Two more critics of Vladimir Putin take bullets in the head

[Onkel Neal]

ANOTHER RUSSIAN fighting for human rights and the rule of law has been murdered in Vladimir Putin's Moscow. Stanislav Markelov, a lawyer who defended Chechens brutalized by Russian troops and journalists who wrote about the abuses, was shot in the head yesterday by a masked man carrying a silencer-equipped pistol. An opposition journalist who tried to intervene, Anastasia Baburova, was also fatally shot in the head. This occurred in broad daylight, on a busy street in central Moscow less than half a mile from the Kremlin. It was another demonstration that assassinations are a dominating feature of political life under Mr. Putin's regime.

The larger story here is of serial murders of Mr. Putin's opponents, at home and abroad. Ms. Baburova, 25, is at least the 15th journalist to be slain since Mr. Putin took power. No one has been held accountable in any of the cases -- including that of Anna Politkovskaya, a former client of Mr. Markelov who also was murdered execution-style in broad daylight, on Mr. Putin's birthday in 2006. In London, dissident former KGB agent Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned; so was Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, who survived. Karina Moskalenko, another opposition lawyer who has represented Ms. Politkovkaya's family, fell ill from mercury poisoning in Strasbourg, France, in October, just before a hearing in the case. Last week in Vienna, a Chechen dissident who had received political asylum was murdered on the street -- shot twice in the head.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/19/AR2009011902604.html

Wow, Russia, you really are making progress...

You know, I'm shocked not to find more outrage here in GT about this. I mean, George Bush is gone, so I would think his courageous, outspoken critics would turn their sights on some other act of atrocity. I mean, there is still some bad stuff in the world with Bush gone, isn't there?

Well, yeah, I mean, ya know, dude, we have to keep fighting the eveel Amerikuns, you know.We don't have time to fight cuddly Mr Putin, and Chavez, Kim Il jung, or Akmehadexahdez at the same time....those guys don't merit our attention...

[UnderseaLcpl]

Wow, Russia, you really are making progress...

You know, I'm shocked not to find more outrage here in GT about this. I mean, George Bush is gone, so I would think his courageous, outspoken critics would turn their sights on some other act of atrocity. I mean, there is still some bad stuff in the world with Bush gone, isn't there?

Well, yeah, I mean, ya know, dude, we have to keep fighting the eveel Amerikuns, you know.We don't have time to fight cuddly Mr Putin, and Chavez, Kim Il jung, or Akmehadexahdez at the same time....those guys don't merit our attention...

Oh, I have plenty of outrage about it. I'm outraged that we aren't taking advantage of the situation through economic dominance via free-market policy.

And surely, you wouldn't believe that liberal Bush-bashers are going to focus on this kind of stuff. After all, the media hasn't told them to vent their outrage about it yet. Don't you remember? Genocide against Kurds in Iraq is okay, but toppling the Baathist perpetrators isn't. And btw, they don't care if the U.S. leaves the country and paves the way for Shiite Muslims to massacre Sunni Muslims. They care about American soldiers, but not enough to stop encouraging extremist agressors whose entire strategy is to undermine the American people's will.

I hope you're prepared to watch as almost every single act of "incompetence" under Bush is repeated or exacerbated under Obama with little to no criticism.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I'm sure you're aware that we're travelling that familliar path.

[joegrundman]

oh cool! another "aren't liberals rubbish" thread.

We haven't had any of these recently

[Sea Demon]

oh cool! another "aren't liberals rubbish" thread.

We haven't had any of these recently

Liberals are merely accountable to their own words and deeds. I know liberals don't like it but tough crap.

[Hunter]

Working with press and living here in Russia I am always wondering how media in general and western one especialy manages to pervert facts and wash brains with far going 'analisys' on 'Putin's regime' just as soon as another freaky jornalist or a businessmen with criminal bakground dies due to involvement with former Olgarchs business, Chechen mafia and other dirty things. Anna Pulitkovskaya, once used to be famous by its freaky articles in support of Chechen insurgents, both of above sponsored by Boris Berezovsky who had profitable drug, weapon and diamond business with then Chechen President Dudaev, former Beresovsky's chef of security Alexander Litvinenko, once again Beresovsky's Georgian bisines partner and personal enemy of Michail Saakashvilli who had to escape from Georgia after competeting in election campain Badry Patarcazishvilli, and even Ukrain president who was poisoned during drinking Vodka all night long vis-a-vis his own cheif of National security service must be realy 'democratic' leaders who endangered 'bloody KGB' regime esteblushed in Russia by Vladimir Putin. And 34-years old lawer Stansilav Markelov, and Anastasia Baburova, who is called 'An opposition journalist' while realy started her journalist carrier just 3 month ago, being a second year student, must be acctually a heavyweight persons to make Putin to order assasinate them causing widespread reaction in press. Nonsence![quote]ANOTHER RUSSIAN fighting for human rights and the rule of law has been murdered in Vladimir Putin's Moscow. [\GUOTE]After 08.08.08 we have a joke here in Russia that the only human rights protection organization in this part of world is Russian Army, which grants peace, living and dignity for about 150 million Russians and other former Soviet citizens rulled by various freaks. :)

[Sea Demon]

After 08.08.08 we have a joke here in Russia that the only human rights protection organization in this part of world is Russian Army, which grants peace, living and dignity for about 150 million Russians and other former Soviet citizens rulled by various freaks. :)

Yikes!! I hope for your sake and ours that is only a joke.

[Hunter]

[quote=Hunter]Yikes!! I hope for your sake and ours that is only a joke.
As Russians say each joke has its share of hummor :)
(as well as its share of thuth obviously)
other human rights organisations acting in Russia proved themselves throught 1990s to protect everyone's reghts except co-citizence ones. They could do everything with Russian population in Chechnia and some of of former Soviet Republic prohibit language, withdraw civil rights, pasports, rape, enslave, kidnap, cut throats etc, but noone of those rightwhatchers said a word against it. For them it was always the government guilty for implementing force to protect citizens.
Neither they didn't said a word against oligarchy and coruption which florished during Yeltsin term in office and have stolen most profitable nationional industries making millions people job- and homeles within 1991-93. But they always stand against Putin who established certain rules in economy and national administration (you have to pay taxes and stay loyal to the country. Otherweise, there is no reason for your business just steal national resorces), and regained control over economy from the gangsters, and made the whole system to progress with more or less success. Unfortunately, it is still based on his own authority and there is no grant that if he retire the chair won't be occupied by a person who thinks about his own pocet rather than about the nation. And I bet that if such person would came to power in Russia, it would be imidiately called a truly democratic leader in western media. But, right now we need a strong leader who could finish all that mess and keep national administration working. Concidering, popularity of Russian Prime Mnister and misirable authority of opositon among population, it is hard to believe that there are any reason to kill anyone.

[XabbaRus]

I must admit that the killing is sad and given that he was a lawyer working on human rights cases (the one in particular I think was successful in that he got jailed, albeit later released) is always going to get press attention.

I think what the western press and people forget is that it isn't just human rights lawyers and journalists who criticise the government that get murdered. They are just the most high profile. There have been quite a few lawyers murdered for running cases against businessmen not connected with the Kremlin, I'd say more so. Also the statistics that X number of journalists have been killed since Putin came to power is a ridiculous statistic. All it says is that being a journalist in Russia is risky. It does not mean Putin has ordered the murders as is insinuated.

Back to this guy Markelov. Yes he did good work. Reading about Budonov he is an evil twisted guy who, did get tried and imprisoned. You know if it was embarrasing to Putin he could of been released or not tried by his order but wasn't.

Now he must have friend somewhere but look at it this way. Markelov got him put away. He is released and upset, being who he is he knows people or has money to pay a hitman (Not hard in Russia). Due to the case they know where Markelov is and gun him down. Notice they only went for him. The woman was hurt trying to grapple with the gunman (this to me suggests not a professional KGB style hit but a revenge style paid for killer). So lets stop the Putin ordered it.

[Dowly]

I mean, there is still some bad stuff in the world with Bush gone, isn't there?

No, not really. :p

[Skybird]

He is not the first critical voice being intimidated or killed, and won'T be the last. How far Putin is directly or even just indirectly responisble for it, is simly this: unknown. There are a lot of business interests and government-loyal oligarchs rallied around the Kremlin who are capable to act on their own, without needing to get presidential orders to kill somebody threatening them with his public criticism. I stick to what I always said: I know a lot of far, far worse dictators in the present, and in history, and I see no alternative for Russia in the forseeable future to the strong hand leading the nation from the top. for us outsiders, it is not to criticise that, or demand they must do like we want them to do, or think they should wish to do like we imagine they should. Putin is incredibly popular in Russia, never forget that - he is what many Russians want, you like it or not. And for us foreigners, we should focus on the simple fact that we have strong interest in aa stable Russia, this is of paramo8nt importance, and this is what we should focus on most. Everything else diminishes in comparison to this: stability in Russia. Because that means a predictably acting Russia, where the military is under control, the many different ethnicities between the Baltic and Kamchatka do not break apart in civil wars and independence movements, and oligarchs may come to wealth, but not to such political power again like it was the case under more democratic but weaker Yeltsin.

Live with it, Neal. Your put up indignation is unconvincing, since you want political conditions that make Russia more vulnerable again to American interest-pushing in russia and in the world as well, like it was possible under Yeltsin. But as I see it, the Russians have neither any obligation nor any intention to act in your favour and by that violating their own vital interests. As was to be seen repeatedly in the past 6 months.

I wonder if Obama will carry on a course of provoking Russia, or not. Their international cooperation is much more important for both Europe and the US, than is the question of their government system. that after having been lied to, having been betrayed and provoked and ridiculed and been given promises that were broken time and again, Putin has changed his once West-friendly political attitude and now is convinced that the West can only be dealt with if meeting it from a position of enough Russian strength to keep it at arm's length, is understandable after the past 10, 15 years. The man has changed, no doubt. But that is not by random chance, but is more a logical reaction.

If you want to worry about tyranny and injustice, look at the genocide in Kongo - much of it accepted by Western companies (last but not leats American companies), because the ethnic conflict touches vital economic supply interests of the West with very rare ores as well, needed for our high tech and electronic industries without which there would not be any electronic board components and newly produced PCs. Now that link is something worth to be upset about. "Brussel's and Washington's heart of darkness", somebody has called it.

Anyone...?

[Onkel Neal]

for us outsiders, it is not to criticise that, or demand they must do like we want them to do, or think they should wish to do like we imagine they should.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Double standard. If it's Bush or America, criticize. Anyone else, even if they are truly as bad or worse than you imagine the US is, hands off.

[Skybird]

for us outsiders, it is not to criticise that, or demand they must do like we want them to do, or think they should wish to do like we imagine they should.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Double standard. If it's Bush or America, criticize. Anyone else, even if they are truly as bad or worse than you imagine the US is, hands off.
Bush has caused the misery and suffering and death of far more people than Putin. Under bush, the Us detoriated and lost in power, wealth and prestige and trustworthiness. Under Putin, the middleclass got moderate gains in wealth, and modest wealth is spreading for more people in Russia than ever before in Russian history, while he called the oligarchs to discipline by showing them an iron-gloved fist. If you want to compare the record of Bush with that of Putin, Bush loses by a huge margin. Now that is some tough pill to chew on for you, eh? Double standards it is if seeing the splinter in the other's eye, but not the beam in one's own eye. Your nation after the past 8 years is in no position to hold moral lectures to other people and nations. Get off that high horse and clean your own house before pointing at the dirt of others. The negative legacy of Bush weighs multiple times heavier than that of Putinistan - and all the world must pay for your failures currently. And all too often foreign people must die for it, too.

[Kapt Z]

You just can't keep an old KGB guy down....:nope:

[Onkel Neal]

Interesting, when you have to resort to Bible scriptures to make a point. ;)

Still, thank you for conceding my point. I guess Putin is an angel.

[Skybird]

I guess Putin is an angel.
Do you? Well, I don't.

[XabbaRus]

I think they way it is being looked at is simplistic. Looking at the press reports there are plenty pointing the finger and deploring how human rights in Russia and press freedoms are curtailed.

This isn't about US does something and is criticised anyone else and that is OK.

There have been plenty other regimes criticised in the press apart from Bush.

The thing with this killing is that it is all to easy to immediately point at the Kremlin whenever someone prominent is killed, without there being proof of direct or indirect proof. There is also a fundamental misunderstanding in the press on how things work in Russia. There are more people than just Putin who want to keep snooping journalists out. That is how screwed up in someways things are there.

I don't think Putin is lily white but at the same time I think the press has found it too easy to see Russia as an enemy.

[OneToughHerring]

Interesting, when you have to resort to Bible scriptures to make a point. ;)

Still, thank you for conceding my point. I guess Putin is an angel.
Well what is the US prepared to do about the issue besides having it's citizens bitching and arguing about the issue on the Internet? Oh wait...did I hear you say "nothing"? When you take a closer look you'll see that US and Russia are in a kind of loose union that allows both to mess with the nations and groups of people they wish just as long as they leave each other alone. It's how it's been for a long time.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Well, I think the stereotypical view of Russia is becoming dangerously accurate.

[longam]

The Dude has as many NUKES as we do, so we cant just walk in and slap him.

[SteamWake]

We don't have time to fight cuddly Mr Putin, and Chavez, Kim Il jung, or Akmehadexahdez at the same time....those guys don't merit our attention...

Of course these are 'tiney' countrys which are insignifigant.

[Onkel Neal]

Interesting, when you have to resort to Bible scriptures to make a point. ;)

Still, thank you for conceding my point. I guess Putin is an angel.
Well what is the US prepared to do about the issue besides having it's citizens bitching and arguing about the issue on the Internet? Oh wait...did I hear you say "nothing"? When you take a closer look you'll see that US and Russia are in a kind of loose union that allows both to mess with the nations and groups of people they wish just as long as they leave each other alone. It's how it's been for a long time.

Clearly, you missed the whole point of my arguement, Herring. When you take a closer look at my initial post, you'll see I was not talking about a US response or a response from the general citizenry of the US.


Of course these are 'tiney' countrys which are insignifigant.

Yeah, well, so was Germany in 1933. :)

[August]

Well what is the US prepared to do about the issue besides having it's citizens bitching and arguing about the issue on the Internet? Oh wait...did I hear you say "nothing"? When you take a closer look you'll see that US and Russia are in a kind of loose union that allows both to mess with the nations and groups of people they wish just as long as they leave each other alone. It's how it's been for a long time.

What I think we should do is resign from Nato and the UN and let you Europeans deal with the bear on your own. After all you do share a continent with them and they are it's dominant power. Seems reasonable to me that they should rule you.

Call it the Monrovitch doctrine... :yep:

[SteamWake]

Of course these are 'tiney' countrys which are insignifigant.

Yeah, well, so was Germany in 1933. :)

In case you dident know this but that was a quote from Barock O. during his early days of the race.

[OneToughHerring]

Well what is the US prepared to do about the issue besides having it's citizens bitching and arguing about the issue on the Internet? Oh wait...did I hear you say "nothing"? When you take a closer look you'll see that US and Russia are in a kind of loose union that allows both to mess with the nations and groups of people they wish just as long as they leave each other alone. It's how it's been for a long time.
What I think we should do is resign from Nato and the UN and let you Europeans deal with the bear on your own. After all you do share a continent with them and they are it's dominant power. Seems reasonable to me that they should rule you.

Call it the Monrovitch doctrine... :yep:

Well we're already dealing with 'the bear' here in Finland, and we aren't a part of Nato so you may as well stuff that too. ;)

One of the reasons Finland needs a conscription military is because of the relatively large geographical size of Finland. It's commonly thought that Finland could defend the Southern Finland with just a professional military. It is the large expanses of Central and Northern Finland that require a larger reserve and conscripted military. As if conscription alone would produce 'super winter guerillas' to defend Lapland against an aggressor such as Russia. Kids these days don't even know how to cross-country ski.

But no Nato for Finland. :)

[XabbaRus]

Well, I think the stereotypical view of Russia is becoming dangerously accurate.

The stereotypical view of Russia is wrong. I lived there for a good few years.

If you believed everything the press read you'd think Russians couldn't walk out their front doors for some reason or another.

It was interesting actually how in the early 90's Russia was poortrayed as some sort of Wild East with a sense of the romantic about it (a la the wild west) a myth that I think has been perpetuated and turned into something darker.

[Dowly]

Well what is the US prepared to do about the issue besides having it's citizens bitching and arguing about the issue on the Internet? Oh wait...did I hear you say "nothing"? When you take a closer look you'll see that US and Russia are in a kind of loose union that allows both to mess with the nations and groups of people they wish just as long as they leave each other alone. It's how it's been for a long time.
What I think we should do is resign from Nato and the UN and let you Europeans deal with the bear on your own. After all you do share a continent with them and they are it's dominant power. Seems reasonable to me that they should rule you.

Call it the Monrovitch doctrine... :yep:

Fine by me. After all, Russia tends to keep to itself these days. And now that you dont have to worry about our Europeans, may I suggest going to Africa? There's few dictators there that could use a shot in the head. No? Ow wait, now I got the whole "Freedom comes with a price" thing! If the country has nothing of use to America it cant have a share of the freedom and democracy you so eagerly are spreading to the world? :p

[Hunter]

Just took a closer view to a head line of this topic Two more critics of Vladimir Putin take bullets in the head
Neal as you have called this topic in such way, can you tell us in what part those two were critisising Putin's administration?

[Rockstar]

The Dude has as many NUKES as we do, so we cant just walk in and slap him.

"Yeah, well, The Dude abides."


all he wants is his rug back.


http://planetross.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/the_big_lebowski___jeff_bridges1.jpg

[kiwi_2005]

The Russians do it out in the open, the CIA do it in secrecy.:hmm:

[Stealth Hunter]

We don't have time to fight cuddly Mr Putin, and Chavez, Kim Il jung, or Akmehadexahdez at the same time....those guys don't merit our attention...

No, we really don't. And we don't have the money either. We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China, and to top it off, our military is dwarfed by the size of Russia's and nothing compared to Korea's fanaticism. Besides that, our economy is still unstable, we haven't even begun pulling troops out of Iraq, and we have just gotten a new president. We've got enough to worry about at the moment. How do you expect to be the world's policeman if you don't solve your own problems first?

[SUBMAN1]

The Dude has as many NUKES as we do, so we cant just walk in and slap him.That is no longer the case. However, let's just say he still has enough to where it still doesn't matter. That might be a better way to put it.

-S

[Kapitan]

How about america shuvs its big nose out of russian problems and deals with its own for a change, dont you just hate people who try to get involved in a problem that has naff all to do with them.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

How about america shuvs its big nose out of russian problems and deals with its own for a change, dont you just hate people who try to get involved in a problem that has naff all to do with them.

Welcome to global politics :p

[Kapitan]

Well, I think the stereotypical view of Russia is becoming dangerously accurate.

The stereotypical view of Russia is wrong. I lived there for a good few years.

If you believed everything the press read you'd think Russians couldn't walk out their front doors for some reason or another.

It was interesting actually how in the early 90's Russia was poortrayed as some sort of Wild East with a sense of the romantic about it (a la the wild west) a myth that I think has been perpetuated and turned into something darker.

Good point i think you should visit the country it is nice and yeah the people do complain about it.
But i dare you to go upto one of them and slag the country off i bet you get an all to gether diffrent responce from them.

These people mind thier own buisness something americans find hard to do hence why they get thier nose put out of place alot of the time, russia has a potential and i think they have the ability to use it, and win.

[Onkel Neal]

Just took a closer view to a head line of this topic
Quote:
Two more critics of Vladimir Putin take bullets in the head
Neal as you have called this topic in such way, can you tell us in what part those two were critisising Putin's administration?

I copied the title from the article.

Anyway, my point was not to slag off on Russia, it was to highlight the hypocracy of the peaceniks, activists, and nonstop critics of the US. They are mum about the real evils in the world. As for Russia, I've been there many times, they have a long history of this stuff, it's no surprise.


How about america shuvs its big nose out of russian problems and deals with its own for a change, dont you just hate people who try to get involved in a problem that has naff all to do with them.

haha, like all the non-Americans here who constantly talk about US business, US economy, US politics, US military, etc etc etc :lol:

[Onkel Neal]

We don't have time to fight cuddly Mr Putin, and Chavez, Kim Il jung, or Akmehadexahdez at the same time....those guys don't merit our attention...

No, we really don't. And we don't have the money either. We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China, and to top it off, our military is dwarfed by the size of Russia's and nothing compared to Korea's fanaticism. Besides that, our economy is still unstable, we haven't even begun pulling troops out of Iraq, and we have just gotten a new president. We've got enough to worry about at the moment. How do you expect to be the world's policeman if you don't solve your own problems first?

You're right, I didn't phrase that very well. I did not mean to imply the US govt should fight those tyrants, I meant that the people who squeal about how bad Bush/the US is never make a peep about the real problems, like these dictators and their human rights abuses. The only time these people mentioned Saddam Hussein was when the US called him to account.

[August]

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China

I call bull to that statement. Care to back it up?

[Aramike]

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China

I call bull to that statement. Care to back it up?It is bull. It's called a "trade deficit". Hardly debt.

[August]

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China
I call bull to that statement. Care to back it up?It is bull. It's called a "trade deficit". Hardly debt.

Maybe not, he might be talking about government bonds or something I suppose...

[Stealth Hunter]

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China

I call bull to that statement. Care to back it up?

Sure thing August.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-tepper-marlin/the-us-10trilliondoll_b_67196.html

Oh, here's a few things on the Chinese and Japanese. In total, lenders from Japan and China hold 47% of our debts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

:up:

[August]

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China
I call bull to that statement. Care to back it up?
Sure thing August.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-tepper-marlin/the-us-10trilliondoll_b_67196.html

Oh, here's a few things on the Chinese and Japanese. In total, lenders from Japan and China hold 47% of our debts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

:up:

But neither of those links actually confirm your statement SH. Please show me where it says that we owe $10 trillion dollars to Japan and China.

[Stealth Hunter]

We owe $10 trillion total, and China and Japan account for 47% of the said amount. I never said the $10 trillion was totally to China and Japan, though.

[August]

We owe $10 trillion total, and China and Japan account for 47% of the said amount. I never said the $10 trillion was totally to China and Japan, though.

You said:

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China

That is a fairly direct statement and now you are saying it's actually less than half of that?

[Stealth Hunter]

The point was we have $10 trillion worth of debt total, and China and Japan account for most of it. Glad we cleared that up. Now, back to the topic.

[Stealth Hunter]

We're over $10 trillion in debt to Japan and China

I call bull to that statement. Care to back it up?It is bull. It's called a "trade deficit". Hardly debt.

Federal debt is $10 trillion.

[August]

The point was we have $10 trillion worth of debt total, and China and Japan account for most of it. Glad we cleared that up. Now, back to the topic.

Well that's certainly not what you said originally and FWIW 47% is not the "most" of anything. Since you seem to have a penchant for exaggeration and obfuscation, at least be honorable enough to admit it when someone catches you at it.

[Skybird]

In a longer piece of docu on radio this late evening, they said that now all points at ultranationalists having ordered the assassination, and that most foreign observers do not have the Kremlin or Putin on their list of suspects, but that these nationalists were the top suspects from the beginning. It also would not have been the first assassination of too stubborn journalists these ultranationalists have ordered. that makes sense considering the role of ultranationalistists in the wake of the Beslan massacre and their attitude towards Chechnya - and the killed journalist having been engaged with researching on Beslan.

[AntEater]

I suppose this system works similar to the "Fememorde" in the 1920s in Germany.
Right wing organisations killed people involved with the treaty of Versailles.
The state had nothing to do with it, but many individuals sympathized with the perpetrators. If somebody was caught, he could expect a mild sentence.

A similar system is the "deep state" in Turkey, where people critical of the turkish state usually drop dead.

Strange how Americans usually think of other countries as some kind of monolithic block with a single will, while in reality their internal politics are as complex and diverse as those in the US.
I mean if somebody shot Michael Moore during the Bush administration, would the world have blamed it on Bush?

[Onkel Neal]

I mean if somebody shot Michael Moore during the Bush administration, would the world have blamed it on Bush?

Yes, you included.

[Skybird]

I would have assumed Cheney had a hunting day again. :smug:

[antikristuseke]

Had Moore been taken care of during the bush administration, it would have been one of the best things to have happened in those 8 years.

[Onkel Neal]

I would have assumed Cheney had a hunting day again. :smug:

I think Cheney already had his maximum for the year :)

[Frame57]

Guys like Putin are why guys like Ian Fleming are famous....:D

[XabbaRus]

Putin wasn't even that great as an operative given that his spy ring got busted in no time.

The point is though that at the moment whenever a journalist gets killed in Russia it is laid immediately at the feet of the Kremlin. During the Yeltsin years journalists were being killed as well.

The thing that gets me is that no one ever looks behind the motives of some of these journalists.

Take the current scandal with the Lords who have alleged to have accepted money to make amendments to laws. From what I understand it was a sting with journos pretending to be lobyists setting them up.

[CaptainHaplo]

Two points here.

First - This cannot be laid at the feet of Putin or the Kremlin in general. The fact is there are MANY groups in Russia fighting for power. These range from politicians and government, to corporations, mafia and the "free" press itself. However, to claim that Russia is "staying home and not bothering anyone" as Dowly said - is blatently false. Look at the Ukraine - heck - look out how Russia just recently forced a renegotiation for gas that almost shut down heat to half of Europe. It wasn't long ago that Russian forces invaded a former soviet state. Note its FORMER - they didn't want to be part of the "greater soviet empire". Which leads to the second point.

I understood Neal's point very clearly. For the past 8 years we have had many come on here and bash America, its policies, and its actions. Some posters were citizens of the US, others were not. Almost invariably, the criticism was centered around George Bush and his "conservative" views. *Calling him conservative is definitely NOT accurate however*

The point being made was that so many want to come here and bash our home - a country that - while some of us may not agree with its path - we love and hold dear, same as many of you do with your nations. Yet as soon as the "evil george bush" (who was legally elected via our constitutional process) is gone, we are told by these same people, again both foreign and domestic, that every other country and government should never even be glanced at, much less be put to outside scrutiny. Sorry - but that is the definition of hypocritical. And - to top it all off - these same people - particularly those residents of other countries - come here to TELL US what we are supposed to do - which is NOT TELL ANYONE ELSE what to do. Funny - your coming here to tell us not to do exactly what your here doing. And then you can't see the hypocrasy?

As for the comment that the evil george bush caused more death and harm than the dictators of places like Iran, Iraq, China, etc..... Apparently the liberal drug policies of europe have finally had the affect intended - killing every usable brain cell in the citizenry. Saddam Hussein and his sons were responsible for many genocidal acts while in power. Iran currently is training and supplying insurgents that are in Iraq and (thru Syria) hezbollah who targets civilians as well. But hey, we can ignore that right? Not to mention the civilian repression that is rampant in places like Iran, Korea, China, etc.

What's even funnier is these same people and countries they are from stand idly by while genocide in Darfur occurs. After all - its outside their borders - it doesnt matter. Where has the EU been since Darfur started? Oh - but you point the finger at us as if its our job to stop all the messes in the world - then when WE don't act you claim "well your selective about freedom based on whats in it for you". Again - I don't see the EU having a strong force there in the last year to stop it. Why? Because its not important to you - but its ok to point at someone else to say we are bad because we didnt go fix it while you all sit home lazy, fat and happy.

OK - so its been more than a couple of points. Here comes another.

Yes our public debt is somehere near 10 trillion. So for all the domestic liberals who screamed about bush spending way too much - how come I don't hear you all screaming about Obama's admission that his FIRST YEAR in office his budget will increase the deficit by 20% - or 2Trillion more. If that were to stay the same for 4 years - he will have grown the deficit by more than 150% above what the evil george bush did.
*For reference - when George Bush took office in 2001 the Public Dept was around $5,674,178,209,886.86 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_U.S._public_debt

While I agree that George Bush was no friend to the economy or the public debt, if Obama doesnt increase his budgets one dime in the next four years - he will have added 8 Trillion to the debt in 4 years - almost DOUBLING it in one term. But hey, all you "Obama is the savior" people, I guess facts dont matter.

For the record, I didn't like most of Bush's policies either. He was however, right on Iraq - though he handled it all wrong once the decision was made. He was wrong on the economy, illegal immigration and trade though.

[MothBalls]

Back to the original topic.......

Russia has always had the Alpha Male mentality. They do what they think is best for Russia, everyone else be damned. If you disagree you end up on the side of a milk carton or on the business end of an assassins silencer. If you're a Russian reporter and you haven't figured out that you can't get away with American journalism in Eastern Europe, then you're life expectancy will be shorter than your smarter counterparts.

<looks over shoulder> I agree with everything Putin says and does.

[Kapitan]

Back to the original topic.......

Russia has always had the Alpha Male mentality. They do what they think is best for Russia, everyone else be damned. If you disagree you end up on the side of a milk carton or on the business end of an assassins silencer. If you're a Russian reporter and you haven't figured out that you can't get away with American journalism in Eastern Europe, then you're life expectancy will be shorter than your smarter counterparts.

<looks over shoulder> I agree with everything Putin says and does.

Thats a shame i was just polishing my dragnov

[XabbaRus]

Well one it is only a select few who come here and bash the US, two Russia forcing the negotiations. Ukraine didn't pay its bill, it got cut off when it refused to pay the price everyone else was paying. That happens if I don't pay my gas bill when they put the price up.

Most of us don't bash the US.

I understand what Neal is saying but Russia gets enough criticism. The truth be told though half the journos in my opinion who report on Russia don't know jack about what they are saying, especially the BBC but they went down the pan a long time ago s*****g the c*** of the PC brigade.....