In the Movies: Operation Valkyrie

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I just saw the movie Operation Valkyrie starring Tom Cruise. Based on the true story of Claus von Stauffenberg and the German Military Restiance in the plot to assainate Adolf Hitler. All who where involed in the plot where arested and sentenced to death by firing squad. The story of Von Stauffenberg is a testiment that one man can change the world, for better or worse is the desion of that man. Here are some link for the history behind the story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_Schenk_Graf_von_Stauffenberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

If they had only had been sucessful, what the world would be.

[Dowly]

I bet after 3 posts, this thread will turn into either a) Tom Cruise hate thread or b) Scientology hate thread. :hmm:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I bet after 3 posts, this thread will turn into either a) Tom Cruise hate thread or b) Scientology hate thread. :hmm: Yet is not about eather.:yep:

[Tchocky]

Any good?

[Captain Vlad]

Yeah, I was thinking about seeing it but was a little leery. How was it?

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

The movie is quite worth seeing, it keeps with the historical facts of the events. The special effects are stunning. Other than that there are only two faults that I have found with the movie, the plane that brings Von Stauffenberg to the Wolfs Lair was not a JU-52 but an HE-111 and the the trucks that where used in the film had Benz markings and not Opel Blitz.

[Captain Vlad]

I think I can forgive them a couple of vehicles.:D

[A Very Super Market]

LOL tom cruse suks an sientology


I didn't go see Valkyrie because I thought it would get arcade-style with the Germans. Might go see now.

[mengle]

to bad that it is in english :-? , he manage to speak Japans in The last samurai why not german in this movie, you lose all the charm of the story like this :nope:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

to bad that it is in english :-? , he manage to speak Japans in The last samurai why not german in this movie, you lose all the charm of the story like this :nope: The start of the movie for the first five to six minutes he does speak german.

[kiwi_2005]

I have to see this movie i remeber reading about this in a book, then seen a documentary on it and now theirs a movie out about it with Tom Midget I mean Cruise! Tom might be a retardo but he does make good movies. Gotta give him that.

[Schroeder]

If they had only had been sucessful, what the world would be.
I don't think it had changed much. Remember it was July 1944. THe west allied had already landed in Normandy and the Russians were pressing westwards. What would it have changed?
The Russians would have never accepted a truce, not while they were on the winning side. And the west? I don't know but that isn't important since the main battles and the biggest threat came from the east.

I think von Stauffenberg and all the others are highly overrated. Just imagine WHEN did they try to get rid of Hitler? July 44 when everyone knew it was over. If they had done that a year earlyier it might had had a chance to change something.

Have a look at those:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I value them much higher than a bunch of soldiers who did not dare to kill Hitler in an open battle. Stauffenberg met Hitler personally. If he believed so much in Germany and that Hitler had to be eliminated than he had shot him with his pistol instead of planting a bomb.

[Oberon]

Perhaps a more interesting concept is if the Germans had surrendered to the Western Allies only, thus placing the Soviets in the position of if they continue their westward advance they risk coming into open conflict with the Western Allies. How much would the map of Germany have changed? :hmm: Would the Soviets have accepted a German truce in these circumstances? I know Raptor probably wouldn't :lol:

[Lurchi]

I think it would really made a big difference:

1. The human one: During the last 1 1/2 years of the war there were as many deads as during all the war years before - together. The last part saw an increase in brutality in every respect.
2. The strategic one: After Hitler death an opening of the western Front could have been an option offering the opportunity to thrown everything against the Russians to keep them out of middle Europe. No Arnheim or Ardennes offensive: It would have been the Western Allies who would have reached Berlin and Prague - maybe even Warsaw first, thus putting them in a much better position of at Potsdam.

[Skybird]

German critics did not give it the cold welcome that was to be expected, but then again the general statement is: it is trivial, with Cruise giving a trivial performance as well, leaving you wondering why anybody would have followed Graf Stauffenberg if he really would have been the way Cruise plays him. Several very inconsistent scenes have been pointed out as well.

From what I read I conclude this film is not one of the better ones, and will be forgotten soon. I have no plans to spend my money on it.

[UnderseaLcpl]

German critics did not give it the cold welcome that was to be expected, but then again the general statement is: it is trivial, with Cruise giving a trivial performance as well, leaving you wondering why anybody would have followed Graf Stauffenberg if he really would have been the way Cruise plays him. Several very inconsistent scenes have been pointed out as well.

From what I read I conclude this film is not one of the better ones, and will be forgotten soon. I have no plans to spend my money on it.


Aw, c'mon Sky. We make bad war movies about everybody, including ourselves, and we watch them all the time. :D

Cruise really wasn't that good, though, imo. So I'd agree with that. Actually, you could clip Cruise's expressions from most of that movie, and paste them over his face in a lot of his other movies, and nobody would notce.

I really just went to see ww2-era uniforms and equipment rendered in an enjoyable and realistic fashion. I'd recommend it just for that, and for being the first major "hollywood" war movie in a while that didn't have some star gunning down dozens of axis troops at a time, in the guise of "historical accuracy"

Not quite in the same category as Letters from Iwo Jima or Flags of our Fathers, but it was enjoyable enough.

[Skybird]

Ha, I watched "Letters" yesterday for the second time, to refresh my first impression from it's DVd release. It's an okay movie, but nothing more. "Flags" I simply found extremely boring, and shallow. both movies I do not rank amongst Eastwood's better movies (as director). His most mature director's works probably are "The Bridges of Madison Country" and "Million Dollar Baby". "Unforgiven" also was a very good character movie.

But "Bridges" I like best of them all. Very mature, and sensible.

[nikimcbee]

I bet after 3 posts, this thread will turn into either a) Tom Cruise hate thread or b) Scientology hate thread. :hmm:

You are correct. All I can see, is Tom cruise, wearing a nazi uniform, jumping up and down on oprah's couch, saying; "scienctology uber alles."

He's a freak, I can't even stand top gun anymore.:roll: :rotfl:

[Schroeder]

I think it would really made a big difference:

1. The human one: During the last 1 1/2 years of the war there were as many deads as during all the war years before - together. The last part saw an increase in brutality in every respect.
And how would that have changed after Hitlers death? The Russians would not just stop and go home, they wanted revenge for everything that happened the years before.

2. The strategic one: After Hitler death an opening of the western Front could have been an option offering the opportunity to thrown everything against the Russians to keep them out of middle Europe. And the west allied forces would just abandon the war, now that they were sure to win it, leaving their Russian allies alone and go home?

It would have been the Western Allies who would have reached Berlin and Prague - maybe even Warsaw first, thus putting them in a much better position of at Potsdam. Well the west allied pushed through Germany and reached even parts which later became east Germany. They pulled back and gave the Russians the teritory they had originaly conquered. Russia would have never settled without revenche and compensation from Germany and I highly doubt the west allied were looking for trouble with Russia.

[Carotio]

This is not a typical Tom Cruise attack, rather a typical attack on the American "let's remake a foreign film with American voices so we don't need to read subtitles".

Seriously, if you wanna see the story from a German perspective with original voices, then go watch the German film, which was made just a couple of years earlier (2004):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388437/

I highly doubt that I will be watching the Tom Cruise version before it's aired in television... :lol:

[Lurchi]

And how would that have changed after Hitlers death? The Russians would not just stop and go home, they wanted revenge for everything that happened the years before.
Go home? Where did i write that? I meant opening the west front as stopping any serious resistance and letting the allies occupy Germany while throwing all material to the East Front holding up the russians as long as possible. The outcome of the war could not be changed anymore but it was still possible for Germany to influence how far the russians could march into Central Europe by diverting the forces in France and Italy to the East ...
And the west allied forces would just abandon the war, now that they were sure to win it, leaving their Russian allies alone and go home?

Never wrote that too - opening the front means letting the Allies in ...
Well the west allied pushed through Germany and reached even parts which later became east Germany. They pulled back and gave the Russians the teritory they had originaly conquered. Russia would have never settled without revenche and compensation from Germany and I highly doubt the west allied were looking for trouble with Russia.
Churchill at least hadn't much sympathy for the russians anymore (if he really ever had). The parts of East Germany which became part of the russian zone were traded in for West Berlin. If the western allied would have originally captured Berlin this deal wouldn't be necessary, yes? Maybe the west would have traded East Berlin for parts of East Prussia or Poland then but this is something that couldn't be influenced anymore.

[Skybird]

This is not a typical Tom Cruise attack, rather a typical attack on the American "let's remake a foreign film with American voices so we don't need to read subtitles".

Seriously, if you wanna see the story from a German perspective with original voices, then go watch the German film, which was made just a couple of years earlier (2004):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388437/

I highly doubt that I will be watching the Tom Cruise version before it's aired in television... :lol:

GT forum, summer 2007, on german movies made about Stauffenberg:



2004: "Aufstand des Gewissens" (hailed as being the most precise movie about the man so far, with excellent actors, it won some film award)

1990 "Stauffenberg - Verschwörung gegen Hitler"

1955 "Der 20. Juli"

And many different docufilms.

And before you fall on your knees and pray for his soul for the rest of the night - did you know that the Graf wanted to make sure that the Third Reich and it'S governmental system prevails, and would negotiate a cease-firing with the Allies after Hitler's death - on same eye level, resulting in not capitulating, but in a draw? Just recent historical analysis and research in newly avaiolable sources, as was first documented in a German Tv docu some months ago, reveleaed that the nature of Stauffenberg and his motivation must be seen in a more differentiated, and less blindly heroic light. He was more loyal to the system than most easily assume at first glance.

That material had been given in an in-depth documentation that was broadcasted last year.

Carotio probably is right. Ignoring the latest historian's reassessements of the figure of stauffenberg, the German film from 2004 probably is the best you can see so far.

[Schroeder]

@Lurchi

Ah, o.k. I think I misunderstood you then.:D

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Many people must realize that the plot by Stauffenberg wasn't the only attempt on Hitlers life. There where a total of 15 attempts to kill him and all failed. I do know that both of the restiance movments (the White Rose, and the Military Restiance) had at one point joined each other but never worked together because they didn't understand each others plans. The main reason why Stauffenberg's plan failed was manily casued by where the bomb was suposed to be planted(inside the Wolves Lair) and where it was planted(the Conferance Hut). If the plan had gone right and the bomb was planted in the Wolves Lair as planned Hitler would have been dead or wounded enough so that another would have to take his place. I also must ask the question why didn't the German Restiance contact the the Allies and get help from them, as the British had a plot to kill Hitler as well. Or why didn't the civilian population and the military rise up to overthrow Hitler?

[OneToughHerring]

Firstly, I just don't like the idea of Tom Cruise getting his Xenu-tentacles into such as an interesting subject.

Secondly, I don't think much would have necessarily changed had Hitler been assassinated in -44, or even earlier. Not that they shouldn't have tried, they did manage to kill off Heydrich. Although that led to a resurgence of violence against all Czechs.

[U-84]

just saw it...amazing movie i thought...:up: very detailed...though yes, the fact it was primarily in english, did take away a little, but hey, most if not all in that movie are english/american actors, compared to das boot with pretty much a all german cast. I'm still a little bummed however that field marshall rommel wasn't in the movie, nor any mention of him in it...if memory serves me correct he did have a very small role or atleast was apart of a conspiracy to kill hitler. but overall a very good flick. heck it got my brother lookin through my WWII, and history books,

[Lurchi]

@Lurchi

Ah, o.k. I think I misunderstood you then.:D

No problem - it was all more or less unfounded speculation by me anyway ... ;)

[Stealth Hunter]

It's a shame more films aren't done about the numerous assassination plots against Hitler. I went to see Valkyrie yesterday, and I was highly impressed with its historical accuracy and recreation of Germany circa 1944.

[Subnuts]

The Third Reich's Funniest Assassination Plots:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/assassination-hitler-valkyrie.php

[Onkel Neal]

just saw it...amazing movie i thought...:up: very detailed...though yes, the fact it was primarily in english, did take away a little, but hey, most if not all in that movie are english/american actors, compared to das boot with pretty much a all german cast. I'm still a little bummed however that field marshall rommel wasn't in the movie, nor any mention of him in it...if memory serves me correct he did have a very small role or atleast was apart of a conspiracy to kill hitler. but overall a very good flick. heck it got my brother lookin through my WWII, and history books,

Saw it today. I agree, amazing film. :up: Even though I knew the outcome, it was tense. All the actors were first rate, and I tip my hat to Cruise. He played Stauffenberg with a lot of quiet dignity and force. And the scenes where the conspirators launched Operation Valkyrie, thinking Hilter was dead, are really terrific. Two groups fighting for power, what they must do to secure the backing of the army (men with rifles) and what the army men have to face, which group to back--do you support those you believe are in the right, or those you believe will ulitmately triumph....

Certainly a movie to see.

[kiwi_2005]

Yeah i watched it last night but mine was a downloaded version quality was a bit crappy in places yet i will go out and buy the dvd when it comes out later in the new year now that i know its worth paying for :) The documentary i saw few years back had a slightly different outcome at the end. He was hung up with piano wire. In this one he was shot.

[Schroeder]

I think he got shot in real life.

[sharkbit]

From the little that I know, I believe you are correct Shroeder-Stauffenberg was shot in real life. He and a few othe co-conspirators were taken out and quickly shot soon after being captured.

Later, some of the other conspirators were hung with piano wire and filmed. The film was later shown to Hitler.

[kranz]

From the little that I know, I believe you are correct Shroeder-Stauffenberg was shot in real life. He and a few othe co-conspirators were taken out and quickly shot soon after being captured.

Later, some of the other conspirators were hung with piano wire and filmed. The film was later shown to Hitler.

gen.Fromm ordered to shoot them when he realised that the plot was unsuccessful. He thought he would stay uncovered.How wrong he was... The rest was hanged as said above after a "trial" where von Witzleben had to hold his trousers in hands coz refused of a belt or those...you know what....And this famous quot. from Freisler: Herr Witzleben, what are you doing with your pants, ffs?

[Aramike]

Just went and saw the film. To be honest, I was quite impressed. The sets were fantastic, and I was even impressed by Cruise's performance. The film did a great job of conveying the tension of the time. And, despite the fact that I knew the outcome, it kept me feeling as though I didn't.

As for the gripe about it being in English, I've been of the view that I'd always rather watch a film in my native language instead of reading subtitles/hearing a dub. The intricacy of events seems lost when mere language becomes a detail of focus, IMO.

[Bewolf]

I think it would really made a big difference:

1. The human one: During the last 1 1/2 years of the war there were as many deads as during all the war years before - together. The last part saw an increase in brutality in every respect.
And how would that have changed after Hitlers death? The Russians would not just stop and go home, they wanted revenge for everything that happened the years before.
You forget the concentration camps, which would have been closed down under the new regime. You also forget the fanatic resistance put up in all of Europe, the mass executions under the NS governmet commited within the army and the ppl and last but not least thousands of Hitler youth and Volkssturm that perished for nothing. All these losses could have been cut down dramatically had the resistance been successfull, not to speak of the symbolism behind a german resistance movement overthrowing the NS regime. All together that would have made a "huge" difference compared to the utter human and moral defeat by the Nazis and probably would have saved millions.


2. The strategic one: After Hitler death an opening of the western Front could have been an option offering the opportunity to thrown everything against the Russians to keep them out of middle Europe. And the west allied forces would just abandon the war, now that they were sure to win it, leaving their Russian allies alone and go home?

It would have been the Western Allies who would have reached Berlin and Prague - maybe even Warsaw first, thus putting them in a much better position of at Potsdam. Well the west allied pushed through Germany and reached even parts which later became east Germany. They pulled back and gave the Russians the teritory they had originaly conquered. Russia would have never settled without revenche and compensation from Germany and I highly doubt the west allied were looking for trouble with Russia.

Lurchi was not talking about the hard facts of the outcome, but about a tactical and strategic strenghening of the western allies. Would it have been the west capturing Berlin the cards in Europe and the upcoming cold war would have been dramatically shifted in favor of the allies within Europe. The west allies pulled back out of the already occupied areas mostly because they expected a part of Berlin in exchange, which they got. The russians not capturing Berlin would have been a catastrophic propagandistic loss for the USSR and weakend their position in post war negotiations.

[kranz]

You forget the concentration camps, which would have been closed down under the new regime. You also forget the fanatic resistance put up in all of Europe, the mass executions under the NS governmet commited within the army and the ppl and last but not least thousands of Hitler youth and Volkssturm that perished for nothing. All these losses could have been cut down dramatically had the resistance been successfull, not to speak of the symbolism behind a german resistance movement overthrowing the NS regime. All together that would have made a "huge" difference compared to the utter human and moral defeat by the Nazis and probably would have saved millions.


I think you overestimate Hitler's power to control the "whole system"-I mean KZ etc. Don't forget what Himmler did-prisoners for him were only a commodity that could be traded for sth...e.g. trucks. I doubt the KZ would have been closed. It was not only Hitler's will to treat particular kind of people(without and negative aspect here)in the ways we know. Many people(read-officials)benefited from that state. Blaming only Hitler is kinda specific for some nation but I guess it is better to stop here.


Lurchi was not talking about the hard facts of the outcome, but about a tactical and strategic strenghening of the western allies. Would it have been the west capturing Berlin the cards in Europe and the upcoming cold war would have been dramatically shifted in favor of the allies within Europe. The west allies pulled back out of the already occupied areas mostly because they expected a part of Berlin in exchange, which they got. The russians not capturing Berlin would have been a catastrophic propagandistic loss for the USSR and weakend their position in post war negotiations.

actually I guess there was a race for Berlin-at least after reading J.Toland's book I got this impression. Especially Patton wanted to get the city.

[Jimbuna]

I think he got shot in real life.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/stauffenberg.html


At 12:30 a.m. on 21 July von Stauffenberg is executed by firing squad in the courtyard of the war ministry following a drumhead court martial. Other conspirators will suffer far more gristly fates, with some being hung with piano wire from meat hooks.



Not a bad film IMHO.....a lot better than I initially feared.

[kranz]

with some being hung with piano wire from meat hooks.



Not a bad film IMHO.....a lot better than I initially feared.

they have read too much about Canaris.

[Jimbuna]

with some being hung with piano wire from meat hooks.



Not a bad film IMHO.....a lot better than I initially feared.

they have read too much about Canaris.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/canaris.html


In the closing days of World War II (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/wwtoc.html), in the gray morning hours of April 9, 1945, gallows were erected hastily in the courtyard. Wilhelm Canaris, Dietrich Bonhoeffer (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html), Major General Hans Oster (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/oster.html), Judge Advocate General Carl Sack, Captain Ludwig Gehre - all were ordered to remove their clothing and were led down the steps under the trees to the secluded place of execution before hooting SS (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sstoc.html) guards. Naked under the scaffold, they knelt for the last time to pray - they were hanged, their corpses left to rot.

[kranz]

Jimbuna-is your post for or against what I've written?:hmm:
(I need to take some extra english lessons)

[Jimbuna]

Jimbuna-is your post for or against what I've written?:hmm:
(I need to take some extra english lessons)

Neither for or against kranz....somply posting information to assist people get a better understanding of what possibly happened in RL.

[kranz]

ok, now it makes sense.:up: I read about this meat hook and Canaris in Jurgen Stroop's book. This guy was responsible for pacifcation of Jewish ghetto in Warsaw April-May 1943. You may have heard about him.Nvm.So the story goes like this: when they finally beat Canaris and he was full of bandages, before hanging him one of the SS guys said- "take of those bandages, coz he must hang on his flesh not on them". Dunno how much truth is in this story but it's kinda cruel.:nope: