herman goering

[U-84]

so i was watching battlefield U-boats last night and couldn't help but wonder if somebody else held herman goering position, would the U-boatwaffe have done a better job/ wreak more havoc in the atlantic? Being that it seemed Donitz and Goering never saw eye to eye. Also would the presence of aircraft carriers for the kriegsmarine would have done much good? or would it just end up like another HMS courageous

[bigboywooly]

No Donitz and Goering didnt seem to get on
Trouble is ole Hermann had Hitlers ear
I dont think Hitler had much time for anything naval
If the KM had been allowed a naval air arm for the planned carriers I doubt would have made a lot of difference to the Zeppelin
Germany had no experience of building carriers and IIRC the Zeppelin deck was changed due to aircraft changes meaning longer in construction
If it hadnt had construction stopped first time then restarted a lot later it may have made it into service
Though whether Hitler would have let the fleet go out together is another matter

[Torplexed]

Frankly, I would have switched their jobs. Germany would have benefited more from having a theorist like Doenitz in the position of running the Luftwaffe. Goering was a wonderful Nazi toady, but he didn't have much in the way of visionary new ideas when it came to airpower.

Carriers wouldn't have done Germany much good. All airplanes naval or otherwise came under Goering's dominion. The Graf Zeppelin would have met the fate of Germany's few battleships. She simply didn't have the shipbuilding capacity to match her opponents

[A Very Super Market]

Germany's only hope was her land army, the KM was not weak, but the British could easily replace any losses they took, while the KM couldn't afford to lose any. The sinking of the Graf Spee and the Bismarck is a clear example of just what the British ship superiority was like.

[bigboywooly]

Germany's only hope was her land army, the KM was not weak, but the British could easily replace any losses they took, while the KM couldn't afford to lose any. The sinking of the Graf Spee and the Bismarck is a clear example of just what the British ship superiority was like.

Thats because they were used in a raider role and not in fleet actions
IF the KM heavies plus carrier had sailed together it would have made for some interesting encounters
Convoys would have had to stop or would have been wiped out

But they were always going to be outnumbered by the RN in any situation used and the raider role may have been the best they could be used for
Apart from tying up the RN in port

I think from Donitz's POV the war came about 5 years too soon
If Britain and France hadnt stepped in after Poland then there was no need for a huge navy as the intention was always to grab back land lost after ww1 - most if which they had by then with west Prussia ( Poland ) being almost the last - then go east
The planned expansion of the Km under Z plan would have made it a force to be reckoned with but even if the UK and France hadnt gone to war over over Poland it may have been inevitable in the long run and Britain would have stepped up its own RN expansion watching the Germans expand theirs
No one was going to stand by and watch one nation overun all of eastern europe
All whatifs though
Which is great fun

[FIREWALL]

If that fat, gay, slob would of at least protected the Bay of Biscay fewer uboats would have been lost and the brits would have been short some destroyers.

Makes you wonder a bit who Herr Hitlers lover really was.:03:

Eva might have been just for appearance sake. :yep:

[Torplexed]

I always thought Germany could have used a long range torpedo bomber similar to the Japanese 'Betty' naval bomber to good effect. Instead of U-Boats you could have had packs of planes delivering havoc on the sea lanes well out to sea beyond effective land-based fighter range. Escort carriers would have been the eventual solution for Britain but they were far more expensive and costly to build than corvettes and frigates.

But all the groundwork and research would have taken years prewar and given that Goering was in charge it probably wouldn't have gone far.

[Lt. Sven Thomsen]

If that fat, gay, slob would of at least protected the Bay of Biscay fewer uboats would have been lost and the brits would have been short some destroyers.

Makes you wonder a bit who Herr Hitlers lover really was.:03:

Eva might have been just for appearance sake. :yep:


Good question, he was always giving me weird vibes with those silky robes, fur coats, pipes and morphine.

Germany had possibly best military commanders in the world in WWII, and (with exception of Japan) by far worst commander-in-chiefs. It's like they had this little internal competition who will wage war with more fatal mistakes: Keitel, Raeder, Göring or Himmler.

Or even more probable, they were all giving their best impression of the Oberster Befehlshaber.

[Torplexed]

Good question, he was always giving me weird vibes with those silky robes, fur coats, pipes and morphine.

Germany had possibly best military commanders in the world in WWII, and (with exception of Japan) by far worst commander-in-chiefs. It's like they had this little internal competition who will wage war with more fatal mistakes: Keitel, Raeder, Göring or Himmler.
That's exactly what they had. It all started at the top. Hitler encouraged his subordinates to win his approval by competing against each other. Those who were most successful in the ruthless, bureaucratic, bootlicking fight for survival, like Goering and Himmler ended up in charge of vast internal empires. Those who didn't, like Raeder ended up retired early or in disgrace.

[Freiwillige]

I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats.

Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe.

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

[GoldenRivet]

i have nothing nice to say about that fat sweaty sausage eating swine

:stare:

[U-84]

technically if the graf zepplin was completed 100% and sent out on patrols wouldn't the planes belong to Donitz rather than goring, being that the graf was apart of the kriegsmarine. I don't get how they would belong to that fat pig.

[Freiwillige]

Well that was one major issue that was in dispute but never settled. The aircraft belonged to the Kreigsmarine but Goering claimed that since aircraft were under his Juristiction in the Luftwaffe that he should have controll of them. The Graf Zepplin was never finished so the issue was never resolved.

[GreyFox]

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

The High Seas Fleet in WW1 was scuttles by the Germans to stop them getting into Allied hands, and the British did their best to stop it with several ships being boarded by Royal Marines and several men being killed. The German government congratulated Scheer afterwards.

Also, it seems to me you believe that it would have been satisfying for Germany to win.

[rubenandthejets]

Wow, lots of anti Goering stuff here!

Yeah, OK, he was pretty useless, but back before his testicles were shot off he was a great WWI ace with machine gun smoke smeared on his face and a Blue Max around his neck. His fatty fatness really was a glandular problem.

Let's not forget he was the only one at Nuremberg who stood up and took responsibilty for his actions-"Yes, I ordered those POWs shot" etc and then gave everyone the finger by killing himself.

He pretty much knew the war was lost once the Russian front started up and from then on pretty much kept his head down and enjoyed his loot.

No, I'm not a Nazi, just a Devil's Advocate.

[A Very Super Market]

Not really. Speer basically confessed, Streicher never bothered to even try and defend himself, Seyss-Inquart was perfectly accepting of the verdict, as was Frank.

[Torplexed]

Poor Hermann. I've always enjoyed that photo where he daubs the sweat while being questioned by reporters shortly after his capture in May 1945. "So, Herr Goering tell us about your claim that if a single bomb falls on Berlin you can call me Meyer?"

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/LIFPOD/5532776%7EGerman-Reichsmarshall-Hermann-Goering-Sweating-as-He-is-Questioned-by-50-Allied-War-Correspondents-Posters.jpg

[Freiwillige]

"Also, it seems to me you believe that it would have been satisfying for Germany to win."

I would say that you are being rather presumptuous.

"And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surrender was forced to scuttle itself in Kiel the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars."

I said Imagine, Not "hey that would be great if"

I was just pointing out my opinion of how Germany could have won and the possible consequences of that victory, and for that I shall not apologize.

[Freiwillige]

After Goering's capture the interrogators and guards found Goering highly intelligent and composed with an Aristocratic nature. Very well liked. Goering faced his conviction but requested that he be shot and not hung. Being shot is an Honorable way to be executed while being hung is shamefully. When his request was denied he took poison over the hangman's noose. It is rumored that one of the American guards he befriended retrieved his German issued cyanide capsule from his belongings.

[bookworm_020]

Thats because they were used in a raider role and not in fleet actions
IF the KM heavies plus carrier had sailed together it would have made for some interesting encounters
Convoys would have had to stop or would have been wiped out

If they stayed out of range of most shore bound aircraft, it would have given them the advantage of being able to shoot down any patrol aircraft and scout for targets, as well as give warning of any approaching enemy task forces. It could have taken merchant raiding to another level.

After Goering's capture the interrogators and guards found Goering highly intelligent and composed with an Aristocratic nature. Very well liked. Goering faced his conviction but requested that he be shot and not hung. Being shot is an Honorable way to be executed while being hung is shamefully. When his request was denied he took poison over the hangman's noose. It is rumored that one of the American guards he befriended retrieved his German issued cyanide capsule from his belongings.

He was seperated from other inmates, as he was considered to be the driving force in keeping the group bound together and from admitting any guilt.

[Lt. Sven Thomsen]

If they stayed out of range of most shore bound aircraft, it would have given them the advantage of being able to shoot down any patrol aircraft and scout for targets, as well as give warning of any approaching enemy task forces. It could have taken merchant raiding to another level.

Oh, come on. It's a fact that there isn't anything better for merchant raiding than a sub, quiet and invisible. That fat hull would of been spotted the moment those Stukas took off to inspect the convoy. (Stukas, wow, that flying junkyard was obsolete before first really big aerial battle of the war. Perfect for Spain, awful for sea. It's amazing they even thought of putting them onto carriers.)

Not to even mention how large surface force does one AC pull with him to protect him from subs, airplanes, MTB's etc. etc., which again kinda goes against the concept of merchant raiding. You either have a sitting duck or a large task force that can be seen on every Brit radar on the Atlantic.

[Freiwillige]

I have to disagree with your assesment of the Stuka. It performed raids on convoys in the channel quite effectivly and would probably be on par in performance with the Japanese Val or the American dauntless.

The German evaluation of the Stuka for its suitability to be a carrier craft gave it glowing recomendations. Its undercarage was strong, It carried a suitable bomb load and had the required range. Its only real short coming would be the lack of folding wings.

Now the 109T that would have been scary.

Secondly aircraft are a far larger threat to a convoy than a submarine ever could be in WWII. Torpedo planes would have a hayday with merchants and it aint like they could run away even if they did see them coming!


Not to say that it should replace the U-boat arm, Just saying that if they could effectivly get a carrier around England and out to see, A daunting task in its own right that it would have and could have been an effective convoy destroyer that im sure would have every available ship and Sub in the Royal navy looking for her to sink cause she would have been a greater threat than the Bizmark!

[Schroeder]

I always thought Germany could have used a long range torpedo bomber similar to the Japanese 'Betty' naval bomber to good effect. Instead of U-Boats you could have had packs of planes delivering havoc on the sea lanes well out to sea beyond effective land-based fighter range. Escort carriers would have been the eventual solution for Britain but they were far more expensive and costly to build than corvettes and frigates.


But without the U-boats who is detecting those convoys in the middle of the atlantic and staying in touch with them without beeing detected until a formation of bombers is directed towards it? I don't think a bomber can do that.;)

BTW the FW 200 Condor was used for things like that but not in large numbers.

[Kapt Z]

I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats.

Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe.

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

I agree, Doenitz had a brief window there in 1939-41 where the u-boats could have really shut the door on Britain if there had been enough of them. After the US came into the war it was only a matter of time before they were driven from the seas.

Even with Britain occupied by the Germans I doubt the RN would have surrendered. They would have sailed for Canada and continued to fight.

[Dowly]

Wow, lots of anti Goering stuff here!

Yeah, OK, he was pretty useless, but back before his testicles were shot off he was a great WWI ace with machine gun smoke smeared on his face and a Blue Max around his neck. His fatty fatness really was a glandular problem.

Let's not forget he was the only one at Nuremberg who stood up and took responsibilty for his actions-"Yes, I ordered those POWs shot" etc and then gave everyone the finger by killing himself.

He pretty much knew the war was lost once the Russian front started up and from then on pretty much kept his head down and enjoyed his loot.

No, I'm not a Nazi, just a Devil's Advocate.

I dont care what he did in WWI or after the war, he had very little knowledge on how to deal with the Luftwaffe. Lot of his decisions were based on his experiences in WWI, WWII was very different war.

Also, he cared little of what happened to his pilots, one occasion I can remember was that Goering came to visit some airfield with reporters. Reports came in that there was allied raid forming, despite the clouds and fog that covered the whole german airfield, Goering ordered the squadron there to take off, just show the reporters would have something to write. The squadron commander refused, because it would've been too dangerous to take off in that weather. What did Goering do? Put the guy against the wall. Thanks to Gunther Lutzow, the man was spared as he called directly to Goering and convinced him to spare the guy.

And of course, then there's the billion cases where he called all the LW a bunch of cowards, hence the guncameras were installed so ppl on the ground could watch the later on and see if the pilot attacked the enemy in air. No matter if it was one LW plane against 2000 allied planes, he had to attack.

A real tosser of his time. :nope:

[Freiwillige]

I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats.

Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe.

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

I agree, Doenitz had a brief window there in 1939-41 where the u-boats could have really shut the door on Britain if there had been enough of them. After the US came into the war it was only a matter of time before they were driven from the seas.

Even with Britain occupied by the Germans I doubt the RN would have surrendered. They would have sailed for Canada and continued to fight.

The Royal Navy is not its own government. Like France I believe that most would do as the Parliament or his Majesty ordered. Especially if it was a peaceful end without occupation. Germany's war was never with England, England saw to it quite differently though!

[bigboywooly]

I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats.

Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe.

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.
I agree, Doenitz had a brief window there in 1939-41 where the u-boats could have really shut the door on Britain if there had been enough of them. After the US came into the war it was only a matter of time before they were driven from the seas.

Even with Britain occupied by the Germans I doubt the RN would have surrendered. They would have sailed for Canada and continued to fight.

The Royal Navy is not its own government. Like France I believe that most would do as the Parliament or his Majesty ordered. Especially if it was a peaceful end without occupation. Germany's war was never with England, England saw to it quite differently though!

I have to agree that the RN would have sailed for somewhere
Anywhere rather than surrender
IF the UK had been invaded there were still plenty of outposts left to head for

[A Very Super Market]

I have nothing to say about where the RN would go. Instead, I will talk about Stukas! :yeah:

Where to start... the Stuka did well in Poland, Norway, Denmark, France, the Soviets Union, and the early part of North Africa. In all these cases, apart from Norway, the air forces of those countries was either obliterated beforehand, weak, or non-existant. Norway was comparitively hard-fought by the Allies and luftwaffe.

When blitz started, Stukas were put to use over England. The RAF ended up relishing to see the "Doras", because they were slow, unwieldy, and completely lacking in defense. Stukas were best at supplementing land operations, where they could perform hit-and-run strikes and run away before anyone could do anything.

What does this have to do with the Graf Zeppelin? If Stukas were used by her, she would also have to carry less fighters because they took up a lot of room. Less fighters would mean that the RN could easily achieve air superiority, then shoot down the Stukas, assuming the AA guns didn't take care of them already. In a sense, for Germany to have a carrier in the first place would have been worse than having no carrier. The inevitable loss of her would have meant that all those resources would be completely wasted.

[U-84]

Early war though till probably until (if lucky) till 41, a carrier could have done a great deal of damage, providing they had planes with good range, and armament, so that the carrier could stay well away from british planes, but close enough to convoys.

[A Very Super Market]

Perhaps, but they would have to get out of Kiel with it, either going through the channel (suicide for a freaking carrier) or past Scapa (slightly less suicidal)

[bigboywooly]

The inevitable loss of her would have meant that all those resources would be completely wasted.

Were wasted anyway as IIRC ship was approx 80% complete when finally relegated to being a store room afloat

Any carrier would have had to go the route the Bismark took thru the Denmark Straits
The same way the Spee\Deutschland and Hipper went into Atlantic
But I should imagine the carrier would be watched like a hawk - as was the Bismark

Back to the Stuka
Against early war convoys it may have had some results - Zeppelin wouldnt have survived long enough to see mid war convoys I doubt anyway
Such was Goerings hold on the luftwaffe there were never any real naval aircraft I know off in planning with the exception of possibly the Fi 167
Similar to the Swordfish it too may have had some success and would have made up the bulk of the aircraft onboard - 20 to 13 Stukas ( varies by source though )

[U-84]

Perhaps, but they would have to get out of Kiel with it, either going through the channel (suicide for a freaking carrier) or past Scapa (slightly less suicidal)

Ah, good point, forgot about that...was basing my opinion of the Graf at that momment coming out of a french port.

[harzfeld]

It would be nice to see some more German aircraft carriers in SH3 to keep Allied planes out of my hair instead of just one unfinished sitting at Kiel or changing air cfg file for planes to have 1km range, lol. Hitler could have at soonest to decide which Donitz or Goering to have aircraft carriers with planes instead of their quibbling until it got too late. It probably didn't matter since they wasted too many planes over Battle of Britain & invasion of Russia. Japan could have sent some of theirs to German without starting war with United States. Seems German and Japan ally weren't that well united. I wonder why Japan didn't help German with Operation Barbarossa like German did by declaring war with United States after Pearl Harbor, which would easily got Stalin killed and conqueror Russia from west and east. In my opinion, Japan was a bad choice to have ally with, but they did have strong navy. Btw, I wonder what Goering was grinning about? The way they walked?



http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/himmlerstory09.jpg

[Kongo Otto]

I wonder why Japan didn't help German with Operation Barbarossa like German did by declaring war with United States after Pearl Harbor, which would easily got Stalin killed and conqueror Russia from west and east. In my opinion, Japan was a bad choice to have ally with, but they did have strong navy.

Because after the Chalkin Gol Incident it was clear that the Japanes couldnt stand in a fight against the Red Army.
For more information feel free to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/drea2/drea2.asp#32

[A Very Super Market]

Hell, the Japanese would need to make a supply train going through 13.1 million square kilometre through a barren wasteland, with no industries, five actual cities, and no resources. Honestly, the Soviets would hardly care. It would an extreme version of the North African campaign.

[harzfeld]

I agree Japan couldn't stand fight against Russia alone, but in game of chess, they could have wait on United States and divide half of their army & fleet out of China to Russia or all of them until after Russia is finished, then German come to help Japan with China. Its all about good strategy & timing by taking one country at a time. Russia would have to divide some of Red Army to east which should weaken their fighting strength in west against German. Stalin still refused to escape when German approached Moscow. Japan could have put some more efforts in keeping their ally alive, but in end, Japan was surrounded. It's amusing that Japan decided to attack United States when they wouldn't give German a hand. United together do bring strength which Japan did lack at.

[A Very Super Market]

No, you're not getting it.

To even have a chance at hurting the Soviet Union, Japan would have to send an army used to the temperate Islands through 13.1 million square kilometers of the harshest, coldest terrain on the planet. Attacking Russia from the west (Where all the cities are) is hard enough, how about the other direction?

[harzfeld]

That's right, I haven't thought about it. What about Japan's long range planes carry many troops to Moscow? Or mobilize their fleets to Archangel, north Russia or Leningrad if they travel thru Arctic during summer or early fall? Or them mobilize their fleets thru Suez Canal during German's East Africa campaign instead of attacking Austrilia? German did tried aid Japan, using U-boats to Indian Ocean, they had to go around South Africa since Suez Canal was under British's control that time I think. Maybe I missed some history lessons or forgot them, but it seems Japan didn't aid their allies at all. Japan could have surprise British at Gibraltar with several fleets of aircraft carriers, battleships, etc to aid German & Italy at Mediterranean Sea?

[Torplexed]

Gibraltar is a long way between refuelings for the Japanese carrier fleet and well outside the co-prosperity sphere.:03: Frankly, I don't think Japan worried too much about Germany's problems. She had too many of her own. They were both allies of convenience at best.

[TarJak]

Other than over the Kurile Is, Japan had little interest in getting involved in a major clash with Russia. they were more concerned about their Pacific campaign and could have cared less what the Germans were up to. I'm not even sure that they were allies of convenience as their cooperation was extremely limited and their interests lay in totally different directions strategically and even idealogically. About the only thing in common was that they were at war against the Allies.

[Freiwillige]

Well it is well known that during the battle for Moscow in 41' that what swayed the balance clearly in Russian favor was the release of all his divisions from the east once they figured out that Japan was not coming through Stalin's spy network.

The cold weather equiped Siberian divisions guarding against Japanese forcess in Manchuria (Note: Right on the border with Russia) were released and sent to Moscow arriving just in time to mount a counter offensive and push the Wehrmacht back.

Now about the Stuka's. Look at all of its naval conteperarys SBD's, Val's and you will see that its equivelant in performance. So your arguments against the Stuka would also have to be against the previous two mentioned (Who between them sank more carriers in the pacific than all other aircraft combined) And the British had the Swordfish, A biplane that was even slower and more outdated than the Stuka A's!

Yet they performed well against the Bizmark who had some of the best AA defenses for a ship of its day. Ships dont match planes period! Give the Stuka torpedo's and it would rip a convoy apart. AA defense's are not a convoys strong suite and were minimal at best compared to fleet ships. The only real threat Stukas would face much like the Vals and the Dauntless in the Pacific is enemy air power from enemy carriers. You also forgett that during the war Stukas accounted for 1 battle ship several heavy cruisers. And tore apart shipping in the Mediteranian sea both being flown by Italian and German squadrons. The Stuka would have done fine as a carrier aircraft.

[A Very Super Market]

I posted earlier about having to get the carrier out of Kiel first.

[Kapt Z]

That's right, I haven't thought about it. What about Japan's long range planes carry many troops to Moscow? Or mobilize their fleets to Archangel, north Russia or Leningrad if they travel thru Arctic during summer or early fall? Or them mobilize their fleets thru Suez Canal during German's East Africa campaign instead of attacking Austrilia? German did tried aid Japan, using U-boats to Indian Ocean, they had to go around South Africa since Suez Canal was under British's control that time I think. Maybe I missed some history lessons or forgot them, but it seems Japan didn't aid their allies at all. Japan could have surprise British at Gibraltar with several fleets of aircraft carriers, battleships, etc to aid German & Italy at Mediterranean Sea?

Japan was obsessed with the Pacific. Their ambitions didn't seem to reach beyond that. Allied with Germany or not they had their own priorities and stuck to them.

[U-84]

how long would it have took to build a escort carrier? COuld have built one out of french port, and and sail it out of it,

[Dread Knot]

how long would it have took to build a escort carrier? COuld have built one out of french port, and and sail it out of it,

An escort carrier might be fine for ferrying planes or ASW work. Especially where you already control the sea lanes. But shore-based or carrier-based Allied aircraft would have made mincemeat out of an Axis one alone. Given their size they don't have much of a CAP and they're not hard to sink.

[Torplexed]

Some cool pictures of the Graf Zeppelin nearing completion in late 1939.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/25083/29B9ACC52C9542F59BAC7E6AA680F0D1.jpg

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/25083/08FB3C1309084F119F5789519B11C6AD.jpg
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/25083/A5F45F02A51747DB8DE669DF2193AE35.jpg
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/25083/D7C01986114A435F97C462F11B77BCCC.jpg


She would have had a good turn of speed at 33 knots. Her AA armament would have been good, but not ideally placed, before and abaft the island superstructure, where they could only engage targets to port by firing across the flight deck and impeding flight operations. She had eight twin 5.9" guns carried in armored casemates which were needless additional weight. Sad to think she sat out the war in the Oder River 80% complete.

The big stumbling block for the Germans was their lack of previous experience with carriers and naval aviation. Unlike the Japanese, Americans and British they didn't have the benefit of a generation of trial and experimentation starting with conversions like the Hosho, Langley and the Argus. They were putting a lot of untried and new ideas (to them) in a big expensive package with the Zeppelin and the time for experimentation ran out.