News from Gaza, well, not exactly... LOL

[Carotio]

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2009/01/08/tv-panne-in-gaza/hamas-techniker-schaltet-sexprogramm-auf-terrorsender.html

Click the small photo to see 7 photos of what went "on air" from the Hamas controlled al-aqsa tv-station recently.

Yes, while Arab war songs were played all along, the tv-technician was apparently bored and were zapping around in the available satellite channels and then stopped for little more than 6 minutes and watched some Polish semi-erotic women dancing around flashing their breasts. What he apparently wasn't aware of, is that all of it went live "on air", and still the war songs were played.

That's what I call positive news from the Gaza strip :lol:

EDIT:
I was just rembering an old saying:

Make love, not war

Comes to its right in this situation...

[SteamWake]

So much for sharia law... Im sure these 'technicians' will be put to the knife.

[nikimcbee]

Zu sehen war eine nackte Blondine mit wehendem Haar! Sie streichelte aufreizend ihren Körper, flirtete, dann rekelte sich eine Rothaarige im Bild. Die arabischen Kampfgesänge liefen weiter.


no wonder there was a cease-fire. They were watching TV:rotfl:

[AntEater]

Lol, polish Hamas (soft)porn
Martyrs have to have some fun once in a while...
:rotfl:
But BILD as a source in an international Forum?
And some people here condemn Skybird for using Spiegel?
Also this is another argument for a german language forum as apparently everybody and his dog here understands it.

And regarding the Poles, I expect Kazcinsky (sp??) to explain to Bush/Obama/whoever's in charge why Poland supports terrorists
;)

[August]

And some people here condemn Skybird for using Spiegel?

No actually some of us condemn Skybird for being Skybird. His (over) use of Spiegel (and the NYT) is just incidental... :D

[Torplexed]

Yes, while Arab war songs were played all along, the tv-technician was apparently bored and were zapping around in the available satellite channels and then stopped for little more than 6 minutes and watched some Polish semi-erotic women dancing around flashing their breasts. What he apparently wasn't aware of, is that all of it went live "on air", and still the war songs were played.

That's what I call positive news from the Gaza strip
Some dazed and wounded Hamas fighter stirred by the war music probably looked up from his hospital bed, saw the tv and thought he was getting his 72 virgins.

"Allah be praised, they're Polish!" :sunny:

[nikimcbee]

Yes, while Arab war songs were played all along, the tv-technician was apparently bored and were zapping around in the available satellite channels and then stopped for little more than 6 minutes and watched some Polish semi-erotic women dancing around flashing their breasts. What he apparently wasn't aware of, is that all of it went live "on air", and still the war songs were played.

That's what I call positive news from the Gaza strip
Some dazed and wounded Hamas fighter stirred by the war music probably looked up from his hospital bed, saw the tv and thought he was getting his 72 virgins.

"Allah be praised, they're Polish!" :sunny:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Oberon]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

ROFLMFAO!! Oh dear, that's great. :lol:

[AntEater]

Well, maybe that means all the souls of those martyrs are going to....
.....Poland????

Ok, Poland is some kind of paradise.
Not much work, generally easygoing lifestyle, hot women, lots of booze...
Not exactly 72 virgins but maybe as close as you can get.

[Dimitrius07]

Offtopic
During the so called "cease-fire" Hamas taked the oppotunity and launch another pack of rockets into cityes of Israel. But as long as a propaganda work, you can call me a bad guy for posting this. How dare I :D

[AntEater]

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/49105main_popcorn.jpg

[Thomen]

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/49105main_popcorn.jpg

plus

http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/301/product-128301.gif

[Onkel Neal]

Attack the issues, not each other. Or, at least try :)

[Dimitrius07]

I`am not attacking anyone ;), i just post my point of view. I also have no problem with different point of view, even if its a false information.

[Frame57]

Wow! That is a switch. I must address my stereotype of Polish women. The ones I have seen all looked like my Grand Mother wearing a Babushka:D

[Carotio]

Seriously, I think we all can agree on one thing:

the only innocent victims in this conflict are the children (and animals), no matter which side of the border they live.

The adults are either actively part of it as in fighting or morally part of it by supporting the attacks on the other side. Few people protest against the attacks against the opposite side.

Ask around on both sides, practically nobody will say that they feel sorry for the innocent on the opposite side.

It's very sad. :cry:

[Kapt Z]

Oh, that's hilarious!:rotfl:

I bet the most hardline of those Sharia guys secretly have a bigger collection of porn than a college frat house.:up:

[Skybird]

If Israel is driving this until the end and with objectives fulfilled, they have my support, but if they prematurely break off too early while acchieving their objectives is in range, I will not support them, and condemn them for having caused a lot of chaos all for nothing. right now it seems they have learned from their mistakes in Lebanon, and corrected them one by one: months of planning, much better intel, better military preparation, and the determination to not allow the presence of civilians hindering them to target Hamas terrorists. Note that that Palestinians in the Westbank remain in a surprising relative silence over what is happening in the Gazastrip. It may have something to do with Hamas going into hospitals to torture, mutilate and murder wounded members of Fatah in their beds. However, a state for Palestinians is far away agai n now. Palestinians in Gaza and the Westbank are almost two different people, with Gazanians being much closer to Egyptians anyway. Many open bills between both Palestinian tribes, which will all be payed in blood. My generation will not see a settling of these issues, and the generation after us probably also not. The expectation of peace in the socalled "Holy Land" remains to be a complete illusion. They will keep on hacking away at each other, and if they would not get modern weapons anymore, they would use rocks, spears and clubs. It's the first global mental asylum under management of the globe's biggest lunatic of all, the UN. Currently I think 7 UN missions are running inthe region, focussing on Palestinians, Israel, and Lebanon. Now they plan the 8th one and really assume that would do the trick where the other 7 fail. - "And even if the hope lasts only one day long, so it still has lived nevertheless: Hallelujah! "

[Onkel Neal]

I`am not attacking anyone ;), i just post my point of view. I also have no problem with different point of view, even if its a false information.

Sorry, I was not directing that at you in particular. I know how heated the Israeli-Palestinian discussions get.

[Carotio]

Carotio, that's Al Qaeda's rhetoric. "People in X country support their government so they're a legitimate target".

Well, that's not only the rhetoric of Al Quada. That's pretty much the rhetoric of any agressor.

Israel use it in the current situation against Gaza, like in: Hamas is hiding between civilians, so if these civilians don't like Hamas people, they should throw them out of their houses/neighborhood, and if they don't do that, then who gives a f*ck if a few civilians would die, when Israelean military makes a strike on a Hamas hideout.

And that is not only in this conflict, but in all.

It still makes me sick when innocent people die, but when agressors are hit themselves, well, then I guess it's just Nemesis striking back.

In any case: oh, well, it ain't me who dies, so WTF... :roll:
Pardon my sarcasm...

PS: nothing personal ;)

[Skybird]

My greatest worry is not Mikhayl's usual and forseeable lament, but that while Israeli generals recommend to press on, Olmert, Livny and Barak could decide to prematurely stop the fight to serve their three very different political tactical calculations for the coming Israeli elections, where they are effectively rivals. If they stop the war now just because they think they can improve their chances that way, heaven and hell should slay them with thunderbolts and hailstorm for this waste of opportunity, destruction and military operation. Since Gaza is an isolated, limited place, Hamas could be slain inside it of it to a wide degree, it could be delivered very painful losses - and this is what counts: killing Hamas members by as high scores as possible. And the war should be carried on until Hamas is either dead or begs for surrender on its knees. Inside Gaza, this could be acchieved, since they have no unlimited ressources and no unlimited space to manouver and ressupply. So, this war indeed is a good chance to deliver Hamas a crippling blow and reduce it's stockpiles in weapons, ammo, and active personnell deciselvly. If by that the daily rocket terror that is haunting Israel day by day since eight years could be interrupted for some years to come and many Hamas terrorists could be killed, it was worth it. Election interests of Israeli political rivals should not be allowed to interfere with this. After Hamas has been seriously crippled, it also is imporant to get the Egyptians engaged in seriously sealing off the borders to Gaza and controlling them against weapons smuggling. A weak Hamas may help in getting them into the boat. so far they are hesitent, because common advise is to not getting engaged with Palestinian affairs: it's always getting a pain in the ###. Mikhayl probably will not like such a determined stand like I advocate. But thankfully his influence on the situation is extremely limited. We could all agree on this minimum (at least I assume): the earlier it is guaranteed that the daily rocket terror of Hamas could not be continued, the earlier aid and relief, food and medication, fuel and civilian goods could be brought into Gaza again. just a declaration of Hamas is not good enough for such a guarantee - their goal was and still is to kill Israelis and to destroy Israel - that limits the objects for negotiations considerably, one should think.

[August]

As far as I'm concerned Israel and Hamas are both a stain on the surface of the Earth (though I keep in mind that Hamas is only one of many reactions to Israel), and I will be happy when they both get cleaned off.

Calling over 7 million people a "stain on the surface of the Earth" is a bit extreme don't you think?

Is that your final solution?

[Carotio]

Though yes I wouldn't move an eyelid if all the settler nutjobs disappeared overnight.

Well, either one accepts evolution or one does not.
The ultimate decline of evolution is the reverse to previous state.
And what would the ultimate previous state be?

All people would have to go back to where they came from, and not only individuals but also as nations.

Just try to imagine that: all white people out of America, Australia and Africa. All black people back to Africa. All Arabs back to the peninsula. Russians out of Asian Russia. And that's just the big picture. Then nationalities must be divided. Maybe DNA research can set our origins.

