Manual Targeting problem

[jason210]

So far I have missed every torpedo shot.

So I'm practicing in a harbour with own ship, and all targets stationary.

In the TDC, I set speed and AOB to zero.

My periscope angle is 321 degrees, locked on a target.

When I send the data to the TDC, the gyro angle set's itself 316 degrees, so, when I fire, the torpedo misses by, guess what? 5 degrees.

I have no offset or anything. Nor can I see anything obvious that should make this torpedo be off by 5 degrees.

Any ideas?

[jason210]

Ok, I found that by setting the range maximum and sending ut to the TDC changes the gyro angle...but in reality it shouldn't affect the gyro angle if the speed of both ships is stationary!

Anyway, even though I found a way to alter the gyro angle, the torpedo is still missing the target. And I've used this method successfully many times in earlier Silent Hunter versions.

Seems to be the "track angle" that's throwing it off, and I don't know where that data is coming from...

Have RFB installed if that's anything to do with it?

Damned annoying.

[Fincuan]

Your range is wrong. When gyro angle is anything but zero range starts to matter, since your periscope is a good 50 meters behind the torpedo tubes.

[jason210]

Your range is wrong. When gyro angle is anything but zero range starts to matter, since your periscope is a good 50 meters behind the torpedo tubes.

Ok..thanks. I'll give it a shot..

[jason210]

Ok, that seemed to be the problem.

New problem is that the torpedo's are now passing underneath the target, even though I set the depth to like 5ft when target was a subchaser with a keel depth of 7ft.

Is this a RFB feature? That torpedoes as unreliable as hell? Or I am doing something wrong?

jason

[jason210]

This is doing my head in. One target, stationary, 600 yards, 90 degree attack with zero gyro angle.

Fired six torpedos. Everyone either missed or was a dud.

Re-loaded the scenario (took like 5 minutes) and repeated with same result.

I set all the torpedos to the minimum depth and almost all passed beneath the target, except perhaps for two, which were announced "Duds".

[Pisces]

I set all the torpedos to the minimum depth and all passed beneath the target, except the two that hit, which were Duds. No more options. If I can't set the torpedo depth I might as well give up!That was the problem in real-life, so accurately modeled. Blame the Admirality.

[jason210]

Ok. But if it was a problem in real-life then it means subs couldn't sink anything with a keel depth of less then (guessing) 7 ft.

It's also a bit demotivating if, after three hours of firing torpedos at stationary subchaser in Shanghai harbour, I can't sink her. What hope is that at sea, with waves and moving targets?

I think I'll ram some junks on my way back, out of spite.

[RSColonel_131st]

Regards range and gyro angle, it becomes even more obvious that bearing trough periscope differs from gyro angle when you take into account that the torps go straight for a few seconds before turning onto their track. Distance between periscope and turning point of the torp track is what makes range matter (likely less an issue for targets far away as both lines start converging.)

[jason210]

Regards range and gyro angle, it becomes even more obvious that bearing trough periscope differs from gyro angle when you take into account that the torps go straight for a few seconds before turning onto their track. Distance between periscope and turning point of the torp track is what makes range matter (likely less an issue for targets far away as both lines start converging.)

Thanks. This did occur to me after Fincuan made his point earlier - I did not know it had been modelled in the game, or rather, I assumed that we didn't need to think about it.

I'm glad this modelled accurately. I just wish there was an easy way to reset the TDC so that torpedos just fired straight.

[Pisces]

Ok. But if it was a problem in real-life then it means subs couldn't sink anything with a keel depth of less then (guessing) 7 ft.

It's also a bit demotivating if, after three hours of firing torpedos at stationary subchaser in Shanghai harbour, I can't sink her. What hope is that at sea, with waves and moving targets?

I think I'll ram some junks on my way back, out of spite.Perhaps the luck-factor comes in somewhere to help you. But yeah, depressing it is, ... and mostliky was for those commanders. There's nothing else to do but accepting it as a fact of (virtual) life if you want to play as real as it gets. If not, then there's allways realism settings.

[RSColonel_131st]

I'm glad this modelled accurately. I just wish there was an easy way to reset the TDC so that torpedos just fired straight.

It's easier on the german boats with the controls on the attack map, but for US subs: Set target speed to zero, periscope to 000, and then transmit range once (can be any range, you don't even have to have a ship in the crosshairs).

Sending range always also transmits bearing to target, which becomes 000, speed to zero means that no gyro angle is set, and AoB doesn't matter either at 0 knots.

Now your tubes are set to fire straight ahead the direction your bow is pointing - same for the aft tubes, but with periscope at 180.

On the german boats, all these controls are on the attack map and do not require the periscope to be pointed.

As for your depth problem, most ships I see on german campaign are merchants with well below 3 meters keels. Your sub-chaser is a bad example for practice I think, historically setting the torp to run at zero depth worked for US Commanders (at the risk of the torp breaking trough the waves).

[Fish40]

Have you tried the Dick O'kane method of targeting? It works wonders, providing you are 90 degrees to your target, and you have an accurate target speed. Range dosen't matter with this method, and no PK is used.

As for the deep running torpedoes, they were indeed a historical problem early in the war, particularly for the Mk14. RFB portrays this shortcoming accurately (IMO). I set my torpedo depth to 0' on early Mk14s

[jason210]

I'm glad this modelled accurately. I just wish there was an easy way to reset the TDC so that torpedos just fired straight.

It's easier on the german boats with the controls on the attack map, but for US subs: Set target speed to zero, periscope to 000, and then transmit range once (can be any range, you don't even have to have a ship in the crosshairs).

Sending range always also transmits bearing to target, which becomes 000, speed to zero means that no gyro angle is set, and AoB doesn't matter either at 0 knots.

Now your tubes are set to fire straight ahead the direction your bow is pointing - same for the aft tubes, but with periscope at 180.

On the german boats, all these controls are on the attack map and do not require the periscope to be pointed.

As for your depth problem, most ships I see on german campaign are merchants with well below 3 meters keels. Your sub-chaser is a bad example for practice I think, historically setting the torp to run at zero depth worked for US Commanders (at the risk of the torp breaking trough the waves).

Thanks.

[jason210]

Have you tried the Dick O'kane method of targeting? It works wonders, providing you are 90 degrees to your target, and you have an accurate target speed. Range dosen't matter with this method, and no PK is used.

As for the deep running torpedoes, they were indeed a historical problem early in the war, particularly for the Mk14. RFB portrays this shortcoming accurately (IMO). I set my torpedo depth to 0' on early Mk14s

Not sure if I've tried the Dick O'kane method, but if I have I wasn't conscious of it.

I do know how to fire a torpedo straight forward out of the tube so that it hits a moving target. I made a simple torpedo calculator for this but you need to estimate the heading, speed and range of the target. My instrument then gives you a periscope angle. You just look through the periscope until that target passes that angle, then fire.

Works a treat and avoids gyro angles and tracks and all that...

[Soundman]

As I'm sure you have figured out by now, larger gyro angles from close range will not work well, as the fish does not have the time to turn quickly enough. You will find it helpfull to always keep the gyro angle as small as possible to increase accuracy. Welcome to the world of manual targeting! Hang in there, with more experience will know what's possible and what's not. Also, Make sure you click the TDC inputs twice. Don't ask me why, you just need to. That may also be a factor in your inaccuracy. Just try a manual TDC input and click once while observing the Position Keeper. Then, click again...you'll see it update once again. Just one of those goofy things!:yep: :doh:

As for the fish running underneath, the Subchasers are the only boat I've come accross that runs too shallow to hit. I don't even attempt it any longer.

[Munchausen]

Just try a manual TDC input and click once while observing the Position Keeper. Then, click again...you'll see it update once again.

;) One click updates the torpedo gyro ange. The other click updates the torpedo impact point.

[Shado]

Hi there,
I am not sure about the depth, I try to set it as shallow and does ok, I know that they model the run time before the torp will activate and detonate. I think it is 3 or 400 yards. If it hits something that is too close it will just bounce off like a dud. I am not sure of the excate run time or yardage. If it is longer than 600 yards that might be what is happening. Hope you can understand my rambling, if not ask again and I will try to explain it better

good hunting
:lol:

[I'm goin' down]

If you want a good course on manual targeting, read Hitman's tutorial. After you use it, you can shortcut the time by using the SCAF mod. Hitman's tutorial, once practiced, will teach you a lot.

[jason210]

Hi there,
I am not sure about the depth, I try to set it as shallow and does ok, I know that they model the run time before the torp will activate and detonate. I think it is 3 or 400 yards. If it hits something that is too close it will just bounce off like a dud. I am not sure of the excate run time or yardage. If it is longer than 600 yards that might be what is happening. Hope you can understand my rambling, if not ask again and I will try to explain it better

good hunting
:lol:

Thanks. It's not the distance - it was about 900 yards I was using. They also bounce of if the angle it hits the ship is wrong, and also...if they are duds. I thought I'd turned off duds but may be RFB uses them anyway.

[jason210]

If you want a good course on manual targeting, read Hitman's tutorial. After you use it, you can shortcut the time by using the SCAF mod. Hitman's tutorial, once practiced, will teach you a lot.

Ok, thanks where do I get it?

[I'm goin' down]

Here is the title to his tutorial. My tutorial for 100% realism manual targeting. Also, search under Hitman.

[XLjedi]

Just try a manual TDC input and click once while observing the Position Keeper. Then, click again...you'll see it update once again.

;) One click updates the torpedo gyro ange. The other click updates the torpedo impact point.

Agreed, you gotta click send data twice... I've been hitting moving targets using the technique mentioned in this thread: How did I miss? (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146894)

However, the game device used to send data to the TDC has been a little disappointing; particularly when switching to stern torpedos. :nope:

We really need an Attack Map TDC input mod.

[Rockin Robbins]

Just try a manual TDC input and click once while observing the Position Keeper. Then, click again...you'll see it update once again.
;) One click updates the torpedo gyro ange. The other click updates the torpedo impact point.
Agreed, you gotta click send data twice... I've been hitting moving targets using the technique mentioned in this thread: How did I miss? (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146894)

However, the game device used to send data to the TDC has been a little disappointing; particularly when switching to stern torpedos. :nope:

We really need an Attack Map TDC input mod.

Naw, it's just different, not better or worse. I think we need to resist turning SH4 into SH3. U-Boats and Fleet Boats should be different.

[XLjedi]

Naw, it's just different, not better or worse. I think we need to resist turning SH4 into SH3. U-Boats and Fleet Boats should be different.

No, I can definitely say it's worse.

I'm not recommending installing a uboat TDC on the fleetboat. I just want the fleetboat TDC input gadget available on the fleetboat attack map! That has nothing to do with uboat vs. fleetboat, it's just overcoming a gross shortcoming in the game user interface. The TDC/PK on a fleetboat would still be a fleetboat TDC/PK.

Also, the thing should update all data points in the solution track when you click the send data button ONCE. Unless someone can point out why it would be useful for PK input strategy to have it work the way it currently does?

And... Right now, if you have a solution for a forward tube and then you switch to a stern tube and then double-click send data with the correct AoB, the solution track doesn't update for the stern tube. You have to change to distance and click that also before it starts registering as a shot from the rear. Now that just seems stupid. :88)

The fact that so many people like the DoK method of targetting (dismiss the PK and TDC altogether) says a lot about how good the interface is. "I'd rather shoot torpedos straight out the bow than use that thing."

[Munchausen]

Right now, if you have a solution for a forward tube and then you switch to a stern tube and then double-click send data with the correct AoB, the solution track doesn't update for the stern tube. You have to change to distance and click that also before it starts registering as a shot from the rear.

I'm not getting that. At extremely close ranges, the TDC goes nuts, yeah. But I've tested a "switchover" at ranges from 1,100 yards to 600 yards without problem. I've even done it without changing from forward to aft tubes ... the trick being to always rotate the scope or TBT to an appropriate bearing for your setup.

[XLjedi]

Right now, if you have a solution for a forward tube and then you switch to a stern tube and then double-click send data with the correct AoB, the solution track doesn't update for the stern tube. You have to change to distance and click that also before it starts registering as a shot from the rear.

I'm not getting that. At extremely close ranges, the TDC goes nuts, yeah. But I've tested a "switchover" at ranges from 1,100 yards to 600 yards without problem. I've even done it without changing from forward to aft tubes ... the trick being to always rotate the scope or TBT to an appropriate bearing for your setup.

It is possible I may not have rotated the scope, so perhaps the solution would be impossible and therefore it doesn't register. I'll check that, and thanks for the reminder. :up: But still the TDC at least should register a rear launch (I would think) regardless of where I'm pointing the scope. I think I have changed the scope though... I'll have to check it tonight and post back with a play-by-play so we're on the same page.

When you say the TDC goes nuts at close ranges... In my case, I've usually disabled a vessel to speed zero and now I just want to cruise past it and launch a final fish from a stern tube to finish her off. In which case, it wouldn't be unusual to be in the 500m range. Are you sayin it goes nuts on a stationary target inside of 500?

[Munchausen]

When you say the TDC goes nuts at close ranges... In my case, I've usually disabled a vessel to speed zero and now I just want to cruise past it and launch a final fish from a stern tube to finish her off. In which case, it wouldn't be unusual to be in the 500m range. Are you sayin it goes nuts on a stationary target inside of 500?

It can. Usually, I'll set up the TDC as I maneuver into position ... either that or use the stadimeter once I'm set. If it's a canned setup, I'll fool the TDC by plugging in a range long enough to get a good reading. If it's a stadimeter setup, I'll move away from the target until the TDC reads good.

If I know the target is dead in the water and time is limited (e.g. a DD is headed my way), I'll turn on PK, take a stadimeter reading ASAP, and position myself for the quick kill. As soon as the setup looks good, I shoot. The key phrase being "looks good" ... ergo, waiting until the TDC is no longer within any cone of confusion.