Traders blast the presidents plans

[SteamWake]

Tell it like it is brother...
The groundswell gathers strength.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853

[AVGWarhawk]

He is fired up, no? It does not matter. Those that are in foreclosure will get help. Bills paid and reduced mortgage. Those that are not behind in their mortgage get to pay for it and receive nothing.

[Rockstar]

Bring it on gents

[Enigma]

groundswell?!? :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

groundswell?!? :hmmm:

Yes groundswell my liberal leaning friend.

You just wait and see. The american people are a little slow on the uptake.

People are beginning to wake up to the fact that those whom did the right thing and actually take a mortgage they could afford, and make their payments are being screwed royally. People whose property taxes balloned on the property value only to see their value go down but not their taxes.

Of course there are those whom will intentionally take advantage of the system screw the forthright taxpaying citizens and praise the Obama administration for the fine job there doing. But eventually the truth will catch up with them.

[AVGWarhawk]

Come on Stream, you know the "victim" card will be used here because of the "shady" loans offered. You know, the fat contract laid before you to read before you sign. The exact same ones ignored and signed anyway. Then the credit card offers start coming in the mail because you got a fat loan for a house and now credit worthy. These are filled out and ran to the max. Then they refinance to the hilt to pay of all the crap they amassed and can not pay for. Now there is no refinancing on a house that is worth far less than what the refinanced it for. Come on, it is not their fault. Surely it is someone else fault they got this way:wah:. Someone needs to pay for the trips to Disneyland, the 2 SUV, John Deere riding lawn mower, the 30 foot sailing sloop, the inground pool, the hot tub and the half a million dollar loan that was all generated on living off refinancing a house upteen times:down: We will just wipe the slate clean and can start fresh with everything paid for with exception of the half a million dollar home that will now have a brand new loan at -4% and costs about $400.00/month. While the rest of us who bought wisely and within our means can stay in our current loans on the same loan value we purchased the property for and spend the rest of our time watching Johnny homeowner in his half a million dollar house go sailing on his now paid for sailing sloop. :up: I'm lov'in it at McDonalds. :D

[SteamWake]

Come on Stream, you know the "victim" card will be used here because of the "shady" loans offered. You know, the fat contract laid before you to read before you sign. The exact same ones ignored and signed anyway. Then the credit card offers start coming in the mail and these are filled out and ran to the max. Then they refinance to the hilt to pay of all the crap they amassed and can not pay for. Now there is no refinancing on a house that is worth far less than what the refinanced it for. Come on, it is not their fault. Surely it is someone else fault they got this way:wah:. Someone needs to pay for the trips to Disneyland, the 2 SUV, John Deere riding lawn mower, the 30 foot sailing sloop, the inground pool, the hot tub and the half a million dollar loan that was all generated on living off refinancing a house upteen times:down: We will just wipe the slate clean and can start fresh with everything paid for with exception of the half a million dollar home that will now have a brand new loan at -4% and costs about $400.00/month. While the rest of us who bought wisely and within our means can stay in our current loans on the same loan value we purchased the property for and spend the rest of our time watching Johnny homeowner in his half a million dollar house go sailing on his now paid for sailing sloop. :up: I'm lov'in it at McDonalds. :D

All true to a degree although perhaps embellished a bit. The problem is that the general public at large do not realize this. If they did... and they will... the uproar will begin.

I find it hard to believe that the grifters make up the majority of US citizens.

[nikimcbee]

Tell it like it is brother...
The groundswell gathers strength.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853

Steamwake, your....attitude had been noted. :nope: It is against the konstitution to question the Our Beloved Messiah, Barrack Obama, paise be to His Name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecDxMQcsLg

Steamwake, you're not singing loud enough!:x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbECxnd5ZA4

[nikimcbee]

Obama thought po-lice, drive by AVG, also taking notes....:06:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwlzHGTlIUk&feature=related

[Sea Demon]

Again, this is simply rewarding failure and undesirable behavior. Obama wants you to pay for your irresponsible neighbors mortgage. Disgusting. At this point, why should anybody pay their mortgage? Seriously. The market traders are openly mocking the Obama administration today. They understand what all this will lead to.

Anybody listen to Hussein Obama yesterday? In case you didn't, Obama spoke of governmental intervention to adjust rates and lending practices in the housing sector. This guy is an incompetent wreck. He doesn't even know that this is what caused the ruckus in the first place. Look at the circus this new administration is putting us into. And not even in for a month yet.

[nikimcbee]

Steamwake detained and interrogated...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6raF7kcJJs&feature=related

[AVGWarhawk]

Come on Stream, you know the "victim" card will be used here because of the "shady" loans offered. You know, the fat contract laid before you to read before you sign. The exact same ones ignored and signed anyway. Then the credit card offers start coming in the mail and these are filled out and ran to the max. Then they refinance to the hilt to pay of all the crap they amassed and can not pay for. Now there is no refinancing on a house that is worth far less than what the refinanced it for. Come on, it is not their fault. Surely it is someone else fault they got this way:wah:. Someone needs to pay for the trips to Disneyland, the 2 SUV, John Deere riding lawn mower, the 30 foot sailing sloop, the inground pool, the hot tub and the half a million dollar loan that was all generated on living off refinancing a house upteen times:down: We will just wipe the slate clean and can start fresh with everything paid for with exception of the half a million dollar home that will now have a brand new loan at -4% and costs about $400.00/month. While the rest of us who bought wisely and within our means can stay in our current loans on the same loan value we purchased the property for and spend the rest of our time watching Johnny homeowner in his half a million dollar house go sailing on his now paid for sailing sloop. :up: I'm lov'in it at McDonalds. :D
All true to a degree although perhaps embellished a bit. The problem is that the general public at large do not realize this. If they did... and they will... the uproar will begin.

I find it hard to believe that the grifters make up the majority of US citizens.
Not really embellished that much. A majority got in over their heads because a credit line was established upon getting the loan for the house. Credit cards obtained, vehicle loans handed out. Eventually, there is more money needing to go out then coming in. I have been there and done that 15 years ago. Learned my lesson real quick. I do not have any credit cards and currently have one car payment. My house mortgage is up to date. I live within my means. For a majority it was spending on credit that has gotten out of control. If these folks could not afford the loans on the ARM as the interest crept up, they should have refinanced to a 30 year fix long before the got into real trouble. For most, this did not happen overnight. It has gone on for years and it has finally come to a pimple.

Not looking to make arguments here, just stating what I have experienced with my own finances and what one family member is experience right now....exactly what I have state above. Spending like it is going out of style and doing it all on credit/refinancing upteen times.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tell it like it is brother...
The groundswell gathers strength.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Steamwake, your....attitude had been noted. :nope: It is against the konstitution to question the Our Beloved Messiah, Barrack Obama, paise be to His Name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecDxMQcsLg

Steamwake, you're not singing loud enough!:x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbECxnd5ZA4

You got your own problems. Beer is what, $80.00 for a case now in your state?:har: They got real problems when they start mess'in with a man's beer. :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Again, this is simply rewarding failure and undesirable behavior. Obama wants you to pay for your irresponsible neighbors mortgage. Disgusting. At this point, why should anybody pay their mortgage? Seriously. The market traders are openly mocking the Obama administration today. They understand what all this will lead to.

Anybody listen to Hussein Obama yesterday? In case you didn't, Obama spoke of governmental intervention to adjust rates and lending practices in the housing sector. This guy is an incompetent wreck. He doesn't even know that this is what caused the ruckus in the first place. Look at the circus this new administration is putting us into. And not even in for a month yet.

Bring in the cloooowwwwnnns.....bring in the clooowwwns.:har:

Sadly, I would say a majority that do get bailed out will right back in the same boat in 5 months.

[nikimcbee]

God, himself has spoken to the Messiah Obama and revealed his plan...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUV2QTXIW1U&feature=related

[Enigma]

Yes groundswell my liberal leaning friend.


PRINCETON, NJ -- The American public gives President Barack Obama a strong 67% approval rating for the way in which he is handling the government's efforts to pass an economic stimulus bill, while the Democrats and, in particular, the Republicans in Congress receive much lower approval ratings of 48% and 31%, respectively. - Gallup
But, alas, Americans are slow on the uptake. You are smarter than them. You, and the maniacal ranting Sea Demon, etc are smarter than the rest of us.

The problem as I see it, and yes, I'm a liberal, and proud of it, especially in the ugly face of those who hate me for it, is this huge misconception on the part of the few names (read above) who seem to think Liberals are all thrilled to death about the Stimulus and think it's an answer to our prayers. Any reasonable person would realize that isn't true, but most liberals favor it over the Republican senators/governors grandstanding and doing nothing, all while happily accepting the money they get from the stimulus anyway. (With a notable 22 republican governors, you know the guys that actually get the money, who support it.) hell, the President HIMSELF repeatedly says it's not the answer to our prayers and won't fix everything, and he says it often.
Being a heavily right wing environment around here, you guys make your own minds up about what liberals think, because the reality is, you really don't give a ****.

There's lots of name calling in this thread already, lots of nonsense about "the messiah" and all this other crap that no reasonable person believes but gets repeated to the point of nausea, lots of hate filled ranting, and not one reasonable point. It's the sad truth. Lots of bitter tears from beat up republicans.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt said it best...


Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred.
Me too. :yep:

..And

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2009/02/19/mortgage_bad_behavior/

[AVGWarhawk]

@Enigma
So, what is a reasonable point:06: Those that did not get caught up in living on credit are to pay for those that did. That is the point. This money could be going to infrastructure projects, schools, medical. Exactly what Obama wants to do. But, no, this money is going to people who spent beyond their means. Does this in any way, shape or form seem right? Does it seem fair? Should these people in foreclosure be left to burden what they brought on themselves? What is your answer to this? I'm not interested in a liberal, republican or the stimulus. This housing issue is above the 7+ billion dollar bail out. Let just say, hey Enigma, we need you to give your neighbor $100.00/month (just as a figure) to save his home. When can you start cutting the checks? What would you do in a situation like this? Nothing hateful here. I'm just wondering what you think should be done with your $100.00 a month. :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

Dont overlook the fact that the bill was not written by BO hell I dont even know if he has read it.

No, Pelosi is at the help of this Titanic.

[Sea Demon]

@Enigma
So, what is a reasonable point:06: Those that did not get caught up in living on credit are to pay for those that did. That is the point. This money could be going to infrastructure projects, schools, medical. Exactly what Obama wants to do. But, no, this money is going to people who spent beyond their means. Does this in any way, shape or form seem right? Does it seem fair? Should these people in foreclosure be left to burden what they brought on themselves? What is your answer to this? I'm not interested in a liberal, republican or the stimulus. This housing issue is above the 7+ billion dollar bail out. Let just say, hey Enigma, we need you to give your neighbor $100.00/month (just as a figure) to save his home. When can you start cutting the checks? What would you do in a situation like this? Nothing hateful here. I'm just wondering what you think should be done with your $100.00 a month. :hmmm:
Yes, it's clear Democrat drones support the welfare state at the expense of individual freedom and economic liberty. They have no idea what grows an economy, and what keeps a workforce viable. They don't understand inflation, and have no idea what disposable income is.

Obama, Pelosi, and others up there in DC are incompetent hacks. Obama himself has never built a business, created jobs, or run any organization from an executive level. Yet the idiots elected him to recover a national economy. :doh: And he's proving he has no idea how to grow this economy. He's also proving his general incompetence on these matters every single day. His ideas, and those of his Democrat Congress hacks, have not provided any incentive for people to expand their business operations or take any capital risks. That's the problem here. These people don't have a clue. And they will pay politically in the future. That's becoming quite certain to anybody but a Demobot.

[vtccgolf]

If I were forced to give my neighbor $100 a month to save his house, he WILL have to start picking up his dog's crap that magically makes its way into my yard. :stare: Oh, he WILL also immediately stop listening to that crap he calls music, particularly quite loud each time I try to put my boys down to sleep. Oh, maybe his wife could also learn how to cook...I find quite a many McDonald's bag next to the dog crap. He would also be required to purchase Dave Ramsey's "Total Money Makeover." And that is just for starters...

Oh, its not "fair" for me to tell my neighbors what to do despite my required contribution in rewarding their bad behavior? Yeah, and neither is making me pay for his mistakes either :down: .

@ Enigma: If many Liberals thought that this stimulus was not the best, then why did very few if any actually say anything to stop it? Oh, the ole we have to do something over nothing bit. If a guy threatened to stab you or shoot you, which would you choose? Me...I would shoot the other bastard dead. And I would have demanded that this bill be stopped. From what I can tell, it was hatched in Pelosi's mind, and every Liberal just went along for the ride. Republicans grandstanding? Ok, maybe a little. But do you not think it is absolutely horrible that not one damn Representative or Senator read this bill? I bet Obama hasn't even read it all. We were told that this bill must pass if we want to stop the end of the world it seemed, and yet Obama waiting until Tuesday to sign it. I am sure Valentine's Day is not as important as saving our nation. And while this bill sat on the shelf over the weekend, some Dems went on a trip to Italy? Wiskey Tango Foxtrot! What happened to the bill being made available to the American public for five days? Oh, yeah...I forgot. This bill was too important to wait.

Let me pull this from my post over on the stimulus thread. Ole TJ said it best!

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson

Oh, another good one, particularly for those of us that actually drive real subs for our day job.

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world." - Thomas Jefferson

If Liberals don't want me to tell two gay men they cannot be married, then this Libertarian doesn't want Liberals telling me how to be "patriotic." Oh, it's easy to know exactly what a Liberal is when Joe Biden opens his mouth. Engima, you may disagree with that, but perception is reality. It's time for America to stand up to this crap in DC...regardless if it is your party or the other guy responsible for it.

[UnderseaLcpl]

But, alas, Americans are slow on the uptake. You are smarter than them. You, and the maniacal ranting Sea Demon, etc are smarter than the rest of us.

But not so smart that they claim to know how to redistribute other people's wealth.

Being a heavily right wing environment around here, you guys make your own minds up about what liberals think, because the reality is, you really don't give a ****.


So say what you really think. Be detailed about it. I've had a difficult time deciphering your position from your all-emoticon posts.
We may disagree, and even argue, but so what? Its' fun and maybe we'll learn something.

There's lots of name calling in this thread already, lots of nonsense about "the messiah" and all this other crap that no reasonable person believes but gets repeated to the point of nausea, lots of hate filled ranting, and not one reasonable point. It's the sad truth. Lots of bitter tears from beat up republicans.

A surge of Democratic support for Obama and the enthusiasm for his campaign (as well as his speech delivery methods) causes Conservatives to jokingly refer to him as "the messiah". Then they enjoy pointing out any failures and schortcomings he develops.
So what? We lived with 8 years of Bush-hating. Parties and their supporters do fight and poke fun at each other.



Franklin Delano Roosevelt said it best...


Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred.
Me too. :yep:

I love your choice of persons to quote. :up: Picking a guy who arguably excacerbated the Great Depression and who unquestionably tried to pack the Supreme court, as well as being directly responsible for many of the budget-crushing social programs we have today. Awesome. But even more awesome is that you chose to quote him in a discussion about a man who is now being accused of (and sometimes championed for) many of the same things.
It's so ironic, it's almost sublime.



..And

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2009/02/19/mortgage_bad_behavior/


....And then you post a link, presumably to support your position, but then it turns out to be a link to a liberal rant that proves nothing. The article itself could be the topic of a whole new thread.

If you disagree with the concepts presented in the original link that's fine, but you could be a little more specific as to what you disagree with.
It is a fact that the stimulus bill is very expensive and that it must be payed for with tax money. I don't know what parts you agree or disagree with, but I can only assume that you agree with the principle of it.

You present the example of Republicans not opposing the bill, despite the fact that the entire Republican house opposed it and only thre republican senators supported it. I can't make anything of your claim that 22 Republican governors suported the bill because you post no source.

If you've got something to say, just say it. State your position. Otherwise many conservatives will just assume that you fall into the category of "sheep-like liberal"
(and I'm sure liberals have similar terms for us) and you fail to make any kind of point.

[Enigma]

Boy oh, boy. Where to start? I'm freezing to death out here, and I have about 30 mins. I'll do the best I can, but I'm not going to worry about my spelling and punctuation. Be warned. :haha:

@Enigma
So, what is a reasonable point:06: Those that did not get caught up in living on credit are to pay for those that did. That is the point. This money could be going to infrastructure projects, schools, medical. Exactly what Obama wants to do. But, no, this money is going to people who spent beyond their means. Does this in any way, shape or form seem right? Does it seem fair? Should these people in foreclosure be left to burden what they brought on themselves? What is your answer to this? I'm not interested in a liberal, republican or the stimulus. This housing issue is above the 7+ billion dollar bail out. Let just say, hey Enigma, we need you to give your neighbor $100.00/month (just as a figure) to save his home. When can you start cutting the checks? What would you do in a situation like this? Nothing hateful here. I'm just wondering what you think should be done with your $100.00 a month. :hmmm:
First of all, let me say that me paying for Bob who got himself into a home he couldn't afford doesn't seem the least bit fair.

Now, the focus of Obama's plan is to stabilize home prices, and to slow the destruction of home ownership here at home, a root that which is destroying our economy. It will give millions of people in this country the opportunity to rebuild financially, not all of whom are "losers" and "irresponsible". Many, many hard working responsible people are losing their homes as values depriciate and they find themselves unable to refinance. A 5/1 arm was agreat deal on an affordable home 5 years ago. Today, that same mortgage is worth more than the home is worth due to slumping prices and immediate area forclosure, therefore, that person's loan is now adjusting, and the payment is going up 3, 4, $500 a month. The option to refinance does not exist. Therefore that person ends up defaulting, another foreclosure on the block brings surrounding properties an even lower value, and the dominos continue to tumble. Bringing down the rate of foreclosures is good for the entire country. It's essential at this point if we want to slow or stop the nose dive of our economy.

It is estimated that "6 million families could lose their homes over the next three years in the absence of government action."

Now, Part A) of this plan helps folks who are still current on mortgage payments, but cannot refi because they are upside down in their home,a nd are paying on large interest rates. This is our guy from my example above, before he goes default ont he loan. (an adjusted borrower on a 3/1 or a 5/ ARM) These folks should be the priority, and they are. These are responsible borrowers who should be able to refinance and should not suffer at higher rates because of the tumble of the value of their home. It's win - win.

Part B) provides incentives to lenders to allow people who are in danger of foreclosure to refinance and alter terms to make the payment affordable, because they can't keep up with the current payments. Your question comes into play here. I don't want to pay for people who got a home they shouldn't have/cant afford. I do however, want to help the guy above, who got into a 5/1 with the best of intentions, and is now stuck in an adjusted loan because he is upside down. How we distinguish between the two is unclear as of yet, but I'd certainly be on the side of having a way to do so.

Your question is completly valid. Does the plan compensate for home owners who purcahsed out of their means? Do people who lied about income or assets benefit? It's unclear at this point. Republicans are asking these questions, and I'm grateful that they are. My feeling is that it has to. It absolutly has to. If you entered a loan fraudulantly, you are on your own.

Ramble ramble...to the point: Do I think It's fair that I pay for someones irresponsible mortgage bail out. No. I do think that saving as many homes as we can int his country is absolutyl critical to the economy. Before I was out of a job, I'd see people on a daily basis who had gone into an affordable loan and are now upside down with an adjusting rate, and who will eventually foreclose if they cannot get help. Simply put, the idea that all of this money goes to losers who are in a home they shouldn't be in, it's simply not true. Yes, they exist, in large numbers I'm sure. But the majority of folks losing homes in this country are not getting what they deserve, and you, me, and all of us as a country will be very negativly impacted if we continue to let the foreclosures continue at the rate they are, and do nothing. I hate the idea of paying for dead beats. But I'm on board with the idea of soem of my tax money going towards a program that I beleive will help slow or stop the current nose dive we are experiencing.

Fromt he Salon article I posted:

...It's important to know that there is a clear case to be made for using taxpayer money to reduce the number of foreclosures and help homeowners refinance their mortgages. On the negative side, foreclosures destroy economic value in several ways: transaction costs of foreclosure itself; reduced value of foreclosed houses and impact on houses in the neighborhood; reduced property taxes for local governments; and increased crime due to vacant houses. The death spiral of foreclosure-forced sales, falling house prices, and further foreclosures needs to be broken.


@ Enigma: If many Liberals thought that this stimulus was not the best, then why did very few if any actually say anything to stop it? Oh, the ole we have to do something over nothing bit. If a guy threatened to stab you or shoot you, which would you choose? Me...I would shoot the other bastard dead. And I would have demanded that this bill be stopped.
I congratulate you on possibly the worst analogy I've seen here at Subsim, and that's sayin' sumthin'.
Yes, I prefer doing something over nothing. Ain't that terrible?

From what I can tell, it was hatched in Pelosi's mind, and every Liberal just went along for the ride.
You think Pelosi wrote the Stimulus bill. Mmmkay. Well, no some Dem's voted against it.

If Liberals don't want me to tell two gay men they cannot be married, then this Libertarian doesn't want Liberals telling me how to be "patriotic."
Ok, I have no clue what one has to do with the other, I also don't know where or when you were called unpatriotic. You'll have to fill me in there.....

But not so smart that they claim to know how to redistribute other people's wealth.
Well, thats kind of the point. They are just against things. Theres no solutions or brainstorming going on, just simply against any idea that comes from any democrat at any time.


And then you post a link, presumably to support your position, but then it turns out to be a link to a liberal rant that proves nothing.
I'm a liberal. It's not a dirty word to me. And again, this is the point. My opinion, to many folks here, and to you apparenlty, = "A liberal rant". The article os somebody's opinion, just like the "rant" in the video the OP posted. what's the difference to you?

I can't make anything of your claim that 22 Republican governors suported the bill because you post no source.
...And I regret I mispoke (mistyped?) in my haste. There are 22 Republican governors. I didn't mean they all loved the stimulus. The information I had in mind is here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/us/politics/17repubs.html)

If you've got something to say, just say it. State your position. Otherwise many conservatives will just assume that you fall into the category of "sheep-like liberal"
Honestly, bro, I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference how much sense I do/don't make to a lot of the folks here. They are not interested in debate or conversation or any opinion coming from the mouth of a dirty liberal like me. The word Liberal is thrown around on this forum as if it were the Antichrist, a disgrace, unpatriotic, godless, and not worthy of opinion. And, again, I welcome their hatred. I know plenty of reasonable people who disagree with me. They find no need to hate me as a result. I can't say the same for some of the people here.

Again, sorry for the haste and I'm sure this post will be a giant pot hole filled mess, but It's 32 degrees and I have a horse to round up. :arrgh!:

[UnderseaLcpl]

There are 22 Republican governors. I didn't mean they all loved the stimulus. The information I had in mind is here. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/I%20can%27t%20make%20anything%20of%20your%20claim% 20that%2022%20Republican%20governors%20suported%20 the%20bill%20because%20you%20post%20no%20source.)
Um... that's a link to the Subsim home page. I don't understand how anything there has anything to do with your claim, unless it is a joke, in which case I'm sorry to say that I don'r get it. I assume you got your ctrl-c's and ctrl-v's crossed at some point.

Honestly, bro, I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference how much sense I do/don't make to alot of the folks here. They are not interested in debate or conversation or any opinion coming from the mouth of a dirty liberal like me. The word Liberal is thrown around on this forum as if it were the antichrist, a disgrace, unpatriotic, godless, and not worthy of opinion. And, again, I welcome their hatred.

That's not true. We have lots of different opinions here, of all different types. People from all over the world post here, and I've personally spoken with many that would be classified as liberals in the U.S., and even as socialists, but that doesn't mean we can't have a nice discussion.
NeonSamurai and I just had a very nice discussion about gun control in that Mexican drug cartel thread. If a radical conservative like me can have a civil discussion about American gun control with a Canadian, anything is possible.

Nobody here hates you. There are all kinds of jabs and jokes and snide remarks exchanged, but there's no reason to take them seriously. At best, we all talk and maybe we benefit from each other's perspectives, at worst, we exchange verbal blows and have some fun and life goes on.

It's 32 degrees and I have a horse to round up
I hope he didn't give you much trouble. They can be clever and troublesome bastards sometimes, can't they?

[AVGWarhawk]

Enigma:
First of all, let me say that me paying for Bob who got himself into a home he couldn't afford doesn't seem the least bit fair.

Now, the focus of Obama's plan is to stabilize home prices, and to slow the destruction of home ownership here at home, a root that which is destroying our economy. It will give millions of people in this country the opportunity to rebuild financially, not all of whom are "losers" and "irresponsible". Many, many hard working responsible people are losing their homes as values depriciate and they find themselves unable to refinance. A 5/1 arm was agreat deal on an affordable home 5 years ago. Today, that same mortgage is worth more than the home is worth due to slumping prices and immediate area forclosure, therefore, that person's loan is now adjusting, and the payment is going up 3, 4, $500 a month. The option to refinance does not exist. Therefore that person ends up defaulting, another foreclosure on the block brings surrounding properties an even lower value, and the dominos continue to tumble. Bringing down the rate of foreclosures is good for the entire country. It's essential at this point if we want to slow or stop the nose dive of our economy.

It is estimated that "6 million families could lose their homes over the next three years in the absence of government action."

Now, Part A) of this plan helps folks who are still current on mortgage payments, but cannot refi because they are upside down in their home,a nd are paying on large interest rates. This is our guy from my example above, before he goes default ont he loan. (an adjusted borrower on a 3/1 or a 5/ ARM) These folks should be the priority, and they are. These are responsible borrowers who should be able to refinance and should not suffer at higher rates because of the tumble of the value of their home. It's win - win.

Part B) provides incentives to lenders to allow people who are in danger of foreclosure to refinance and alter terms to make the payment affordable, because they can't keep up with the current payments. Your question comes into play here. I don't want to pay for people who got a home they shouldn't have/cant afford. I do however, want to help the guy above, who got into a 5/1 with the best of intentions, and is now stuck in an adjusted loan because he is upside down. How we distinguish between the two is unclear as of yet, but I'd certainly be on the side of having a way to do so.

Your question is completly valid. Does the plan compensate for home owners who purcahsed out of their means? Do people who lied about income or assets benefit? It's unclear at this point. Republicans are asking these questions, and I'm grateful that they are. My feeling is that it has to. It absolutly has to. If you entered a loan fraudulantly, you are on your own.

Ramble ramble...to the point: Do I think It's fair that I pay for someones irresponsible mortgage bail out. No. I do think that saving as many homes as we can int his country is absolutyl critical to the economy. Before I was out of a job, I'd see people on a daily basis who had gone into an affordable loan and are now upside down with an adjusting rate, and who will eventually foreclose if they cannot get help. Simply put, the idea that all of this money goes to losers who are in a home they shouldn't be in, it's simply not true. Yes, they exist, in large numbers I'm sure. But the majority of folks losing homes in this country are not getting what they deserve, and you, me, and all of us as a country will be very negativly impacted if we continue to let the foreclosures continue at the rate they are, and do nothing. I hate the idea of paying for dead beats. But I'm on board with the idea of soem of my tax money going towards a program that I beleive will help slow or stop the current nose dive we are experiencing.



Yes, it does suck having to bail out Bob. But, speaking from my experience with an ARM loan I received for my first house, I read all that this loan entailed. My real estate agent said not to worry. I would be making more money next year, raises, bonus, etc. Sorry, I do not count on money I do not have. So, I disregarded this notion because she just wanted a sale. Next, reading the contract for sale it stated the interest can go up only once a year and for only a certain percentage. In other words, my interest rate could go up to a maximum of 2%. It is not a free for all at the banks when they can raise this interest rate on my loan. In short, they can turn on the faucet but the home owner does not have to swim in the pool of water. After my first year in the home my monthy mortgage went up $175.00. I did not sit on my duff. I promptly refinanced to a 30 year fixed mortgage. But you say, these people are not allowed to because of the housing slump. That is true today, however 6 months ago this was not the case. Sure, a few might have gotten caught up in the recent slump preventing a refinance but a large majority just went along with the increase in interest probably saying they will look into later. Later came sooner than expected. Sure, some are in a pickle because of job loss. Let me ask you, 6 months ago did we hear of thousands losing their jobs? Not really. Not until banks started fessing up the problems that have been happening over the past two years. The markets went into a nose dive. In short, this did not happen over night. People have been living on their houses never expecting the housing bubble to pop. Just keep on refinancing and refinancing over and above what the house is worth gambling that the home value would grow. As we see, the bubble burst. Most people refinance to get rid of debt on credit cards, vehicles, school loans, etc. This is how it was sold to the general public. Just like the guy in the commerical if you have seen it were he is riding his John Deere mower talking about all his cars, pool, vacations, expensive home, etc and asks,"how do I do it?" "I'm credited up to my neck." Then the commerical talks about refinancing to get rid of all that debt that put him in the hole. It is not always about ARM loans. Even folks with fixed loans are way in over their heads with credit debt. I know quite a few. Not just recently either. Over the past 20 years folks have been crediting themselve into the hole. The only option at that time was bankruptcy or refinancing. That option is now gone as of today.

We really are in a catch 22 Enigma for several reasons. Yes, the housing markets and new construction do run the economy as we see. If people are spending and have the liquidity to spend, they do, however it has been credit spending as of late. Not cash. So, again, it is not ARM loans as the culprit. I first blame the people who got into these loans with blinders on. Did not wake up the very first mortgage statement that increased by hundreds of dollars after completion of the first year of the loan. Remember, ARM loans have rules on what can be done concerning interest increases and when the bank can do it. So, sitting for 12 months after the house mortgage increased doing absolutely nothing (even selling if need be) is pure laziness. I got an inlaw right now who did just that. You know what else. She has not paid a house payment in over 2 years. Every room has a computer and large screen TV. They are taking vacations. Any tax return coming or last years stimulus check they got did not go into catching up on the house. They blew it on junk and vacations. They are living large and it will be all paid for at yours and my expense. So, you can understand why people are bit pissed off. Alas, our nuts are in a vise because if we do not help them the economy continues on it's current path. Here is the next problem. The money is going to banks who asked for bail out. Not all banks got this money and did not need help. So, mortgages in trouble at these banks can offer no help. Home foreclosed. I have read time and time again from people who comment on new articles calling their loan holders and getting turned away. This is not over by a long shot. Furthermore, this will take years to accomplish. Everyone who is in under their head has to go through the process again. Credit worthiness has to be check if such a loan is offered. In other words, can this person carry this loan after it is reduced. That process will take a long time. I think many will disqualified because of other outstanding debt over and above just a mortgage. Again, the credit card living. See, this is a month to month reduction, not a lump sum refinance were one could wipe out credit card debt, car loans, etc. like I did when I refinanced. The more I think about it, even with help in reducing these month to month payments, many will still be screwed. I find it hard to believe the government is going to tackle paying off credit cards. Then again, looking at what is happening, anything is possible. So, it is more than just ARM loans causing this issue. It is the people who ignored the contract, did nothing when the mortgage went up and continued to live on credit over the past 5 years. This seed was planted years ago. The seed has now bloomed and we found out it is stink weed.

Lastly, yes, some good folk who did the right thing have lost their jobs and are faced with foreclosure. Here is the problem and I do feel for them. I had lost 2 jobs in under three months at one time. But, being a bank right now or even the same bank two years ago, when you filled out the credit application they asked your place of employment. If you write, none. Said bank will not approve the loan. So, these folks who approach the banks today after a bail out will ask the same question. Employment? Answer, no. Said bank will not approve the loan. Still screwed. Ok, so we say a moritorium to stop foreclosures on these folks until a job is obtained. Cool. I'm for that. However, I do not support people who have been in the rears for two months or more for the past two years. No sir. They did nothing. Did not work out an additional payment with the lender. Did not sell even at a loss. If these people did not figure it out in two years, they will never figure it out. Case closed. This is were the distinction needs to be made on who gets what.

[vtccgolf]

Ok, so maybe my analogy wasn't the best. But, I have to disagree with you on how opposing this bill by killing it dead is "doing nothing." Another bill could have been offered and honestly discussed. Maybe something free of money for mice and high speed rails. Since I never got the opportunity to read it as promised, I can't tell you how bad it is. I have a feeling it stinks to high heaven since it was crammed through the Congress. I have a strong feeling that time will prove this mess is truly that...a mess. And how many more "stimulus" measures will we need? When the Chinese start indicating that they will not buy our debt, then we have a problem. Sure, we could print money to cover this. I hope you have some carts on hand to hold all the money you will need to by a loaf of bread.

As for Pelosi and her crew writing this bill...yeah, I do think she did. Birth control? STD Research? Money for the rat in her district? Yeah...I am sure she had nothing whatsoever to do with this thing. I know some Dems didn't vote for this bill. Mainly Blue Dog Dems that understand fiscal conservatism. And, I said all Liberals fell in line, not all Dems. Just because you are a Dem doesn't make you a Liberal.

As for my comment on being "patriotic," I really wasn't stating that you, Engima, said anything about it. But, when Joe Biden claims that paying more taxes is patriotic and I resist...what does that make me? Less patriotic? I am not going to sit quietly when our Congress spends like drunken sailors and then goes after me to make up for it (and don't worry, I gave Bush and Company grief about it too). How can anyone that pays taxes be expected to pay more...told to pay their "fair share"... when Congress has no concept of fiscal conservatism! Heck, some in Congress have no concept of the IRS code much less how to live on a budget. I really would like to know what our founders would say about paying a "fair" share. Oh wait, I forgot. They did. (Please reference Thomas Jefferson to start.)

So at least we can agree to disagree? What I want to know is what will be the new argument when this stimulus, TARP, and the mortgage bailout don't work? We are already spending money that we don't have.

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853#

:yeah: :D :salute:

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

Steamwake beat ya to it
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=148365

[SUBMAN1]

Steamwake beat ya to it
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=148365


Lame

[Fr8monkey]

The posting or that someone beat you to it?

[mookiemookie]

Santelli is a Wall Street insider. I don't buy into this populist crap. He had no problem giving $700 billion to Citibank, B of A, et. al.

[PeriscopeDepth]

You guys (for the most part) are breaking the issue down into a left versus right issue that does not exist. The issue that DOES exist is the pervasive corruption of public officials on both sides of the aisle that allowed this crap to continue for so long with a wink and a smile. And we are now perfectly content letting our "professional politicians come to our rescue (with a problem they were instrumental in creating!)" by giving away billions of dollars of OUR money to the people that caused the problem.

FFS, Congress did a better job of regulating steroid use in baseball than it did our financial system. I wonder why?

PD

[Aramike]

You guys (for the most part) are breaking the issue down into a left versus right issue that does not exist. The issue that DOES exist is the pervasive corruption of public officials on both sides of the aisle that allowed this crap to continue for so long with a wink and a smile. And we are now perfectly content letting our "professional politicians come to our rescue (with a problem they were instrumental in creating!)" by giving away billions of dollars of OUR money to the people that caused the problem.

FFS, Congress did a better job of regulating steroid use in baseball than it did our financial system. I wonder why?

PDGreat post! :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Ok, so maybe my analogy wasn't the best. But, I have to disagree with you on how opposing this bill by killing it dead is "doing nothing." Another bill could have been offered and honestly discussed. Maybe something free of money for mice and high speed rails. Since I never got the opportunity to read it as promised, I can't tell you how bad it is. I have a feeling it stinks to high heaven since it was crammed through the Congress. I have a strong feeling that time will prove this mess is truly that...a mess. And how many more "stimulus" measures will we need? When the Chinese start indicating that they will not buy our debt, then we have a problem. Sure, we could print money to cover this. I hope you have some carts on hand to hold all the money you will need to by a loaf of bread.

As for Pelosi and her crew writing this bill...yeah, I do think she did. Birth control? STD Research? Money for the rat in her district? Yeah...I am sure she had nothing whatsoever to do with this thing. I know some Dems didn't vote for this bill. Mainly Blue Dog Dems that understand fiscal conservatism. And, I said all Liberals fell in line, not all Dems. Just because you are a Dem doesn't make you a Liberal.

As for my comment on being "patriotic," I really wasn't stating that you, Engima, said anything about it. But, when Joe Biden claims that paying more taxes is patriotic and I resist...what does that make me? Less patriotic? I am not going to sit quietly when our Congress spends like drunken sailors and then goes after me to make up for it (and don't worry, I gave Bush and Company grief about it too). How can anyone that pays taxes be expected to pay more...told to pay their "fair share"... when Congress has no concept of fiscal conservatism! Heck, some in Congress have no concept of the IRS code much less how to live on a budget. I really would like to know what our founders would say about paying a "fair" share. Oh wait, I forgot. They did. (Please reference Thomas Jefferson to start.)

So at least we can agree to disagree? What I want to know is what will be the new argument when this stimulus, TARP, and the mortgage bailout don't work? We are already spending money that we don't have.

I agree with you 100% on your post here. This was really not a disgreement. Just a discussion on TARP, Stimulus, Mortgage bailout. All of this is wonderful but it is being haphazardly done. There is no oversight. Case and point. The first TARP dealt out, the banks have no idea nor Congress where the money went. WTH? You know what happened with the first TARP installment? The banks that got it went an purchased other banks! None of the money was loaned to anyone. It is sad really this went on and no one watch or gave a damn. My mortgage company, Washington Mutual, was purchased by JP Morgan. JP Morgan is now and still on the rocks. It is a joke and you will notice....no one in DC is pressuring these banks into answering were the money went. It is embarrassing and well, Bush is not around to blame this one on. Anyway, each home that is in trouble needs to be looked at on an individual basis. Guidelines to qualify need to be established before approval. You know, HUD did this many years ago. One person in trouble with the mortgage could apply to HUD. If approved by the guidelines, HUD would assume your loan for up to a year. The payment were reduced so the home owner could carry the house. In the mean time, the home owner need to pay off bills and get stable financially. At the end of that time alloted, HUD would sell you loan off to a regular bank and the original payments would resume. Nothing showing on your credit report or anything. It was a great program and could work again. I think uncle Sam is attempting to work a program like this again. I have no issue with this program with exceptions of course. These guidelines need to stringent. No bums or near-do-wells looking to start the cycle again. If financial stablitiy does not look to be promising or said individual is a repeat offender with credit cards going defunct, no help is offered.

[Frame57]

Tell it like it is brother...
The groundswell gathers strength.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Steamwake, your....attitude had been noted. :nope: It is against the konstitution to question the Our Beloved Messiah, Barrack Obama, paise be to His Name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecDxMQcsLg

Steamwake, you're not singing loud enough!:x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbECxnd5ZA4

You got your own problems. Beer is what, $80.00 for a case now in your state?:har: They got real problems when they start mess'in with a man's beer. :nope:No worries! I can get Nik all the Meister Brau he can drink for a nickle a can. Guaranteed to give you a head ache before the hangover and work as a laxative too.:DL

[Digital_Trucker]

No worries! I can get Nik all the Meister Brau he can drink for a nickle a can. Guaranteed to give you a head ache before the hangover and work as a laxative too.:DL

Why do that when he can get San Miguel for a nickle a case and it will do all of that plus make him sterile:salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

Tell it like it is brother...
The groundswell gathers strength.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853
Steamwake, your....attitude had been noted. :nope: It is against the konstitution to question the Our Beloved Messiah, Barrack Obama, paise be to His Name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecDxMQcsLg

Steamwake, you're not singing loud enough!:x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbECxnd5ZA4
You got your own problems. Beer is what, $80.00 for a case now in your state?:har: They got real problems when they start mess'in with a man's beer. :nope:No worries! I can get Nik all the Meister Brau he can drink for a nickle a can. Guaranteed to give you a head ache before the hangover and work as a laxative too.:DL
Sounds like Schafer Beer. The one beer to have when you only have $1.10.:har: