TDC input errors causing missed shots?

[I'm goin' down]

Here is my dilemma. I have been developing this array of attack scenarios, including Dick O'Kane method, manual targeting, manual targeting with sonar only, and the Cromwell attack technique.

I returned to basics today and set up for manual targeting on a small passenger liner approaching from my starboard at 8.5 kts. I turned on the PK. I set the AoB on the stadimeter at 10 degrees starboard since the target was at a bearing of 80 degrees (roughly 4,000 yds.) starboard by turning the AoB dial on the stadimeter ten degrees to the target's starboard side. I set the range using SCAF mod after identifying the target as a small passenger liner. I had the sonarman reporting the target's bearing. The target's course was tracking it into postion to absorb a torpedo broadside in its starboard side at a range of around 1,000 yds. Although the range was not precise at a bearing of 80 degrees, it was close per the Attack Map display. The target's course appeared accurate per the Attack Map.

As the target closed, the TDC did its thing and AoB on the dial on the left side of the screen began to adjust position accordingly. As the target got closer, I rechecked the range on the stadimeter, and the white "x" and course line on the Attack Map appeared accurate. I submerged and fired when the target passed the bearing at 10 degrees, per the sonarman.

The first time I missed one shot because the torpedo depth was too deep and the other three shots passed the stern of the target, so their depth proved irrelevant. I saved the game, so I replayed the attack scenario 3 more times, and the second and third time all shots (eight shots total) missed, although not by much. The second time the shots were wide of the target's bow,and the third time they were wide of the stern. The fourth time one torpedo made impact and three missed the bow. Assuming the speed was recorded on the stadimeter accurately, AoB was easily set once I had the target's bearing. I do not understand why I am missing. Once the range and AoB are input the TDC should calculate the firing solution, assuming the target's speed is input into the stadimeter accurately. I only had one choice for torpedo speed on the boat I was operating. I am not sure if I put the crew at battle stations. Could that have been the problem?

I am unsure where I am making a mistake with the TDC. Any suggestions? My son, who is home for college, summarized the failures by saying my skills were pathetic, and I better go back to the Dick O'kane method or he would relieve me. I demoted him a rank for insubordination, confined him to base and docked him one week's pay (allowance). He guffawed and went AWOL, taking my car keys and car to see his girlfriend.

[Rockin Robbins]

Missing astern...... Could it be? You ARE opening torpedo tube doors before firing aren't you?

[Fish40]

First off, were your outer doors open? It may sound like a noobie question, but this little oversite could cause you to miss:yep: Another basic mistake is even though you may set the range, aob, and speed, sometimes you forget to send the info to the TDC. In the heat of the action, it could happen.

I'm a big fan of the Dick O'kane method. Once I tried it, I never looked back. To me, the most important piece of info is target speed. This will make or break your setup. I've tried to establish target speed by: Firstly, measuring the distance between two range readings at three minute intervals, Secondly, use the Sonar to ping two range readings at three minute intervals, and Thirdly, time the target as it crosses the 0 vertical bearing line of the periscope or TBT.

This last method I find the most accurate. Ship length is important here though, and given the fact that the ship ID manual lacks this info directly, could prove difficult. I've come across a thread in one of the forums ( can't remember off hand) where someone posted the lengths of all the merchants and warships. By the way, the info is on the ship ID poster that shipped with the game.

I hope I've given you some clue as to what you may be doing wrong. If I come across that ship length thread, I'll post it for you.

[Fish40]

Here's the list of Merchant Ship lengths: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/5051064855?r=9331035855#9331035855

And here's the Warship lengths: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/4551055555?r=4551055555#4551055555

[I'm goin' down]

Torpedo tubes were open, definitely.

Fish, the reason why I want to master manual targeting using the TDC is that the O'Kane method, good as it is, limits your boat to attacking at a 90 degree angle (i.e. the broadside shot.) The great advantage of the O'Kane method is in its simplicity. The great advantage of the manual targeting method using the TDC is that you can attack at any angle. This is made clear in Hitman's brilliant tutorial re manual targeting at 100% realism. I supplemented Hitman's tutorial, which involves calculating the aspect ratio and AoB through basic mathematical calculations to calculate range and AoB, with the SCAF mod, as the mod eliminates need for math computations (i.e. the mod performs the calculations described by Hitman if used correctly). I am unsure how the ship dimension fixes you provide can assist in manual TDC, especially since their is a ship dimension fix mod, but I will think about it some more.

[Soundman]

To me, the most important piece of info is target speed.



Man, do I agree with you there. Using the "O'Kane Method" if you have accurately estmated speed, and I mean down to the 1/4 knot, you will hit where you aim.

[Soundman]

The great advantage of the O'Kane method is in its simplicity. The great advantage of the manual targeting method using the TDC is that you can attack at any angle.

Both are great methods, however in bad weather, night time, or in general,, when visibilty is poor, they do not work as well as a PK setup with the proper input, followed by varification from sonar. After all, the best thing about those methods is the ability to target accurately to a specific area as the target crosses the lubber line.

As the target closed, the TDC did its thing and AoB on the dial on the left side of the screen began to adjust position accordingly. As the target got closer, I rechecked the range on the stadimeter, and the white "x" and course line on the Attack Map appeared accurate. I submerged and fired when the target passed the bearing at 10 degrees, per the sonarman.

Well, keep in mind that sonar is picking up the rear (propellor) end of the boat. Not taking that into account can cause a miss astern. You need to lead him a bit when using sonar. Also, the solution you first entered could have drifted off a bit. In poor visibility conditions, this is what I do... Use the radar to plot course and speed and set up perpendicular to the target just as you would with the "O'Kane" method. Once you are confident of your speed, plot a point (depending on the targets speed) of say, 1000 yds ahead of the target. Enter that data..i.e. angle on bow, speed and range on the plot you calculated ahead of the target. Watch the nav map and at the very moment the target reaches the point you have accurately calculated, switch on th PK. The key here is to monitor the progress using radar and sonar. As they get closer, I prefer to rely on the sonar, as the updates are more frequent. Here's a little trick....use your sonarman report (follow nearest contact) to keep you updated on the bearing. Hold your mouse over the little plexiglass looking little triangle at the top of the dial on the PK showing your boats postion (the bottom dial). There will be a pop-up window showing bearing to target. This should match what your sonarman is calling out if your solution is correct. Monitor the info between the reading and what your sonarman is telling you and adjust as needed. It does take a little practice. You may need to tweek things as you go. Tweeking at the last minute is sometimes tough because by the time you get the info and then enter it, it may no longer be valid.That's why I like to get it as right as I can from the beginning. But, if the target is ahead a little, add a touch more speed and contrarily, if the target is behind........If by firing time, you are off by only a degree you have two choices. You can update the bearing just prior to firing or use the torpedo offset. I prefer the latter and that's what it's there for, not just for spread shots. As far as range goes, I hope you have modded your ini file to allow you to manually input range without the need to use the stadmeter. I just recently did that and what an invaluble ability that is. For a sonar attack, it's practically a must! The inability to manually input range was always my biggest pet peave with this game, until now of couse. (Thanks Munchausen!) I wish I could post some screen shots to help me explain what I'm trying to explain here. I really need to learn that next. :know: Anyhow, hope I helped a little.

[I'm goin' down]

Soundman, good advice re the speed. I had originally set it at 9 kts using the 3 minute rule. On another attack I remeasured the distance and changed it to 8.5 kts. After reading your post and laughing it off, I reran the scenario once again. This time I measured the distance on the TBT over a 3 minute time frame. 819 kts.!! I reset the speed, submerged and fired when the target passed a bearing of 9 degrees. 3 impacts!!! (three exclamation points - one per impact!). I did not even bother to raise the scope and peek one last time before firing, but I tracked the torpedoes via the camera. What about the fourth torpedo? Where in the hell did it go? I was so excited when I fired torpedoes, I fired nos 1, 2 and 4. MY GOD. I FORGOT NO. 3! Well, Uncle Sam is happy cause I saved him the cost of a torpedo.

Soundman, aka Problem Solver, is the MAN. Rockin Robbins, bless his soul, thinks I have a modicum of intelliegence, and simply assumed I could measure yardage over a three minute time period. Not the Soundman. He recognizes idiotcrity when he sees it. I owe you one, Soundman! Thanks a lot! Time for a Rockin Robbins celebratory martini. I have been saving it for a kill, and I have been dying of thirst for the last several missions.

