Story of the USS Grunion SS-216...

[woofiedog]

After more than 65 years, brothers find their father's sunken World War II submarine.

http://cuatrotipos.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/grunion.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0821606.jpg

Photos of the wreck: http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08216d.htm

NBC New's USS Grunion video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb5WglrbHIg

The submarine Grunion arrived at Pearl Harbor on June 20, 1942. The vessel completed pre-patrol training before departing on its first war patrol June 30. Grunion's commanding officer, Lt. Cmdr. Abele, was ordered to proceed to the Aleutian Islands and patrol westward from Attu on routes between the Aleutians and the Japanese Empire. On July 10, Grunion was reassigned to the area north of Kiska. Over the next 20 days, the submarine reported firing on an enemy destroyer, sinking three destroyer-type vessels, and attacking unidentified enemy ships near Kiska.
Grunion's last transmission was received on July 30, 1942. The submarine reported heavy antisubmarine activity at the entrance to Kiska, and that it had 10 torpedoes remaining forward. On the same day, Grunion was directed to return to Dutch Harbor Naval Operating Base. There was no contact or sighting of the submarine after July 30, and on August 16, Grunion was reported lost.

On the morning of 31 July 1942 a Japanese troop transport was attacked by Grunion. Only one of the four torpedoes hit and detonated, and Grunion surfaced to finish her target by gunfire. However, Kano Maru returned fire with her own three-inch deck gun and .50-caliber machine guns. Allegedly, a single shell hit on Grunion's conning tower sank her.

Lt. Cmdr. Jim Abele commanded the USS Grunion, a submarine sunk during World War II. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28434956/)

[gimpy117]

One theory is a circle runner...maybe the tang wasn't the only one...:hmm:

it would explain the massive damage such as 23 feet of missing bow
the rear damage could be Implosion damage...etc.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mbrewsterabele/ChristleySketchOfTheGrunion#

http://picasaweb.google.com/mbrewsterabele/ChristleySketchOfTheGrunion#5222865492832211298

[woofiedog]

There is more to that story of a circling torpedo here in this link: http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08216e.htm

And it might very well have been the sad fate of the crew of the USS Grunion. By the looks of the extensive damage to the sub... it would seem that a bit more than a hit by the deck gun could have made this possible. http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0821679.jpg

[jazzabilly]

The circle running torpedo seems to be the most likely hypothesis; the crew of the merchant that she was attacking heard a loud "bang" and that was that. Her hatches were open when they found her, which indicates that she was on the surface when she went down.

Probably the same thing killed Prien as well. C'est la guerre.

[gimpy117]

actually the people who found her think her hatches were blown open "by massive internal Pressure" (when she reached crush depth). you can still see in the pictures that the dogs are still engaged.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mbrewsterabele/AttackAnalysis2OpenHatch#

[On The Bottom]

Hi folks. New member here. Looks like an interesting group. Thanks for the add.

Was wondering if anyone would be interested in further discussion regarding the USS Grunion. I was in the group that was working on the attack analysis and have a differing opinion of how the sub and her crew met their end. God rest them all.

[Aktungbby]

On The Bottom! Way to necro a sunk submarine thread after 11 years.:Kaleun_Salute: https://www.livescience.com/66099-wwwii-grunion-submarine-found.html https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/NjEpHFBqUapFJy4VCJTxkg-970-80.jpg.webp vs https://www.legion.org/library/9370/grunion-mystery-solved-last An account by a Japanese officer aboard the freighter Kano Maru claims that after being torpedoed by a submarine north of Kiska, Alaska, the crew saw ripples in the water, fired their deck guns and hit its conning tower.