Seriously: let's all go to the sea and drown ourselves. We arose from the sea as small amoebas. That's the ultimate goal for reverse history and besides it suits naval simmers well, now doesn't it? ;)

[nikimcbee]

Wow! That is a switch. I must address my stereotype of Polish women. The ones I have seen all looked like my Grand Mother wearing a Babushka:D

Hey, their hot when their young, they just don't age gracefuly. So enjoy the eye candy.:up:

[Skybird]

As far as I'm concerned Israel and Hamas are both a stain on the surface of the Earth (though I keep in mind that Hamas is only one of many reactions to Israel), and I will be happy when they both get cleaned off.
That is the difference between you and me: I see the difference between victim and perpetrator, you declare the victim to be as evil as the perpetrator, and reject Israel's right to exist. I would maybe argue in the same direction if the founding of Israel would be just two or three years ago in the past, and as a matter of fact I have repeatedly done that in past threads, but it is over two generations now - and this is what changes it all. It already has existed all too long now as that you could reverse history without committing again big injustice against innocent people not responsible for Israel's existence and the way it was brought into life. That's why I accept Israel's right to exist as a state - not doing so would kick another millions of people who had been born after 1947 into homelessness. If that is being called wrong for 1947, it cannot be any less wrong today, so why repeat the same mistake.

You may call that wrong or evil or whatever - but all history has been formed like this - including the forming-up of today's French and German states over the past 1000 years. Both today's nations are founded on an ocean of blood and suffering. After some time, chnages and what is new - become normality and the new norm the world now is focussing on. Demands for Israel'S dismantling are as much wanted as calls for a Great Serbia or a return of the Roman Empire. In the end, the territory of today'S Israel has been fought over and has seen bloodshed for millenias, they already had wars for it before the Romans came - and installed an enforced relative state of ceize-fire. The Palestinian's claim for it historically makes not more and not less sense than that of Israel today.

I also insist on seeing the difference in intentionally killing civilians of the other side and hiding amongst one's own civilians in order to provoke their death for scoring points in the propaganda war, and aiming at militants and trying to avoid civilian killings, but needing to accept them if the target does not keep separate from them. Maybe for you both intentions are the same. But that speaks not against Israel, but against you.

That hundreds of thousands of Israelis are expected to live under daily fear, living in a constant state of alarm 24/7, 12 months a year - we do not hear the UN, and France complaining about, just naive daydreamings. After all nobody gives a damn for Israelis suffering as long as they remain silent and keep their lips closed - as they are expected so that the West can carry on with his appeasement of Islam, last but not least at home. Killed Jews yelling in agony just disturb the global selfdeception of peace and multicultural tolerance.

However, the dispute between Israel and Palestinians is mostly a demographic one anyway, despite their miserable living conditions, Palestinians are breeding like rabbits, since they see this as their primary weapon to mount pressure on Israel. This is not only cynical (but typical for Islamic thinking since Muhammad himself, who also called for women to create many children so that there are more Muslim warriors), but possibly the factor that will eventually drop Israel into a state of civil war and rip it apart from within in some decades. I'm sure you are looking forward to it.

Btw a lot of French associations united to "fill a lawsuit" (?) against Israel to the International Criminal Court, it should be done Wednesday.
Have they also filed a lawsuit about Hamas firing missiles into civilian places in an attempt to target and kill civilians? No? I see. Commiting murder and terror is okay. Trying to fight off terrorists in self-defence who are striking like this - is unforgivable. Always be balanced, always see both sides. If you accuse the perpetrator, you also have to accuse the victim to show that you are not biased.

[Tchocky]

With reference to using civilians as cover, remember that it wasn't so long ago that the Israeli Army appealed a ban on their use of Palestinianhuman shields.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

[Skybird]

The Palestinians started this round (again), and provoked for years. A simple but true fact you comfortably prefer to ignore. Israel has learned its lesson from Lebanon 2006, and does not allow Hamas to become as strong as Hesbollah has been - that's why they are so unforgiving today: to prevent Hamas becoming like that. When the Israelis ended occupation and left, the new "freedom" was used to immediately start terror strikes from these once occupied grounds again, and on a daily basis. When terrorists come under pressure, they start talking of a seize-fire, to rearm. when they feel strong enough again, they start launching missiles into civilian crowds and areas again. Israel at lkeast gives three short hours of relief per day, knowing that this also helps Hamas. Hamas during these three hours continues striking, hoping to provoke retaliation that would cost Israel in the propaganda war. - - - Palestinians have, since years, the choice not to waste their small money for weapons and supporting extremism and buying ammo and explosives, but to invest in infrastructure, schools, agriculture - but they choose to channel a huge ammount of their already small money into terrorism. You do not care for that, too. I must note that in my book: terrorism against "zionism" is allowed, undiscriminatory murder is acceptable if committed in the name of anti-zionism. Honstely said, until today I do not even know precisely how to define zionism (and I met Israelis in Egypt who couldn't either), not to mention: supporting it. - - - If Palestinians started this all and provoked and terrorised, and lives really have to be lost, then I prefer Palestinian lives being taken for they are the ones respoinsible for this latest conflict, not that of the targetted Israeli population. Again, Mikhayl: you comfortably chose not to see the difference between victim and perpetrator, declare the citim guilty as hell, and relabel self-defence as a war of aggression becasue the victim'S defence is effective and stronger than the attacker'S aggression. You are most confused - and very ideologically biased. But hey, being anti-Israel is en vogue today (as if it ever has been different). seen that way you are a major representation of a general European attitude anyway. And France as a political - has a long history of being pro-Arabic and anti-Israel anyway. Probably a bad conscience for it'S colonial past it tries to overcompensate for - who knows...

[Tchocky]

The Palestinians started this round (again), and provoked for years. A simple but true fact you comfortably prefer to ignore. Israel has learned its lesson from Lebanon 2006, and does not allow Hamas to become as strong as Hesbollah has been - that's why they are so unforgiving today: to prevent Hamas becoming like that. When the Israelis ended occupation and left, the new "freedom" was used to immediately start terror strikes from these once occupied grounds again, and on a daily basis. Um, Hamas stopped rocket fire during the truce, which was broken by an Israeli strike on November 4th against Hamas.

Islamic Jihad continued low-scale rocket fire, and there were several unattributed rockets. But ths war in Gaza is specifically against Hamas, who had ceased rocket fire until attacked by Israel.
When terrorists come under pressure, they start talking of a seize-fire, to rearm. when they feel strong enough again, they start launching missiles into civilian crowds and areas again. Israel at lkeast gives three short hours of relief per day, knowing that this also helps Hamas.
From wikipedia - As of 12 January 2009, 13 Israelis (including 3 civilians) and 905 Palestinians (including 333 women and children) are estimated to have been killed in the conflict.

[Skybird]

If no palestinian rockets wpould constantly fly since 8 years, on a daily basis, there would be no 900+ Palestinians dead today. But they let them fly, and so see their situation worstening.

And I cannot say it is undeserved. If you have to live under constant fear to be struck by a missle, day by day, anytime around the clock, for years, then you become ill, and your life becomes miserable. It is the most natural thing in the world that sooner or later you wish to strike back and commit the needed ammount of destruction to the side doing this to you, that is needed to make it stop terrorising you all day long. hus it is better to see 900 palestinains dead, than 900 Israelis. I will not complain to fate that the Palestinian missiles did not do more harm. and if the palestinians still have no better missiles - I wonder why they are provoking so much for a fight until they got what they called for, for years. That is not clever, to put it mildly. What else can the intention be to force Israel to kill Palestinians in order to raise global opinion against Israel and score a strategic PR victory by sacrificing your own ethnic comrades? It remindsof Russian officer in world war two around stalingrad, who forced their troops with weapons to strm uselessly into German MG fire and get killed and shot ever russian not storming forward anymore. It was already disgusting with these russian soldiers 8although in the end the battle got won, hat horrific costs). It is even more disgusting if it is no soldiers of your side you sacrifice, but your own people's mothers, old, and children.

Of course, Israel gets blamed for it.The cynical Hamas tactic works very well with caring, sensible Westerners. THAT'S WHY THEY RUN THIS TACTIC, AND NO OTHER.

[Carotio]

Carotio, destroying a people and a culture to install a religious apartheid state is a regression if anything, certainly not an evolution.
And who's to say all the people would have to go back ? Arabs don't hate Jews, they hate Israel. Though your comparison doesn't hold, the people who migrated to Israel are hardly a "natural" migration like the others you cite.

I have little doubt that in the future History will be very harsh with Israel.

The "two state" solution is chimera and will never happen, how could you possibly have a state of Palestine cut in two by Israel ? Imagine if you had to submit to German checkpoints everytime you want to go see your family in another part of Denmark.

There will be either a single state where one people=one vote

So the arab conquest of the holy land was a natural migration? Later on the crusades - were they natural? When Israel was created, Jews were allready living in the area. Most Jews world wide just wanted to go back to where their ancestors lived and live in the newly created declared Jewish state.
When the slaves of USA was liberated after the civil war in 1865, may of them wished to return to Africa. And a new country was set up for them, Liberia. It felt natural for them at the time.
The palestinians, well, they are in fact just remains of arab conquest settlers. And now they have lived for hundred of years in the area, so yes of course it feels natural for them to live there.
You cannot just sit and declare one side natural and then the other side unnatural. It doesn't work.

I disagree, I doubt history will be harsh against Israel. But noone of any of us can tell, now can we. The average age is about 75 years, so in average we may have 30-50 years back to see what happens. Since we have had this situation for about a lifetime now, I have little doubt that in 50 years we'll still have status quo.

Cut in two by history, well, go ask the Russian in the Kaliningrad area, what they think. They're cut of from mother Russia as well, and they live with it, because of peaceful agreements.

If the single state should arise, then most likely, it will be Israelean, with Palestinians permitted to live on Israelean soil. USA would never allow the opposite.
But about current situation, then there's also the chance that Gaza cease to exist as Arab territory. The Gaza people would then have the choice of being Israelean citizen (unlikely) or move to the West Bank (being Fatah area probably also unlikely).

[Tchocky]

If no palestinian rockets wpould constantly fly since 8 years, on a daily basis, there would be no 900+ Palestinians dead today. But they let them fly, and so see their situation worstening. No, there was a cease-fire, the number of rockets fired dropped massively.

"Rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between Jun 18 and Nov 4 in comparison with the four and half months preceding the ceasefire. Over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from Feb to Jun 18, 2008 and 37 were fired between Jun 18 and the beginning of November."


If you have to live under constant fear to be struck by a missle, day by day, anytime around the clock, for years, then you become ill, and your life becomes miserable. It is the most natural thing in the world that sooner or later you wish to strike back and commit the needed ammount of destruction to the side doing this to you Miserable? How about "dead".

The "needed" amount of destruction? Do you really think that Israels actions in Gaza are going to produce less anger from Palestinians? Surely you understand this.
What exactly is the needed amount?

What else can the intention be to force Israel to kill Palestinians in order to raise global opinion against Israel and score a strategic PR victory by sacrificing your own ethnic comrades? These rocket attacks began after an Israeli strike in Gaza, in violation of the truce.
Even if Hamas are playing this game you have hypothesised, there is noreason for Israel to play along. It would be a monumentally stupid move on their part, even more so than the current bloody war.

Of course, Israel gets blamed for it.The cynical Hamas tactic works very well with caring, sensible Westerners. THAT'S WHY THEY RUN THIS TACTIC, AND NO OTHER. Again, why does Israel have to play along? Surely they are smarter than to play into the hands of such a *seemingly* obvious ploy.

[Onkel Neal]

A map highighting the vast lands occupied by Muslims, vs the single, miniscule Jewish state
http://www.masada2000.org/isr-world.gif


I think it's sad that people won't allow the Jews even the tiniest portion of their ancestral home. Talk about extremists.

[Tchocky]

Neal, it isn't a Muslim vs. Jewish issue, it concerns the actions of Israel in Gaza over the last two weeks.

The fact that more area of the worlds surface is occupied by mostly-Muslim populations is of little comfort to the dead of Gaza.

[Skybird]

The issue is very simple, Tchocky. You asked what is the needed ammount of destruction to acchieve that Palestinians do not terrorise Israel with missile attacks. the answer is: the ammount of destruction and killing and suffering that accieves to stop them committing such action. Currently, obviously their pain and suffering still is not big enough, and Hamas still feels confident to occasionally fire back with missiles. Well, keep on bombing them then, and strike them harder. the place is limited in size, the place is isolated, nothing gets in or out - sooner or later they will have had enough, since they are not in supply, and have no safe haven to go. hezbollah in Lebanon had plenty of open range to use, and open supply lines - the Palestinians in Gaza have not. They cannot hold out forever. So: press on until they break, it is only a question of time. If that costs the lives of their civilians: well, then why did they start it. Neither Israel nor anyone else did ask them for it.

If you minimise what it means to live in constant fear of the next alarm, like many thousands of Israeli families do since many years, then you never have experienced violent force directly yourself, and I do not speak of a small backyard rumble from your juvenile years, but bombs and collapsing structures and blood and bodyparts laying on the street. Well, I never was fighting in a war, thankfully, but I have experienced this, both in berlin and then out of the blue, and then again saw the scene of such action in Algeria and Turkey, and it is not a pleasant thing. Only somebody not knowing such experiences and sights could recommend to tolerate them in the name of some abstract ideals of peace and coexistence. If explosions go up and bullets fly and a house front comes down, then it is only the next moment you worry about, and all ideals and ideas go immediately out of the window - even yours. Make that fear for the next attack a constant state of life, and you have a mind in desperation, depression, making people sick and ill. Such things cannot be tolerated. That's why I give Israel any right there is to do anything needed to stop such things committed by Palestinians. I even give them the right to sink all hellhole of Gaza in the ocean if Palestinians do not stop terrorising their families in their homes.

If such action increases Palestinians anger, or Arabs anger, or Muslims anger, is unimportant.They are angered anyway, if not over this, then over something different the bad bad West has done to them poor poor fellas, so why worry. It is not their arab brothers helping and financing them so that they do not starve in Gaza - it is the EU for the most, and the UN second. Just for the record.

and that Hamas has inferior missiles only, compared to Hezbollah for example: well, after Lebanon 2006 Hamas took Hezbollah as an example it tried to follow, trying to copy them. It seems that Israel has a.) adapted to this in chnaged military tactics, and b.) was not willing to wait until Hamas also stockpiled as lethal weapons and missiles as that of Hezbollah, which even fielded hightech ATGMs like the Franco-German Milan and the latest reincarnations of RPG-7 (which are said to be tough enough to even threaten Abrams armour, we know from Iraq). The range of terror missiles by which they struck Israel, constantly increases. That they are not precise for the most does not mean to be an argument, they fire them nevertheless, which means a.) they do not care and certainly hope to kill civilians - and b.) that they are stupid to provoke Israel if such are their weapons. It is about propaganda scores again, and palestinians in the end killing Palestinioans to blame Israel for it. Also, these missiles, whether they hit their target or not, by intention are targetted at civilian settlements. Two days ago, an asylum for old people got hit, I remember. Consider the missile to be a bigger one, and we would not talk about being lucky in getting struck, but maybe dozens dead. Is that what you are waiting for? I hope not.

Nobody can seriously expect Israel to wait until things have gotten that bad, before it decides to do something about the threat. That is no pro-zionism. That is no mere sympathy or a German guilt-complex towards Israel when I say that. It simply is a normal reaction to provoking action, it simply is common sense.

They shoot at you? You shoot back until either they cannot shoot anymore, or are dead. Very simple.

Stop judging war by standards of peacetime and order. War is neither a decreased state of peace, nor reduced order, but the absence of both, the antithesis. trying to judge war by standards of peace morals, is illogical and absurd, it makes completely no sense and just leads to confusion about the nature of war and how to keep it rare in happening, and short in action, and victorious in outcome. Once the state of war has ended, you can judge life by the standards of peace and order again. War you have to assess by the standards of war only. Seen that way, there is no such thing like "horrific wars", because that is already inclusive part of the definition, and there cannot be such a thing like a "non-horrific war", that is like "non-fluid liquid". the only thing making sense is to say that "war is horrific", if you get the nuance.

and if you don't want war, for wars are horrific, then better don't provoke your neighbour until he has enough of you and launches one against you, in order to get rid of your provocations. Keep on killing his nerves and deplreting his patience, and expect to get struck sooner or later. What is so difficult in understanding that simple truth.

Okay, time for me to move on. No further comments from me on the Gaza war.

[Frame57]

A map highighting the vast lands occupied by Muslims, vs the single, miniscule Jewish state
http://www.masada2000.org/isr-world.gif


I think it's sad that people won't allow the Jews even the tiniest portion of their ancestral home. Talk about extremists.Good point! It is about the size of Jersey. I think the Palestinians simply cannot stand the fact that Israel actually did something productive with the land rather than living like desert rats.

[Dimitrius07]

the average Palestinian kid under overwhelming odds is probably much more educated

Be more specific on wich educated Palestinians your talking about. The one who live in europe maybe :-?. Sorry i didn`t get your message.

[gandalf71]

LOL :rotfl:

That video was no mistake!
It is just a commercial for what is awaiting the Hamas warriors in Djanna! :lol:

Cheers,
Michael

[Skybird]

After posting my last one, there was a 5 minute TV news on German-Austrian-Swiss "3SAT"-Program, in their magazin "Kulturzeit". It is no spectacular news, but has two interesting short notes. Filmed by a Palestinian cameraman working for German first television program "ARD" (one of our two public major stations), they said that like most others they need to depend on Palestinian reporters with whom they cooperate, and who live under constant threat to get sacked by Hamas, since Hamas wants to prevent independant reports from Gaza like Israel prevents foreign reporters going into Gaza.

What is stunning in all material we get from the focus of all censorship, Gaza, is that you never see Hamas people, no fighters, no weapons, and no killed Hamas people. What you see instead is plenty of children, big brown, tearful eyes like that from deer in a searchlight, and crying women.

http://mediathek.daserste.de/daserste/servlet/content/1366190?pageId=487872&moduleId=329478&categoryId=&goto=1&show=

At 00:00:40 you see two men walking down the street. I saw it in big format on TV screen, they are dressed like civlians, but carry weapons, assault rifles, under their coats. Original comment:

"And here, for the first time one can see Islamic fighters. their weapons they carry under their cloathes, one can see that very clearly. They are disguised as civilians. This fact leaves questions emerging. That there are civilian casualties is beyond doubt, that the suffering is huge is clear also - but are all "civilian casualties" really always civilian casualties...?"

And at 00:02:05, when they let the Palestinian cameraman speak, who works for the german ARD channel and created the film material, he says (while filmed by his son):

"Ist also a bad thing that we (his family and himself) are living in a multistory building. Many journalists live inside here. I am afraid that somebody abuses this circumstance, climbs on the roof, and from there opens fire at the Israelis - and after that the Israelis bomb this house."

This was filmed and said in the evening, 21:00 local time, with Israeli frontline just some 300 meters away. Next early morning the family fled.

Now, this really was my last comment on the issue now.

[Onkel Neal]

Neal, it isn't a Muslim vs. Jewish issue, it concerns the actions of Israel in Gaza over the last two weeks.

The fact that more area of the worlds surface is occupied by mostly-Muslim populations is of little comfort to the dead of Gaza.

I disagree, it is very much a Mulsim vs Jewish issue, always has been. The Muslims are in solidarity on this and remind us about it constantly. And as I said, with the Muslims occupying so many, many acres of land, they should back off and allow the Jews to keep their tiny strip. If they did allow this, there would be no dead in Gaza. You make it sound like the Israelis are looking for a war. That's not the case at all. Someone shoots a rocket in my yard, I want the US Marines to go in and straighten it out.

[Onkel Neal]

Neal, by the same standard, look all these English speaking people around the world, it's a shame the Palestinians can't get a piece of Texas where their ancestors used to live (I'm telling you). Talk about extremism.


That doesn't make sense to me. The palestinans and arabs already have massive amounts of land they call their own. The Jews are merely minorities in countries populated by others. They want to have a homeland, and after the way they were massacred in WWII, I don't blame them.

Anyway, if it would solve the issue, send the palestians to Texas, we'll give them a few million acres and they will love the food.

[Foxtrot]

Hail Author Balfour. Praise the Lord. Jesus H. Christ will be back soon.

[Tchocky]

Neal, it isn't a Muslim vs. Jewish issue, it concerns the actions of Israel in Gaza over the last two weeks.

The fact that more area of the worlds surface is occupied by mostly-Muslim populations is of little comfort to the dead of Gaza.

I disagree, it is very much a Mulsim vs Jewish issue, always has been. The Muslims are in solidarity on this and remind us about it constantly. And as I said, with the Muslims occupying so many, many acres of land, they should back off and allow the Jews to keep their tiny strip. That's a ridiculously simplistic way to look at the conflict. What of the Palestinians who are blockaded into a tiny strip of land, and bombed? SHould they just let it slide, because on balance there are more Muslim-square-miles in the world than Jewish-square-miles? Because there are moer adherents to one faith than another?
You make it sound like the Israelis are looking for a war. That's not the case at all. Someone shoots a rocket in my yard, I want the US Marines to go in and straighten it out.
Do you believe that the Israeli action in Gaza is proportionate?

20 dead from Palestinian rockets over the last eight years.
Almost 1000 dead in the last two weeks.

[baggygreen]

Tchocky, I agree that the Israelis bombed in violation of the most recent ceasefire. But was not the target a tunnel, which was by its very existence a violation of the ceasefire? In which case, it would be the Palestinians who violated the ceasefire first, and the Israeli bombing was a reaction to this...? Anyway debate will continue back and forth depending on which source you rely upon for news.

Firstly though, since the UN mandate created Israel they have had to be constantly on guard. After several attacks there came the 6 Day War, in which Israel captured large tracts of land. This land was seized legally and fairly by the Israelis. Had they not been attacked, the land would never have come into their posession.:ping:

They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Israelis pulled out of Gaza and essentially gave it back. Almost immediately though, the attacks started again. they tried to do the right thing (possibly left it a bit late, but they left nonetheless) and were stabbed in the back as they were walking out.

Now the Palestinians went and elected Hamas, a party sworn to see Israel's destruction. given the Jewish history, I can understand them being a little antsy about that. This is, I believe, where debates like the one we're having (civil, not nasty, hooray) stem from. The Israelis control the flow of aid etc to Gaza. But they know that supplies etc going in are almost all pilfered by Hamas. The Israelis could allow more through in the hope that some will reach the majority of the civvies, but Hamas would simply line their coffers more thickly. So, not wanting to supply the enemy they limit the flow, which means the civvies miss out. The more liberal-minded among us feel that aid is the number one priority, that the Israelis ought to be more selfless and allow for and provide more aid to the Palestinians. However, on the other hand there are those of us who see inherent risks in supplying your enemy, particularly one sworn to your destruction. If they allowed more aid in, who disperses it? Hamas...

Personally im in the latter camp. As much as I'd love to see peace and free love and harmonious living break out, I know it won't because there are people too ideologically opposed to it.

A final point to keep in mind. Yes, Civvies are being killed, there is no doubt at all. It always has been and always will be a fact of war. However, whats the difference between a Hamas fighter and a civvy? remove his weapon for a photo, and theres another civvy lying on the ground. Don't think that the palestinians aren't propaganda-savvy. they're looking to gain as much ground with the more liberal-minded westerners, and will lie about it - anyone remember the video of the kid cowering with his dad under fire, and then it emerged they faked the whole thing??

The whole thing there is a mess, and i don't see it ending until a group is wiped out entirely (barring a Star trek style intervention, that is).

[Skybird]

Event of shame in Germany:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,601122,00.html

Spit.

[AntEater]

Not exactly good press, but displaying an Israeli flag in Duisburg is like the proverbial white man donning a Klan hood and running through a Ghetto shouting "******s!".

Duisburg is Eurabia, maybe the worst in Germany.
I suppose most if not all protesters were turkish or other muslims.
And this flag guy was neither jewish nor israeli, a college student, most likely one of those anti-germans who are so leftist that they came full circle and support Bush and everything else...

Still kicking in the door and removing the flag was a bad call. Best course of action would've been not to take any action at all.
A few snow balls wouldn't have cause the building to collapse.
If they started assaulting the house they could've called for reinforcements.

But still, one wonders why the same police that is quite ready to bash some heads in if going up against German protesters is always so peaceful against foreigners.

Re the whole situation, I am still not sure what Israel is trying to accomplish.
Sure it feels good to kill a lot of Arabs, but it won't solve the whole situation.
In the end, I suppose they will simply declare they have succeeded and withdraw and everything starts over in a few months.
I mean they could occupy Gaza, that would stop rocket attacks, but they declared this was not the aim. They could also try to remove Hamas from Power, but that is also not the aim.
So this seems to me like the military action is mostly governed by internal politics of Israel.
In old times, Israel made war with clear cut political and strategic objectives, but today they're lacking that.
The IDF in Ghaza might be better trained and better performing than two years ago in Lebanon, but the politicians are definitely not.

[heartc]

Event of shame in Germany:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,601122,00.html

Spit.
That's why I think Americans have a point with that gun ownership thing they keep going.

Mikhayl:

Israel can do no right, yes? It is very simple, really.
Israel cleared Gaza. Palestinians get to vote. They vote the terrorist organization Hamas. Hamas is shooting rockets. They don't stop. Israel warns them. They don't stop. Israel strikes back.
It doesn't matter to you. There could be 5 armies again about to invade Israel and you would still have them sitting idle and getting killed. Because you are in total agreement with Hamas and other terrorist organizations that Israel has no right to exist. For people like you it doesn't matter what Israel does or does not do, it is always wrong.

The Palestinians have had ample opportunities to give it a rest and start doing something constructive with their time. Instead, they indulge in a culture of hatred against the Jews and the West, teaching their own children that very hatred from early on, in their "schools", mosques and on TV. That is just DUMB.
And please stop calling people here racist all the time, or I should start calling you an Anti-Semite.

[heartc]

Now that Fatah has become an impotent collaborating party they're called the "Pro West moderate Fatah".


The Palestinians have had ample opportunities to give it a rest* and start doing something constructive with their time.

*Holy cow. I mostly just skipped over the stuff you wrote, but after re-reading some of it I got to say these guys would probably run as "collaborators" for you if they did. lol. I suggest you check out when the next plane departs Paris for the Middle East. I heard Hamas is running low on manpower these days.

[Tchocky]

Israel cleared Gaza. Palestinians get to vote. They vote the terrorist organization Hamas. Hamas is shooting rockets. They don't stop. Israel warns them. They don't stop. Israel strikes back.
Hamas did stop shooting rockets

[Onkel Neal]

That's a ridiculously simplistic way to look at the conflict. What of the Palestinians who are blockaded into a tiny strip of land, and bombed? SHould they just let it slide, because on balance there are more Muslim-square-miles in the world than Jewish-square-miles? Because there are moer adherents to one faith than another?

You make it sound like the Israelis are looking for a war. That's not the case at all. Someone shoots a rocket in my yard, I want the US Marines to go in and straighten it out.
Do you believe that the Israeli action in Gaza is proportionate?

20 dead from Palestinian rockets over the last eight years.
Almost 1000 dead in the last two weeks.

Palestinians? tiny strip of land?

I'm not sure if you are unable to understand my simple statement, or you do understand but are attempting to act like you don't get it. Because what I said was, the Muslims should give up trying to eradicate the tiny state of Israel, they are not hurting for living space. So, there should be no rockets from the Gaza strip into Israel, and that would mean no Israeli bombardments on the Palestinians or anyone. Eh?

Proportionate? I don't believe in proportionate response, if you attack or endanger my family the way the Hamas do, wipe them out. I know you don't don't like to hear that, it is too simple of a concept, but that's how I roll. You can tell me I'm bad for thinking this way, that may make you feel better, doesn't matter. There it is. :smug:


Mikhayl, when you start calling people here racist, is pretty much means you've run out of facts or logic. I know not all Muslims are the same, etc, etc. but you can bet as far as their religous identity, they stick together pretty well against non-Muslims (and yes! I know there are sub-groups of Muslims who battle each other).

[Skybird]

I use to agree with Neal on some things, and on others not, but only rarely I agree with Neal to such a wide degree like here, and almost completely. Especially the part of proportionate responses i like. This is no basketball match, and every two pointer against you would mean two of your family dead. therefore you do not want to win just by a narrow margin. You want to win by a clear score X to zero, not allowing any basket being thrown against you at all.

[Skybird]

There is no such thing like a "Communist Muslim". Maybe that is a communist, but a communist surely is no Muslim, as long as Muslim does not mean a cosmetic characteristic as skin colour or haircut or nationality only. So, a communist Muslim essentially is no Muslim at all. "Muslim" is an ideological identification, and some ideologies simply cant be put together. Democracy and totalitarianism, for example. Also, there is no secularism in Islam possible, the ideological basis, the scripture, the foundation, the theology, the idea behind it - call it what you want - rules that out. Islamic ideology does not know such things, such things can only be acchieved in violation of islamic ideology. So use "Muslim" and "Islam" in the meaning described in their foundation, the Quran and Hadith, to use them correctly. If you mean something different, use other terms, else your labels do not mean anything anymore. "Communist Muslim" makes as much sense as "democratic stalinist". maybe such a person is communist, but sure as hell he cannot be Muslim/Muhammedan at the same time as long as words still have an inherent meaning anymore. Islam is Islam. And only that. No inbetween. No second lineage. no alternative quran. No other Muhammad. This is not the Christian churches, this is not the Jews splitting hairs to interpret their brutal deity as a friendly one. Any deviation from muhammad - must be acchieved in explicit violation of Muhammad. and then it is not Muhammedan/Islamic/Muslim anymore, not in any other but a purely superficial, cosmetical understanding.

When will western naive aesthetes finally understand what they are dealing with when saying "Islam"... :roll: You are not dealing with Beauty, but with the Beast. And different to the fairy tale's happy ending, this beast eats beauties, always.

[heartc]

Ahah, look at the radical muslim explaining to you what Islam should be :lol:
I thought the "collaborating" ones were the bad guys?

BTW, lots of funny vids around. I love this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0FXUeNeUME&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlFPm7bymY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M5D5_m93A0

I hope the last one isn't too racist. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w57JLmY5dmw&feature=related

Actually, taking what is shown in the first three vids into account, I find it difficult to insult those people more than they already did do so themselves. Those guys are beyond ridiculous. They are full of it, and anyone letting his children participate in crap like that is a NUTJOB. End of story.

[Skybird]

Ahah, look at the radical muslim explaining to you what Islam should be :lol:

No, look at the Quran and the Hadith, and see the correlation between what is said in there and what has been done in 1400 years of history. Neither you nor the Islam-happy EU will re-invent Islam, or redefine what the term means, and what kind of thinking and tradition stands behind it. Plenty, a whole damn lot, of tolerance (ort is it ignorration) of Muslims for the inner contradictions, the totalitarianism, and the unforgiving determination for power in islam comes from the simple fact of lacking thorough education about Islam, education in a western, analytical tradition. Quran schools do not teach you to question and analyse the quran. They teach you to uncritically adapt your thinking, to understand why it is always right, to memorise the suras word by word, and to fall under their superstitious spell. It is no education, it is brainwashing and conditioning. That is not the kind of education we understand education to be in Greek-western understanding, featuring terms like analsis, trial-and-error, logic, reason, insight and knowledge.

you deiceve yourself, and many muslims deceive themselves as well. Wether you like it or not: Islam IS a radical ideology, it is a fudnametlist ideoloigy, it is a conqueror'S self-justifying ideolgy. And that all is a bit too much brutality all at once as if sensible, well-meaning minds like yours could imagine that somerthign like that could be reality. On eof the biggest problems wioth Islam is that in it's history there never was formed (or survived) a tradition that analytically questioned itself. that was and is heresy, and often led to quick execution, or imprisonment. If you want to know what isalam is, you need to see it not from a muslim point of view, but a Western, analytical point of view. Asking an Islamic scholar about it makes a smuch sense as asking the Pope for an objective critical reflection of the history of the catholic church and the trustworthiness of the church'S dogma: it makes no sense at all. So stop swallowing all that deceptive self-perception Islam is feeding to you. It only leads you to the confusion you are actually in. Come to your mind and then see that it is by far the biggest cultural and historical catastrophe the people of the world ever had suffer from for over one millenium now.

[AntEater]

Doesn't really matter, in a few days/weeks both sides will claim glorious victory, Hamas for just surviving, Israel for having killed a whole lot of guys without losing a whole lot of guys themselves and then it will be up to the EU to clear up the mess, I suppose.
I say a max of 6 months before the rockets fly again and everything starts over.
Maybe Barack Obama can do something constructive, but much will depend on who's going to get elected in Israel.
Livni/Barak most likely improved their chances by mutanting from Peaceniks to tough guys, but I'm afraid if Netanyahu wins, the middle east will see another really dark age.

As Europeans, I often think we shouldn't give a ****. Israel's existence is not threatened by a few Kassams, so they don't need us.
The Palestinians are not exactly appealing to my sympathies either.

I just dont like that every mideast discussion ends in absolutes.
If you don't agree with Israel bombing schools and hospitals, you're an anti-semite.
If you say Muslims have a problem with peaceful coexistence with Jews and Christians, you're a racist.

I do believe Israel to have a right to exist and to be a natural ally of Germany, Europe and western civilization (not for historical debts but for common values) but I still can believe that what they're doing right now will turn out to be utterly useless in the end.



Btw, and Heartcs diatribe about gun ownership and the Duisburg flag incident is the stupidest thing I've read in a long time from anybody here who is not called Subman or Downly ( :D).
If we'd have US gun laws, the Turks/Islamists/whatever would've hurled 9mm bullets against that window, not snowballs.
If that 25 year old Israel fan had been at home and armed, should he have pulled a Baruch Goldstein and mowed down all these guys for not liking the star of David?

[Carotio]

I just saw in the news that Osama bin Laden encouraged his fellow Muslim brothers to start a Jihad against Israel because of the authrocities (sp?) in Gaza.

It wouldn't surprise me, if some really started to do it...:roll:

[heartc]

Heartc, MEMRI is but one of the propaganda arms of Israel. Farfour is a f-uck up but not as much as the mistranslations of MEMRI would have you believe. Denouncing propaganda through propaganda is kind of ironic don't you think ?


Care to provide me with the "proper" translation? Or is your claim that it is incorrectly translated just your own propaganda?
Also, what's with the third video? That's just carnival? Or, let me guess, those are in fact Israeli kids and it's all just staged by one of the "Israeli propaganda arms". Right?

Want to know why Hamas kept shooting rockets into Israel and is hiding among the civilians? Because they know there are people like you in the West. Hamas can't kill Israel all alone, it needs your help.

[Skybird]

Skybird, thanks, I've read your pieces on Islam over and over and that's still the same, and thanks for your concern but Islam isn't feeding me anything. Arguing of the fundamentalist nature of the texts is pointless since reality contradicts it. By your standards there's not a single muslim on earth, yet 1.5 billions people say otherwise. Between their claims and yours it's a no brainer.

Get a reality check. Your mindset is seriously confused, and you distort facts in order to make them support your distortions. And by your direct or indirect and implicit descriptions of your impressions of Islam you make it clear to everybody having studied history and content of Islam that you simply do not know what you are fantasising about. Instead you talk about some kind of populistic urban legends that have little to nothing to do with Muhammad and islam, but gets mislabelled as Islam - in the West. In the Orient, these follies are not as much shared as they are popular amongst Western leftists and wellmeaning philantropists. But realism never was a strength of philantrophism, was it - too tough, too harsh, too unkind.

If you would do that in one of this globe's real islamic societies, you would play with your life, at least with your wellbeing, while voicing that heresy of yours, you sleeping fool. Wake up while you still have some freedom left to defend, fool! Once that rest of freedom is gone, you better do not worry about waking up anymore, for freedom then you only can have in your dreams anymore. In an Islamic world, be afraid to ever wake up again as long as you are not strong enough to fight it - or stupid enough to believe it.

[OneToughHerring]

No, look at the ....

blah blah blah


Yea yea yea...Oh but wait. Weren't you guys basically saying the same thing about Jews a while back? And handicapped people? And Slavs? Etc. :roll:

[Skybird]

Comparing the criminal holocaust against the Jews and the Bolshevist sub-humans, and Nazi racism over nose shape and eye colour, with not agreeing with Islam's black on white written ideology that is illustrated by it's history as well, is so rich that for me this disqualifies you to be taken serious as a debator. Get back to your senses. By the mechanism of your attempt, even drinking coffee with milk and sugar while you prefer coffee to be black, could be called "racism.

I wonder if that would have been said by you as well if you would not have known or thought of me being a German. Judging by the usual way of going in this forum, probably not.

[OneToughHerring]

Comparing the criminal holocaust against the Jews and the Bolshevist sub-humans, and Nazi racism over nose shape and eye colour, with not agreeing with Islam's black on white written ideology that is illustrated by it's history as well, is so rich that for me this disqualifies you to be taken serious as a debator. Get back to your senses. By the mechanism of your attempt, even drinking coffee with milk and sugar while you prefer coffee to be black, could be called "racism.

I wonder if that would have been said by you as well if you would not have known or thought of me being a German. Judging by the usual way of going in this forum, probably not.
I just don't like Germans. My grand-dad fought against them in the Lapland war. They mined almost the whole of Lapland so that long after the war civilians were still dying of German mines. Latest explosions were just awhile ago.

So on the whole, I don't need no Germans telling me about racism.

[baggygreen]

Guys, guys, lets keep it civil, theres a lot of good discussion points and I'd hate to see the thread closed :cool:

I see one thing being bandied around here as the disproportionate use of force by Israel. One thing I learnt on basic training was that when engaging the enemy at a time of our own choosing, it is stupidity to engage with anything less than the full force available. The object is to kill the enemy, with as little loss of life to your own party as possible. Obviously the Israelis aren't going to use their (non-existent ;)) nukes, but in accordance with the military doctrine from which they grew, they are going after the enemy fighters with the full force available to them, whilst exposing their own troops to the minimum possible risk.

Like I said before (it was probably buried in my post) here we have those who believe peace can come from goodwill, and those who dont. we're not going to be able to change each others' minds, everyone knows that. However, it isn't a crime to try and open our minds, to support one party or other but be open to understanding the viewpoint of the other party!

Then we can generate discussion, not personal attacks.

[Thomen]

I just don't like Germans. My grand-dad fought against them in the Lapland war. They mined almost the whole of Lapland so that long after the war civilians were still dying of German mines. Latest explosions were just awhile ago.

So on the whole, I don't need no Germans telling me about racism.

Wow.. .. just... wow..

[Thomen]

Guys, guys, lets keep it civil, theres a lot of good discussion points and I'd hate to see the thread closed :cool:

I see one thing being bandied around here as the disproportionate use of force by Israel. One thing I learnt on basic training was that when engaging the enemy at a time of our own choosing, it is stupidity to engage with anything less than the full force available. The object is to kill the enemy, with as little loss of life to your own party as possible. Obviously the Israelis aren't going to use their (non-existent ;)) nukes, but in accordance with the military doctrine from which they grew, they are going after the enemy fighters with the full force available to them, whilst exposing their own troops to the minimum possible risk.

Like I said before (it was probably buried in my post) here we have those who believe peace can come from goodwill, and those who dont. we're not going to be able to change each others' minds, everyone knows that. However, it isn't a crime to try and open our minds, to support one party or other but be open to understanding the viewpoint of the other party!

Then we can generate discussion, not personal attacks.

IMO this threat turned out worse than all the political ones that were before. Maybe just close it down.

[heartc]

Edit @Heartc, forget my gentle opinions about Israel, take these instead:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1231625457/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/letters-gaza-uk/print
and in French: http://www.protection-palestine.org/spip.php?article6839
All raving antisemites traitors in face of the islamic peril :lol:
Look, Mikhayl: Other than for example that Herring guy, I'm not a racist so I don't care from what country / race / religion / color someone is who said something, but instead what is said and what the facts are / my opinion on the issue is. So if a Jew is talking bull**** (I didn't really read any of the links, sorry), it won't make it any more valid for me. One thing the leftists always like to do is find an antisemitic Jew and then let rip their own antisemitism. If that makes any sense in their world, fine. I'm done here.

Thomen, don't be flabbergasted lol. I think it's quite hillarious to have the same people who find excuses for a yet another destructive and Jew-hating bunch lecture others on racism or the Nazis. Please let's not close this topic, it must remain open if only for the entertainment value.

And just for the record: While I see where Skybird is coming from with his views on Islam, I don't agree with them. Islam must not be violent if the people don't choose to be, so it's up to what the people are making of it. Only problem is when the radicals enjoy so much sympathy even in the West, how does anyone expect the Middle East to change?

[Skybird]

Edited--

I'm born 1967. My mum is born 1948. My father is born 1944. The war ended 1945. My two grandfathers returned heavily crippled, suffering until their end, and all brothers being killed, one executed for treachery while not obeying to the SS. My father'S family got drivben out from some God-forsaken region in the Sudetenland. Take these numbers into account when expressing your racism - or better leave me alone with your poison.




Earlier in the thread you said
Okay, time for me to move on. No further comments from me on the Gaza war.
and

Now, this really was my last comment on the issue now.
It would have done you good to stick to it.



Where have I mentioned the Gaza war since then? I will not discuss Gaza anymore until it is over.

Regarding the rest of your sermon, it simply is this: self-deceptive sermon. The rest of the post I deleted again. Why should I care. I know what knowledge base I base on, and it is not a small library I have read about it, and it were not short trips nor tourist programs I did back in the 90s. So don't give me BS and wishful slogans only. If you are fluent in German, I can send you a list with 30-40 titles you should read and that I have read myself, quiet some of them standard works, on quran and Hadith, their history of creation and editing, the different canons of the prohet tradition and manipulations of different versions of the Quran, on Islamic history, sociology, politics and wars, and impact of certain major linguistic changes in Arabic language, which often get underestimated. I can even recommend you some english books on the matter. And then - assuming you do not wipe all academic analysis off the table when it does not match your agenda and is not considered competent enough by you when not coming from uncritical islam-friendly sources - then we may talk again. Else it simply makes no sense to continue.

[Rockstar]

I was told on another thread to put fairy tales away and look at history. Well let me remind you of some history Mikhayle. As one Muslim, Ruslan Tokchukov warned his fellow Muslims. After analyzing world history, he noted the “brutal end” that befell “all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor Spain, the Russian Tsarist Empire, the Nazi Reich.” He concludes his careful study by mentioning, “a part of the Christian Bible about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it.

Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God’s law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted the Judean people has escaped very bad consequences. I don’t think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslim.” Arab nations should pay attention to Ruslan’s warning and stop their fanatical hatred towards Israel otherwise, as history has proven, they will suffer severe consequences.

Some here seem to be on the wrong side, historically speaking of course all so called fairy tales put aside. :hmm:

[Carotio]

Guys, guys, lets keep it civil, theres a lot of good discussion points and I'd hate to see the thread closed :cool:

Like I said before (it was probably buried in my post) here we have those who believe peace can come from goodwill, and those who dont. we're not going to be able to change each others' minds, everyone knows that. However, it isn't a crime to try and open our minds, to support one party or other but be open to understanding the viewpoint of the other party!

Then we can generate discussion, not personal attacks.

This is IMHO one of the best posts yet in this thread, next after my initial post, which was meant as a humoristic post in the current sad situation.

Don't close the thread, just because there is disagreement. There always will be, just as there always will be chaos in the Middle East, because they cannot get along down there. And thus there will always be pro- and counter-. Support of this or that side. I see it all along all pages of this thread.

But I agree, trying to open the eyes for the undecided is no crime, as long as it is not written in a hatefull tone. So keep it sober.

[Skybird]

I really do try to avoid calling someone a "stupid sleeping fool" over the internet,
Quote me correctly. I did not call you a stupid sleeping fool, but a sleeping fool. Actually I chosed that to describe you as somebody who does something foolish for not knowing it better - but not necessarily being a stupid dumbhead. That'S why I said you are sleeping and should wake up by getting better informed. If I wanted to use tough language against you, there would have been other choices.

And just for your materials and records: refering to political islam and Arab politics without knowing the religious basis of these makes no sense, zero, rien, nada. The difference we make between these, is not knpown in islamic thinking. ISLAM IS POLITICS, and is that before anything else. As long as you do not see that, you already have ended up in a dead end again. and you can't see that as long as you comfortably ignore the aspects you said you do not care for.

The difference you make leads to paradoxons like four weeks ago, when the berlin interior senator (SPD!) complained about Muslim communities in general for not cooperating with the law enforcement officials, and that such communities - all of them - do not show the smallest sign of cooperation in identyfying what you would call radical extremists hiding in their communities. Some weeks before that, from the close circle to Federal Interior ministre Schäuble, the same complaint was voiced, this time regarding not just berlin, but all germany. To you, this is somethign you cannot explain, becasue apparanetly moderate Muslim groups that gave a display of entusiasm about the state-Islam confernece Germqany has created and that meets regularly, also do not cooperate, and do nothing against radicals in their middle, and accept that they give them shelter and protection that way. But the truth is very simple, and a direct implication of muhammeddan superiority thinking that you find laid down in their scriptures: Law enforcement is not as important as protecting a Muslim, even if he violated the laws of the country he lives in. Being Muslim is more imprtant than wetsern law. Since long, and repeatedly on this board, I have attacked muslim communities for passively tolerating and not caring about "radicals" in their rows. But it is a logical consequences of the mindset taught by Islam. I would also refer again to the fact that slamic groups in the West demand special rights for themselves that no othger ethnic or religious minority in the is given, or even demanding. Such demands by muslims even surpass the rights coming by the special status of christian churches. The message behind it is simply this: Muslims and Islam are superior and must go before anything else. That is why islam will never stop pushing for more, and for getting all: for islam's self-perception, this is it's natural right, and it is unnatural for others wanting to resist it. rejecting Islam is something for which in the Islamic world there is no place.

And this, my dear sleeper, again are implications directly deriving from the quality of content of islamic tradition, thinking, and scripture, and the resulting social settings, mindsets, and views of the world and people. And that may be the reason why human right organisation have reported just weeks ago that 2008 has been the year of the greatest and most far-reaching christian and jewish persecutions in Islamic nations since the beginning of recordings of such statistics, and in no toher year as many Christians have been slain by muslim rioters. part of that is due to the massive progroms against Christians and Jews in Iraq. Part of it means: not all.

[Skybird]

I do not wish your or anybody's interest in Islam to be nil - most people's interest is nil, they do not care, and that is why Islam can almost go on stampede and is able to push its interest everyhwere and even force officials and private persons into postures of obedience in advance. Becasue too many people do not care. i want people to see and understand that the cultural survival of europe is at stake - just this, nothing less.

In Nazi-Germany 70 years ago, most Germans were no Nazis, the majority wasnot convinced by hitler and Nazism. But - most of this majority group did not care, accepted to be frightened, claimed family and lacking intersts hindeing them to fight against Nazis. In the end it was a mixture of fear and cowardice, inability, lacking interest, wishful thinking that the fairy queen would solve it. We call such people in German "Mitläufer" (is that fellow traveller in English? I'm not sure, it feels wrong). I personally always thought that they do not have a right to complain if getting judged by the same standards like convinced and confessing Nazis got assessed by. Nor did their inactivity safe them from the harm that came over germany back then. In other words: they had and have to accept their share of responsibility. Just wishing Nazism away, was not good enough, and having wishes for the better alone are no excuse. The Nazis would not have been able to take all germany as hostage, if the majority would have fought against them. Phlegmatism and inactivity can be as harmful as committing the crime yourself. as Thomas Mann put it: "Tolerance of evil is a crime." If you do like that, then this saying matches spot on: fly with the crows, get shot with the crows.

later edit:
P.S. I realised that my second paragraph could be misunderstood. I thought about "moderate muslims" who by their passivity help "radical Muslims' " cause who hide in their middle. But the paragraph gives the impression I was thinking about european, natural Germans, and Muslims moving to Germany. I did not had that in mind. but now thinking about it, it would be a true statement, too. Both is of evil here: the lacking worrying of Germans, and Europeans, about the penetrating changes islam emigration to europe is silently and creepingly enforcing, and the passivity and phlegmatism of moderate muslims regarding the "radicals" in their middle. Desinterested Europeans assist in the spreading of Islam by their desinterest. And desinterested Muslims assist the radicals as well by their lacking interest.

[Dowly]

Wow, why didnt anyone tell there's a fight in this thread? I feel like Tina Turner in Mad Max 3, watching the contestants fight in the Thunderdome! :88)

[OneToughHerring]

Herring,



I'm born 1967. My mum is born 1948. My father is born 1944. The war ended 1945. My two grandfathers returned heavily crippled, suffering until their end, and all brothers being killed, one executed for treachery while not obeying to the SS. My father'S family got drivben out from some God-forsaken region in the Sudetenland. Take these numbers into account when expressing your racism - or better leave me alone with your poison.


Translation: Hey, you are way out of line there.

[Dowly]

Bye bye Onetoughherring. http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/wave.gif

[Thomen]

Herring,

:nope:
if you ever come to a place near me, don't be surprised if I spend you a beer. Directly in your face. And you better don't try to start a rumble over that event then. It might really get me in the mood - and I'm good at it.

I'm born 1967. My mum is born 1948. My father is born 1944. The war ended 1945. My two grandfathers returned heavily crippled, suffering until their end, and all brothers being killed, one executed for treachery while not obeying to the SS. My father'S family got drivben out from some God-forsaken region in the Sudetenland. Take these numbers into account when expressing your racism - or better leave me alone with your poison.
Did Finns cripple your grandfathers? If not keep your nazi mouth shut.

Dude.. you are way out of bounds.

[OneToughHerring]

Herring,

:nope:
if you ever come to a place near me, don't be surprised if I spend you a beer. Directly in your face. And you better don't try to start a rumble over that event then. It might really get me in the mood - and I'm good at it.

I'm born 1967. My mum is born 1948. My father is born 1944. The war ended 1945. My two grandfathers returned heavily crippled, suffering until their end, and all brothers being killed, one executed for treachery while not obeying to the SS. My father'S family got drivben out from some God-forsaken region in the Sudetenland. Take these numbers into account when expressing your racism - or better leave me alone with your poison.
Did Finns cripple your grandfathers? If not keep your nazi mouth shut.
Dude.. you are way out of bounds.

Oh I get it. He threatens me with physical violence and I'm the bad guy? This besides spouting some kind of hate-speech against all muslims? Dudes, if you're going to ban me then ban me. If that's the case then I'll say one thing though, your officiating on this discussion board is way off the line.

[Dowly]

Wow, OTH starts to remind me of myself some years back. Oooh the memories.. anyone still remember the 'chocolate starfish' picture I posted to Gizzmoe? Tee hee hee, still makes me giggle. :ping:

[Subsim Monitor]

Once again, make sure you are discussing the topic, not the other people in the thread. Calling people fools, racists, or nazis here will not keep you afloat, making threats of physical violence, implied, theoretical, or otherwise, is verboten. Remember, even though you feel other people have braindead opinions, you can ignore them or bring up points why you disagree, but don't expect to change their mind or slam down the ulitmate Post of Undeniable Truth. This is the Internets. We are allowing a broader range of discussion than before but we are coupling that with fewer warnings and the possibility of an instant brig slap.

This is a moderator post, not aimed at anyone in particular.

Subsim Admin

[Dowly]

O-M-G... it is the SubSim God!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/11128.gif



Oww, and the Gaza thing sucks too. :hmm:

[Thomen]

O-M-G... it is the SubSim God!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/11128.gif



Oww, and the Gaza thing sucks too. :hmm:

:rotfl:

And yes it does.

[baggygreen]

O-M-G... it is the SubSim God!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/11128.gif



Oww, and the Gaza thing sucks too. :hmm:that is awesome!

[OneToughHerring]

Ok I apologize to Skybird, I'm sure he is not a nazi. However there is this grey area about things that can be percieved as hate speech. The laws about these things vary from one country to the other, from what I know Germany these days is pretty strict about fighting racism, hate speech, etc. Well, I don't know this for sure but I hope this is the case.

And back on topic, the strike by Israel on the UN buildin in Gaza was yet another example of not wrecklessness but sheer maliciousness. It was deliberate, they meant to hit that building. Casualties are way over 1000 dead and probably many thousands of wounded in Gaza.

Thomen,

why are you so should I say amazed? I come from Lapland, and the Lapland war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War) was a nasty war that left a deadly legacy in the forests of Lapland. It didn't exactly endear the Lappish people to Germans. If you go around anywhere in Europe and tell you are a German you will get a pretty negative reaction from most. Especially in the east. Does this surprise you somehow?

Oh, and

Note that that Palestinians in the Westbank remain in a surprising relative silence over what is happening in the Gazastrip.

I don't think so. There's been plenty of coverage in the Finnish press about people protesting in the Westbank, for awhile it looked like another full-fledged Intifada. That may come too one of these days.

[Thomen]

Thomen,

why are you so should I say amazed? I come from Lapland, and the Lapland war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War) was a nasty war that left a deadly legacy in the forests of Lapland. It didn't exactly endear the Lappish people to Germans. If you go around anywhere in Europe and tell you are a German you will get a pretty negative reaction from most. Especially in the east. Does this surprise you somehow?

Did the Germans do anything to you personally? Or is it all based on your Grandfather?
Just curious. Because, if the hatred was passed down to you for 2 generations? You ought to revise your view of the world a bit either way. Nazi Germany does not exists anymore.

I have been in Italy, Holland, Czech Republic, Belgium, England, Ireland, Denmark, France, Austria, Canada and the US. Interestingly, its mostly the younger generation that makes a big stink about WW2. I have personally on multiple occasions seen how seniors, who lived through those times, told the younger ones to (local equivalent for) STFU and grow a brain.

The larger part of my wife's family died in the death camps of the Nazis. As per your view, she should hate the Germans with a vengance. Well, she doesn't. She is married to one. She loves Germany, the people and the culture and wants to move their and live there at some point in the future, as did her mother.

All I am saying is, there no reason to keep the hatred up. ;)

[August]

I'm pretty sure the Vikings terrorized my ancestors. I blame OneToughHerring personally for that! :x

[Thomen]

I'm pretty sure the Vikings terrorized my ancestors. I blame OneToughHerring personally for that! :x

And I got called prejudice for calling Billary Clinton and Jessie Jackson crooks and liars. ;)

[Carotio]

Once again, make sure you are discussing the topic, not...
Subsim Admin

Does this mean that we should get back to my original post?

Which so to speak was an off-topic report from Gaza, kind of funny, contrary to all the on-topic stories from the current sad situation in Gaza, which we get from the news all the time.
Suddenly, this thread turned into a pro- and counter- thread, but I guess, I should have expected it...

I really wanna know if somebody have read, heard or seen something similar?

[heartc]

I really wanna know if somebody have read, heard or seen something similar?

Yes. I used to know a women from the Ukraine.

;)

[Carotio]

I really wanna know if somebody have read, heard or seen something similar?

Yes. I used to know a women from the Ukraine.

;)

HAHA, yes, very funny.
I meant stories like that from the Middle East region

[OneToughHerring]

Did the Germans do anything to you personally? Or is it all based on your Grandfather?
Just curious. Because, if the hatred was passed down to you for 2 generations? You ought to revise your view of the world a bit either way. Nazi Germany does not exists anymore.

I have been in Italy, Holland, Czech Republic, Belgium, England, Ireland, Denmark, France, Austria, Canada and the US. Interestingly, its mostly the younger generation that makes a big stink about WW2. I have personally on multiple occasions seen how seniors, who lived through those times, told the younger ones to (local equivalent for) STFU and grow a brain.

The larger part of my wife's family died in the death camps of the Nazis. As per your view, she should hate the Germans with a vengance. Well, she doesn't. She is married to one. She loves Germany, the people and the culture and wants to move their and live there at some point in the future, as did her mother.

All I am saying is, there no reason to keep the hatred up. ;)

Well tell me, what is similar to present day Germany and nazi-Germany? How much do things really change for one nation? How much is really different and how much is still fundamentally the same? Looking at what Nato is doing around the planet, how is that different from, say, the Kristallnacht?

It's interesting you mention Holland because that is one of the nations where Germans still get a pretty cold reception. Maybe not individual people who don't make a big fuss about being Germans but break out the German flag and you'll get a pretty negative reaction. And this from a pretty civilised western nation, in the east it's worse.

As for keeping hatred up, it's not the hatred or the anger that kills. It's the laughter. I can't take credit for this myself, I'm parapharising Nietzche. That's what's going on in USA, those 18, 19 - year olds sent to Iraq and Afghanistan, made to kill people or be killed. It takes a lot humour and laughter to make things ok in their heads. So lets all laugh it up, joke-boys. :D

[Thomen]

Well tell me, what is similar to present day Germany and nazi-Germany? How much do things really change for one nation? How much is really different and how much is still fundamentally the same?
Lets see.. the spoken and written language is (mostly) the same. We still have the Autobahn.


It's interesting you mention Holland because that is one of the nations where Germans still get a pretty cold reception. Maybe not individual people who don't make a big fuss about being Germans but break out the German flag and you'll get a pretty negative reaction. And this from a pretty civilised western nation, in the east it's worse.
That is not really limited to Germany. All citizens of almost any country are very protective of their 'turf'. Parading around with an 'in your face' attitude generally tends to create some upheaval, regardless where you come from and where you do it. ;)
When you are a guest in a country, you are expected to behave accordingly.


Looking at what Nato is doing around the planet, how is that different from, say, the Kristallnacht?
Now, that is apples and oranges.


As for keeping hatred up, it's not the hatred or the anger that kills. It's the laughter. I can't take credit for this myself, I'm parapharising Nietzche.
Ignorance kills.. laughing is good for you (most of the time). :up:

That's what's going on in USA, those 18, 19 - year olds sent to Iraq and Afghanistan, made to kill people or be killed.
It takes a lot humour and laughter to make things ok in their heads. So lets all laugh it up, joke-boys. :D
Well, what are you going to do when you are thrown into a huge pile o'dung? Complain and throw a hissy fit? I'd rather take it with a grain of humor, especially when I really can't change a situation. ;)

[asanovic7]

Every time I say something someone atacks me for making another flamatory thread..


LOOK AT THIS!
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Couple of guys commenting other religions, couple of guys fighting and commenting things that were like 80 years before, couple of guys just farting..

Second world war, eh?

Let me tell you a story about how it all went in Croatia..
If anyone is interested?

First, this little bs country is here for 1300 years. We were joined to kingdoms of Hungary, later Austria and then Yugoslavia. Few people ever mention when it comes to history Hungarian kings crowned in Croatian capitol because that were joined kingdoms..

Litttle prelude..

Now, 1920s, 30s..

Croatia was part of Kingdom of slovenians, croats and serbs, ofcourse the king was Serbian :rotfl:. That happened because Austria lost the war and Croats s..k when left alone.. :rotfl::rotfl:
As movements against that(serbian expansionism) there were ustashas("nazi") and communists("ruskies"). In fact they worked together hand in hand.
Ofcourse, when WW2 started, and germans took over that piece of s..t of a land, Ustasha regime made something that Croats were waiting for 1000 years, ndh or independent state of Croatia.

Ofcourse, it turned out that was a marionette country, giving half to Italy(and so on, Dalmatia that is called "craddle of Croats"). That ofcourse p..d off many Croats(and the forementioned commies) and many other, so there were partisan movements. In fact in Croatia I think was formed one of the first if not the first resistance armies in europe.
Well, ustashas killed plenty without regret and plenty of people, because of that fought them.

At the end, ofcourse, germans lost, so did ustashas. In fearing of partisans, many civilians fled with ustashas, in fact you had examples where idiots formed hitlerjugend like squadrons and such.
They surrendered to british army, english army as they are, they throwed them back to partisans, who made one of the largest post war massacres in whole europe. In fact, in Dalmatia(as I said a part of Croatia) you have one or two holes in every village. :roll:

So, after ww2 new yugoslavia was formed with yet another f..d up regime like the one that was before ww2. Many people were forced to forget ww2, many vanished in yugoslavia, many partisans fought for Croatia, but were silenced, and so on.

Then it came the breakoff of yugoslavia, Croats united and fought against serbian fascism.
But not all, you had events where ww2 parties fought and feared each other even though serbian army was firing on them.
There were ustasha units in croatian army here and there but in time they were disbanded, thrown in jail or even killed(yep!).
After time and many refugees from bosnia, things setlled in..

OR IT SEEMS THAT WAY?

You have ustasha insignia forbidden, but not red star, although crimes were in numbers even heavily on red star side.
You have majority of ruling men leftovers from yugoslavia where they climbed their way by being a good puppet by telling on their friends(they are ustashas and so on). Some crimes were never payed off.. Some people hate this country and want back yugoslavia..
Now there are examples from this new fresh war where crimes are forgiven by the governement.. And so on..
You have older people that would kill each other gladly but they tolerate..

Despite all of that!
The only guys fighting it out, are 15-25 year old. You have ww2 fights in Zagreb between skinheads and punkers.
They don't know s..t, half of them are ubelievably ignorrant but they fight. They are fighting out their families complexes, pains, hurts..
I can only hope time can heal everything..

Now, who could say to me I am ustasha or partisan or whatever?
I wasn't even in God's plans(:rotfl:) when those things happened..
Those things are long gone..

So, don't call each other nazis, recall ww2 s..t, or whatever, IT IS POINTLESS!!!
What does skibird have to do with adolf hitler?
What does every german today have to do ah?

Shure, we are all different, so are our nations..

Germans are all cocky, full of themselves and watch everyone from their hightower.. :rotfl:
But to call them nazis!?
Fascism, rascism, call them like that, but a ww2 term?

I think of nazi regime as something that happened because of loss of the world war 1, ability of ah to gather the masses, financial crisis(just a little bit of..!?) and one more thing..
Why doesn't anyone explain to me why the nazi regime targeted Jews?
I will say it!
Because all the money was with them.. It was not racial..
The thing is, noone would ever mention ww2 if there haven't been Jewish holocaust..
No matter what were the casualties..
Who mentions ww1? It was similar, yet we always speak of ww2.
We in Croatia had this bloody(twice said!) war 10 years ago, yet we have ww2 issues..
Why?
Because, we are almost nonstop bombarded with that bloody ww2.. On tv, on shows, wherever you watch..

Can someone explain me why?
Everyone payed their cut because of the horrors of ww2, holocaust is marked as on of the greatest tragedies in human history and should be remembered, like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or even things like Dday landing in Normandy.
But we have holocausts today! Yet, we always speak of ww2. What about african wars, what about this and that? What about gulags, what about all those bloody wars that happened long after ww2?

Before I say this..
I am not antisemit!! I don't have anything against Jews!

But, I have to say I am tired of having Jews, whenever they do something, they silence you up with holocaust and whatever.. They practically conquered north america(movies and such), IN India where swastika is a religious symbol, Indians(?) can't use it because of 5000 Jews. OK, call me ignorant, but in India there is about one billion of people. You change religion of about 700 millions because of ww2? Because some ass..pe in europe used it for his symbol!?
And all that because of holocaust?

Scr..w nazis, scr..w hitler, f..k that bolocks!! What do I have to do with ustashas, partisans, nazis and all that other cr*p?

So, I can say that by doing things like this atacks on muslims, by provocating whole world with their s..t, Israel and Jews are feeding long forgotten antisemitism, yep, who can say for himself he hates Jews, because nazis killed jews as part of their financial plan(it was just that, free labour and stolen property)?
Just a bloody idiot!!
I watch american shows.. Like malcolm in the middle, that family doesn't care about religion and it is fun to watch..
You watch every Jew involved show, I AM MAYBE IDIOT but why is it funny "we Jews, we Jews, we have this funny holliday, I am a Jew, We Jews, Jew, Jew, Jew"!?!?!?
Has anyone noticed that??

When will they understand the rest of the world doesn't hate them? And that most of the people don't care about them being Jews!
And that it is not cool to kill muslims just because europeans feel so scared of holocaust issues that they don't want to react?

As far for the muslims?

What did europeans do to the muslim that they became like that? That would be a right question, I suppose? For all you members of the former 150 year ago UK?
When it came that a muslim radical means suicide bomber??

That's from me..

Cheers!

one edit: Only good show where it is apparently (very much like in other shows) needed to stick someone as a Jew, is South Park!

[OneToughHerring]

Ignorance kills.. laughing is good for you (most of the time). :up:

Yea laughing at dead Palestinian kids, or dead kids of any nationality, I'd call that gallows humour, or maybe something worse.

Signing off with this quote:

"To the English I say this: be grateful for the Germans. Were it not for them, you would be the most hated people in Europe."
Simon Munnery, Attention Scum, episode three

asanovic7,

yes I'm aware of the difficult and dark history of your part of the world. The Balkans have been in a pretty difficult place geographically going back to the Roman times. But maybe those difficulties have made the people there all the more stronger. You know, it takes tremendous pressure to make a diamond. :)

[Dimitrius07]

I can understand many things (sorry English is not my first language), but when my "workmate" Muslim (he live in Israel) chearing a direct hit of Hamas rocket, thise is to much even for me. Affter a little chat he desided to stop cause otherwise he will lose his job. I tryed to speak nicely but seems like thise is the only solution he is understand, very sad :cry:.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I can understand many things (sorry English is not my first language), but when my "workmate" Muslim (he live in Israel) chearing a direct hit of Hamas rocket, thise is to much even for me. Affter a little chat he desided to stop cause otherwise he will lose his job. I tryed to speak nicely but seems like thise is the only solution he is understand, very sad :cry:.
So? Americans cheered when Indian tribes who launched raids on our settlers being disproportionately crushed by the US Army not so long ago. Come to think of it, it's really not so different from the policy Israel has pursued during the past decade or so.

Two opposed cultures come into conflict. Inevitably, the strongest "removes" the other from the equation. Nothing new here.

PD