Need Some Clarification, AoB and TDC

[Captain Hill]

All:

I've enjoyed the treasure trove of info on this board and I'd like to thank all for their contributions. I have read and studied many of the tutorials, especially related to TDC and such, but I still have a slight problem and a few minor questions. If anyone can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it. here is the order in which I am setting up a firing solution.


I view the target in my scope and lock (L) on to it.
I engage the position keeper (PK); is this too early?
I calculate AoB by using the navigation map and "protractor" -- drawing a line from in front of the target (along it's path of travel) to the center of the target and then to the center of my sub, giving the AoB.
I then enter the AoB into the TDC and send data
I then use the stadimeter(sp?) to calculate distance (the correct shadow seems to appear even if I do not choose the correct ship from the recognition manual) and send to the TDC.
I wait five to ten seconds and use the stadimeter(sp?) again and send to TDC.
I then calculate speed of target on the TDC and send to TDC.
I fire my torpedo (torpedo doors aleady opened).Questions --

By the time I am ready to shoot, the AoB has invariably changed. Has the PK kept track of this? Is it necessary to update the AoB?
Am I engaging PK too early? What is the PK doing for me if not updating the AoB automatically?
Am I fooling myself by NOT using the recognition manual and making sure I choose the correct ship from the manual and send to the TDC (even though the shadow on the stadimeter(sp?) is the correct one)?Reason -- My torpedos seem to be way off in their track, I experience a high degree of misses, even at close (1000 yd) range.

[Hmuda]

I view the target in my scope and lock (L) on to it.
I engage the position keeper (PK); is this too early? I don't think so. As long as you update the bearing after all data are put in, it should be fine (as long as they are accurate). So don't forget to get one last distance measurement the last time, just to be completely sure.

I calculate AoB by using the navigation map and "protractor" -- drawing a line from in front of the target (along it's path of travel) to the center of the target and then to the center of my sub, giving the AoB.
I then enter the AoB into the TDC and send data
I then use the stadimeter(sp?) to calculate distance (the correct shadow seems to appear even if I do not choose the correct ship from the recognition manual) and send to the TDC. The shadow is not taken from the manual, but an actual "mirror image" of what you see in the periscope. If you use incorrect mast height (using a PT boat for the Yamato for example :D) then you'll get incorrect results.
I wait five to ten seconds and use the stadimeter(sp?) again and send to TDC.
I then calculate speed of target on the TDC and send to TDC. I would wait longer, much longer. 5 seconds is way too short time and if you manage to get the slightest error in determening the two positions, it will give you some wildly inaccurate results. The longer you wait, the smaller the posibility of an error. In the torpedo tutorial mission I know the cruiser is sailing at 9-10 knots, yet I still get 8-13 knots sometimes, even after a minute of waiting.

I fire my torpedo (torpedo doors aleady opened).Questions --
By the time I am ready to shoot, the AoB has invariably changed. Has the PK kept track of this? Is it necessary to update the AoB? The PK is useless without all the necessary data (speed, bearing, AOB, distance). It's very important to do some kind of confirmation about the precision of your solution. I would sugest you use your attack map, wait a few minutes (or seconds depending on your situation) and then check where the PK thinks your target supposed to be with the priscope. If they match, your solution is fine. If not, then some fine tuning is in order. There is a more accurate method by using the PK's second dial. I'll try to get around to it alter.

Am I engaging PK too early? What is the PK doing for me if not updating the AoB automatically? The PK does what it's name suggests, keeping the estimated position of the target based on the data typed in. If the data is faulty then the readings will be way off. I suggest you leave a larger time period between estimating the target's distance to get a more accurate reading on the speed/heading (you can use the heading to determine the bearing as well, just use the secondary dial for refrence on the target's AOB indicator on the PK window).
Am I fooling myself by NOT using the recognition manual and making sure I choose the correct ship from the manual and send to the TDC (even though the shadow on the stadimeter(sp?) is the correct one)? Hm. Yes. If you use incorrect mast height, the distance readings will give you very-very wrong results.EDIT: the pros are free to correct me if I got something wrong, of course. :)

[Captain Hill]

Hmuda,

Thanks for the quick reply! I am looking forward to correcting my faux pas with regards to the Recognition Manual-TDC situation. I see what you mean by the difference between the shadow I see and what the TDC thinks I am tracking. Ditto on the speed estimate -- I will start waiting a bit longer between stadimeter checks.

I'll get back to you on how I do with your suggestions.

It sucks that closer you are to the target, the more drastically the AoB changes per unit time. I guess gthe AoB should be updated last before firing immediately thereafter.

[BTW -- The attack map is nice, and I don't use it to set up shots, but as you suggested I use it to see if I was close AFTER I've shot. Until now, I've been dejected at what I was seeing.]

Again, many thanks!

[Captain Hill]

Hmuda,

I reread your answer and I missed an important follow-up question. In training on your suggestions it would be helpful to see if the PK accurately predicts where the ship should be and then checking it with the periscope.

Question -- On the attack map, what symbol defines where the PK thinks the ship is? Is it the white X?

[Hmuda]

Hmuda,

Thanks for the quick reply! I am looking forward to correcting my faux pas with regards to the Recognition Manual-TDC situation. I see what you mean by the difference between the shadow I see and what the TDC thinks I am tracking. Ditto on the speed estimate -- I will start waiting a bit longer between stadimeter checks.

I'll get back to you on how I do with your suggestions.

It sucks that closer you are to the target, the more drastically the AoB changes per unit time. I guess gthe AoB should be updated last before firing immediately thereafter.

[BTW -- The attack map is nice, and I don't use it to set up shots, but as you suggested I use it to see if I was close AFTER I've shot. Until now, I've been dejected at what I was seeing.]

Again, many thanks!Sure thing mate. I would suggest you practice on the torpedo tutorial. That's where I got my basic knowledge. :)

It's a pretty hassle free environment with nice amount of time allowed to set up your shot.

About the attack map, it can be useful. That's the place where you can get a graphical confirmation about the accuracy of your solution.

The attacks are all about patience. Don't fire your shots immediately after your solution si ready. Take some time to confirm your calculations, check everything twice. Only fire if you're completely feel you are ready.

[Hmuda]

Hmuda,

I reread your answer and I missed an important follow-up question. In training on your suggestions it would be helpful to see if the PK accurately predicts where the ship should be and then checking it with the periscope.

Question -- On the attack map, what symbol defines where the PK thinks the ship is? Is it the white X?Sorry about the EDIT, it's a bad habit of mine. :know:

Yes, the X is the position of the ship and the white line supposed to be the direction it's heading. If you allow me I'll come back with a more precise method of measurement about the accuracy of the solution that does not involve the map and tedious measuring of angles.

[Captain Hill]

If you allow me I'll come back with a more precise method of measurement about the accuracy of the solution that does not involve the map and tedious measuring of angles.

I'm always interested in a new method of determining accuracy of solutions. Fire away if you have the time.

Regards,

Dan

[Hmuda]

Here's the thing I promised.

http://www.sg.hu/galeria/986752963/9867529631232554288.jpg

http://www.sg.hu/galeria/986752963/9867529631232554296.jpg

http://www.sg.hu/galeria/986752963/9867529631232554301.jpg

Hope it helps.

Just a sidenote: I heard that some people have problems with this dial as it can lock up at 0 degrees. Make sure your game is patched to the latest version, just to be sure. I never encountered this bug, but that doesn't mean it can't be there.

[Captain Hill]

That's great info! I was trying to ascertain the meaning of those dials and such. Now I know a little bit more!

Now, looking at your last screenie -- some time has passed since you made your initial TDC calculations/input. No doubt between the time you entered AoB and the time you confirmed your settings the target's AoB has changed, yet you haven't updated your AoB -- so is it safe to assume that if accurate data is entered into the TDC initially (bearing, AoB, speed and distance) and then confirmed as you indicate, that the TDC is properly updating the torpedo's track to intercept the target?

This is fascinating stuff.

[Hmuda]

That's great info! I was trying to ascertain the meaning of those dials and such. Now I know a little bit more!

Now, looking at your last screenie -- some time has passed since you made your initial TDC calculations/input. No doubt between the time you entered AoB and the time you confirmed your settings the target's AoB has changed, yet you haven't updated your AoB -- so is it safe to assume that if accurate data is entered into the TDC initially (bearing, AoB, speed and distance) and then confirmed as you indicate, that the TDC is properly updating the torpedo's track to intercept the target?

This is fascinating stuff.Yes. If the PK is turned on and the solution is correct then the torpedos will use the automatically updated solution based on the PK's estimation. It will update the AOB all by itself, but of course that requires a pretty accurate AOB to be used in the first place.

There is also a method to check your target's AOB without scribling on the map (very useful when the map updates are turned off). When you make the second distace measurement and get the estimated speed, you'll also get the target's estimated heading, based on it's relation to 0degrees (north). On the upper dial on the PK, you'll notice two dials as well. The outer dial is the "true compass" for your target's position (you get this after you measure the distance which combined with the bearing pretty much gives you the position). The inner dial is your target's heading (aka AOB). Now based on the heading you got after the sencond measurement, you can fine tune the AOB by matching the inner dial's 0degree to the outer dial.

On my pictures you can see that the heading I put in was ~98 degrees. So if after the second distance measurement you get a speed of X and a heading of - let's say - 168, then you simply adjust the AOB dial and keep updating the solution until you see that the inner dial's 0 marker is right above the outer dial's 168 mark. At that point you - assuming the measurements were fairly acurate - you'll have the target's AOB without that tedious measuring on the map.

But don't get me wrong. Using the map can be much-much-much more accurate, but for starters, I would suggest you use this method.

There are a few very neat tricks detailed in THIS (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795) thread that does not require the use of the PK. If you feel secure about your manual targeting using the position keeper, then I suggest you start looking into these methods as they can be very rewarding if pulled off correctly.

[Captain Hill]

This keeps getting better and better! I am going to pull into port and undergo some additional training before setting out on my next patrol.

Thanks, Hmuda!

[Hmuda]

This keeps getting better and better! I am going to pull into port and undergo some additional training before setting out on my next patrol.

Thanks, Hmuda!Don't mention it, glad to be of help. :)

[Captain Hill]

Hmuda, I wanted to get back to you and let you know that your help has been invaluable. My hits are way up, thanks to you. I am using the AoB method you suggsted, where I adjust the AoB dial to get the target's 0-degree indicator to point to its heading on the outer dial. Awesome.

I still need practice quickly identifying ships when they are not quite 90-degrees to me (shortened profile), but I am getting there!

May you find calm waters and unescorted conveys! :D

[Hmuda]

Hmuda, I wanted to get back to you and let you know that your help has been invaluable. My hits are way up, thanks to you. I am using the AoB method you suggsted, where I adjust the AoB dial to get the target's 0-degree indicator to point to its heading on the outer dial. Awesome.

I still need practice quickly identifying ships when they are not quite 90-degrees to me (shortened profile), but I am getting there!

May you find calm waters and unescorted conveys! :DGlad to hear of your success. :)

[Captain Hill]

Hmuda,

One more favor. Without gunking up my computer, what are your most recommended MODs which will work with SHJIV:Gold Edition (U-Boat Campaigns)? If it makes any difference, I don't intend to use the U-Boat expansion (at this time).

Dan

[Hmuda]

My personal favorite is "Trigger Maru Overhauled" with the "Run Silent, Run Deep Campaign" mod.

Actually, Trigger Maru is concentrated on the US campaign, but it's good to have the UBM expansion installed and then you'll be able to use the latest version of the mod. Without that you can only run an older version.

It changes an awful lot of things, expanding the number of commands, goes a long way towards realism (more dud torpedoes for example), makes the game much nicer, etc.

There is also another huge contender called "Real Fleet Boats". Never tried it myself, but I heard that it's taking realism to the extremes. Perfect for the enthusiasts. :)

You can find all of these in the mod forum's stickies.

[Captain Hill]

Again, many thanks, Sensei! :yep:

[Hmuda]

Hehe, you're welcome. :)

[Rockin Robbins]

Captain, I didn't want to butt in while Hmuda was giving you great advice, but I'd like you to spend some time over at the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795) thread. I think you'll find a lot of neat stuff.