“We originally thought a 3-inch shell had hit the shears, the supports that hold the periscope,” Bruce says. “Recently, though, we met Cmdr. Charlie Tate, who did eight war patrols on Gato, a sister ship of Grunion. He told us the damage to the shears was almost certainly not caused by a 3-inch shell, but by something larger. Right now the hypothesis we are leaning toward is that it was a circular torpedo that did not explode.”
If that’s the case, Kano Maru actually shot at a washing wave caused by the bubble that rose to the surface when Grunion imploded. A jammed rear dive plane combined with a disruption would have left the submarine unable to blow its forward ballast tanks and falling fast.
In August 1942, the Navy recognized Grunion as missing. The Abeles never even got to say goodbye to their father, whom everyone, even his sons, affectionately called “Jim.” He took them to lunch at the Officers’ Club at the submarine base in Groton, Conn., before saying he had work to do. That work was a classified mission in the North Pacific.

[Mad Mardigan]

Ahoy, just wanted to add to the info on the Grunion. Found this on youtube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF5stOv7PeQ

May those still out on eternal patrol, rest in peace... :Kaleun_Salute:

M. M.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Bubblehead1980]

The CO's son did a Ted Talk on the subject. Enjoyed it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL9XAf_xAXE

[On The Bottom]

Sorry for the delay. I apparently lost all of my detailed notes when I moved. So here goes from memory:

Captain Abele, of the USS Grunion sent a status report to ComSubPac reporting attacks on patrol vessels in the Aleutian Island area. Mentioned in this report was his torpedo status. The boat was down to it's last six torpedoes with all being in the forward room. This message was decoded by Edward Beach and mentioned in his book, Submarine. Messages were often decoded by other than the addressee out of boredom and to see what other boats were doing.

Fast forward to the morning of July 31, 1942. Grunion is on it's first war patrol and the crew is inexperienced. They fire two fish at the cargo vessel Kano Maru at 0547. The torpedoes are sited by the target and the captain orders hard right rudder". The maneuvering by the Kano Maru causes the first torpedo to miss astern. The second torpedo strikes the cargo ship in the engine room on the starboard side. This causes flooding of the engine room and disables the 3" gun mount on the stern. This leaves the forward 3" gun and machine guns in the bridge area the only functioning defense for the Japanese crew. The Grunion fires a second torpedo at the ship's starboard side but this shot runs deep and is a miss. At 0607 the grunion fires a third salvo of three fish at the freighter's port side after circling around the ship's stern. The first and second torpedoes strike the side of the ship but do not explode. The last fish misses astern. During this time the Kano Maru has been firing at the Grunion's periscope with her remaining guns. This has no apparent effect. Grunion, now out of torpedoes executes a 180 degree turn to port and proceeds on the reciprocal course. Shortly after the turn the captain of the Kano Maru observers a "low level explosion" in the general area of the submarine's position following the final by the Kano Maru's forward 3" gun.

The Abele family have decided to go with a circular torpedo theory but the details of the attack and the wreck fail to bear this out. The NAVSOURCE site http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08212b.htm shows the layout of the high pressure air system with the six flasks providing air to the forward torpedo room secured to the outside of the pressure hull above the forward torpedo room. My analysis hinges on this information and that of the Captain of the Kano Maru.

The Grunion has fired six torpedoes within a 20 minute period. This amounts to the loss of 18,000 pounds of ordinance from the forward torpedo room within 20 minutes. Half of that being at the end of the time period. The transfer rate of the trim pump, with the boat's depth between 0 and 200 ft, is 1,500 lbs per minute. At this rate it will take approximately 12 minutes to compensate for the torpedo shots. Keep in mind the last three were at the end of the time period. Also of note is the fleet boats propensity to squat by the stern while turning. A 180 degree turn will exacerbate this effect.

After executing the turn Grunion's bow is now dangerously close to the surface. The forward diving planes are at full dive. The "washing wave" described by the Captain of the Kano Maru was most likely the water washing over the diving planes and up to the surface. At a 45 degree angle above and aft of the diving planes are the air flasks above the torpedo room. The last shot from the freighter at the 'washing wave" strikes the high pressure air flasks severing the upper part of the pressure hull and flooding the forward torpedo room. See wreck photos showing downward deflection of the upper hull in this area. Forward buoyancy and diving control are lost. The Grunion begins an uncontrolled dive.

The forward battery room is the first to reach crush depth. The forward battery goes to full ground which causes an explosion in the after battery room. The blast severs the dogs on the after battery room hatch forcing the hatch open. The gasket on the hatch cover is dislodged by the blast and is fouled on the hatch itself. The conning tower and control room reach crush depth next. The forward portion of the conning tower begins to collapse drawing the periscope shears down and forward. The bridge hatch is deformed allowing water to enter halting the collapse of these compartments. The motor room, maneuvering room and after torpedo room collapse in turn.

I fail to see how a circular running torpedo striking the bridge could have caused any of this damage. Also, the damage of a circular run striking the bridge area would have left that area of the boat in a much different condition. I would appreciate any comments on this scenario regarding the loss of the Grunion and her crew.

[Bubblehead1980]

Sorry for the delay. I apparently lost all of my detailed notes when I moved. So here goes from memory:

Captain Abele, of the USS Grunion sent a status report to ComSubPac reporting attacks on patrol vessels in the Aleutian Island area. Mentioned in this report was his torpedo status. The boat was down to it's last six torpedoes with all being in the forward room. This message was decoded by Edward Beach and mentioned in his book, Submarine. Messages were often decoded by other than the addressee out of boredom and to see what other boats were doing.

Fast forward to the morning of July 31, 1942. Grunion is on it's first war patrol and the crew is inexperienced. They fire two fish at the cargo vessel Kano Maru at 0547. The torpedoes are sited by the target and the captain orders hard right rudder". The maneuvering by the Kano Maru causes the first torpedo to miss astern. The second torpedo strikes the cargo ship in the engine room on the starboard side. This causes flooding of the engine room and disables the 3" gun mount on the stern. This leaves the forward 3" gun and machine guns in the bridge area the only functioning defense for the Japanese crew. The Grunion fires a second torpedo at the ship's starboard side but this shot runs deep and is a miss. At 0607 the grunion fires a third salvo of three fish at the freighter's port side after circling around the ship's stern. The first and second torpedoes strike the side of the ship but do not explode. The last fish misses astern. During this time the Kano Maru has been firing at the Grunion's periscope with her remaining guns. This has no apparent effect. Grunion, now out of torpedoes executes a 180 degree turn to port and proceeds on the reciprocal course. Shortly after the turn the captain of the Kano Maru observers a "low level explosion" in the general area of the submarine's position following the final by the Kano Maru's forward 3" gun.

The Abele family have decided to go with a circular torpedo theory but the details of the attack and the wreck fail to bear this out. The NAVSOURCE site http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08212b.htm shows the layout of the high pressure air system with the six flasks providing air to the forward torpedo room secured to the outside of the pressure hull above the forward torpedo room. My analysis hinges on this information and that of the Captain of the Kano Maru.

The Grunion has fired six torpedoes within a 20 minute period. This amounts to the loss of 18,000 pounds of ordinance from the forward torpedo room within 20 minutes. Half of that being at the end of the time period. The transfer rate of the trim pump, with the boat's depth between 0 and 200 ft, is 1,500 lbs per minute. At this rate it will take approximately 12 minutes to compensate for the torpedo shots. Keep in mind the last three were at the end of the time period. Also of note is the fleet boats propensity to squat by the stern while turning. A 180 degree turn will exacerbate this effect.

After executing the turn Grunion's bow is now dangerously close to the surface. The forward diving planes are at full dive. The "washing wave" described by the Captain of the Kano Maru was most likely the water washing over the diving planes and up to the surface. At a 45 degree angle above and aft of the diving planes are the air flasks above the torpedo room. The last shot from the freighter at the 'washing wave" strikes the high pressure air flasks severing the upper part of the pressure hull and flooding the forward torpedo room. See wreck photos showing downward deflection of the upper hull in this area. Forward buoyancy and diving control are lost. The Grunion begins an uncontrolled dive.

The forward battery room is the first to reach crush depth. The forward battery goes to full ground which causes an explosion in the after battery room. The blast severs the dogs on the after battery room hatch forcing the hatch open. The gasket on the hatch cover is dislodged by the blast and is fouled on the hatch itself. The conning tower and control room reach crush depth next. The forward portion of the conning tower begins to collapse drawing the periscope shears down and forward. The bridge hatch is deformed allowing water to enter halting the collapse of these compartments. The motor room, maneuvering room and after torpedo room collapse in turn.

I fail to see how a circular running torpedo striking the bridge could have caused any of this damage. Also, the damage of a circular run striking the bridge area would have left that area of the boat in a much different condition. I would appreciate any comments on this scenario regarding the loss of the Grunion and her crew.


I tend to agree with your analysis , which is based on the account of the Kano Maru. Makes more sense than the circular run in this case. A lucky shot by the merchant's deck guns set off a tragic series of events the led to Grunion diving below crush depth. A factor not mentioned but should be, and is not meant to be disrespectful of the crew in any manner, is their inexperience. This was early in the war, the first war patrol of a new submarine. Sure, the CO and XO and senior enlisted had requisite experience, but overall the crew was green, under combat, the stress etc. Not saying anyone grossly failed, would be insulting to presume such. However, experience is a factor. Let us not forget the early patrols were often learn as you go type affairs as it was found war patrol was quite different than expected based on training.

[les green01]

they would been figure out how much water to take to cover the loss weight of the fish before they even fire did they take on too much not enough maybe circuliar run maybe there a reason why sonar is telling you fish running hot straight and normal a 3 inch shell not going cause that much disturbance and you got one eye witness account the police will tell you when checking a crime out everyone see's things differnt that why they get several witness version then piece it together then we got to take consideration the damage done when reach crush dept did a crew member make a mistake possible subs are dangerous to begin with that why they repeat things and say things a cerrtian way and why they are cross train we can play armchair commanders all day long but only way we would know be build a time machine go back to that time get on the boat and get back off before death struck let face never going know just a unlucky crew unlucky boat 51 other unlucky boats war is just a matter of luck you lucky you survive unlucky you dont

[On The Bottom]

There were actually two witnesses on the Kano Maru and their accounts are quite similar regarding the attack. I understand what you are saying and agree whole heartedly. However, the problem with history is that it is what it is and we must make the best of what we are given. In the end the captain's sons are correct. If the torpedoes had performed "as advertised" the Grunion would not have been lost. Experience being a factor, O'Kane, on the Tang, had his diving officer assume a bow down attitude before firing from the forward tubes. This is mentioned in his book Clear the Bridge. The Bottom line is that if the Grunion's crew had a properly functioning weapon they and their boat probably would have survived the patrol to fight again.

Thanks Admiral Christie

[les green01]

that the biggest crime sending the boats and men out with faulty weapons navord and i mean everyone in navord should been sent out tie too the fish or line up against the wall and shot or tie face down on a ant hill

[On The Bottom]

The Germans had similar problems with their fish at the beginning of the war. Donitz got it sorted out in short order. The person who was Admiral Christie's counterpart was summarily executed for treason.

[propbeanie]

that the biggest crime sending the boats and men out with faulty weapons navord and i mean everyone in navord should been sent out tie too the fish or line up against the wall and shot or tie face down on a ant hill
The Germans had similar problems with their fish at the beginning of the war. Donitz got it sorted out in short order. The person who was Admiral Christie's counterpart was summarily executed for treason.
There's the problem with that... he was executed. No one actually responsible was held accountable in Germany nor the US. The problem with the torps when you come down to it, was a failure to test the pistol prior to sending it out to the field. The US shot two land-based Mark 14s at a stationary hulk. One went under, one exploded. Therefore, they claimed it a success. That's what the US went to war with, a 50-50 chance - at best - that the torpedoes would properly detonate. However, they never tested the impact pin, and they never tested the magnetic in any other place in the world. Did anyone in BuOrd understand the earth and its magnetic fields? Apparently not. Who knows how many skippers were removed from submarines 100% because of their torpedoes? From what I've read, probably over half of the ones that were relieved of command. How many people in the US government and the US Department of the Navy were relieved of their jobs? None... Same in Germany, other than they were more harsh apparently with the ONE fellow... It ultimately falls in Das fuhrer's lap... :salute: