Gas...no gas... gas... no gas

[Skybird]

It is becoming increasingly ridiculous. After having signed a deal, the Ukraine does not obey its accepted obligation and refuses to open the transit valves for Russian gas to Europe, although Russia pumped gas into the pipes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7826142.stm

This after the amateurish display of incompetent negotiators of the EU finding it acceptable that after the Russian signature of a treaty the Ukraine added hand-written additions and then expected Russia to accept these with backward effect as well - hilarious by the Ukraine, dilletantic by the EU negotiators. OF COURSE Medwedew declared that manipulated draft immediately unvalid, and void - common sense commanded it. The Ukraine obviously thought that when Georgia got away with signing a different treaty from Sarkozy than the one Sarkozy let the russians sign, this trick would work for the Ukraine as well. And the EU was stupid enough to let it through in both cases. Untrustworthy idiots.

Also referring to radio news just minutes ago, it gives me the impression that they had set up a way to steal gas again when all transit routes would get under equal normal transit pressure, but that the Russians forsaw that and thus only feeded pipelines they considered to be safe and under monitor's observation. As a result monitor's access to critical keypoints in these transit lines have been rejected by the Ukraine.

Well, I never was a fan of Ukraine. Maybe Gazprom received PR damages (by demanding the Ukraine to do business by international standards and pay the same as everybody else - what is so wrong in that), but the Ukraine damaged it's trustworthiness and reputation much, much more. Also, the EU gives a miserable display. What else to expect - if you accepted a position of weakness and helplessness and tried to arrange yourself in a condition of vital dependance.

[SteamWake]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/gas.jpg

[XabbaRus]

I could give them some gas, I had a big curry for lunch.

[GoldenRivet]

Oil/fuel is to the present day as Nuclear weapons were to the cold war.

its just one of those things that one nation or group of nations can hold over the head of another nation or group of nations.

The time for finding an energy source besides oil has long since passed us by

[Diopos]

Oil/fuel is to the present day as Nuclear weapons were to the cold war.

Nope. You pay to get oil/fuel. When they nuke you, it's free of charge! :D

[asanovic7]

Skybird..

I have to say something.. :rotfl:

Americans were playing with oil, filling their reserves while making sheiks rich.
Now Americans are in a crisis and therefore lowered the price of barrel. For what reasons, I don't know. Maybe to help their economy, maybe to keep its population happy, maybe to hurt the russians by making oil again the primary way of heating..
Maybe they jumpstarted that financial crisis themeselves. I AM SPEAKING ABOUT GOVERNMENT! NOT THE PEOPLE!

Now, Russians to counteract that play with gas, while using Ukraininians(PLEASE, don't think Ukraine fights with Russians :rotfl:) to up the prices of gas while making eu beg for it. Russia IMO is like a big oil/gas firm these days..
Like I said before, eu is nothing more than a toy in the hands of russians and americans.. And what about other countries?

It is ping pong.
Last year we had big oil prices, now we have gas problems.. Every year a crisis.. Combined with financial(how about a credit?) we can expect insults, threats and whatever, like a big war..

The one thing you can count on, is that americans or russians don't feel that way, but that is natural. If I am ok, what do I care if I crap into my neighbours yard, let him come tell me if he can, but he is a cripple, I shot him in the head.. :rotfl: I am sorry, this is american forum, but it seems to me they don't know why are americans "not liked" in many parts of the world.. They think other people from around the world are just jealous.. :rotfl:No, other people hate your government..
I am sorry, I am just honest..

Like for instance, why does anyone feel safer having Israel running around killing people(every year one neighbour) with 200 nuclear bombs and in the same time, stopping Iran from having their own? Now, can someone answer me that? What is the difference? So that we have 5 countries petrified with fear, giving birth to tens of thousands people thinking only about killing some foreign idiot..
Hate can only bring hate.. This world today is filled with hate.. We sit in our chairs, write all this silly s..t on this advanced technology, f..k around with silly words, while right now in some part of the world, mother kisses her 15 year old son proud he is going to fight against some other people for what he prepared his whole life and knowing(that is the worst part) he will probably die the first second he tries to shoot..

Very nice..
That is the new world we are living today..

Now, skybird..
You can tell me I indulge my ego, you can tell me I am dumb and you can comment my way of writting a post and whatever you want to satisfy your hurt German ego("eu is a toy in russian and american hands"), but I would like that you skip all that(I appreaciate that and know that is true) and tell me if I said something stupid and your opinion on the situation(global, local). I really love to read your posts, it seems to me you know alot about it.. WITHOUT IRONY! :up:

Cheers

[Skybird]

Well, without irony indeed, I do not have much more to say than what I already said.

The EU accepted for various reasons to find itself in a position of weakness (which is the translation of "dependance"). The Ukraine provokes Russia, Russia tries to discipline the Ukraine, but the Ukraine provokes more. Gazprom has debts of over 36 billion in the West and cannot afford to waste it's trade item: gas, for below 200 dollars per unit, while the market price is in the range of 400+ and needs to be payed by european nations as well. The Kreml uses gas in its constant conflict with the Ukraine, which goes beyond gas. Kreml and Gazprom are two separate actors with different interests, but they are coordinating their efforts against the Ukaine, the kreml has interests in the field of state fiances and global strategic influence, Gazprom the the business field and regarding financial profits and paying off it'S debts. The Ukraine is in a poor economic situation, and wants to blackmail europe to accept it's membership to protect against the big demon, Russia. It also does not want to adress the ICF or the WB over ledning money, for it wants to get its needed candies for free and without the usual obligations these international institutions dictatde to those depending on their credits.

And like in Georgia, I am convinced that the americans also masisvely encourage the Ukraine to provoke Russia, for two reasons: first to lecture Europe about their dependance from Russian gas and make them giving up their policies allowing that for environmental reasons, and support for the global warming faction, and second to increase American influence aginst Russia and stir the pot so that in the conflict the Ukraine gets pushed into the EU and NATO, means: into the american sphere of influence, and at the cost of Russia. The US are an invisible player in this conflict, but they are the fourth player on the field nevertheless, and they play it very tough. Tjhe bill is payed by southeuropeans, the EU, the Ukraine, and of course Russia. the political damage for the Ukraine is the biggest, followed by the hurt EU that is witnessing the ashes of it's naive energy policy. Beside financial damage to Gazprom not earning incomes, the damage for Russia is limited and can be lived with. It even may fuel the Russian intention for a Baltic sea pipeline to bypass unloved ukraine, delete Ukraine's transit fees and by that increase pressure on them, and make it more tempting for the EU to accept a state of even greater depedance from russian gas. For all these three reasons, America is strictly against this northern pipeline, and wants to keep their Ukrainean card in the game. If the US does not want anything in the European part of it'S global strategy, then it's a fall in the EU's and NATO's interest into the Ukraine, it would be a major setback for the US' own ambitions to keep Russia under pressure.

[bookworm_020]

If you want natural gas, Australia has plenty! You just have to ship it and it's all yours! (just pay for it first!):yep:

[TarJak]

I could give them some gas, I had a big curry for lunch.
http://content.pimp-my-profile.com/userpics/funny_pictures/269.jpg

[asanovic7]

Well, without irony indeed, I do not have much more to say than what I already said.

The EU accepted for various reasons to find itself in a position of weakness (which is the translation of "dependance"). The Ukraine provokes Russia, Russia tries to discipline the Ukraine, but the Ukraine provokes more. Gazprom has debts of over 36 billion in the West and cannot afford to waste it's trade item: gas, for below 200 dollars per unit, while the market price is in the range of 400+ and needs to be payed by european nations as well. The Kreml uses gas in its constant conflict with the Ukraine, which goes beyond gas. Kreml and Gazprom are two separate actors with different interests, but they are coordinating their efforts against the Ukaine, the kreml has interests in the field of state fiances and global strategic influence, Gazprom the the business field and regarding financial profits and paying off it'S debts. The Ukraine is in a poor economic situation, and wants to blackmail europe to accept it's membership to protect against the big demon, Russia. It also does not want to adress the ICF or the WB over ledning money, for it wants to get its needed candies for free and without the usual obligations these international institutions dictatde to those depending on their credits.

And like in Georgia, I am convinced that the americans also masisvely encourage the Ukraine to provoke Russia, for two reasons: first to lecture Europe about their dependance from Russian gas and make them giving up their policies allowing that for environmental reasons, and support for the global warming faction, and second to increase American influence aginst Russia and stir the pot so that in the conflict the Ukraine gets pushed into the EU and NATO, means: into the american sphere of influence, and at the cost of Russia. The US are an invisible player in this conflict, but they are the fourth player on the field nevertheless, and they play it very tough. Tjhe bill is payed by southeuropeans, the EU, the Ukraine, and of course Russia. the political damage for the Ukraine is the biggest, followed by the hurt EU that is witnessing the ashes of it's naive energy policy. Beside financial damage to Gazprom not earning incomes, the damage for Russia is limited and can be lived with. It even may fuel the Russian intention for a Baltic sea pipeline to bypass unloved ukraine, delete Ukraine's transit fees and by that increase pressure on them, and make it more tempting for the EU to accept a state of even greater depedance from russian gas. For all these three reasons, America is strictly against this northern pipeline, and wants to keep their Ukrainean card in the game. If the US does not want anything in the European part of it'S global strategy, then it's a fall in the EU's and NATO's interest into the Ukraine, it would be a major setback for the US' own ambitions to keep Russia under pressure.

Then we agree in almost every aspect, :know:, but you are more into the theme and your explanation is far broader than mine.. :up:

In other words..

We are gased beyond recognition in years to come..
:rotfl:

I hope this explanation by skybird can show fellow americans to how much extent United States governement(democrats, liberals, white, gay, black, Marsian etc.) do s..t around the world, and they do it followed closely by their beloved comrade.

When China steps in(or it is already), it will be even worse.

Cheers, Skybird!

[Catfish]

Hello,
i must admit i first thoght it was all made up by Putin. Now it seems the Ukrayina does indeed actively hinders the deliverance. Do they want to blackmail the EU ? I mean usually you get an answer to almost all questions in asking yourself "who profits from this".
Seems i must deliver an excuse to Mr. Putin .. :hmm: But then maybe he does not really need it :lol:

Greetings,
Catfish

[asanovic7]

After doing some thinking.. :rotfl:

US and Russians in the end have common interests in the world.. They just make a fuss about something somewhere, use their little pawns on the board and in the end split the profit.
Ping pong..

[Skybird]

Seems i must deliver an excuse to Mr. Putin .. :hmm: You certainly must not, he is too tough a chess player for that. that the major share of responsibility for this row lies with the Ukraine, does not make Putinistan harmless. but as long as I can see him acting on the basis of intentions and legitimate self-interest I can forsee and understand, I rate him as an opponent you need to keep an eye on - but an opponent that is very unlikely to start something irrational and totally unreasonable. He is clever, but so far predictable. That's why I can live with a Russia dominated by Putin. It would be much worse with a Duma falling apart in trench warfare, and the government in the hands of the oligarchs and nationalists. I prefer Putin's Russia anytime to Yeltsin's Russia, it is far more stable, and predictable. Whether it is democratic in western understanding or not, is of relatively low importance, and the majority of Russians seem to be very happy with strong leaders: Stalin sees a renaissance of popularity, pushed by the Kreml, and Putin is extremely popular - especially with the young ones, but also with many of the old ones. Russia has any right there is not to be like america or europe, and who said that they must prefer to be a society as crazy and loose as the Europeans or Americans, especially the EU giving an example of cultural self-deconstruction? Ranging from Europe to the Far East, i do not believe that Russia could be run like a Western style democracy anyway. If it is stable and predictable and reliable, that kind of Russia is good enough for me. I do not tell it it must be like us. Would we like to be told by russia that we should be like them? Could you imagine wgat reactions you would get from Americans iof you tell them they have to be like you tell them to be? Let'S accept differences. Sometimes differences are mutually harmful, but here they must not necessarily be so. Europe is closer to Russia than America, so for the Europeans of us the american perspective on Russia could be seen as almost irrelevant. We should be careful that we do not pay the bill for America's policy towards Russia (thinking of the constant American provocations regarding NATO moving East, Georgia, and the Ukraine).


Then we agree in almost every aspect
Well, agreement could happen. :D Do not overrate my complaint to you from some days ago. I stick to it, but we have not crossed blades so far, and I have generally a neutral stance towards you. Under such conditions I judge events and situations on a one-by-one basis. ;) Cheers to you also.

[Skybird]

It has become known today that although Germany has the biggest gas storage capacity in Europe, differen to other nations at the beginning of this autumn/winter these storages were not only not filled up, but according to some sources even were filled to half capacity only, which means the german gas reserves seem to have depleted into critical levels much faster than expected and known to experts and the public alike.

this could change the loss in trust and prestige russia faces, which before I described as relatively small, even if it is the Ukrainean provocations to blame, because no other european country has as close relations to Russia like Germany, and we get one third of the gas we use from Russia. If Germany gets into trouble due to gas shortages, Russia would lose prestige and trust with the major partner it has in the EU. And that could have long-ranging consequences for future business relations between both nationes, and the Eu and Russia. the news of germany being far more exposed than assumed probably was very unwelcomed news in the Kreml as well (Putin is in Germany currently, receiving a medal over here which even for my taste is definitely too much concessions from Germany), where they probably thought to be more safe from early major fallpout from their major partner Germany.

Question remains what dumb idiot's decision it was to not keep the iron reserves (meant for cases of desaster and states of emergency) filled at all times. Such facilities are useless if they do not contain something.

Let's see if this will make Germany (stupidly) push the EU to agree taking the risk of buying the gas already when it leaves the Russian border (not just after it has reached european soil after transit through the Ukraine), so that if it gets stolen from the Ukraine, it is no longer Russia's business, since it already has sold it then. An according proposal to solve the crisis and get rid of the Ukraine problem has been made - by Russia. It would be the best deal for them, and the worst deal for the EU. the Ukraine already has not the most solid reputation as business partner inside the EU, and if they want that gas, it may not be of interest for them whether they steal gas that is owned by russia, or already owened by the EU. The following negotiations in that eventual case between EU and the Ukraine and the resulting costs to pay would be - European taxpayer's job again.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I want to remind us that even at the height of the cold war, the Soviet Union always fully complied with it's business obligations and always fulfilled it's contracts to deliver agreed ammounts of gas to "hostile" NATO countries in Europe.

[August]

skybird can show fellow americans

Skybird is not an American by any means.

[FIREWALL]

@ asanovic7

I think the best part and makes the most sense of your essay was " I don't know "

And your so right and I totaly agree with you. :yep:

You don't have a CLUE WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.:D

[UnderseaLcpl]

skybird can show fellow americans

Skybird is not an American by any means.

Really? If I didn't already know he was German it would be easy to mistake him for a Democrat:D

[Skybird]

(...)
I am what I am
I don't want praise I don't want pity
I bang my own drum
Some think it's noise I think it's pretty
I am what I am
And what I am needs no excuses
I deal my own deck sometimes the aces sometimes the deuces ..."
(...)

:lol:

[asanovic7]

Fellow?
Maah, my english..
I thought that like all people around the world are and should be friends.. Like modern gay thing..
:rotfl: :rotfl:

I didn't mean skybird is american..

Skybird, your neutral stance against me is a good thing, I have one against you, but certainly we will have to cross our swords, if not here then on handball pitch..

Firewall, it seems to me like that was the best part of my essay too..

:rotfl: :rotfl:
But, still, you didn't offer your opinion..
:roll:

[Digital_Trucker]

I am what I am


He's Popeye the sailor man, toot, toot!:D

[XabbaRus]

Well gas deal concluded and it is as predicted. Tymoshenko gets a deal with Putin. Yuschenko looks like a powerless idiot and come elections later this year Tymoshenko and Yanukovich will be the ones fighting it out.

[Skybird]

Well gas deal concluded and it is as predicted. Tymoshenko gets a deal with Putin. Yuschenko looks like a powerless idiot and come elections later this year Tymoshenko and Yanukovich will be the ones fighting it out.
See you next year again, when the higher prices come into effect - or were planned to. ;)

[XabbaRus]

It's a date.

[Skybird]

It's an early date.

I just read that the ukraine does not let it rest. The innerpolitical rival of head of government prime minister Tymochenko, president Juschtschenko, let his spokesman announce that the treaty with Russia needs to be re-negotiated.

The next guy telling me it all was and is a Russian plot to blackmail Europe, gets my bursting laughter.

[XabbaRus]

There is an article in the the moscow times with the headline.

"Tymoshenko eyes cheaper gas in 2010"

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1009/42/373827.htm

The article is however badly written as it said Tymoshenko made the announcement then goes on to say she is happy with the deal but won't let Yushenko derail it.

I don't know hwo the Ukraine can be seen as reliable and a future EU member if she wants to break a deal that has just been made.

[Skybird]

There is an article in the the moscow times with the headline.

"Tymoshenko eyes cheaper gas in 2010"

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1009/42/373827.htm

The article is however badly written as it said Tymoshenko made the announcement then goes on to say she is happy with the deal but won't let Yushenko derail it.

I don't know hwo the Ukraine can be seen as reliable and a future EU member if she wants to break a deal that has just been made.
That is irritating since the treaty they signed runs for 10 years. Under the treaty now, they have to pay more money for their gas, but still 25% below worlds market niveau. In 2010 or 2011 it should be raised to normal niveau.

As long as no Ukraineans negotiator again has added hand-written reamrks into the paper after the Russians signed it.