Am I still cheating?

[mmm...Dönitz]

Okay, I finally got to put to sea again on Friday to try out my newly installed GWX3.0 and have my first crack at 100% realism. After initially getting off to a flying stop and not being able to hit a barn door I managed to get a couple of hits on a large cargo from about 1km out. However I had a lot more trouble with the "coastal merchants" in the torpedo training mission, manily becuse the GWX3.0 ship recognition manual doesn't spoonfeed you like the stock one does. I eventually decided that the coastal merchants were in fact Grenville type freighters and started getting hits, presumably because my range estimates were not better, however by this time I had fallen into a targeting method that makes me think I am actually still cheating a bit.

What I do is pop the periscope to check whats about, check my positon and pick a target. I note number of masts / cranes, position of smoke stack(s) and position of the superstrucure, then lower the periscope again. I then get into attack position while findng the ship in the recogntion manual.

I try to get abeam and within 1km, then turn towards the target and go to ahead slow. Raise the scope and do the range, AOB and speed.

Then... I nip down to the TDC and have a look at the plot. Here, someone (presumably my WO) is plotting out the toropedo solution AND the actual location of the target. Now I can go to manual input and tweak the solution until I am happy with it. Herein lies the rub:

Surely if I am the only person looking through the 'scope, then the plotted ship's position would only be as accurate as my own measurements? When I selected the "Realistic" setting, I noticed that the realism went to 100% but the "God's eye" option remained off. Presumably this is what allows the accurate plotting of thr ships' locations on the attack map despite my inept efforts?

What do you think? Am I still cheating?

Another question on "cheating". How realistic is the "lock" function on the 'scope? I am guessing that the only way to lock onto a ship would be after the range and speed had been acurately measured, so then the TDC could calculate and copmensate for any changes in sub or target heading, but the way things are you can pop up the 'scope and lock onto anything as oon as you see it. How is this possible? The manual suggests using "lock" when measuring speed, but I don't see how this could have been possible using the technology at the time.

While I'm on the subject, I have a few more questions about manual targetting.

1) On the attack screen, can you rotate the potractor tool so as to line up 0deg with the target's heading?

2) I read a lot about manually opening the torpedo tubes. How you you do this?

3) How do you programme a seperate solution into each torpedo? At the moment it seems like all tubes recieve the same information?

[HW3]

2) I read a lot about manually opening the torpedo tubes. How you you do this?

Use the switch panel above the WO in the command room.

[Platapus]

2) I read a lot about manually opening the torpedo tubes. How you you do this?

Use the switch panel above the WO in the command room.

Or you can hit "Q" to open up the door. It is very important to have your door open when you fire. If the door is closed when you give the order to fire, your crew will take the time to open the door first. This will cause a delay in launching your torpedo. A delay which might be too long.

[Freiwillige]

The periscope lock feature just simulates you tracking the target visually and did not actually exsist. If you wanted to do it manually you could start the speed watch wait roughly 30 to sixty seconds and then point your scope on the exact same spot on the target and hit the stop the watch again to calculate speed. As for the weapons officer position, I like to think that as I am looking down at the accurate plot my Number 1 officer is feeding me the information. Surely I cannot be two places at once!:hmmm:

[Pisces]

How german TDCs worked exactly I don't know. But I am positively sure they didn't have cameras that could do image processing to maintain a lock. The observer behind the optics would have needed to keep the line on the target in the periscope. So it doesn't seem realisitc AT ALL to me. Not to mention it forces you to limit your direction of firing. I'll explain in the end.

From what I've heard (here in subsim and other sites on WW2 submarines) the Germans didn't have a TDC that could keep track of a targets position automatically 'internally'. The crew would have needed to feed it current data for an update of it's aiming, of which bearings would be most important. The Americans did have a TDC that could update target positions (and provide aiming data for it) automatically based on it's mechanical 'memory'. Infact it had a function called "Position Keeper". You might want to do a search in the different forums here on TDC history for more info. Keep your eyes peeled for posts made by Hitman. He's pretty much our expert here on this kind of technology.

When it comes to the Silent Hunter 3, the TDC it's not very smart. It can only keep track of AOB based on changed bearings, like moving the periscope/UZO viewing direction. (once you change course the device is helpless in aiming.) But this actually makes it flexible if you want to target multiple ships, ...poor Sh4 players. The other dials are needed to make aiming corrections for an 'exact' hit.

If you lock the scope the torpedo will allways be aimed to go to the mid-ship of the locked target. But why should it? I like to aim at the front mast or somewhere near it's rear. Or rather, I like to set up the periscope direction in advance and wait for any location to pass through the aiming line. 'Midship' because I could be uncertain of my aim? Hell no!, with propper settings anyone can hit spot-on. I think the only reason you 'need' to lock is (a software technical reason) for the recognition manual to pass-on the target ID to the Notepad for range measurement. (Ok, also during the speed measurement, but it really shouldn't be forced upon the user.) When that is done there is no need to lock. Until you need to range another (un-IDed) target.

This Sh3 tdc gives a gyro angle (for torpedo to turn) input to all torpedos. But not all are fired. So only those that are fired, are sent in that direction (with or without spread). The key is not to lock the scope. Then aim the scope where-ever and the torpedo goes there. (well, actually to the future position of whatever is 'there'.) The only thing to consider is the right setting for the range dial of the TDC. This can be different some kilometers in convoys. Since speed and course is constant (we hope that anyway), only bearing and range defines where the torpedo actually steers to.

I hope that clears up some of your questions.

[mmm...Dönitz]

Thanks for the replies. :)

So… The periscope lock feature, while not historocally accurate just makes your life a bit easier when tracking a target - plus it seems like you don't actually need to use it. I'll try a few speed measurements with and without.

My main concern is now the validity of modifying my targetting solutions at the TDC (where someone is magically plotting the ships' locations in real time) to compensate for my currently inept estimates of range, AOB and speed.

[Pisces]

My main concern is now the validity of modifying my targetting solutions at the TDC (where someone is magically plotting the ships' locations in real time) to compensate for my currently inept estimates of range, AOB and speed.
The stock manual targeting procedure is too dependand on a correct guess of AOB for good results. Range is usually accurate if the ID is good and you lined the level up with the waterline and propper end of the mast (instead of just where the pixels end, because of the limits inherrent of rendering them). Not much to guess there. But speed measured (even when locked) is completly dependend on the accuracy of the range and guessed AOB in the former steps. Only allowing speed in steps of 1 knot is not helping either. Speed and AOB are THE MOST important variables in leading the torpedo..

If you really want to pursue manual targeting further I would advise you to investigate/install the Ujagd tools or OLC Gui targeting mods. Or rely more on plotting on the map to get your data. Those mods and manual plotting is much more representative of the real german optics and procedures used. And every data needed for the procedure can be measured with them, not just estimated.

[Hitman]

From what I've heard (here in subsim and other sites on WW2 submarines) the Germans didn't have a TDC that could keep track of a targets position automatically 'internally'. The crew would have needed to feed it current data for an update of it's aiming, of which bearings would be most important.

Correct, the german TDC had no automatic position keeper, unlike their US and british counterparts, but it could update the solution following the movement of the optics. When the Kaleun or IWO asked the TDC operator to set it in "Lage folgend" (AOB following) mode, the TDC bearing dial was directly linked to the scope or UZO, and moving them updated the solution correspondly. When set to "Lage nicht folgend" (Not AOB following), a blue lamp lighted and the TDC accepted inputs in all its parameters, (Distance, AOB, Spread, target length...) plus it did no longer follow the optics. SH3 has therefore a very good representation of the german TDC :|\\ except that our home computers calculate the solutions nearly instantly (See what I explain next) unlike what the real tool was able to do.

I like to set up the periscope direction in advance and wait for any location to pass through the aiming line

That's basically what was done in WW2 U-Boats, not just because of the convenience of being able to aim at different parts of the ship, but also because the TDC was an analogue mechanical calculator and it took some seconds for it to provide the proper solution (At that moment a lamp was lit to show the solution had been created) after a change in any of the inputs. Obviously simply moving the optics (bearing) allowed for faster update than if changing other inputs, but still it was considered better to shoot at a fixed, pre-chosen bearing with a fully calculated solution.

My main concern is now the validity of modifying my targetting solutions at the TDC (where someone is magically plotting the ships' locations in real time) to compensate for my currently inept estimates of range, AOB and speed.


The most relevant factor here is speed, AOB is important but not that much (And also depending on the relative position of target and attacker, f.e. a 80º AOB instead of a 90º one is not as important as a 20º to a 30º error). Distance to target will only matter if you do angled shots. The Gyro Angle indicator on your scope screen is not causally there: The closer you are to a zero GA when shooting the less will distance matter. See my post about convergence here to understand it better: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121744

Also, speed and AOB will be less relevant the shorter the distance to the target. German commanders went really close before shooting, always as close as possible (Less than 1000 metres) and as much perpendicular to the target as they could, and that minimized errors in calculating/estimating target data.

[mmm...Dönitz]

Also, speed and AOB will be less relevant the shorter the distance to the target. German commanders went really close before shooting, always as close as possible (Less than 1000 metres) and as much perpendicular to the target as they could, and that minimized errors in calculating/estimating target data.

I think I'm finding the same thing! :) I did quite a lot of torpedo practise last night and although I can get hits on larger targets from over 1km away, the smaller ones I'm still missing.

I'm also now using the protractor tool on the navigation map to measure AOB while trailing about 1km back, about 130deg AOB port or starboard. I'm getting a lot closer, but for this type of shooting I need to close the range a bit more. I'm also only using the attack plot to check my solutions, not to adjust them.

I went to bed furious that I’d missed a coastal merchant moving at only 2knots from the stern tube, 700m range, zero gyro angle. Turns out that I've been compentating for my shots tending to hit further aft of my aiming point, so I've been aiming slightly ahead, or right on the bow, to compensate. Unfortunately I failed to appreciate that on a simple shot with accurate TDC data this would make me miss :)

I'm still hooked :)

[Hitman]

Turns out that I've been compentating for my shots tending to hit further aft of my aiming point, so I've been aiming slightly ahead, or right on the bow, to compensate.

Aiming ahead (leading the target) is something that can end up being very intuitive with practice :) Otto Kretschmer reportedly sunk some ships with the not very scientific method of raising his fist and saying "When the target is hidden by my fist, we will shoot". Obviously he had a good seaman's eye for estimating velocity triangles mentally, but again it is something that practice makes better. :yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

First off, WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny: Love your screen name.:rock:

I eventually decided that the coastal merchants were in fact Grenville type freighters and started getting hits, presumably because my range estimates were not better, however by this time I had fallen into a targeting method that makes me think I am actually still cheating a bit.
Glad your getting hits that way, especially since they are not Granville freighters at all, but 1960-ton 'Tramp Steamers' (unless I'm thinking about something else, or more likely not thinking at all).

As has been said, the scope could not lock at all. On the other hand all the captain had to do was look through it and keep it centered on the target, which is much more difficult with a mouse or computer keys than it was in real life, so it's not cheating so much as faking the real thing.

1) No. There is the 'Bearing Tool' which gives you a compass that moves with your boat, but not the target.

2) 'Q' key. You can also open all the tubes from the switchboard in the Weapons Officer's position (up above the chart table), conning tower (on the bulkhead) or the outer Attack Scope position (look down).

3) The only way I know is to reprogram the bearing for each torpedo.

[mmm...Dönitz]

First off, WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny: Love your screen name.:rock:

Thanks. :) Its something that has always popped into my head whenever I hear Donitz is mentioned in a documentary on TV.

Glad your getting hits that way, especially since they are not Granville freighters at all, but 1960-ton 'Tramp Steamers' (unless I'm thinking about something else, or more likely not thinking at all).

Hmmm. I tried the tramp steamer as an alternative, but I didn't get any better results. I'll give it anohter go.

As has been said, the scope could not lock at all. On the other hand all the captain had to do was look through it and keep it centered on the target, which is much more difficult with a mouse or computer keys than it was in real life, so it's not cheating so much as faking the real thing.

Yep, I found the same thing last night, so I'm justifying it to myself as a legit workaround for not having a fake scope hooked up to my PC as an input device!

By they way, if there are any modders listening in, I think it would be cool to have the WO repeating your range, AOB and speed settings as you work them out and then update them. The vocals for the numbers are already there, so you would just need new phrases for "Speed" (probably already in there too), "Range" (also included for contact reports, I think) and "angle off bow".

[Galaga Galaxian]

Just for my own observations, are you using the Notepad method of manual targeting or what the SH3 Community Manual calls "Full Manual TDC" (http://alexbret.perso.cegetel.net/index1fac.html?title=Manual_Targeting) (bottom of page), where you completely ignore the notepad and manually calculate range, speed and AoB using the navigation chart?

I prefer the second one because it has the advantage of working better in rough seas as well as the fact you don't really have to identify the target completely to get a good solution (though it does help for determining spread angle and running depth).

Plus it feels more "manual" to me, though since it relies on the "God's Eye View" setting left on, I'm not really sure which is more realistic. I suppose the truth is somewhere between both methods.

[mmm...Dönitz]

Well, when I first started this thread I was pretty rubbish at getting any decent data into the TDC using the notepad. Ffirstly I was identifying the ships wrongly (apart from the really obvious ones) as the descriptions changed after GWX was installed. I found that by getting a solution from the periscope station I could then nip down to TDC and check that it looked sensible (asking my WO for confirmation, if you will ;) ) If it was totally bonkers, rather then going back up for another look I slipped intot he habit of tweaking the solution from the TDC station.

Your link to the SH3 community manual doesn't work, but I think that now I may be doing the Full Manual Targetting thing. Now what I do is pop up the scope and take a look around until the nearest ships appear on the navigation map. I then put trhe scope down and place markers on each ship before hey fade away. I then start to manouver towards my attack position at persicope depth. After a minute or so I raise the scope again, place new markers on the map and lower it. Based on how far the target has moved and its course I then pick a location for my attack well ahead of the target's current location. At this stage it all goes a bit wrong if I can't outrun the target while submerged, so I try to be ahead of the target by the time I've taken the second sigting.

I use the protractor tool to run a line through the two markers, extending out to where the ship will be when I want to attack, then I construct a second line at 90 deg from than point to where I want my sub to end up when I shoot (if that makes sense). With this construction on the map I set course for my chosen firing point. When I get there I turn 90deg to the target's course and stop engines. En route I set an AOB of 90deg into the TDC.

I raise the scope to take a third sighting and to check that the ship is on course. I can also now use the distance markers on the nav map to measure the range, which I also put into the TDC. The only missing bit of info is the target speed, so I go through the normal manual targetting process once quickly to get this figure, but I don't click the tick mark to send the data to the TDC. Once I have the speed the scope goes down again.

Back at TDC I set the range using the distance markers from the nav map, the AOB to 90deg, and the speed from the reading taken at the scope, and the other torpedo settings. Then I turn manual data entry off again to lock the gyro angle adjustment to the 'scope bearing.

Then its just a case of raising the scope and waiting for the target to pass in front of me. Sounds long-winded writing it all down but I'm getting quite fast at it, provided that I can get far enough in front of a target.

I'm happy that what I am doing is "real" enough because for the initial observations to get the points on the map I can pretend that my #1 is doing the spotting while I plot the markers on the nav map. Getting into firing position is all down to me, plus I have to make at least one manual TDC calculation to get the speed, even if I enter all data into the TDC manually.

[Galaga Galaxian]

Yeah, that is pretty much the "Full Manual TDC" I meant. However here is a tip for you.

If you wait exactly 3 minutes and 15 seconds (195 second) between marks, the distance a target covers in hundreds of meters is their speed in knots when multiplied by ten. Example: in 3m15s a ship covers 600 meters (0.6km), their speed is 6 knots. I'd suggest taking two or three such readings as the target closes to make sure the timing is correct.

[mmm...Dönitz]

Top tip! Cheers :)

[java`s revenge]

Nobody talks about the great olc mod. :wah:
Targeting with this realistic tool is much easier.

[bigboywooly]

No such thing as cheating anyway
YOU play the way YOU want to

Never bothered to learn manual targetting as never really before now played a serious career as always modding\testing etc
Really must give it a go