The Case of Admiral Graf Spee

[Contact]

Today I was watching documentry on Graf Spee fate. Really sad one.. I wonder how come it could not leave Montevideo for Buenos Aires and try to negotiate time there with Argentina government to make full repairs.
Under the Hague convention of 1907 warships could stay in neutral harbour for 24 hours maximum. So if there was impossible to make negotiations for repairs it could of at least stay in Plate estuary changing harbours Montevideo-Buenos Aires; Buenos Aires - Montevideo every 24 hours. Mean time damaged Graf Spee could send request to Berlin for support. I think if Gneisenau with Scharnhorst from north atlantic had had orders to steam south for support, Kriegmarine could avoid first major blow in history :hmm:

[Raptor1]

Wasn't the Graf Spee blockaded (Or, rather, deceived to be so) right outside Montevideo? At which case it would have to run the gauntlet to get to Argentina

[Contact]

I thought it was cornered in the esentuary only without ability to leave it for the open ocean ?
Since Montevideo and Buenos Aires are in the same Plate esentuary this tricky action could be possible ?

[AntEater]

Wouldn't have been possible:
1. British put pressure on Argentina and the rest not to allow the Graf Spee at all.
2. Any kind of relief operation was not possible either. Keep in mind that at the time the two battleships were basically Germany's only resemblance of a battlefleet and 1939, german admirals pretty much thought as in WW1. To leave the german coast without a battleship force was unthinkable.

Also, Gneisenau and Scharnhorst were turbine ships who had a high fuel consumption, a sortie to south america would've been logistically impossible. Even the north Atlantic operation of the two required serveral covert tankers and we're now talking twice the distance.
The only support thinkable was another pocket battleship, but Admiral Scheer was in overhaul at the time while Deutschland/Lützow had suffered engine damage on her north Atlantic operation and was not available either.
Not to mention that the whole operation would've been over before a support ship was there, also this support ship would just have become another hunting object.
Auxilliary cruisers/merchant raiders were the only other Kriegsmarine ships suitable for operations in these areas (long range submarines were not yet available) and those could not hope to fight a battle against warships.

I don't know why everybody always applauds Langsdorff. He saved all of his crew, ok, but he wasn't supposed to be a humanitarian primarily but the commanding officer of a warship which germany could not replace.
If he felt a return was not possible, the best course of action would've been to sail into combat and cause as much damage as possible, as the irreplacable ship was lost anyway.
Another thinkable option would've been to sail to Argentina and sell the ship to the argentine Navy.
I suppose this would not have cause Argentina to join the Axis, but would've tipped political balance in latin america anyway.
And in contrary to the namesake of his ship, Langsdorff faced far better odds than Spee, but of course he thought otherwise.

All in all, even if Langsdorf had sortied and one or serveral british cruisers, the end result would've been the same except for a german propaganda victory.
The RN could replace cruisers, germany couldn't.
When two years later Admiral Scheer returned from the indian ocean, they had a good radar firing solution on a RN cruiser in the Denmark straits without being noticed (night and bad weather), Kapt. Krancke chose not to engage.
Sinking a RN cruiser would've been a major victory, but he could not risk his irreplacable warship suffering a lucky hit and getting sunk in return.

[Contact]

Understood.. However if salvage was not possible I think Germany had to put more effort in finding friendly dialog with Argentina, despite the pressure from Brintain.
Sell ship to Argentina was a sane option too.
But captain himself was too soft, he felt guilty about crew lifes, disinformation of heavy naval British forces waiting outside the esentuary did an impression of escape impossible too.

At the end if I was a captain I would engage in battle anyway. Rather then shoot myself in the head :-?

[Raptor1]

Don't forget that, as far as Langsdorff was concerned, the British force outside the harbor was composed of at least 4 cruisers, a Battlecruiser and an aircraft carrier, he would never have even managed to seriously damage the enemy before being annihilated, I don't think it's wise to sail into a battle which cannot be won and will not gain anything

IIRC the British cruisers were steaming around (And making a ton of excess smoke) right outside the harbor, but I could be wrong...

[TarJak]

At the end if I was a captain I would engage in battle anyway. Rather then shoot myself in the head :-?I'm sure your crew would understand! :arrgh!:

[Kapt Z]

Don't forget that, as far as Langsdorff was concerned, the British force outside the harbor was composed of at least 4 cruisers, a Battlecruiser and an aircraft carrier, he would never have even managed to seriously damage the enemy before being annihilated, I don't think it's wise to sail into a battle which cannot be won and will not gain anything

I would agree. Why waste the lives of your crew if you thought the fight would be hopeless and only give the British cause to brag about sinking your ship in battle. I'd expect to lose almost your entire crew in that kind of fight anyway.

[A Very Super Market]

Graf Spee had some pretty serious engine damage anyways, and couldn't go much farther from Montevideo. Here is my understanding of the situation.

Graf Spee- Chased by 3 cruisers mistook to be destroyers. Damage appeared superficial, but ended up causing a great deal of engine trouble. Stuck in Montevideo. Her view: A large British fleet had been called up by the 3 cruisers. In fact, the only ship nearby was a County class cruiser (Still a tough fight)

Exeter- York class cruiser, basically a smaller County class with less guns. Ravaged by the Graf Spee and in bad shape. Managed to damage Graf Spee enough to deny her the fuel needed to go back to Germany. A hulk.

Ajax- Leander class cruiser. Destroyer guns on a sturdier frame. Moderately damaged, including a turret out of action, but still capable.

Achilles- Same cruiser as Ajax, took damage to mast, guns were fine.

Cumberland- Slow, old, but heavily armoured County (Kent) class cruiser. Undamaged and fresh. Same guns as Exeter. No torpedoes.


I doubt that the Graf Spee could fight its way out of that. Though her guns were large, she still had cruiser-level armour, and combined fire from 3 cruisers could definitely sink her. Proof could be River Plate itself, with the Exeter, Ajax and Achilles. Cumberland was a more "fleet-battle" ship than Exeter, so it was an even match.

If she had beaten the 3 cruisers, she would need to refuel constantly, with most of here ammunition expended, through the Atlantic with no other German ships to cover her.

[Contact]

Yes I agree it's desperate way of fight. :damn: But why a warship is not allowed to be fully repaired in neutral harbour if it even can't normaly sail ? Damn Hague convention is ****!

To loose such a ship in such way ? Common! there had to be a way out without loosing it ?!

On my opinion it could of been enough to repair engines, this was a fast ship and it had big chances breaking away from a pursuing cruisers.
After that a local intel could be done by temporarily recruiting let say a local fisherman with his boat and a german sailor to gather info about how many warships are waiting outside the harbour and which path to choose for escape at night.

I don't believe it was no choise but to scuttle the ship. There was at least a few.

[kiwi_2005]

Why did he shoot himself though was that the honorable thing to do or maybe he was just saving the Gestapo from doing it:hmm: Thats the sad part he saves his crew ok so he lost his ship but lives is more important than a piece of metal. Then he shoots himself. :nope:

[AntEater]

Your characterisations of the RN cruisers are a bit off:
The Leander class did not have "destroyer guns", but rather the usual light cruiser 6" (15,2 cm).
The Leander is the archtypical light cruiser, after which pretty much every other nations 1920s-30s cruiser (except for the US and Japan) was modelled until the japanese kicked off the "heavy light cruiser" race.

County class cruisers were neither slow nor heavily armoured.
Cumberland had a heavier belt armour than Graf Spee, but not much, and was faster than Graf Spee.
You can't really say she was "old" (commissioned 1928) in a navy that still had that many WW1 vintage ships at the time.

ALL RN ships at River plate were faster than Graf Spee, at least in Sprints.
The great advantage of the pocket battleships was not their sprint speed, but their sustained speed and fuel economy.
A pocket battleship could operate at a sustained speed of over 20 knots for weeks without refueling.

[Bewolf]

Why did he shoot himself though was that the honorable thing to do or maybe he was just saving the Gestapo from doing it:hmm: Thats the sad part he saves his crew ok so he lost his ship but lives is more important than a piece of metal. Then he shoots himself. :nope:

It was part of a navy (and civil) honor code of the captain going down with his ship. Langsdorf was such a man of honor, you see this in all his actions, down to his treatment of prisoners. I cann only imagine what it must have been like to see his ship beeing destroyed like that, it certainly was disgraceful with ppl sheering on the shores for having a good afternoon spectacle. Not exactly the way a captain envisions his ship's end. But this will remain speculative.

That said, I always considered honor for honors sake instead of an actual application to real life and common sense as superficial and sometimes dangerous. The european aristocratic and military honors as well as far east bushido style honors are good examples of that. Good men die for nothing but pride.

[Contact]

Your characterisations of the RN cruisers are a bit off:
The Leander class did not have "destroyer guns", but rather the usual light cruiser 6" (15,2 cm).
The Leander is the archtypical light cruiser, after which pretty much every other nations 1920s-30s cruiser (except for the US and Japan) was modelled until the japanese kicked off the "heavy light cruiser" race.

County class cruisers were neither slow nor heavily armoured.
Cumberland had a heavier belt armour than Graf Spee, but not much, and was faster than Graf Spee.
You can't really say she was "old" (commissioned 1928) in a navy that still had that many WW1 vintage ships at the time.

ALL RN ships at River plate were faster than Graf Spee, at least in Sprints.
The great advantage of the pocket battleships was not their sprint speed, but their sustained speed and fuel economy.
A pocket battleship could operate at a sustained speed of over 20 knots for weeks without refueling.

So explain me how on earth Deutchland class cruiser which top speed was 28.5 knots managed to escape two Leander class (HMS Ajax & HMS Achiles) light cruisers and one York-class (HMS Exeter) heavy cruiser where all of them could maintain ~ 32 knots before reaching Montevideo ?

[AntEater]

I'm no river plate expert, but top speed depends on Sea State, the heavier a ship the more it can keep up its top speed in heavy seas.

Fuel. I suppose the british burned a lot in chasing Graf Spee and during the battle, while the fuel consumtion of the Graf Spee didn't change that much.
I'm not sure Graf Spee made 28 knots in 1939.
Real top speed for the Deutschland Class was something between 26 and 28 mostly, but as I said, they could keep that up for weeks.
A nominal top speed is something not really as fixed as technical data might suggest.
As both sides fired off a lot of ammunition, the ships were considerably lighter than a standard combat load.
On the other hand, both the british and germans had spend quite some time at sea (the british even more) and the hulls must've been fouled up quite a bit.

Also, the british did not want to catch up with Langsdorff. Exeter was by all means out of action and the two Leanders were not able to fight it out with a pocket battleship.
They were shadowing Langsdorff, as light cruisers are supposed to do.

The same situation (without a battle) unfolded with Admiral Scheer in 1940.
Kapt. Krancke more or less duped the whole Royal Navy in the indian Ocean and South Atlantic, and succeeded to escape a far larger force than Langsdorff had against him.

[A Very Super Market]

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.

[Sailor Steve]

So explain me how on earth Deutchland class cruiser which top speed was 28.5 knots managed to escape two Leander class (HMS Ajax & HMS Achiles) light cruisers and one York-class (HMS Exeter) heavy cruiser where all of them could maintain ~ 32 knots before reaching Montevideo ?
She didn't escape them. They shadowed her all the way. They were in much worse shape than Graf Spee after the battle, and further engagement would have been foolhardy when reinforcements were on the way.

Remember that, from a tactical standpoint, Graf Spee won the battle.

Find a copy of Battle Of The River Plate, by Dudley Pope.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-River-Plate-German-Battleship/dp/1590130960/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231979889&sr=1-2

It will explain everything.

[bookworm_020]

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.

He was also denied any good information about the odds that he faced. He wasd not allowed to do a recon with a local sea plane and he believed rumors that were put out by the British that there was a large force off shore waiting for him.

With an exhausted crew, a damaged ship with low ammo and no where to go, you can see that his options were limited!

[Contact]

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.

Is it a problem when your in the harbour to get fuel AND to repair engines ?

[Contact]

So explain me how on earth Deutchland class cruiser which top speed was 28.5 knots managed to escape two Leander class (HMS Ajax & HMS Achiles) light cruisers and one York-class (HMS Exeter) heavy cruiser where all of them could maintain ~ 32 knots before reaching Montevideo ?
She didn't escape them. They shadowed her all the way. They were in much worse shape than Graf Spee after the battle, and further engagement would have been foolhardy when reinforcements were on the way.

Remember that, from a tactical standpoint, Graf Spee won the battle.

Find a copy of Battle Of The River Plate, by Dudley Pope.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-River-Plate-German-Battleship/dp/1590130960/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231979889&sr=1-2

It will explain everything.

Thanks, will check it out now :up:

[Contact]

Also the Great story of Graf Spee is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ILzjpDdZS8

[Raptor1]

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.
Is it a problem when your in the harbour to get fuel AND to repair engines ?

Well, yes, you only have 24-hours in the port, that doesn't give you much time

Oh, and the movie is great

[Contact]

I finally made my personal conclusion on this case: The bigger part of blame for loosing Admiral Graf Spee is falling on Berlin. The FAILURE in diplomatic negotiations on permission to stay longer in Montevideo for necessary repairs with Uruguayan government lead to the loss of this ship.
What a shame :nope: