The stimulus bill, and how the 3rd and 4th most powerful people in the world act

[SUBMAN1]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/17/cafferty.stimulus/index.html

-S

[Fr8monkey]

Jack Cafferty is another right wing whiner that is crying in his scotch becaues the Obstructionist (Republican) party lost the election. I say try him as a terrorist for that last comment.... Sounds like he wants the President dead.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Yes! He was observed making anti-party statements and slandered our glorious leader. Ten years in the Gulag!:O:

[Digital_Trucker]

I might be wrong, but the promise was for the bill to be up on the website for 48 hours after it was passed before The Supreme One would sign it (except in the case of "emergency" bills). The House and Senate should have had access to the bill long before it was posted on the website.

That having been said, I can almost guarantee that the majority of the members of the House and Senate didn't read all 1100 some odd pages. They only read the ones that pertained to their pet project that was supposed to be in the bill.

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong, according to http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-broken/ the promise was to have it up on the site 5 days before he signed it.

[August]

It took some finagling but I got my own pet project into the stimulus bill:

wireless and broadband deployment grant programs (including transfer of funds to August for the August Personal Economic Stimulus Program)

For necessary and unnecessary expenses related to the Wireless and Broadband Deployment Grant Programs established by section 6002 of division B of this Act, $2,825,000,000, of which $1,000,000,000 shall be for Wireless Deployment Grants and $1,825,000,000 shall be for Broadband Deployment Grants: Provided, That an additional $1,000000000 shall be paid directly to August in the form of subsidized loans that do not require repayment. Provided Further, That the funds be used by August to provide new jobs building his island fortress or for whatever. Provided Even Further, That August will receive free New England Patriots tickets for life. Provided Even Further Still, That August shall be treated as a cabinet-level appointment for the purpose of income tax reporting, and therefore no taxes shall be paid on any of the aformentioned benefits. And one more thing: Nancy Pelosi is hereby expelled from Congress, effective immediately upon enactment.


And you can too!:


:D http://reason.com/blog/show/131664.html

[SteamWake]

Congress lying to the American people has become part of their job description. They can't be trusted on anything anymore

That pretty much sums it up.

[SteamWake]

Jack Cafferty is another right wing whiner that is crying in his scotch becaues the Obstructionist (Republican) party lost the election. I say try him as a terrorist for that last comment.... Sounds like he wants the President dead.

Sounded to me like he expects a one term presidency, as do I.

[Fr8monkey]

Most Obstructionists.. oops, I mean republicans, hope for Obama to fail. I mean look what it would be like if we had 4 more years of a Bush type presidency. The country would bee even more screwed up.

Give the man a break. He has only been in office for less than a month and you want to have him replaced. That is the difference between Liberals and Obstructionists..... Liberals want the USA to suceed not put all the money into the pockets of the wealthy.

[August]

Liberals want the USA to suceed not put all the money into the pockets of the wealthy.

Succeed at what? Destroying the nation? All the complaining you Liberals did about the budget deficit and the first thing you did when you got into power is to double it overnight, and what for? Pet projects and pork that will do absolutely nothing to fix the nations economic problems.

[GoldenRivet]

Most Obstructionists.. oops, I mean republicans, hope for Obama to fail. I mean look what it would be like if we had 4 more years of a Bush type presidency. The country would bee even more screwed up.

Give the man a break. He has only been in office for less than a month and you want to have him replaced. That is the difference between Liberals and Obstructionists..... Liberals want the USA to suceed not put all the money into the pockets of the wealthy.

thats right.

they want to take the money away from those who have earned it and give it freely to those who have not.

i have had it with this left or right, liberal or "obstructionust", democrat or republican bullsh*t

its just another "us vs. them" mentality... and my friends nothing is more dangerous in a bipartisan democracy than to host the "us vs. them" attitude.

once you are consumed with the "us vs. them" crap - ITS GAME OVER.

If Yobama was HALF the leader he claims to be he would have done one thing and one thing only when it came time to sign that stimulus bill... he should have said...

"SORRY CONGRESS. IM NOT SIGNING THIS VERSION... BECAUSE ITS NOT WHAT WE ALL AGREED ON... GO TRY IT AGAIN UNTIL YOU DRAFT SOMETHING YOU CAN ALL AGREE ON, AND DONT COME BACK UNTIL YOU GET IT RIGHT"

folks can blame the president all they want to but in the end the ball is in the hands of Congress.

every time i think of congress of late im reminded of a very special quote.

"...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

whether your left or right or center - you can ignore it, or agree or disagree, but America is fast approaching a revolution and Washington has no clue its coming.

it might not happen this year or next... but at this rate I personally would not be surprised to see Washington DC burned to the ground in my life time.

[AVGWarhawk]

Most Obstructionists.. oops, I mean republicans, hope for Obama to fail. I mean look what it would be like if we had 4 more years of a Bush type presidency. The country would bee even more screwed up.

Give the man a break. He has only been in office for less than a month and you want to have him replaced. That is the difference between Liberals and Obstructionists..... Liberals want the USA to suceed not put all the money into the pockets of the wealthy.

It is hard to give anyone a break when promises to do something do not happen. For what it is worth, the article is about everyone on Capitol Hill as I read it. Several things were told to the public that did not come true concerning this bill. Therefore, Capitol Hill has left themselves suspect in any dealing hence forth. Liberals want Liberals to be successful. Republicans want Republicans to be successful. Let me know when the study of a field mouse in California that got $350 million for these studies somehow makes anyone a success. It is earmarks like this field mouse (in Pelosi's home state) that are frowned upon. Hers was just one of many in this bill. Very little of the bill stimulates anything but a run for the same office for everyone up for re-election. Nothing more.

[mookiemookie]

Far from being only about jobs, infrastructure and tax cuts as promised, the stimulus bill stimulates a bunch of other stuff as well. Eight billion dollars for high-speed rail lines, including a proposed line between Las Vegas and Los Angeles.

Yeah Jack, because the rail line will build itself. And aren't transportation networks the very definition of infrastructure?

[AVGWarhawk]

Far from being only about jobs, infrastructure and tax cuts as promised, the stimulus bill stimulates a bunch of other stuff as well. Eight billion dollars for high-speed rail lines, including a proposed line between Las Vegas and Los Angeles.
Yeah Jack, because the rail line will build itself. And aren't transportation networks the very definition of infrastructure?
Harry Reid earmark project coming out of Pelosi home state. Just another set up. But yes, after 5 years of study and the effects to the habitat this trains is whizzing through, maybe we can break ground. Not what I call a shovel ready project.:down:

[Enigma]

Harry Reid earmark project coming out of Pelosi home state. Just another set up.

I lived in Vegas for the better part of the last 2 years, and I can tell you this isn't just "another set up". There's lots of folks in support of this, (I'm not one of them) and it is a viable project. Cool your paranoid jets. ;)

[Fr8monkey]

'its just another "us vs. them" mentality... and my friends nothing is more dangerous in a bipartisan democracy than to host the "us vs. them" attitude.'

How bipartisian was the republican senate? Recall the term 'up or down vote'? The Repub leaders wouldn't even let the Dems. hold meetings for gods sake.... atleast Obama met with the leadership of the opposing party. Did Bush? No.

How about atleast 15 Repubs. were going to vote for the bill untill the leadership threatened them.

[Fr8monkey]

Liberals want the USA to suceed not put all the money into the pockets of the wealthy.

Succeed at what? Destroying the nation? All the complaining you Liberals did about the budget deficit and the first thing you did when you got into power is to double it overnight, and what for? Pet projects and pork that will do absolutely nothing to fix the nations economic problems.

Yeah. Bush had the economy right on track, too. Remember the Bridge to Nowhere? No Repub. pork to be found in 8 years!!

[Fr8monkey]

[quote=GoldenRivet]

thats right.

[quote=they want to take the money away from those who have earned it and give it freely to those who have not.]

And Wall Street and the Big 3 shoud keep their private jets and multi million dollar bonuses (gained from our tax money) for their failure? I agree with you!!!:damn:

[AVGWarhawk]

Harry Reid earmark project coming out of Pelosi home state. Just another set up.
I lived in Vegas for the better part of the last 2 years, and I can tell you this isn't just "another set up". There's lots of folks in support of this, (I'm not one of them) and it is a viable project. Cool your paranoid jets. ;)
Of course they support it. It just drags in more money. Reid looked out for his own state on taxpayers dollars from every state. There is no paranoia here, just the facts. This should have been financed through CA and NV. It is their pet project. It is all about the almighty dollar. Nice Reid could get the project on taxpayers dollars and dollars from taxpayers outside of his state. This is not infrastructure, this is providing transportation to arrive to Vegas with money and go home without it. :rotfl: Harry has secured his seat on the next election because, NV general public supports this rail. End of story. :salute:

[August]

Yeah. Bush had the economy right on track, too. Remember the Bridge to Nowhere? No Repub. pork to be found in 8 years!!

There's always been plenty of pork barrel projects to go around on both sides of the aisle, but I've yet to hear the GoP call them "economic stimulus" packages.

Be as defensive as you like but you can't argue with facts. The Dems have overnight doubled the deficit that took almost a decade, a major terrorist attack and two wars to produce.

[Dan D]

...subsidized loans that do not require repayment...

Is that true, August?

I have read, they are planning the same here in Germany.

Why not "repayment is due within 10 years" ? Do you have any idea?
I don't get it.

[August]

...subsidized loans that do not require repayment...
Is that true, August?

I have read, they are planning the same here in Germany.

Why not "repayment is due within 10 years" ? Do you have any idea?
I don't get it.

It took me a while to find where i said that! I'm sorry to say that it's a joke Dan. :DL

You can get your personal stimulus earmark as well:

http://www.reason.com/stimulus/request.php

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah. Bush had the economy right on track, too. Remember the Bridge to Nowhere? No Repub. pork to be found in 8 years!!
There's always been plenty of pork barrel projects to go around on both sides of the aisle, but I've yet to hear the GoP call them "economic stimulus" packages.

Be as defensive as you like but you can't argue with facts. The Dems have overnight doubled the deficit that took almost a decade, a major terrorist attack and two wars to produce.

This ain't over yet. I applaud Obama for sending in troop to Afghanistan but we are looking at another major financial hit to support this. Come on, 350 mill for field mouse.

[Quillan]

every time i think of congress of late im reminded of a very special quote.

Every time I think of Congress I'm reminded of a very special quote as well:

If the opposite of pro is con, does this mean the opposite of progress is Congress?

[Fr8monkey]

Yeah. Bush had the economy right on track, too. Remember the Bridge to Nowhere? No Repub. pork to be found in 8 years!!

There's always been plenty of pork barrel projects to go around on both sides of the aisle, but I've yet to hear the GoP call them "economic stimulus" packages.

Be as defensive as you like but you can't argue with facts. The Dems have overnight doubled the deficit that took almost a decade, a major terrorist attack and two wars to produce.

Where is the proof that he doubled the deficit overnight? Show me a link.

[Tchocky]

Come on, 350 mill for field mouse.

Yeah, wetlands conservation/restoration won't employ anyone.

It's all done by robots.

No jobs for anyone in that, especially not planners, ecologists, landscape engineers, labourers.

And all for a single mouse.

Just one.

It certainly won't help study into how to manage rodent populations in order to keep California's agricultural output secure. It's not like California produces much food either.

Oh, and it's 30 million. You're off by a factor of ten. Thirty million out of 790 billion.

[Fr8monkey]

Anyway, I hear that the world is comming to an end because the stimulus package to help stop the economy from doing a Hindenburg impression; but what ideas are we getting from the right.... Nothing. Tax cuts are not the answer. You don't stimulate spending to get the economy back up and running by with holding money.

Hasn't anyone taken basic economics?

[AVGWarhawk]

Come on, 350 mill for field mouse.
Yeah, wetlands conservation/restoration won't employ anyone.

It's all done by robots.

No jobs for anyone in that, especially not planners, ecologists, landscape engineers, labourers.

And all for a single mouse.

Just one.

It certainly won't help study into how to manage rodent populations in order to keep California's agricultural output secure. It's not like California produces much food either.

Oh, and it's 30 million. You're off by a factor of ten. Thirty million out of 790 billion.

Yes, a team of about 5000 scientists will decend on the field to study the field mouse and its habitat. Come on, 5 guys in white jackets with clipboards. I feel the stimulation. 30 million or 3 bucks...this is not a stimulus. :down:

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyway, I hear that the world is comming to an end because the stimulus package to help stop the economy from doing a Hindenburg impression; but what ideas are we getting from the right.... Nothing. Tax cuts are not the answer. You don't stimulate spending to get the economy back up and running by with holding money.

Hasn't anyone taken basic economics?

Holding what money. People need money to spend thus stimulating the economy. Hence, tax cut. I got $13.00 more a week. I'm about $7.00 short of feeding 4 at McDonalds. You watch, that $13.00 is going onto the gas tank anyway. Gas price have gone up but the price of the barrel has remained the same:hmmm:

[August]

Where is the proof that he doubled the deficit overnight? Show me a link.

Actually I was wrong. It's been tripled!

Forecasters expect the 2009 deficit — for the budget year that began last Oct 1 — to hit $1.6 trillion including new stimulus and bank-bailout spending. That's about three times last year's shortfall.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090214/ap_on_go_co/stimulus_stakes_who_gets_what

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah. Bush had the economy right on track, too. Remember the Bridge to Nowhere? No Repub. pork to be found in 8 years!!
There's always been plenty of pork barrel projects to go around on both sides of the aisle, but I've yet to hear the GoP call them "economic stimulus" packages.

Be as defensive as you like but you can't argue with facts. The Dems have overnight doubled the deficit that took almost a decade, a major terrorist attack and two wars to produce.
Where is the proof that he doubled the deficit overnight? Show me a link.

http://constitutionalconservative.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/obama-to-double-federal-deficit/

This is what I find. Google is your friend.

[AVGWarhawk]

There is hope:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/18/white-house-opposes-fairness-doctrine/

[GoldenRivet]

[quote=GoldenRivet]

thats right.

[quote=they want to take the money away from those who have earned it and give it freely to those who have not.]

And Wall Street and the Big 3 shoud keep their private jets and multi million dollar bonuses (gained from our tax money) for their failure? I agree with you!!!:damn:

nice way to change my words around

where do you think those tax dollars come from???

sure big corporations, but taxpayers like you and I too.

[Sea Demon]

Jack Cafferty is another right wing whiner that is crying in his scotch becaues the Obstructionist (Republican) party lost the election. I say try him as a terrorist for that last comment.... Sounds like he wants the President dead.
How stupid. If that comment amounts to terrorism against a POTUS, most liberals should be locked away in Gitmo for the vile things they said about the last administration. This comment is nothing in comparison. Nor does he mean what you imply he means.

[GoldenRivet]

'its just another "us vs. them" mentality... and my friends nothing is more dangerous in a bipartisan democracy than to host the "us vs. them" attitude.'

How bipartisian was the republican senate? Recall the term 'up or down vote'? The Repub leaders wouldn't even let the Dems. hold meetings for gods sake.... atleast Obama met with the leadership of the opposing party. Did Bush? No.

How about atleast 15 Repubs. were going to vote for the bill untill the leadership threatened them.

more us vs them BS like i mentioned.

Fr8Monkey... open your eyes bro... my post accused NO PARTICULAR PARTY

it accused BOTH

bipartisanship in America can best be described as

tits up... pushing daisys... dead... it ceases to be...

bipartisanship is no more

and BOTH parties and all of those folks blindly loyal to their parties are to blame.

[Fr8monkey]

:timeout:
Rivet, Sorry. Wasn't digging on you... just using the 'bipartisan' as a point I always get from the right leaners I talk to.

Truce?:up:

BTW, Google is your friend http://opportunitiesaplenty.com/Debt_Blog/2008/06/_what_is_the_cause_for_the_national_debt.html

Let's see... Getting loans from china at the expense of national soverinty (Bush) or Putting money into schools, infrastructure, job placement, etc.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090214/ap_on_go_co/stimulus_stakes_who_gets_what .

I'll go with option #2

@ Warhawk... Quoting Fox "news" is just proving how you reall lean.

[Dan D]

...subsidized loans that do not require repayment...
Is that true, August?

I have read, they are planning the same here in Germany.

Why not "repayment is due within 10 years" ? Do you have any idea?
I don't get it.

It took me a while to find where i said that! I'm sorry to say that it's a joke Dan. :DL

You can get your personal stimulus earmark as well:

http://www.reason.com/stimulus/request.php


Oh; I see. It was a joke. :-)
Well, let's hope, this remains as a joke.
What I find a bit worrysome, is that you hear a lot about stimulus plans which is fine by me in general, but rarely about the pay back thing. This is not wise on the political side, I think. They have to sell their shice to the voters. May be, they should point out more, that nothing is for free and that loans are to be repaid even when it is the automobile industry, banks etc. The man on the street has always been taught the hard lesson: When it starts to rain, the bank takes away your umbrella.
"Bail out plan".

[AVGWarhawk]

@ Warhawk... Quoting Fox "news" is just proving how you reall lean.

Just as any other news stations. So bro, I do not get shivers up my leg when I see Barry O. I do not shed a tear listening to his speeches. I do not feel all warm and fuzzy inside watching a rockstar president. But hey, that is just me. I do not lean to the right. I'm standing in it.

[GoldenRivet]

:timeout:
Rivet, Sorry. Wasn't digging on you... just using the 'bipartisan' as a point I always get from the right leaners I talk to.

Truce?:up:

BTW, Google is your friend http://opportunitiesaplenty.com/Debt_Blog/2008/06/_what_is_the_cause_for_the_national_debt.html

Let's see... Getting loans from china at the expense of national soverinty (Bush) or Putting money into schools, infrastructure, job placement, etc.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090214/ap_on_go_co/stimulus_stakes_who_gets_what .

I'll go with option #2

@ Warhawk... Quoting Fox "news" is just proving how you reall lean.
truce

first off no matter how heated things might get discussion wise... we are friends here.

second... Obviously the choice would be #2 (reinvest in america), but myself and so many other people are so jaded in our political system that its a matter of seeing is believing. When you take almost 10% of the ENTIRE WORLD's GDP and dump it into big businesses in america you are only setting the next generation up for an absolute nightmare!

in the mean time, i see tax money that I paid-in going into the pockets of big businesses - many of which don't deserve to be in business any longer - and that cash is also funding America's turn toward socialism.

I believe that you are who you make yourself into... and i HATE these worth-nothing lay-abouts who collect MY tax dollars to sit at home and get drunk all day. as far as im concerned they need to get off their asses and go to work somewhere - anywhere.

Home of the free
Land of the handouts :nope:

thats what we have become.

[surf_ten]

We really need a legimate 3rd party in the US. The Left vs Right debates do nothing but further the divisions among us. I would classify most Americans as moderates who are sandwich between the two extremes.

As a middle class person, I willing to pay my fair share as long as our government spends my contribution in a responsible manner. I feel the American government is failing in it's constitutional duty of providing representation of the average citizen. Each party is guilty of fiscal irresponsiblity. The Dems are the tax and spend party but the Repubs are no better as the debt and spend party. I am tired of keeping a balance budget for my household and watch my representatives piss away money of the taxpayers.

I think the Obama's/Dems 'stimulus' bill is nothing short of gross financial irresponsibility. I can't see how crawling further into debt can relieve a crisis that was caused by banks despensing out bad loans (debt) like pez candies. However,
if Obama/Dem's stimulus package was meant to be truely benefical then I would think that the bulk of the money would be used to rebuild our nation's factories/manfacturing infrastructure instead of setting up bribes for future votes.

I personally believe lowering taxes seem more of logical course of action in preventing deflation. Giving people back their money in hopes that they spend it and put it back into the economy.

I really want my representatives to practice fiscal responsibility. Is that too much to ask for?

[August]

We really need a legimate 3rd party in the US. The Left vs Right debates do nothing but further the divisions among us. I would classify most Americans as moderates who are sandwich between the two extremes.


I don't see where a third party would do anything except make a voters decision go from picking which half of his rights he wants to jeopardize to which 2/3rds. What you call the middle would rapidly become the third point in an equal triangle.

[surf_ten]

We really need a legimate 3rd party in the US. The Left vs Right debates do nothing but further the divisions among us. I would classify most Americans as moderates who are sandwich between the two extremes.


I don't see where a third party would do anything except make a voters decision go from picking which half of his rights he wants to jeopardize to which 2/3rds. What you call the middle would rapidly become the third point in an equal triangle.

You might be right, but I for one am not happy with the current two party system as it exists today. Many of my coworkers and friends are starting to have the same opinion.

[vtccgolf]

Wait a minute...I just thought for a second I got caught in the crossfire between the Flying Dutchman and the IJN Yamato (Silent Hunter 4). :timeout:

Wow...now I like the discussion going on this thread! I just joined up with the forum today, and I like what I am seeing. People actually talking about the issues! I just thought all Americans had rolled over and played "I don't care about politics." I guess the general concensus is that our government is a train wreck that keeps on giving, particularly to those that made poor decisions. I guess its a bad thing I can still make my mortgage payment.

Ok, all Neal Boortz / Glenn Beck sarcasm aside, I am glad to see this going on. I am also glad to see that most people are starting to look for new solutions to the huge mess we have in DC. The blame for this is on everyone...right down to the American people that elected these clowns. In a Republic (which is what we are despite what Woodrow Wilson started), the decisions are made by our elected officials, and it is up to us to make sure that they carry out our will. Now, how many people do we all know that couldn't tell you who their elected officials are? Yeah, I rest my case. Everyday I meet people that simply confound me on how they even know how to breathe, much less try to debate the merits of anything going on in Congress these days. The level of understanding among the average American on our nation's history, government, or our Constitution makes me sick. :damn:

I don't have an fancy studies to back that up, but the simple fact that our country is falling apart and "We the People" watch it all happen on our news channel of choice should say it all. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes, but America needs to wake up now and about face. Anyone that even tries to justify this "crapulus" that got shoved down our throats...got to pass it or the world will fall apart...needs to ask themselves one thing. Do you know exactly what got passed? No one in Congress read the whole thing, and I would have tried had someone kept their word on posting the bill. Funny, why did Obama wait to sign it on Tuesday? I am sure something this "urgent" could interupt Valentine's Day. Yeah...we just sold our great-grandchildren up the river. And it's about time the American people say something about that.

@ surf_ten: Want a third option...check out the Libertarians. I will proudly say that I am one thanks to Neal Boortz. I don't want to go on about it, but if you or anyone wants to know more, read his book "Somebody's Gotta Say it!" It explains Libertarians pretty well. They are also the big FairTax supporters. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.

@Fr8monkey: I appreciate you willingness to stand up for your beliefs. Do me a favor and remind Obama of all the promises he made that he CAN'T live up too. It is sad when Obama has to pick lobbyists for his Administration. Why? Because that the only way DC can work. Lovely system we have allowed to be created. I think it's time Maryland got is land back. And the states need to take back this Union.

About basic economics...what exactly should we have learned? About the "invisible hand," or about the Keynesians belief that government spending will save us? How about the Laffer curve? This field, like any other, has two sides to the story. Both can be right, and both can be wrong. To be informed, you have to know both sides to make your own call. And no, most Americans never have taken an economics course. They couldn't tell you a "profit margin" from their elected officials. It is optional, like how American history and government are becoming.

Based on your reasoning concerning economics, you may want to check this link our and tell these guys they need to take a basic economics course too:

http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf

Keep standing up for what you believe in...but make damn sure you know what that is. I have friends that work on the Hill in various capacities, and not one of them would solely trust anything out of a politician's mouth.

@ Everyone else: Thanks for the warm welcome, and I wanted to leave you with the following thoughts. If you truly want to know our Republic, you must know our founding fathers (not what some Justice or politician tells you).

On your tax dollars hard at work:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson

Another thought on this stimulus:

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world." - Thomas Jefferson

A word of caution about our government caring:

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

The difference between democracy and liberty:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Ben Franklin

About being self-sufficient:

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Ben Franklin

About being prepared:

"If we are wise, let us prepare for the worst." - George Washington

And finally, about paying taxes:

“Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” (Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507, Senator Tom Daschle (D-SD))

OK...that last quote isn't a founding father, but, with all this talk of paying taxes, I just wanted you to know that your leaders are looking out for the cheats. And Tom, if you accidently thought that was a gift, please refer to IRS Publication 950 "Introduction to Estate and Gift Taxes." Yeap, you guys even tax gifts and dead people! But, you knew that...right? :damn:

Glad to be part of the family!

[GoldenRivet]

The difference between democracy and liberty:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Ben Franklin

About being self-sufficient:

"The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Ben Franklin



EXACTLY :rock:

[vtccgolf]

There is a small amount of hope! This says it all! :yeah: Check out this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZB4taSEoA

Maybe, just maybe...America will wake up.

[GoldenRivet]

There is a small amount of hope! This says it all! :yeah: Check out this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZB4taSEoA

Maybe, just maybe...America will wake up.

Already posted in another thread.

good find though.

and about America waking up... there is hope, but i doubt it, America is a heavy sleeper

[surf_ten]

For every one American who is seething with anger over this poor policy there is probably two americans who are absolutely in love with the Obama administration. President Obama is the left's version of Reagan. I know half my family is cuckoo for cocoa puffs over him.

@vtccgolf - welcome aboard, I agree with many of the Libertarian principles, not all of them, but I have more in common with your world view than say anyone who supports collectivism. I did support Ron Paul campaign for the presidency. He was the only politcian speaking the truth about the economy before all hell broke lose. I didn't totally accept his foreign policy position nor did I appreciate his army of truther's supporters. However Mr Paul, unlike Mr. Obama, would have been the true agent of positive 'CHANGE' this country needs. But people tend to shy away from truth and readily accept platitudes and hollow promises.

[vtccgolf]

@surf_ten: Thanks for the warm welcome. I know what you mean about not following all the ideas behind Libertarianism...it was hard for me to get on board too (I used to be a super conservative). But after reading Boortz's books and about the FairTax, I decided that putting our Constitution first was more than important that party politics. After all, I did take an oath to defend that document, not some partyline. And besides, a couple guys wanting to be married and a little legal pot isn't going to destroy this country...at least not at fast as our spending spree. My Christian peers think I am off my rocker, but then I tell them that Christianity was born in a word that was ruled by Romans and Christians were killed. We are very lucky to be living in the times that we are. It's crazy to hear some folks like Glenn Beck and Dave Ramsey talking about becoming more and more Libertarian each day...this could be something big.

On Ron Paul...talk about a guy that that wasn't afraid to speak the truth. He is still the best thing on CSPAN, and people would actually ask me about inflation and the dollar when seeing his debates. My conservative friends made fun of him during the debates, but I reminded them that only he is talking about the most important issue of our time...our financial stability. Nothing matters when you are broke. I guess we will have to see how bad the seas get on this one. His thoughts on foreign policy did concern me, but it's hard to say that America should have seen some of the blowback coming. Then again, it could have been worse if we didn't act either.

Oh crap! For a second there, I sounded like Obama and Susan Collins all rolled into one! :down: I better get back to sinking some ships!:yeah: