Are they trying to make Iraq look like a Crusade? Christmas in Iraq.

[subchaser12]

Wow, if this picture of Jesus hanging off the palm trees and santa doesn't enrage the muslim world I'm not sure what will.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/21/iraq.christmas/index.html

[baggygreen]

an image of Mohammed standing beneath it??;) .

More seriously though, aren't a large number of Iraqis christians anyway? Not in terms of population, I know they're a minority, but in numerical terms I thought there were several million, all of whom were permitted to celebrate xmas before?

Also, does Xmas appear on the islamic calendar as a holiday? I know they revere jesus as a prophet, but do they celebrate his 'birth' as they do for many other prophets? Or, for that matter, easter, to they pause to remember their prophet's death?

[Skybird]

wjhat was it about multi-culturalism, tolerance and equal rights for memebers of other cultures? Always demanded from the West, always ruled out in Islamic countries?

Christians had been forced out of the country by the many tens of thousands, and even more have become victim to massive violance and supression in the past years. Germany planned to accept several thousand Christian refugees to save them from Muslim prosecution and serious violant threats to life. The political left and the "humanists" and well-meaning politically over-correct preachers of one-sided multi-culturalism immediately protested and said that were a discrimination of Muhammedanism (that is commiting these crimes). The last thing I heared was that Germany would accept a counter-balanced share of non-Christian Iraqi Muslims for each Iraqi Christian it takes. :nope:

Christianity is under constant supression and constant reduction (of community sizes) in almost all Muslims countries, since always. That the discrimination of Jews and Christians by Quranic rule is mandatory maybe has something to do with it!?

American troops for the most are christians, formally or real, and they are there in nthat place, like it or not. As long as they do not impose their cultural standards onto the locals, I honestly give sh!t for whether or not Iraqis like them to have a christmas mass or display a santa claus in their camp. If they find it offending then take it as a simple lesson about what Islam thinks about that multiculturalism that is so precious to us and that is always constantly demanded from us, one-sided, without a reciprocal response from Islamic nations.

[Aramike]

Good post Skybird. I agree 100%.

[Rockstar]

Yes must be careful not to share a meal a toy, or fellowship. Otherwise they might take people out back to the old stadium and put a bullet through their skull for doing such evil things. Oh wait thats for reserved for women who want an education. All others loose your head by the sword. Yes we mustn't ENRAGE them now.

[1480]

Many of the people attending the Christmas celebration appear to be Muslims, with women wearing head scarves. Suad Mahmoud, holding her 16-month-old daughter, Sara, tells me she is indeed Muslim, but she's very happy to be here. "My mother's birthday also is this month, so we celebrate all occasions," she says, "especially in this lovely month of Christmas and New Year."


Why don't you read the article that is attached to the photo..... I'm shocked CNN found a Muslim who was not offended by the display, that's amazing.

[nikimcbee]

Priceless.:rotfl:

[Skybird]

Why don't you read the article that is attached to the photo..... I'm shocked CNN found a Muslim who was not offended by the display, that's amazing.

I was not so much answering to the article itself but subchaser's comment regarding it all looking like a crusade.

[subchaser12]

Why don't you read the article that is attached to the photo..... I'm shocked CNN found a Muslim who was not offended by the display, that's amazing.

I was not so much answering to the article itself but subchaser's comment regarding it all looking like a crusade.

I know Iraq isn't a crusade, but pieces like this just do the terrorist recruiters job for them. :cry:

[Aramike]

Why don't you read the article that is attached to the photo..... I'm shocked CNN found a Muslim who was not offended by the display, that's amazing.

I was not so much answering to the article itself but subchaser's comment regarding it all looking like a crusade.

I know Iraq isn't a crusade, but pieces like this just do the terrorist recruiters job for them. :cry:So we're all supposed to just bury our heads in the sand and not do what we feel is right because it might piss of some Muslim extremists?

Giving terrorists what they want won't stop terrorism. It only proves that it works.

...and the fact that Christianity offends them so much is the freakin' REASON there is so much hate in the Muslim world. Maybe if they would learn a little tolerence, we wouldn't have young people blowing themselves up.

[subchaser12]

So we're all supposed to just bury our heads in the sand and not do what we feel is right because it might piss of some Muslim extremists?

Giving terrorists what they want won't stop terrorism. It only proves that it works.

...and the fact that Christianity offends them so much is the freakin' REASON there is so much hate in the Muslim world. Maybe if they would learn a little tolerence, we wouldn't have young people blowing themselves up.

It's this line of arrogant and uninformed thinking that has led to the Iraq disaster. Because of this childish view of the middle east, Iraq and the surrounding area will stay plunged in chaos many generations from now. We are months away from the 6 year aniversary of the start of the Vietraq war and it's still as if no one in the west has so much has read the first pamphlet on the middle east. Someone needs to write "The middle east for dummies".

Tolerance? What are the muslim kids supposed to do? Go to the mall? Get a job at wal-mart? Go to the movies? None of those things exist over there. We continue to fund countries like Saudia Arabia that spend 99.99% of their wealth on their own luxury while the population lives in squalor their whole lives. The poor people get violent, not unlike blacks in America back in the 1960's. Then someone spoiled like you from America arrogantly and ignorantly proclaims "hey can't you all just get along?"

[Aramike]

So we're all supposed to just bury our heads in the sand and not do what we feel is right because it might piss of some Muslim extremists?

Giving terrorists what they want won't stop terrorism. It only proves that it works.

...and the fact that Christianity offends them so much is the freakin' REASON there is so much hate in the Muslim world. Maybe if they would learn a little tolerence, we wouldn't have young people blowing themselves up.

It's this line of arrogant and uninformed thinking that has led to the Iraq disaster. Because of this childish view of the middle east, Iraq and the surrounding area will stay plunged in chaos many generations from now. We are months away from the start of the Vietraq war and it's still as if no one in the west has so much has read the first pamphlet on the middle east. Someone needs to write "The middle east for dummies".Actually, I believe that the Purple Unicorn is going to swoop in and save us all. It will happen slowly. First, dogs, cats, and mice will unite to create a new United Nations. Then, a descendant of Lassie will take over as President of the World and institute a new order of peace and love and Big Band music. Finally, the Internet will be expanded to include websites from alien civilizations and we will all finally see how those little grey fellars built the pyramids.

I guess that has about as much basis in reality is one of your typical arguments, subchaser12. :rotfl: You always have these big, bold claims but never really show how they are true... probably because the only person who thinks you know what you're talking about is yourself.

How, again, is wanting tolerance to go both ways arrogant?

[subchaser12]

I guess that has about as much basis in reality is one of your typical arguments, subchaser12. :rotfl: You always have these big, bold claims but never really show how they are true... probably because the only person who thinks you know what you're talking about is yourself.

How, again, is wanting tolerance to go both ways arrogant?

Aramike ever been in the military? I don't want to accuse you of being a chickenhawk before I ask you that.

[Aramike]

I guess that has about as much basis in reality is one of your typical arguments, subchaser12. :rotfl: You always have these big, bold claims but never really show how they are true... probably because the only person who thinks you know what you're talking about is yourself.

How, again, is wanting tolerance to go both ways arrogant?

Aramike ever been in the military? I don't want to accuse you of being a chickenhawk before I ask you that.19 years in, buddy. Worked in Intelligence for a good portion of my career, too. Specialized in Intentions towards the end of my career although worked on threat assessments and such earlier on.

[subchaser12]

19 years in, buddy. Worked in Intelligence, too. Specialized in Intentions towards the end of my career.

Why am I not surprised. Is it any wonder our military a bunch of screwups. You were one of the smart ones. haha.

I remember 15 years ago like it was yesterday. This kid with missing teeth and long hair at the airport. I asked "so what MOS you get?" He said intelligence. I got the sick sinking feeling in my stomach and I knew before the plance even took off the military was going to be a ****storm.

[Aramike]

19 years in, buddy. Worked in Intelligence, too. Specialized in Intentions towards the end of my career.

Why am I not surprised. Is it any wonder our military a bunch of screwups. You were one of the smart ones. haha.

I remember 15 years ago like it was yesterday. This kid with missing teeth and long hair at the airport. I asked "so what MOS you get?" He said intelligence. I got the sick sinking feeling in my stomach and I knew before the plance even took off the military was going to be a ****storm.Our military is a bunch of screwups?

Wow, you really are an idiot.

See, in intel, you have to back up your suppositions with facts. You're probably glad the same doesn't apply to you on a message board.

Thanks for showing what you really think about your country and its fighting men and women. Personally, part of me hopes that one day you'll need help from one of those screwups who finished their service and reentered civilian life. And, I hope they know what you think of them, and leave you hanging high and dry.

People like you don't deserve the freedoms our brave men and women fight for.

[subchaser12]

Our military is a bunch of screwups?

Wow, you really are an idiot.

See, in intel, you have to back up your suppositions with facts. You're probably glad the same doesn't apply to you on a message board.

Thanks for showing what you really think about your country and its fighting men and women. Personally, part of me hopes that one day you'll need help from one of those screwups who finished their service and reentered civilian life. And, I hope they know what you think of them, and leave you hanging high and dry.

People like you don't deserve the freedoms our brave men and women fight for.

Dude, I was in the army. I know first hand what a bunch of dumbasses they are. Brave fighting men and women? How many commies did you shoot for me there Chairborne?

I said nothing bad about the country. Stop putting words in my mouth. The country is great, the military is just the countries refuse. Get over yourself man, the country is a lot more than just it's military. The military is just one over rated segment.

19 years? Wow, you wasted the best years of your life! Well you probably didn't, I doubt you left a truckload of broken hearted honeys back on the farm. Right wing males don't get much bedroom action. haha

[Aramike]

the military is just the countries refuse.I was going to be mad at this, then I remembered the source.

Frankly, you don't deserve to be an American.

[Stealth Hunter]

Wow, if this picture of Jesus hanging off the palm trees and santa doesn't enrage the muslim world I'm not sure what will.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/21/iraq.christmas/index.html\

You do know that Islam acknowledges Jesus, right? Not as the son of god, but still as a powerful and wise man.

[Skybird]

Keep nation, people, politicians and military separate.

Iraq was screwed up by political ideologists, not by the military - the Pentagon was very hesitent to go there, and did not like the initial idea. Of course, it obeyed to the orders to go there, and how.

A nation's and people's value is not represented by its military only. Soldiers are not the better citizens, nor are they the elite of a people. They are one part of it - and not even a representative part of it, seen from a sociological point of view. The rich and educated elites, and those rejecting military service, are underrepresented in it, so are various ethnic and/or religious groups and eventually females. That a nation's military is a mirror of it's social community, is a popular myth.

Politicians are a kind of their own, they only partially represent nation's values, or their people, and they tend to abuse the military. The people certainly often is stupid enough to vote for this or that given idiot, that is part of their share of responsibility for the state of their society. But certainly it is better that stupid politicians tell the military what to do, than the military telling the politicians.

The industrial-military complex, as Eisenhower put it, now is an abstract entity of it'S own, and is more defined by a network of mutual relations and allying of interests from various sides, than by solid existence.

It all ain't no perfect. Maybe one could imagine better ways of doing - but whether mankind is capable and willing to implement these better visions, must be put in doubt. And whether the current ways of doing are sufficient, must be put in doubt as well, if considering the fact that we are destroying our own basis of suvival for short-termed lobby interests, and doing so with remarkable enthusiasm and self-deception.

[subchaser12]

the military is just the countries refuse.I was going to be mad at this, then I remembered the source.

Frankly, you don't deserve to be an American.

You are mad at this. It isn't a requirement to rub one out over war movies and offer nothing but gushing praise over men in uniforms to be an American.

I did offer gushing praise over the military until I went and saw firsthand what it was like. Sorry to break it to people but it's the scum of the country going in. From MEPs to basic training I was surrounded by gang bangers, thugs, white trash, hicks, morons, you name it. The only college poeple were ones who went broke and got kicked out of home by the family.

I even helped recruiters for awhile. I had that all American 6 foot tall white guy thing going. I asked the recruiters if we were going to go near a college to recruit smarter people. They laughed at me and said "hell no, we are going to the hood and the trailer parks". That we did.

It's the same in any army the world over. You think the nations best and brightest are maning the machine guns and going out on patrol? Nope, they are the people who got fired from McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

[Aramike]

Skybird, I agree with a lot of what you said. I could be wrong, but it seems that you share my quest to look at things as how they really are, versus through a red or blue lense.

That being said, I do find it infuriating when one denigrates our military. The so-called "refuse" of our nation effectively operates some of the most high-tech equipment known to man. The efficiency of the US military is unrivaled in history. That being said, this so-called "refuse" still puts their lives on the line for their nation on a daily basis.

I'd like to see subchaser12 live in a USA without its military. I'd like to see the nature of his dissent after he posts it using his freedoms picked from his Freedom Tree.

[Aramike]

You are mad at this. It isn't a requirement to rub one out over war movies and offer nothing but gushing praise over men in uniforms to be an American. No, but to be American is to use the freedoms granted and maintained by our fighting men and women.

Appreciating that isn't "rubbing one out" - it's understanding history and world affairs.I did offer gushing praise over the military until I went and saw firsthand what it was like. Sorry to break it to people but it's the scum of the country going in. From MEPs to basic training I was surrounded by gang bangers, thugs, white trash, hicks, morons, you name it. The only college poeple were ones who went broke and got kicked out of home by the family. For some reason, I doubt this.

The Basic Training program your parole officer assigned to you doesn't count as military, by the way.It's the same in any army the world over. You think the nations best and brightest are maning the machine guns and going out on patrol? Nope, they are the people who got fired from McDonald's or Wal-Mart.Silly me. I forgot that there was nothing more technical to the military than manning machine guns. Which makes me again wonder if you were really ever in the military, and if so, what the nature of your discharge was....

[subchaser12]

That being said, I do find it infuriating when one denigrates our military. The so-called "refuse" of our nation effectively operates some of the most high-tech equipment known to man. The efficiency of the US military is unrivaled in history. That being said, this so-called "refuse" still puts their lives on the line for their nation on a daily basis.



You just said earlier "I was going to be mad at this but I won't". Now you find it infuriating. You are a liar too. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

I agree, we do have the most high tech military equipment on the plant. What is your point? We pick fights with countries like Vietnam and Iraq and we have to go toe to toe with ****ty M-16s. Our troops are loaded with so much body armor and gear they can't run any distance. No wonder the Hajis can run away at will. Despite our lazer guided this, and nuclear that most of the fighting is still done with small arms you could find at a gun show in America. We are geared for a conventional war. How useful are our amazing nuclear subs in Iraq? How really wonderfully useful were our 3,000+ nuclear warheads in Vietnam?

Ok the nightvision is good and the airstrikes are good. So is the artillery, but except for the nightvision, wars haven't changed much since World War 2.

Besides if our military is as hot as you say how do you explain Blackwater USA and all the contractors? Why isn't the good ol American soldier good enough to protect the important people? They know as well as I do the military is a bunch of boneheads. Yes blackwater is mostly ex-military minus one important aspect, the military.

Ol Paul Bremer didn't want Timy whitetrash from Nowhere TN covering his asss in the warzone did he? He knows better.

[Aramike]

You just said earlier "I was going to be mad at this but I won't". Now you find it infuriating. You are a liar too. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.I was going to be mad at a particular post, but decided against it.

I DO find it infuriating when someone denigrades our military which is a POSITION (which doesn't neccessarily apply to you).

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

But, hey ... everyone is a liar to you. It's easier to think that then to have to wrap your noodle around something complex, I suppose.

[subchaser12]

Silly me. I forgot that there was nothing more technical to the military than manning machine guns. Which makes me again wonder if you were really ever in the military, and if so, what the nature of your discharge was....

Bad Conduct Discharge. There ain't no shame in my game. Apparently they don't like it when you bang officers wives and knock NCO's teeth out. :rock:

That BCD really did pay for itself when they started calling up IRR (ready reservse) people when Vietraq started. Guess who didn't get a call, RE-4 re-enlistment code baby! I get to keep my legs, arms, face and sanity. Plus no Depleted Uranium air for Subchaser12.

[Aramike]

Silly me. I forgot that there was nothing more technical to the military than manning machine guns. Which makes me again wonder if you were really ever in the military, and if so, what the nature of your discharge was....

Bad Conduct Discharge. There ain't no shame in my game. Apparently they don't like it when you bang officers wives and knock NCO's teeth out. :rock:I doubt it...

...but if so, you sound more like the "hicks, thugs" etc. than the people you say make up the military. Idiot.

[subchaser12]

I doubt it...

...but if so, you sound more like the "hicks, thugs" etc. than the people you say make up the military. Idiot.

You deny it. You know as well as I do adultry is still illegal in the military. People still get jailed and booted over it.

Oh yes, I became a total thug when I was in. You can't hang out with those people for long without becoming one.

You know what they say, dance with the devil and the devil don't chamge, the devil changes you.

[Aramike]

I doubt it...

...but if so, you sound more like the "hicks, thugs" etc. than the people you say make up the military. Idiot.

You deny it. You know as well as I do adultry is still illegal in the military. People still get jailed and booted over it.

Oh yes, I became a total thug when I was in. You can't hang out with those people for long without becoming one.

You know what they say, dance with the devil and the devil don't chamge, the devil changes you.Sure, buddy ... everyone believes you... :rotfl:

[subchaser12]

I doubt it...

...but if so, you sound more like the "hicks, thugs" etc. than the people you say make up the military. Idiot.

You deny it. You know as well as I do adultry is still illegal in the military. People still get jailed and booted over it.

Oh yes, I became a total thug when I was in. You can't hang out with those people for long without becoming one.

You know what they say, dance with the devil and the devil don't chamge, the devil changes you.Sure, buddy ... everyone believes you... :rotfl:

Heartwarming you can't imagine me being anything other than "Soldier of the Year" with an Honorable Discharge. I'm touched.

[Aramike]

I doubt it...

...but if so, you sound more like the "hicks, thugs" etc. than the people you say make up the military. Idiot.

You deny it. You know as well as I do adultry is still illegal in the military. People still get jailed and booted over it.

Oh yes, I became a total thug when I was in. You can't hang out with those people for long without becoming one.

You know what they say, dance with the devil and the devil don't chamge, the devil changes you.Sure, buddy ... everyone believes you... :rotfl:

Heartwarming you can't imagine me being anything other than "Soldier of the Year" with an Honorable Discharge. I'm touched.Actually, imagining you being a "soldier" is what I don't believe...

...that, and a certain detail you mentioned that makes it all seem a little, say, far-fetched.

I'll leave it at that. The reader can decide.

PS: Getting bored with this back and forth. You can have the last word (which I'm sure you delude yourself into thinking that somehow you've "won" something).

Personally, I believe that anyone saying that our military is a "bunch of screwups" is lying when they say that they were in the military. That, and a certain little detail...

[HunterICX]

Subchases12 and Aramike, you both really need to take a break and walk away from the computer a bit. This back and forth between you two is getting old.

HunterICX

[Aramike]

Good, good ... you're bringing up facts to base your debate upon.Over 200.000 christians fled Iraq because of the violence, fair enough, but over 2 millions muslims fled the country as well for the same reason. How many muslims is a christian worth ?Violence isn't a "Christian" or "Muslim" issue.

But, mathematically speaking, in Iraq Muslims outnumber Christians FAR MORE than 10 to 1. So, if proportionate, the argument would be "how many Christians is a Muslim worth?".

Furthermore, if we wish to be honest with ourselves as to why the violence is occurring, we must first isolate the violent events and then identify the causes. Within the framework of this discussion regarding Christianity in Iraq, one must identify what precipitated the violance against Christians. While two million Muslims may have left simply because they wanted to be in a safer place generally, did the 200K Christians leave for the same reason? Or, perhaps did they leave because the violence perpetuated upon them was a direct result of religious persecution?

Think about it: if bombs going off in Iraqi markets are killing 100 people, 95 of them may be Muslim. That would be demographically consistant. However, if a bomb goes off in a Christian church killing 100 people, 100 of the victims will likely be Christian - demographically inconsistant.

Personally, I believe that ANY violence against someone based upon their belief system is bigotted, and unneeded. I just don't see Christians attacking Muslims based on their faith. However, I do see the Jihad declared, the other way around.

Why do people find it easier to blame Christians than Muslim extremists?

[AVGWarhawk]

Crusade or not, I would not be wearing the red Santa suit.....easy target:o

[Aramike]

Mikhayl, good post. Now that's the kind of stuff I like to read ... anything that makes me think is awesome in my book.Now if you ask, christians in Iraq are targetted for being christians, just like sunnis are targetted for being sunnis, shi'ites for being shi'ites and all of them randomly, sometimes targetted by the government itself. That's very true. I agree with it completely.

However, Sunni vs. Shi'ite is similar to Catholic vs. Protestant in a sense. In any case, such a vast majority of the violence in Iraq is perpetrated in an untargetted fashion that one must conclude that it occurs in service to itself. In other words, bombers are blowing sh*t up because they want to blow sh*t up. Yet, the fact that Muslims have left the country demographically disproportionate to Christians would seem to suggest the violence against Christians was more direct and targetted.This forum in itself is a nice example of a paradox, I've been reading for just one year now, and there's a truckload of anti muslim arguments and it's seen as fair game because "they hate us". But in fact there's muslim members on this board, whether active or not, and I never saw a single inflamatory post not even in response to the muslim hating threads. Makes you wonder who hates who exactly.I've gotta say, this is anecdotal at best. There's probably 100s of people from all different political perspectives here, and I would bet that only a small percentage of them actually post. So it would be impossible to make any inference one way or the other.

Honestly, while I haven't been here nearly as long as you, I can make two observations. The first is that I haven't seen a single Muslim-hating comment. Instead, I've seen Muslim-extremist hating comments.

Secondly, I've seen comments hating Christianity ... not Christian-extremist, but Christianity in general.

Its odd what is tolerated and what is scorned.

[Aramike]

My point is, why care about one group and not the other. The percentage might be lower but we're still talking in millions of people, regardless of their religion.I agree. That's why I care about both groups and took exception to the argument of "how many Christians...".

It ultimately comes to the question of whether or not one believes in universal human rights (which I do).

[OneToughHerring]

"Good kids dress up as elves, naughty kids get water torture."

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/meast/12/21/iraq.christmas/art.christms.candle.cnn.jpg

Man, what a freaky looking Santa. Looks like a gimp from some s/m-party. Not that I have personal knowledge of such things.

[Aramike]

Well I do as well, That's why I took exception to you "agreeing 100%" with Skybird's post complaining about his country accepting Iraqi muslims refugees while he's ok with Iraqi christian refugees.I'm not sure that both positions are mutually exclusive.

[August]

I'm curious. If Germany doesn't get enough Muslim Iraqi immigrants does that mean they'll turn Christian Iraqis away?

[Foxtrot]

Probably Santa knows the location of baaaaddd and eeevvviiilllll Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction?