View Full Version : The biggest Liar?
I did some reading on uboat.net recently, and found a number of captains grossly over-estimates the number and/or tonnage of the ships sunk.
Here is one;
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html
"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=1202) reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."
It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...
Uboat.net only list confirmed sinkings. Which make me curious:
Who claimed the most tonnage sunk? (Is it Kreshmer?)
Who claimed the most number of ships sunk?
AND
Who's the biggest liar? (claim a lot more than actual sinking).
Sailor Steve
02-10-09, 07:29 PM
You've been doing the reading. You tell us!:DL
Seriously, though, Blair in his American submarine book talks about the problems involved. A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.
In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.
From what I've read here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemariepurnell/can4a.html Joachim Schepke had a tendency to overestimate his tonnage. According to Lawrence Paterson, Albrecht Brandi also did this.
Dread Knot
02-11-09, 09:31 AM
You could also blame some of these discrepancies on Reichsfurher Goebbels. The German Propaganda Ministry had no compunction with pushing dubious claims. That's why the Ark Royal was sunk several times in her career before she really was.
A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.
In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.
Exactly!
Fighter pilots over claimed as well. Not suprising considering how crazy mass dog fights must have been. Before gun cameras I don't know how any of them kept track of what was going on.
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html
"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=1202) reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."
It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...
Sailor Steve
02-11-09, 02:57 PM
:rotfl:
I did say most, not all...
Jimbuna
02-11-09, 06:01 PM
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html
"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=1202) reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."
It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...
LOL :DL
http://www.toontracker.com/magoo/magoo-1.gif
A Very Super Market
02-11-09, 06:50 PM
The biggest liars are probably players like ourselves. Just how many times has the Hood been sunk already?!
McHibbins
02-12-09, 03:55 AM
From what I've read here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemariepurnell/can4a.html Joachim Schepke had a tendency to overestimate his tonnage. According to Lawrence Paterson, Albrecht Brandi also did this.
Schepkes tendency to overestimate was well known as "Schepke-Tonnage" between the Cmdrs during WWII.
A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.
In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.
Exactly!
Fighter pilots over claimed as well. Not suprising considering how crazy mass dog fights must have been. Before gun cameras I don't know how any of them kept track of what was going on.
A little off topic but the Luftwaffe had a very strict claims procedure. A kill had to be witnessed by 1 other person before it was recognized & confirmed by the claimant's Gruppenkommandeur. Unlike the RAF, RCAF, USAAF, etc. the Luftwaffe's policy was "one pilot, one kill"; if 2 pilots claimed the same kill they had to decide between themselves who would get credit. If they were unable to decide the Staffel was awarded the victory.
Jimbuna
02-12-09, 07:49 AM
That's correct, but by the same token if joint claims were made and no overwhelming evidence was found to decide which claimant was actually responsible....kills were often halved ie divided equally.
Schroeder
02-12-09, 08:35 AM
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html
"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=1202) reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."
It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...
Could have been pure despair.
In Oct 1944 the U-Boats were really hard pressed by the allied. Maybe he needed some sort of success to not meet with some interrogators after coming back and be reagrded a coward (which was quite unhealthy in Germany by that time).:06:
A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.
In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.
Exactly!
Fighter pilots over claimed as well. Not suprising considering how crazy mass dog fights must have been. Before gun cameras I don't know how any of them kept track of what was going on.
A little off topic but the Luftwaffe had a very strict claims procedure. A kill had to be witnessed by 1 other person before it was recognized & confirmed by the claimant's Gruppenkommandeur. Unlike the RAF, RCAF, USAAF, etc. the Luftwaffe's policy was "one pilot, one kill"; if 2 pilots claimed the same kill they had to decide between themselves who would get credit. If they were unable to decide the Staffel was awarded the victory.
That makes sense, but still who knows in the chaos of combat. I've read many reports that claim 'blue' squadron shot down 12 'red' planes in engagement 'x'. Then you see 'red' squadron report 3 planes lost after the same engagement.
I always liked the story I read once about a RAF Spitfire pilot's comment to his CO after a fierce dogfight, "Well sir, I think I managed to scare a few of them as much as they scared me."
Personally, I've never had a shot fired at me in anger, so I'm willing to give those that have quite a pass. U-boat kaleun or fighter pilot.:salute:
[quote=McHibbinsSchepkes tendency to overestimate was well known as "Schepke-Tonnage" between the Cmdrs during WWII.[/quote]
So, it's safe to say the regarded his reports rather Schepketical? :O: (could not resist...)
Benny
nikbear
02-12-09, 05:02 PM
Have to remember that alot of the time Kaleuns didn't stick around to confirm kills,you dived into the cellar or you didn't live to tell anything at all,from alot of the books I've read,alot of kills claimed where when crews heard an eel explode at the end of its run and it was unsafe to go to periscope depth to check,it was just assumed that the eels had hit they're mark:hmmm:If the U-boat surfaced later and saw oil on the surface and debris it could be rightly assumed that the ship went down,even when it had managed to limp off and keep up with the convoy:03:there are a few stories of ships being hit and carrying on and being sunk later with two different U-boats claming the kill!:up:in the end,in the heat of battle,accurate record keeping wasn't a top priority,and as someone rightly mentioned,propaganda was a very effective weapon:yeah:
LordNeuro"Serbia"
02-12-09, 06:25 PM
In evry war u have the same thing. The American fighter pilots afthen reported more german plans shot down then they even have in the area. Same thing is in the modern war. In 1999 ir campaing over Kosovo the American pilots reported lots of hits on ground forces , but whean the war was over only 13 tank were destroyd. So it is comon thing imho.
But thet is just my 2c.
Sailor Steve
02-13-09, 11:31 AM
Schepkes tendency to overestimate was well known as "Schepke-Tonnage" between the Cmdrs during WWII.
So, it's safe to say the regarded his reports rather Schepketical? :O: (could not resist...)
Benny
Excellent!:rotfl:
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html
"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 (http://uboat.net/find_boat.php3?find_boat=1202) reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."
It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...
Could have been pure despair.
In Oct 1944 the U-Boats were really hard pressed by the allied. Maybe he needed some sort of success to not meet with some interrogators after coming back and be reagrded a coward (which was quite unhealthy in Germany by that time).:06:
That's true, a captain Hirsacker ( http://uboat.net/men/commanders/495.html ) was shot for cowardice. And he had 3 confirmed kills. Maybe he can be just a little bit more liberal about his claims, he could have survived the war.
Heibges
02-23-09, 05:25 PM
I worked for a lot of years in sales, and some salesman would be spot on with their estimates, and other would always be over what the account would actually bring in.
kenijaru
02-23-09, 06:16 PM
....a coward (which was quite unhealthy in Germany by that time).:06:
cowardice in the presence of the enemy has been (as far as i know) punished by the means of a firing-squad not only on the Reich, but also during WW1, not only by the central powers, but also by the Allies (during both World Wars).
Also, I've heard of Argentine soldiers being shot for showing cowardice during the Falklands War. My point being... Cowardice equals firing-squad in military history... since EVER... and probably... today too.
Oneshot/Onekill
02-24-09, 04:33 AM
I'm also pretty sure that you would have to take into the account, out of all the U-boats, and their crews that were lost during the conflict, that there would be ALOT of missing information. (ie) missing log books, communication logs, burning of official documents as the allies got closer and closer to Berlin. Quite a few of these reports for tonnage, as well as patrol history were given by surviving crew members, some of which were not in a command position.
unterseemann
02-24-09, 06:25 AM
Humm...just imagine:
You are playing SH3 and attacking a convoy in 1944, DiD, no external camera, and aiming two ships. Would you wait at PD to witness your success and be sure that your targets sink? I guess that you instead dive deep as fast as you can... So what would you write in your log book if you don't have the magical "she's going down..." ??? :D
Sailor Steve
02-24-09, 03:26 PM
In Aces Of the Deep you would get the report "Breaking-up noises heard, Herr Kaleun!"
Would be nice if SH3 did something similar, or if you could hear them yourself from more than 300 meters away.
Jimbuna
02-24-09, 04:23 PM
Humm...just imagine:
You are playing SH3 and attacking a convoy in 1944, DiD, no external camera, and aiming two ships. Would you wait at PD to witness your success and be sure that your targets sink? I guess that you instead dive deep as fast as you can... So what would you write in your log book if you don't have the magical "she's going down..." ??? :D
Just write in that you received the confirmation....and collect your medal on your return :DL
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