Compassionate Fascism?

[Col Frost]

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.
This got me thinking, why don't I try a new career and only sink Military targets?
The thrill of sinking a destroyer is anyway much more fulfilling for me than a merchant, as it's a kill or be killed situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the renown for sinking some of the larger Battleships etc should be more than enough to progress in my career.
I guess the problems will begin to mount as the war continue's and the detection capabilities of the ASW units increases rapidly.
Personally I blame the realism of GWX3.0, which along with the fantastic radio pack by Olsen (i think), along with the lifeboat/ debris mod has increased my immersion no end.
I seem to remember that some U-boat commanders did this at the start of the war, but the practice soon stopped (again correct me if I'm wrong).
Somehow I don't think BDU will approve...:timeout:

[A Very Super Market]

Donitz is displeased by your... opinions. :stare:

Anyways, you can do whatever you want, but I think its a lot harder to sink warships than merchants. And you generally won't find task forces, so you'll have to pot shot patrolling destroyers.

[joegrundman]

Besides, if you are troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships and bombing civilians, i advise you to stop doing it.

Instead just pretend to do it in a computer game:D

[Lt.Fillipidis]

Actually, the historical losses of Merchant ships was much less than you think.
Usually, if the steamer's cargo wasnt explosive (Ammo or anything else than could explode violently) the crew had enough time to abandon ship in the life boats.
Most casualties in merchant ships occured in the direct impact when a seaman was near the epicenter of the impact, when something blew up or when the ship sank rapidly.

[Torplexed]

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.
I'd be troubled by the dilemma if it involved actual civilians. If it troubles you too much just think of them as robot ships with a crew of mindless mechanical cyborgs which is much closer to the reality any computer game generates for you. In the end it's just a 3-D set full of 3-D objects pretending to represent a difficult period in history and probably missing the mark by 99% when you consider all the myriad human and natural factors involved.

To take this sort of dilemma to the extreme you would also have to abstain from Chess. After all, those cannon fodder pawns in the front rank represent the poor down-trodden peasant serfs who have no say in how their lives are thrown away by the nobility one rank behind them. ;)

[Otto Heinzmeir]

As much as we talk about 100% realism. I am glad its not 100% real. Because I would truly suck as a u-boat commander. Computer games are nice and neat. No salty sea spray, chilling winds, oil, blood or stale air. Plus if I get tired of getting depth charged I can save and play later.

My take is I wouldn't take sinking the merchants too seriously. I used to feel wrong when I was leading miniature Civil war battalions into slaughter. No matter what side 'won' a battle it was pretty horrific as far as casualties. But it's just a historical re-inactment. If we see things in a proper light we can honor the memory of those that sacrificed so much by gaining a better understanding of the hardships and extrodinary circumstances they went through.

[Kapt Z]

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.


In addition to what everyone else has said......

Remember, these merchant ships are carrying tons and tons of WAR material. To me sinking a merchant ship loaded down with Sherman tanks, shells, P-38s....etc. is akin to bombing a munitions factory not a grammar school. The crews of those merchant ships are not strictly military, but they're not innocent civilians either. They know the risk they are taking and would ram or blast your U-boat out of the water without a second thought given the chance.

But, hey it's just a game anyway!:03:

[casey.phobic]

with GWX, i'm getting a lot of "picked up survivors at X" messages. I think that loss of human life was minimized as far as it could be given that it was a wartime situation. I myself am a merchant sailor and I think about this a lot while I play the game as well as when I'm at sea. I'm thankful that I don't have to deal with u-boats hunting me but at the same time, I know I would still honor my oath if I were put into a wartime situation, (if I were defending the constitution.) However, part of that oath is to obey lawful orders given to you by the Captain or any other superior rank. I just hope to be ashore when WWIII hits. I doubt there will be just cause for all-out war anytime soon. :)

[GoldenRivet]

You have to put yorself in the shoes of a true german sub commander.

Your stationed in France or Italy, away from your family in Berlin, Bonn, Or Bremen. But you know that every day enemy bombers are pounding your home town. You also know that the fuel, parts, bombs, bullets, oil, and personnel that keeps the enemy planes in the sky is flowing into Britain on any tramp steamer that will stay afloat.

For you the choice is simple. You don't care who the sailors are... Nor do you care if they are "soldiers" or not... The one thing you know is that your wife and children are having to seek shelter from falling bombs and the only real thing you can do about it is seek out the enemy supply ships and sink them.

You comfort yourself in the thought that maybe the ship you just sunk contained the very bomb which was destined to fall on your house back in Bremen.

[BasilY]

I've recently become more uneasy and somehat troubled by the moral dilemma of sinking merchant ships, much like the area bombing of civilians during the war by both sides, which I believe was a mistake and also wasted huge numbers of (especially) allied airmen, for limited results.
This got me thinking, why don't I try a new career and only sink Military targets?
The thrill of sinking a destroyer is anyway much more fulfilling for me than a merchant, as it's a kill or be killed situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the renown for sinking some of the larger Battleships etc should be more than enough to progress in my career.
I guess the problems will begin to mount as the war continue's and the detection capabilities of the ASW units increases rapidly.
Personally I blame the realism of GWX3.0, which along with the fantastic radio pack by Olsen (i think), along with the lifeboat/ debris mod has increased my immersion no end.
I seem to remember that some U-boat commanders did this at the start of the war, but the practice soon stopped (again correct me if I'm wrong).
Somehow I don't think BDU will approve...:timeout:

Maybe you should try this,

- Linger outside of major naval bases, try to infiltrate whenever possible
- Patrol known task force lanes, (Scapa <-> Hebrides), (Norfolk <-> Panama)
- Hang around your own task forces (say bismarck)
- Do NOT engage merchant ships (it's beneath your chivalry)
- If you do engage merchant ships, use no more than 1 torpedo, you should save your torpedo for major surface ships.

In fact, someone already try this exact list on a massive scale, the Japanese submarine force. And you must remember the fear they instilled into the hearts of every allied merchant seaman, the countless allied naval resources diverted to defend against them every where, the spectacular success they enjoyed...

I think not.

[Col Frost]

It's very interesting to hear everyone's comments.
Of course it's only a game ( I must confess I do like to occasionally machine gun the lifeboats for a bit of fun). But having played it for however many hundreds of hours, I can't help but examine the motivation of the various people involved, and compare them to my own moral compass. Does the end result justify any means to achieve it? I'm always impressed by the war in North Africa, very few civilans killed, prisoners treated well by both sides etc.
But total war was just that I suppose, a clash of idealism that left no room for sentimentality. To bring Britain to her knees required the strangulation of her supplies from abroad, and that involved sinking merchants.
Sod it, line up that merchent fritz, she'd going to the bottom...:salute:

[Jimbuna]

SINK EM ALL!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Dread Knot]

I'm always impressed by the war in North Africa, very few civilans killed, prisoners treated well by both sides.

The war in North Africa probably seems clean because it was mostly fought in a barren void where the environment was as great a foe as the opposing side. No great body of civilians to get in the line of fire between the armies. The Western Desert between Libya and Egypt where the principal fighting took place was at home at the time to only a tiny population of Arabs and nomadic Bedouins who stayed aloof from the fighting and were indifferent in the who victor was. Consequently, It didn't have the ugly idealogical or racial bent of the war in Europe or the Pacific. It's possible things might have been different had the Axis reached one of the great cities of the Middle East with their large Jewish populations

[goggles]

sometimes its hard not to feel sorry for them especially with lifeboat mods and such

i sank hms nelson earlier today with massive loss of life only 20 or so survivors out of a crew of about 1500:o

[GoldenRivet]

sometimes its hard not to feel sorry for them especially with lifeboat mods and such

i sank hms nelson earlier today with massive loss of life only 20 or so survivors out of a crew of about 1500:o

Think of how many made it off the HMS Hood. :nope:





3 men..... of 1,418

[kenijaru]

Fascism? NEIN!!! *raises right arm... but tries to put it down with the left arm, fighting it, as if the right arm had a mind of his own)

Mein Fuhrër, the loss of... I'm sorry, Mister President, the loss of life cannot be avoided during an armed conflict of these proportions... if those who join the merchant navy aren't aware of that, it's their government's fault.

[A Very Super Market]

Five billion points for a such an awesome post.

[GoldenRivet]

bunch of preverts... up to your preversions. :03:

[kenijaru]

Five billion points for a such an awesome post.
I'm under the impression someone liked Dr. Strangelove... :|\\

[Freiwillige]

What about the armed merchants? Do you feel sorry for them? They are after all combatants.

I look at it this way, Im there to kill the vessal and the cargo. They have life boats
and they should be smart enough to have provisions and maps in their lifeboats.

And since they are knowingly hauling war supplies they are no more innocent than the guy that fuels up the bombers or loads the artillery shells onto a battleship. Sure they may not be dirrectly contributing but the sure and the heck are indirectly. War is ugly and only women and children are innocent and not even all of them at that! So think no more about it Kaleun. Politics are for politicians, War strategy is for the General Staff. Our duty is simple, to sink ships! I do it as humanely as possible but I will do it none the less. Torpedo Los!:salute:

[Col Frost]

What about the armed merchants? Do you feel sorry for them? They are after all combatants.

I look at it this way, Im there to kill the vessal and the cargo. They have life boats
and they should be smart enough to have provisions and maps in their lifeboats.

And since they are knowingly hauling war supplies they are no more innocent than the guy that fuels up the bombers or loads the artillery shells onto a battleship. Sure they may not be dirrectly contributing but the sure and the heck are indirectly. War is ugly and only women and children are innocent and not even all of them at that! So think no more about it Kaleun. Politics are for politicians, War strategy is for the General Staff. Our duty is simple, to sink ships! I do it as humanely as possible but I will do it none the less. Torpedo Los!:salute:
Well spoken Kamerad, you (and the snapps) have made up my mind, politics should be left to the politicians, let us be about our business...:arrgh!:

[mookiemookie]

Well spoken Kamerad, you (and the snapps) have made up my mind, politics should be left to the politicians, let us be about our business...:arrgh!:

Doenitz said it best in Order 154:

Paragraph (e). Do not pick up survivors and take them with you. Do not worry about the merchant-ship's boats. Weather conditions and distance from land play no part. Have a care only for your own ship and strive only to attain your next success as soon as possible. We must be harsh in this war. The enemy began the war in order to destroy us, so nothing else matters.
Again in the Laconia Order:

Stay firm. Remember that the enemy has no regard for women and children when bombing German cities!

[Freiwillige]

Yes herr Frost, May your next patrol be blessed with much tonnage.:salute:

After all we are the Grey Wolves of the atlantic not the international red cross!:up:

[GoldenRivet]

No enemy sailor comes aboard my boat. I am not out at sea on a rescue mission.

I have strict orders not to take on survivors or aide the enemy.

I am however a gentleman - i would disperse what water i can spare and direct them toward the nearest land if possible... but my commitment to them as a fellow human being ends there.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

@ Mookiemookie
Adding a side note to that, there ARE incidents that the uboat commanders picked up men swimming in the water to drop them off to lifeboats.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/2449.html

There are also incidents that they even given food and water to the people in the lifeboats. (Unfortunatelly i cant provide the link cause i cant remember the names of the ships/commanders they were part of such incidents.)

[Jimbuna]

To be fair and balanced it should also be noted that sometimes a Captain or a Chief Engineer were taken prisoner and the remainder of the crew were left to fend for themselves.

[mookiemookie]

@ Mookiemookie
Adding a side note to that, there ARE incidents that the uboat commanders picked up men swimming in the water to drop them off to lifeboats.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/2449.html

There are also incidents that they even given food and water to the people in the lifeboats. (Unfortunatelly i cant provide the link cause i cant remember the names of the ships/commanders they were part of such incidents.)

Absolutely, and I don't dispute that fact. I was just trying to give the OP a little u-boatwaffen pep talk. :yeah:

Those orders I mentioned were the basis for the whole allied prosecution of Doenitz at Nuremburg after the war, incidentally. They earned the grossadmiral a luxurious 10 year vacation at the lovely Spandau Prison.