What's up with the armoured Sampans and fishing boats?

[Platapus]

Playing 1.5 + RFB

Picked up a small convoy and ran the plot. Upon interception found out it was a very small convoy

1 Fishing boat
1 sampan

Well I was pretty pissed that I spent all that time plotting that I decided to "let off a little steam" and sink em.

Little did I know the Japanese had armoured Sampans and Fishing Boats.

Moved within 500 meters and used the 20mm. A lot of 20mm!.. Right at the waterline. Now I have some experience with ordnance. I am not buyin that a wooden Sampan could withstand that many 20mm rounds and not sink. What get's me is that several times I set the Sampan on fire and several times the fire went away. Do Sampan's have Damage Control crews???

It took almost all my 20mm rounds (fore and aft) and a bunch of my deck gun rounds to sink a wooden boat. The fishing boat was a bear too.

I missed a few times with the deck gun but most of my rounds were right at or just below the water line and these stupid boats took way too long to sink.
:damn: :damn:

(phew) rant over.

Serious questions.

1. Does the game (1.5+ RFB) model 20mm damage against surface ships? Was I wasting my time and ammo using 20mm against fishing boats? [Given the amount of ammo used and the insignificant tonnage I think the answer is yes]

2. I am assuming that fire is still just eye candy and does not reflect actual damage nor does fire indicate continued damage.

3. Is there a scaling problem with the 1.5/RFB damage model that makes very small boats harder to sink than "normal" sized merchants?

[tater]

Fire in SH4 is a visual effect only, no progressive fires.

As for damage, some of those critters survived a huge beating without sinking in RL. Reading patrol reports I've seen them attacked with hundreds of rounds of .50 cal, plus a dozen 3", then be described in the PR not as "sunk" but "wrecked."

They used to close them and light them on fire instead of sinking them sometimes, and just burn them down.

In the stock game, you'd hit them and they'd explode. Was sort of silly.

tater

[LukeFF]

My favorite example of how tough sampans could be in reality. From the 11th war patrol of the Pollack, 30 July 1944:

1222: Lat. 6d.-05'N; Long. 153d.-27.5'E - periscope sighted object which appeared to be a small sailboat.

1300: Closed object with 20mm. guns manned and 4" gun crew standing by in the conning tower. Determined object to be partly sunk and abandoned sampan of about 10 tons. Closed to 500 yards and fired 180 rounds of 20mm. and 60 rounds of 45 cal. (Thompson Sub Machine Gun) for indoctrination and training purposes. Backed clear, made another run and fired 5 rounds of 4"-50 cal. for same purpose. Results:~ One bird of Nipponese leanings definitely sunk; six more thoroughly scared; sampan now draws about two feet more water; 4" gun crew abashed because sampan was not blown out of the water.
Like tater said, some of these boats could be very tough. It's part of the reason why there was such a big push to get 40mm guns mounted, because they were far more effective than 20mm guns.

[jazzabilly]

It's the Kevlar-coated wood. Real space-age stuff.

Don't see the same thing with me ~ running RFB (latest ver.) and they usually go down with 3 or so rds deck gun regardless of calibre (at the waterline). Personally, in stock I would have expected a mushroom-cloud sized fireball when sinking a sampan.

[Starforce2]

I've sunk them with 40's. Stock. Finishingboats, aim for the pilot house, one armor round from the deck gun, sometimes 2, and booom..obviously it was smuggling ordinance. FOTRS the machine gun has no effect, but it's only a 20. I've I am low on ammo I will just run it over. No credit, but it's fun to watch. Your sub hits in and the boat just falls right over, or rear end one and it does the pirates of the caribean and goes down nose first like the dutchman.

[AngronIsAngry]

Just tried it; Stock 1.4 + NSM4 classic, Fishing Boats & Sampans vs a sub mounted dual 20mm. A magazine later, the boats were done.

[tater]

From some Pickerel PR stuff:

She attacked 2 sampans, and left them "in sinking condition."

Rounds expended?

45 rounds 3"

900 rounds .30 cal

300 rounds .50 cal

720 rounds 20mm.

[NEON DEON]

Did in by 50 caliber machine gun from the SS168 Nautilus:

"Attack No. 2 39-47 N 142-40 E

Sight 200 ton sampan at 2329 K on September 25, 1942 and manned 50
caliber machine gun. Commenced firing at about 2000 yards using armor
piercing ammunition for 150 rounds. Subsequent ammunition was a special
belt of tracer, ball, incendiary, and armor piercing. Closed range to
200 yards by 0000, September 26, 1942, and strafed entire length of
sampan. At 0015, sampan burst into flames. Observed to sink at 0055."

50 caliber! :D






Fluckey's encounter with a large sampan:



"In half an hour, I welcomed Tom back aboard. Nine down, six to go. Backing clear,

we sank her with one 5 inch shell.

These single shots at the waterline from 100 yards saved a lot of ammuntiion."


Excerpt was From the book Thunder Below, page 391 paragraph 7 that was written by Admiral Eugene Fluckey the comander of USS Barb.


:yep: :yep: :yep:

[tater]

There will certainly be huge variation in results. You also have to know what they were actually shooting at.

Technically, anything over 40' wasn't listed by ONI as a "sampan," but might be a "lugger."

I see sampan, and assume it's 20-40 tons. All the ONI "sampans" looks like the small river craft of the same name you are familiar with from movies like Apocalypse Now! It did unfortunately become a generic term, even in regions where no such craft actually existed.

Closing to 100 yards certainly makes it easier though.

[tater]

Tinosa, 18 June, 1944

Time: 2110
Commenced firing on a 400 t. fishing vessel (150' long) with all guns (4"/50, 2x20mm, 2x.50 cal MG) at initial range of 750 yards. High Cap. ammo was used for the 4". 2 4" shots, 1 hit a mast. 20mm and .50 cal ripping it up badly. They secured the light stuff, and moved in close to sink her with the DG.

22 HC shells were fired, of which only 5 were clearly seen to be hits (inside 500 yards range, closing to 100 yards) due to it being night. In the PR he writes: "... and these did not do the damage we expected of them."

They came along side and burned her with oil-soaked rags, and hand grenades. She didn't sink, she burned to the water line.


22 June, 1944
Time: 1950
Opened fire with all guns on a 50t sampan (75' long). They scored 3 DG hits, and countless 20mm and .50 cal. He said the 3d DG shot was not needed, it was wrecked. None the less, they still closed and burned her with rags, etc. It was not observed to sink, just burn like an inferno.

10 July, 1944
Time:0745
Opened fire on a ~100t. 90' long trawler with 4" DG at initial range of 1650 yards. 2 shots just short skipped into target. 6 shots then missed, and the last shot hit amidships at waterline, just below the stack and target exploded, giving her a 30° list. They left her with a 60° list, presumed (rightfully) sinking.

3 DG hits for a sinking.

Highly variable, and fire was probably the major factor in destroying smaller wooden craft. This is extremely tricky to get in SH4. If you make it so that .50 cal can sink them pretty easily, they'd go down instantly with a DG 100% of the time in 1 shot.

[Starforce2]

probably had to do with cargo too. I heard something about a flustrated uboat commander expending all his torpedo to sink a cargo ship, which refused to sink because it had a hold off of cork? I am not sure if that is urban ledgend or real (would think the torpedo attack would have caused the ship to desintigrate at least) but alot of empty ammo crates vs a hold off of machine guns would make it sink differently. Weather the game has full and empty vessels I don't know..

[tater]

In the case of "sampans" they are small, wooden craft, and in many cases were simply not likely to sink at all, just founder. They would none the less be destroyed, just not taking a fast, one-way trip to the bottom any time soon.

[Sailor Steve]

Back in the SH1 days I once rammed a sampan. Don't know if he was hurt on not, because I promptly sank!:cry: :dead:

[Armistead]

I play TMO163RSRD. One time I attacked a fishing boat, out of Deck gun shells, just 40 and a 20.

The fishing boat in TMO was armed I guess with a 20. I got a few "were under attack" messages", but wanted to see if I could blow it up. I used all my ammo both guns.

Then the next thing I know, I'm taking massive damage. The fishing boat has been shooting at me as long as I was him. I couldn't believe I had almost 90% damage from a fishing boat. Thought I would be the first in the history of the game to be sunk by a fishing boat.

Like others said, the things were hard to sink. Many time the rounds just went into
tons of stored fish. Many Captains would shoot em to pieces, pull up and pour fuel on them.

[Angel4532]

I know this thread is old, but I have the same issue. 20 MM blow aircraft out of the air, but with sampans, junks, or fishing boats I only get ricochet noises.

What is up with that?