Luftwaffe Torpedo Kommandogeraet

[Maraz]

Hi guys,
I have stumped into this sort of Torpedo Data Computer used by Luftwaffe torpedo bombers:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/Schaltkasten/gross/Torpedokommando.jpg

I see some analogies with U-Boot TDC, though this is a much simpler instrument, of course. I wonder if someone can understand how this worked, un particular which were the input by the aircraft observer: I see a knob with ship's speed (maybe estimeted by the airmen) and another with an angle from 0 to +/-180 ... was this bearing or AOB ?

The upper right semilunar window should be the torpedo turn angle.

Can someone help?
Please consider that the problem of aerial torpedo is made complicated by the fact that the torpedo as two different steps of its course, one in air (with aircraft speed) the other in water (quickly decelerating to cruise speed)

Thanks
Maraz

[Mittelwaechter]

I don't know much about its function, but I can try to translate 'clockwise':


- White/black: pilot lamp "ready to drop"

- light blue: scale for launching angle and shotangle screen

- red: small rotary knob for torpedo speed setting

- green: outer scale: angle to target (2 times 0 to 18 degrees)
inner scale: (Nautical Miles/Hour) Speed of target

- grey: (starboard) optical indicator for 'angleshot'

- blue: two release buttons for Stb-LT (Steuerbord Luft-Torpedo = starboard air torpedo) and Bb-LT (Backbord Luft-Torpedo = port air torpedo)

- grey: (port) optical indicator for 'angleshot'

- orange: two switches for torpedo running depth settings
(by switching to left or right the running depth was 'programmable' - presettable?)

- yellow: two depth indicators for Stb-LT and Bb-LT running depth

Obviously the angle of attack (of the aircraft) was to be between 0 and 18 degrees. I know there were several different models of LTs available, with different request to speed and altitude (and maybe AOA) for the dropping aircraft. Pattern running LTs were pre-war basics and I know they experimented with kinetic torpedos - simply straight running torpedos without propulsion.

The experimental "Friedensengel" (Angel of Peace) was a kind of cruise missile. An unguided carrier was dropped by the aircraft and released the torpedo close to the watersurface. This way the range of the torpedo was increased significantly and the aircraft could stay out of AA range.

I guess your question would fit into a WWII flight game forum. Maybe you'll find a whizz to tell you more.

[Maraz]

Thanks,
I suspect that the angle scals is actually meant to represent 0 to 180 degrees. In your opinion, is it an AOB scale? Or a bearing scale ?

Maraz

[Pisces]

Thanks,
I suspect that the angle scals is actually meant to represent 0 to 180 degrees. In your opinion, is it an AOB scale? Or a bearing scale ?

MarazIf I may answer for him. If it is a bearing scale it would be used to tell the device is the target is somewhere around the airplane. However that would not be of any use for aiming if there wasn't a true AOB dial. Since a plane would (usually) be flying towards a target when dropping there is no need for a bearing input. Just AOB would suffice to make up for different approach directions. If it was slaved to a gyrocompass in the aircraft it would prevent the pilot from having to correct with every small turn he makes. Imho, AOB makes most sense.

As for the 2 different stages of it's travel I think the torpedo would be dropped very close to the surface so it wouldn't take long to drop into the wet. Maybe a short delay timer is built in the device or torpedo. Also the pilot could steer the plane so the light blue (steering) dial would show zero angle. I think this is the same as the gyro angle in Sh3. Then range to target is of no use.

I know, I've written alot of IF's. But with just the image, there is not much left but hypothesizing we can do.

[Mittelwaechter]

http://g.imagehost.org/0047/ToKG_1B.gif

Thinking about the possible settings and the fixed outer 0 - 18 scale (look at the srews!) I think it workedlike this.

Turn the little white triangle to the AOB (!) - in our case 90° port.
Set speed of target - meeting the little white triangle.
Set speed of torpedo/s.
Read angle of attack and turn aircraft accordingly. (here 29 degrees to the left)
Distance is irrelevant. :DL (says Pythagoras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras))

The torpedo/s follow/s a staight path to meet the target, no gyro turning necessary.


Edit: Hey Pisces! Nice we come to identical conclusions!

[Pisces]

Mittelwaechter: :up:

BTW, I found the website you guys found those pics. Feel like translating some more?

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/Schaltkasten/Torpedo%20Einsatz.htm

[Mittelwaechter]

:timeout:

That's some long text to translate, mate.

I stumbled upon this site too, but the utilizable information for the ToKG 1b is neglectable. It's the description of an torpedo attack by someone who has only some information and tries to make it important. Some facts mixed with general knowledge.
(i.e.: better sight when closer to target as in nice weather conditions, assistance of copilot/wingman is valuable, 8.8 AA is dangerous when flying higher than 300 meters - other AA seems to be inexistent :DL ... well - some babble...)


In short:
Performing a torpedo attack is a challenging manoeuvre for the pilot.

1: lower than 70 law.
The aircraft has to be lower than 70 meters altitude and slower than 320 km/h in horizontal flight. Higher or faster would cause the torpedo to explode when hitting the watersurface or simply make it sink.
(obviously "facts" for one certain torpedo type)

2.Approach
Ships are hard to hit from 6 or 12 o'clock (:DL), additionally a long range shot is not reliable. The target may easily dodge the torpedo. AOB of 90° should be achieved to have a bigger target area - the pilots tried to do so.
They had to determine the convoys course direction for a proper AOA. But the ships could change their course, if pilots recognized it they tried to compensate.

3.Torpedos
"For a promising deployment, the Torpedokommandogerät was used. But duds happend like in the U-Boot flottillas."

Picture

Description/technical data of three torpedo types:
- one Italian parachute model, pattern running
- one Norwegian import, used for own further development
- one improved model, the later standard air-torpedo

Interesting facts:
Hitler cancelled import and further development due to lack of success, and Kriegsmarine accepted. He revisioned his decision after several successful attacks of British and Japanese units (some French BBs, Bismarck, Pearl Harbor, Prince of Wales and Repulse). Italy delivered torpedos until the Germans built their own.

Table of types (including some prototypes)

[Kapt Z]

I never even imagined that such a thing existed.:o

I always figured torpedo bombers just made their approach, got in range, dropped their torp and hoped for the best.

We're talking He 111s and Ju 88s, right?

[Weiss Pinguin]

Same here, anyone know what aircraft this would have been fitted on? :hmmm:

[Maraz]

Same here, anyone know what aircraft this would have been fitted on? :hmmm:

I think Ju88A-4/Torp, Ju88A-17, He.111H-6.

Thanks for info
Bye
Maraz

[Mittelwaechter]

There where several aircraft capable to drop lufttorpedos; even this one:
http://f.imagehost.org/0667/FW190Torpedo.jpg
Where is that chart... :hmmm:


Ooops - on the site itself:

He 59, He 115, He 111, Ju 88, Ju 188, Do 217, He 177, Ju 87, Fw 190, Ta 152, Ju 388, Ar 234

[Maraz]

Thinking about the possible settings and the fixed outer 0 - 18 scale (look at the srews!) I think it workedlike this.

Turn the little white triangle to the AOB (!) - in our case 90° port.
Set speed of target - meeting the little white triangle.
Set speed of torpedo/s.
Read angle of attack and turn aircraft accordingly. (here 29 degrees to the left)
Distance is irrelevant. :DL (says Pythagoras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras))

The torpedo/s follow/s a staight path to meet the target, no gyro turning necessary.


This all looks very reasonable. But distance was not irrelevant, due to the aerial course of the torpedo; because the torpedo did not have a uniform speed. Lenght of aerial course depended on aircraft height and speed.

The only case where distance is irrelevant is when aircraft and ship are running on collision course; in this case, wherever the torpedo hits the water, it is still on the same collison course, and from there on, it has constant speed. But in this case it should turn when into water, to hit the ship.

Thanks for attention

Maraz

[Mittelwaechter]

Well, do you think they would have implemented a constant into theTorpedokommandogeraet to compensate the seconds it takes a torpedo to fall downfrom 50 meters and start the motor?

The pilots tried to match the ideal conditions (height, speed and distance) to drop the torpedos. Of course we all know the reliability of our data gets worse with increasing distance to target. Why do you assume the lufttorpedos had to turn in the water? It's far easier to turn the aircraft itself. Maybe the torpedos didn' t even have a gyro compass to steer straight.


For distance and collision course...


... get a targetsolution from your WEP and switch to manual TDC in SH3.Zoom out and observe the reaction of your torpedo path when changing the distance -even extremely.

Distance is irrelevant for constant AOA, AOB and target speed.

Resistance is futile! :O:


Edit: why do I have those missing gaps between some words in my postings? In this case distance is relevant I think.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

So, fitting Falkes and Zaunkoenings to aircrafts and launch them to spotted convoys could take out the escorts and leave the cargos to the uboats.
Wouldnt it work?

[Mittelwaechter]

Some modifications would have been necessary, the Falke was developed as a U-Boot weapon (~1500 kg). Pistol, fins and hull integrity were probably inadequate.

The Lufttorpedos were ~700 to 900 kg, shorter in length and smaller in diameter.
Maybe they could have adapted the falke acustic search capability to the Lufttorpedos plus the necessary steering equipment.

[Maraz]

Well, do you think they would have implemented a constant into theTorpedokommandogeraet to compensate the seconds it takes a torpedo to fall downfrom 50 meters and start the motor?

In these few seconds the aircraft travelled very fast, it could make even 300-400 m.


The pilots tried to match the ideal conditions (height, speed and distance) to drop the torpedos. Of course we all know the reliability of our data gets worse with increasing distance to target. Why do you assume the lufttorpedos had to turn in the water? It's far easier to turn the aircraft itself. Maybe the torpedos didn' t even have a gyro compass to steer straight.

This is just a possibility I am investigating. What makes me think that, is that it was not the pilot who used the ToKG and dropped the torpedo, but the bombardier of the aircraft. So maybe the pilot just had to fly straight to the target, and the bombardier did the sighting, set the ToKG, and dropped the torpedo.


... get a targetsolution from your WEP and switch to manual TDC in SH3.Zoom

SH3 does not simulate aircraft torpedo drop...


out and observe the reaction of your torpedo path when changing the distance -even extremely.

Distance is irrelevant for constant AOA, AOB and target speed.

... and constant torpedo speed. But torpedo speed cannot be assumed to be constant for aerial torpedoes.

Please download this tool that simulates aircraft torpedo drop,

http://www.150gct.it/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=5&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10
(tool is called Torpedo Master)

and see how much drop angle changes with changing ship distance.

For instance keeping constant:
Aircraft speed= 300 Km/h
Aircraft height= 100m
ship speed : 20 knots
(very typical values)

if the ship is at 600m, drop angle is 15 degrees
if the ship is at 2000m, drop angle is 23 degrees

Aircraft torpedo drop is more complicated than submarine torpedo launch... :)

Bye
Maraz