[cleverusername]

You can also track the torpedoes using hydrophones, especially useful when using electric torpedoes. Just listen for the high pitched whine of the torpedoes. Listen as they begin to overlap with the chugging sound of the merchant. Then listen to the explosions when the two meet.

[Urge]

Soundman wrote...
and I mean down to the 1/4 knot, you will hit where you aim.

I don't understand how you solve speed for less than one knot? Can you explain?

Urge

[Soundman]

I don't understand how you solve speed for less than one knot? Can you explain?



If you use the Nomogragh you can often see "in between" speeds, but it's mighty iffy. For fine tuning I like to use a calculator or if you do math in your head well, then good for you. First of all, a three minute estimation is hard to fine tune, you simply need more time to calculate accurately. The longer time you have to measure, the more accurate estimation you wil get. Provided, the target is at a constant speed. I do check the speed at three knots just to know a close approximation and start setting my intersecting course. To fine tune, you may need 12 minutes, more is better. Anyway, as an example...a boat travels 4500 yds in twelve minutes..60 (minutes) divided by 12 = 5...4500 divided by 2000 = 2.25 (remember one nauticle mile=2000 yds)....so you have 2.25 X 5 = 11.25 knots.

Now let me say this, and maybe someone who has modded a campaign can chime in here...I asked this question a long time ago and really never got a definitive answer, but the question was "what kind of speed divison does the game campaign have in speed of targets". In other words, 1/10 a knot, 1/4 knot? Now, I have played a bit with the "Mission Editor" enough to know that you can enter fractions of speed on a platform (boats). Again, what I've never got a direct answer to is, "to what degree are variations of speed within the game's campaign vary". All I can say is, from my experience, after a very carefull and painstaking measurment of distance and speed on differing targets, they do not always come out in even numbers of knots. Quite often they do, but it does make me wonder, and without disecting the campaign, I can't say for fact that is the case. I can say, that after failing to sink a boat and then reloading a save to find out why I missed, I often tend to find the speed was miscalculated. We may need someone like "Lurker" (RSRDC creator) who has delved into the depths of the campaign engine to definitively answer this question. Wow...wore myself out on that one ..yada yada, bla, bla bla..:rotfl:

[Soundman]

Soundman, good advice re the speed. I had originally set it at 9 kts using the 3 minute rule. On another attack I remeasured the distance and changed it to 8.5 kts. After reading your post and laughing it off, I reran the scenario once again. This time I measured the distance on the TBT over a 3 minute time frame. 819 kts.!! I reset the speed, submerged and fired when the target passed a bearing of 9 degrees. 3 impacts!!! (three exclamation points - one per impact!). I did not even bother to raise the scope and peek one last time before firing, but I tracked the torpedoes via the camera. What about the fourth torpedo? Where in the hell did it go? I was so excited when I fired torpedoes, I fired nos 1, 2 and 4. MY GOD. I FORGOT NO. 3! Well, Uncle Sam is happy cause I saved him the cost of a torpedo.

Soundman, aka Problem Solver, is the MAN. Rockin Robbins, bless his soul, thinks I have a modicum of intelliegence, and simply assumed I could measure yardage over a three minute time period. Not the Soundman. He recognizes idiotcrity when he sees it. I owe you one, Soundman! Thanks a lot! Time for a Rockin Robbins celebratory martini. I have been saving it for a kill, and I have been dying of thirst for the last several missions.

Many thanks for your kind words here, but the jury may still be out on whether my therories here are correct. I'm only speaking from my experience, not facts. Let me say R.R. pretty well knows his S$&t, I highly respect him and by way of his tutorial, is how I learned the "O'Kane" method to begin with.

IMHO, a three minute estimation is just that, an estimation. Most of the time it's gonna work for you, but with precision, long range shooting, speed is the key factor with the "O'Kane" method. The other two factors are already known, so things (the perfect solution) are narrowed down substancially. It is by far my favorite way of targeting, but again, the speed needs (and can be) narrowed down to the 1/4 maybe even 1/10 knt. A half knot on a 3000 yard shot is the difference between a miss and a kill. 1/10 a knt off and you may not hit exactly where you are aiming. Again, I'm talking precision here.

[Urge]

Soundman wrote...
The inability to manually input speed was always my biggest pet peave with this game, until now of couse. (Thanks Munchausen!)

Did you mean range?

Soundman wrote...
but again, the speed needs (and can be) narrowed down to the 1/4 maybe even 1/10 knt. A half knot on a 3000 yard shot is the difference between a miss and a kill. 1/10 a knt off and you may not hit exactly where you are aiming. Again, I'm talking precision here.

You can solve it to 100th of a knot but the TDC only accepts whole knots so the only speed refining that I can see anyone doing is rounding up or down to the nearest knot. Am I missing something?

Soundman wrote...
Well, keep in mind that sonar is picking up the rear (propellor) end of the boat. Not taking that into account can cause a miss astern. You need to lead him a bit when using sonar.

Does the game account for this? I thought I read somewhere that sound is hardwired into the game at the center of the ship.

Urge

[magic452]

The TDC will only show whole knots but it will read at least 1/2 knots I have checked this. Haven't checked 1/4 knots but it my be possible and probably is as soundman says. I use Mk. 14 torps and always shoot at less than 1000 yards so 1/2 knot is good enough for me. With MK. 14 the target too ofter sees the wake and turns if the range is much over 1200. To me the real skill of the game is to get in close, that means
beating the DDs. I have also become quit good at getting 2 simultanious hits and the effect is very dramatic. :rock: love it.



Magic452

[Soundman]

Did you mean range?



Yes, range, Sorry bout that. I did catch it after posting and edited the post.



You can solve it to 100th of a knot but the TDC only accepts whole knots so the only speed refining that I can see anyone doing is rounding up or down to the nearest knot. Am I missing something?



I disagree. I don't know how fine it can be broken down, but I can assure that after experimentation, small adjustments on the TDC do make a difference. While the PK may show even numbers of knots, there are definitely fractions accepted on the input.


Does the game account for this? I thought I read somewhere that sound is hardwired into the game at the center of the ship.




I'm not positive of this, but I have read the opposite. Again, not everthing I'm stating here is fact (most is hard to prove) just observations from my experience.

[Rockin Robbins]

Does the game account for this? I thought I read somewhere that sound is hardwired into the game at the center of the ship.



I'm not positive of this, but I have read the opposite. Again, not everthing I'm stating here is fact (most is hard to prove) just observations from my experience.

Yes, the TDC automatically used an input we don't have for target length to target all bearings to MOT (middle of target). So the game does this as well without our having to input target length.

[tater]

The speed f a group is entirely up to the guy who made the campaign. Stock is all whole knots, usually slow, too.

My campaign I did almost never used whole knots. I made a point of mixing them up by 10ths of a knot to screw people up. Presumably lurker has done the same (I have no checked since I've been playing RSRDC, and I don't want to know :) )

Sadly the game does not support realistic zig-zagging.

tater

[Soundman]

The speed f a group is entirely up to the guy who made the campaign. Stock is all whole knots, usually slow, too.

My campaign I did almost never used whole knots. I made a point of mixing them up by 10ths of a knot to screw people up. Presumably lurker has done the same (I have no checked since I've been playing RSRDC, and I don't want to know :) )

Sadly the game does not support realistic zig-zagging.

tater

Thanks for the answers above guys. I've never played the "stock game" always TMO and mostly with RSRDC and they definitely appear to have fractions of knots.

I just thought of a way to prove the capability to enter fractions of speed into the TDC. I'm going to try this later, maybe Urge would like to try too. This should tell us how much variance is possible with speed input on the TDC.....As an example,

1) Have your boat stopped, absolutely still
2) Set up as you would for a "Dick 0'Kane" shot, 0 degrees in front of you. the boat passing from left to right. PK off.(We don't need an actual target for this)
3) Let set it up for say, 10 knots
4) Fire a fish and check the bearing it is running on (should be 0 degrees)
5) Now, move the speed up a pinch to say, 10.2 knots
6) Fire another fish
7) I'm willing to bet the fish will fire on a bearing slighltly right of the first one.
8) If so, this proves a very small increase in speed on the TDC will measure fractions of knots.

[Soundman]

I just got home and tried the experiment stated above. Sure enough, even with a minor speed adjustment, you will see a slight spread of fish when firing as rapidly as possible. Therefore, the TDC will accept and accurately calculate slight adjustments of knots entered.