carrier would provide wasted power.

With a USN Carrier or the Charles de Gaulle you would have organic E-2 Hawkeyes, the felxibility of another platform from which to replenish your surface combatants, and the deterrance of fast jets operating over the Area.

If such a resource were to be available I doubt its something the Commanders around the Horn of Africa would turn down.
Though I do realise that is a big assumption with forces stretched as they are.

[gordonmull]

Send an SSN to the area and when the money's handed over and they think they've gotten away with it...BOOOM!!!

[SUBMAN1]

Ships with landing decks + a fleet or helicopters armed with FFAR. Shoot on sight with no early warning. Destroy every pirate boat, no matter type and size, getting identified. Air raids on coastal villages where pirate boats have been observed to operate from, start from, return to. Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.

Piracy will drop drastically within short time.

Never thought I'd hear you say something so violent with all your anti-violence. I'm beginning to think that the only violence that is bad, no matter how in the right it may be in the defense of itself, is American.

-S

[Skybird]

Political and economical sanctions against states paying ransom for their hijacked vessels, isolating them.


German Shipowner Paid Ransom to Somali Pirates (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578495,00.html), hope you don't mind eating cat food ;)
I said what I mean. That includes germany.

Germany - that is so schizoid in patrolling the waters there that now we start to reflag our own warships, and raise other national flags onboard when doing this with regard to pirate, and flag other national flags onboard when doing that with pirates - just so that we will not do it under a german flag.

Would that be possible in the proud British navy, or the self-confident US Navy? Denyiong your own armed forces, ashaming those serving in them by declaring the temporarily servinf another country instead of Germany?

Politicians. Kick them, kick them twice, and then kicik them again. And when they still dare to move after that: kick them until the sun sets on the very same day - just one year later. :dead:

Is there a pro-defense party that have a wide enough platform that you might be willing to support? Or is the ghost of the Third Reich still scarying many in your country about the honor it is serving their nation while carrying arms? Or is it that they fear the return of an offensively minded nation?

I have meet very few germans that I have come to know, but those that I have have very liberal leanings, but a very healthy respect of those who carry arms, and serve in uniform. Is this a minority?

Doesn't operating under a unifying flag, such as the EU or NATO, provide operational cover for those so opposed to Germany putting its weight behind the will of lawful nations in defending the common SLOCs?

Feel free to call me an ignorant American. Not like I would be the first to be called it. I know we have been on opposite sides of things the few times we have been at it, but any understanding you can provide about the German Public's opinions regarding Germany's anti-piracy efforts would provide an interesting insight.

I have no impression formed on how much the public supports the anti-piracy operation. Regarding the flagging thing, it is being raised by politicians, and also owes to an overly complicated legal situation that even is more complicated in Germany - at least so I was told - than international maritime laws already are. the reflagging is not being done due to calls raised from civil groups.

But remember - our leaders also stubbornly evade to call the mission in Afghanistan a war, and martial action. Only once a killed German soldiers has been officially called a soldiers KIA. All others, even if being killed by bombs and fire, were avoided to be described as losses in war.

with the exception of the usual suspects - the Green, the left (we have a party that indeed is called The Left), juvenile anarchists opposing everything, and self-perceiving philantrophists, I would say that the wide public has a much more relaxed relation to German armed forces today than for example 25 y<ears ago, at the end of my school days. whule most are adamant in their opposition to afghanistan, being in uniform usually does not trigger any social alienation or even hostility anymore. That is even more true in cities that have had a long presence of NATO allied contingents (Brits, Dutch) stationed with them, since these troops socially isolated themselves very much from German society, on the other hand members of foreign armed forces use to wear their uniform in public more naturally and more relaxed, it seems to me (but maybe it is just me). German military is very stiff both in verbal tone and public behavior. Compared to that the easiness in behavior of American troops in the berlin brigade - from a German perpsective - was almost provoking! :lol: Brits and Yanks surely are more relaxed regarding these things. I live in close proximity to British military over here, right down my street - at least as long as the garrison is not shut down (planned for). Where an occasional contact took place it - what happened time and again -, it was very relaxed. I found it easy to handle them, i like them. that they were military and sometimes in uniform never was anythign you spend a thought on. but german soldiers in uniform moving freely around - still gets them some gazes in their backs. Maybe not unfriendly, but not perceived as such a normal sight like for example a Dutch officer going home on bicycle (true, you see them a lot here, biking in uniform). For some reason the Dutch always seem to have something to laugh or to smile about. :D

[Jimbuna]

I think any vessel capable of carrying a few Hawkeyes plus supporting air assetts would be better than additional hulls if just for the wider area coverage and far quicker response times.

[Freiwillige]

Come on people its not rocket science. I see this discussion going in two directions.

One is the oh poor pirates, Lets build schools and give them jobs and help them be less impovershed. While were at it we can all sing we are the world and the Communist anthem!:06:

The other is Fire, Fire, Fire, the only reason to stop firing is bacuse the bombs are falling and when they are done we fire some more! Casualty's are the scoreboards of this epic naval struggle. Did some one say Tactical Nukes?:doh:

Just for the voting block, Mark my vote for #2:up:

:arrgh!: :lurk: :ahoy:

[Max2147]

Where are these pro-pirate people in this conversation? I haven't seen them.

A CVBG would solve the pirate problem pretty quickly, but does anybody really think that the US would be willing to deploy a CVBG just to stop a bunch of guys in speedboats?

This is a classic free rider problem. Everybody wants the pirates to be stopped, but nobody's willing to put the time and effort needed into stopping them.