Mystery Sub Photo

[downunder]

Hi guys, I was in this second hand shop with my wife recently, while she was off looking at things i headed to the book section. I was browsing through old national geographics and other old books when i picked up a book "Norbert Casteret, Ten years under the earth. ( It was a book on Caving) I flicked through it and this photo negative fell out of it onto the floor, i picked it up and held it up to the light and saw it was of a sub or 2. I didnt want to pinch the negitive so i put the negitive back in the book and bought it. I had the negative developed and here it is.

Id appreciate anything anyone can tell me. What type of subs are they? I live in Australia and dont recognize the docks (not that id know) and it was an old negaitive, id say from the war years. It looks like there is men on the conning tower and i croped the photo as most of it was sky. (click on image for larger pic, then click again) Didnt know how to post it fullsize here.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/1495/subpicturething003om4.th.jpg (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subpicturething003om4.jpg)

Cheers

[TarJak]

They look like British T class subs.

This shot shows two similar looking subs The one on the left has a similar gun and bulges on the casing:
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/subs/Submarines%20Thermopylae%20%20and%20Token%20alongs ide%20Summer%201948.jpg

This site has some nice shots of various pommy subs. http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/britsubs2.html

Buggered if I can tell you where the shot was taken though.

[downunder]

Tarjak i think your right they do look like T class subs, i dont know that much about them so ill have to have a look. Do you know of any that came to Aussie and does the dock look similar to any Sydney docks. There seems to be writting on the building roof in the background.

Ps and how did you post your photo like that and ill do the same.

Cheers

Downunder

[downunder]

Ahhh Just found this


"Submarine HMS Tabard — refit. From 1960 to 1966 Cockatoo Docks & Engineering Co. Pty Ltd was responsible for routine major refits and maintenance of three British ‘T’ class submarines which were stationed in Sydney as the 4th Submarine Squadron: HMS Tabard, HMS Trump and HMS Taciturn."

Do you think this could be Cockatoo Island Shipyard?

[TarJak]

Possibly. Could see if you can google some period images of the Island and see if you can get matches on the features in the photo. Tough assignement as they look fairly generic british dockyard buildings built in hundreds of harbours around the world.

Seeing the negative was found down under there is a good chance it was taken here.


From what I can find they were station at HMAS Penguin which is in Balmoral in Middle Harbour. The other alternatives are Garden Island or even Goat Island. I don't think HMAS Platypus was in existence in WWII.

EDIT: You could always drop these guys a line: http://upperiscope.com.au/feedback_form.htm

Someone there might be able to help out. They have a page on the 4th Sqn: http://upperiscope.com.au/history/history_sm4.htm

[downunder]

Cheers Tarjak, Thanks for your input, I noticed the National Archives of Australia has photos of the boats i just need to fiqure out how to see them.
Thanks for your help.

Downunder

[JScones]

Maybe send a copy of the photo to the Director of the RAN Heritage Centre, Cmdr Shane Moore. I'm sure there's a contact link on the Navy website (www.navy.gov.au (http://www.navy.gov.au)).

He's helped me out in the past with various WWII RN and RAN questions.

Hopefully, just by fluke, he may recognise those buildings from somewhere else.

But it doesn't look like Cockatoo Island to me though...

http://www.naa.gov.au/naaresources/publications/research_guides/guides/dockyard/images/pic014.jpg

(Granted this is pre-WWII, but I think the Island was largely unchanged until the 1970's when it had some renos done to support maintenance of the Oberon Class Submarines).

[Mush Martin]

:|\\Hmmmmmm......not much to work with there!


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/2Ts.jpg

I havent located any giveaway clues in the blowups, I would have to
agree with JSC that it isnt Cockatoo Island I am unable to detect a
building layout in the Island picture I tried reversing it to be sure but
still didnt locate a match.

Freemantle?

I will see if I can narrow down the candidates a little later.

ps. No People on towers I do see both have external tubes though aft
of the tower.

The dutch boats ?

[Captain Nemo]

Ahhh Just found this


"Submarine HMS Tabard — refit. From 1960 to 1966 Cockatoo Docks & Engineering Co. Pty Ltd was responsible for routine major refits and maintenance of three British ‘T’ class submarines which were stationed in Sydney as the 4th Submarine Squadron: HMS Tabard, HMS Trump and HMS Taciturn."

Do you think this could be Cockatoo Island Shipyard?

Interesting photos thanks for posting. I don't think your right about the dates you quote above. After WWII the T-Class boats that the RN kept in service were rebuilt between 1950 and 1956. The hulls were streamlined and lengthened giving them fin-type conning towers. Basically they were modernised to reduce noise and increase underwater speed. The subs in the photos you have show the old hull design.

As an aside, my uncle served on a T-Class boat during the closing stages of WWII. I believe he was based in Fremantle Australia on HMS Tiptoe.

Nemo

[downunder]

Thanks Guys, Yes Freo may be the answer. It looks like 4 guys around the guns on the front of the boats and 1 guy up amomgst the scopes? I like to pin it down where and when, and i wonder if an Aus gov body wants the negative.

Cheers Guys

[TarJak]

After looking closer and comparing features I'm almost certain they are T class. What had me confused was thinking the gun "turret" was the stern but I think looking at the hull shape that the photo was taken from the bow end but cutting off the bow in the shot just forward of the folded diving planes. The shot I've posted below of the two T boats in Freo was what convinced me.

Most likely is in Freo if it was WWII as I can't find any references of T boats in Sydney during the war. Although this shot shows that not all of the T's that visited Sydney were streamlined. This one is of HMS Thorough in Sydney Harbour though the date is unknown:
http://upperiscope.com.au/history/SM4/thorough.jpg

This shot is of two T boats in Freo which shows the folded bow planes, the bulges on the forward casing, the raised gun platform and the stern tube bulges that match the ones in your shot quite closely:
http://www.fremantleports.com.au/sitePrintVariant/About/PhotoGallery/C1945_British_Submarines_at_North_Wharf_rdax_1024x 849.jpg

[FIREWALL]

Great luck in finding pic and getting an adventure out of it. :yep:

Not won'ting to go OT but, as I live mostly on an island I love the names of those islands. :up:

[JScones]

I like to pin it down where and when, and i wonder if an Aus gov body wants the negative.
You must have missed my response then. :hmm:

[downunder]

JScones Thanks for the tip, Ill try him and maybe he can help.

[TarJak]

Don't forget to post back if you get an answer!

[Steeltrap]

Great luck in finding pic and getting an adventure out of it. :yep:

Not won'ting to go OT but, as I live mostly on an island I love the names of those islands. :up:

Many of the posters in this thread live on an island, too (as do I)....admittedly a rather large island, but an island nonetheless....

That photo TarJak posted....the front view of the sub on the right looks like the face of a rather angry beastie!!

:rotfl:

[Monica Lewinsky]

Many of the posters in this thread live on an island

Yep, they do ... They need to join some kind of NAVY outfit and so should you as shown below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw

[FIREWALL]

Great luck in finding pic and getting an adventure out of it. :yep:

Not won'ting to go OT but, as I live mostly on an island I love the names of those islands. :up:

Many of the posters in this thread live on an island, too (as do I)....admittedly a rather large island, but an island nonetheless....

That photo TarJak posted....the front view of the sub on the right looks like the face of a rather angry beastie!!

:rotfl:

How did either one of those subs fire the top torpedos when on the surface ? Those things look like bugeye headlites. :D

[Weiss Pinguin]

That photo TarJak posted....the front view of the sub on the right looks like the face of a rather angry beastie!!

:rotfl:
I have to say... The T Class is definitely not one of the prettiest boats I've seen. :lol: That's not to say it's ugly, but if I met one on the street my first reaction might be to slap it. ;)

[TarJak]

Great luck in finding pic and getting an adventure out of it. :yep:

Not won'ting to go OT but, as I live mostly on an island I love the names of those islands. :up:

Many of the posters in this thread live on an island, too (as do I)....admittedly a rather large island, but an island nonetheless....

That photo TarJak posted....the front view of the sub on the right looks like the face of a rather angry beastie!!

:rotfl:

How did either one of those subs fire the top torpedos when on the surface ? Those things look like bugeye headlites. :D
there are a few more islands in Sydney harbour including a Shark Island. You can visit most of them by boat and even camp overnight on Cockatoo Is:
http://au.travel.yahoo.com/great-outdoors/australia/new-south-wales/sydney/sydney-harbour-islands-new-south-wales.html

[downunder]

Ok, I have posted a link to the RAN heritage centre of the photo, so we will sit back and see what they come up with. I keep you guys posted.

Cheers

[TarJak]

Cool. Hope they can help out.

[JScones]

Be patient. IIRC last time it took me a month to get a response.

[downunder]

Well i figure the photo has been hidden that long, a few more months wont hurt. Thanks for the heads up!

[JScones]

Just wondering if you ever got a response?

I found these photos today and thought of this thread...

HMS Telemachus, 17 Dec 1949
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4010/streamgate.jpg

I see some similarities in the building in the left of your photo to the building above.

HMS Vox (P73), 16 Oct 1945
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4010/streamgate.jpg

I see some similarities in the building in the right of your photo to the building above.

HMS Tactician, 7 Jan 1953
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4010/streamgate.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/107/streamgatea.jpg


All these shots were taken from the same location which I think is the same location as the one in your picture...and that is...Yarra Bank, South Melbourne (the giveaway is the "Johnson's Tyne Foundry Pty Ltd" sign, and if you squint you may also notice the tugboat's name - Keera).

As it seems you bought your book in Melbourne, it's looking like a pretty good match. The only question remaining is whether your photo was taken in 1950 or 1953. Regardless though, the subs will be two out of HMS Telemachus, HMS Thorough and HMS Tactician.

(All photos taken by Allan C Green, who was based in Melbourne)

[JScones]

Here's a newspaper clipping taken from the SMH, dated 3 Jan 1953 (4 days before above photos were taken)...

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1882/image2fnh.jpg

[Ford Prefect]

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/107/streamgatea.jpg



Looking at the bow there, it looks like she's had an argument with something substantial.

[TarJak]

Cool find Jaeson. Looks like a pretty good match.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

I believe that it is the HMS Tactician on the negative photo.
Its the only one that has that white thing around the bell, front side of the conning tower.

[JScones]

Actually, both subs in the OP photo have bell and badge, as was the usual case when docked in port.

But I agree, I think at least one of the subs is Tactician. And gut instinct suggests to me that the other is Telemachus, based solely on period newspaper reports and their movements throughout the area.

Talking about newspaper reports, here's a nice period piece giving a brief look at life on board a T-Class in the early 1950's...

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5868/image1yly.jpg

[downunder]

Amazing, What a bunch of detectives you guys are! I have not had a reply from the Navy as yet, mind you Jscones said it would take a while for a reply. But it looks like from all your information i may not need them. Now i wonder if the photo was taken by someone from the boat or just the public taking happy snapps. It makes me know wonder if any of the crews are still alive or if they have all passed away, were talking about 60 years ago, so i wonder? I would like to thank you all for your input and the wonderfull photos you have all posted.

Cheers

Downunder