Unreallistic Planes!!!!!

[magicsub2]

ok, yes you may remember me as that crazy nazi fanatic, but you have got to realize that it was my cousin who was staying over at my house while I was on holiday. and HE is a nazi fanatic, unlike me who is not.

and now to the actual thread.

one day i was bored so i made a mission in new york with all the huge german battle ships (gwx 2.0).i also added some little shcnell boots and patrolboats. the battle was massive, the patrol boats weaving in between the battleships and the battleships pounding against the massive amount of merchant ships in harbour. the lag was too much but my pc could handle it. this was with the stock gwx 2.0 smoke, that was laggy on my computer. (if you have the same problem, use racerboys sh4 effects for sh3. the only thing that is annoying is the sound it makes when the little particles hit the water).

then the planes started comming. the harbour was littered with the corpses of ships, german and american alike. some of the german ones where in shallow water and could not sink so they stood their waiting for the seabed to wear thier hulls away. the battleships suddenly pointed thier guns to the sky, because the planes where comming (that sounded a bit childish, but anyway....). they managed to shoot a few down and i noticed that the emblems where still attached to the falling craft, as if they where stuck on invisible wings. I said to myself that was ok, becous the gwx team has worked hard to make it reallistic and they probably tried to stop that but couldnt. then the bismarck fired its massive guns at one of the aircraft and two of the shells hit the small aircraft (i think it was a catalina). and they did absolutely no damage to it except to make a thin trail of smoke come from one of its engines. I mean really, is that realistic??:shifty: .

one thing that i also wanted to say was i lost interest in sh3 because of the pointlessness of the new campaign, where you did not get any points for going and patrolling a square unless you sank a ship. that is why i play gwx 2.0 instead of 2.1. is thier any way to reintroduce the patrol points ?

and before i forget, why are there some harbours in gwx that have writing telling you where they are, but have nothing thier. are these problems or are they meant to be like that?

well thanks for reading this long post.

[A Very Super Market]

Crazy nazi fanatic? Maybe you mean to say WWII buff. A crazy nazi fanatic is um... a Nazi.

I haven't played 2.0, but I like the "no renown for reaching patrol grid" idea. The campaign in stock SH3 is built only on the free-roaming aspect, it doesn't model large naval operations or realism. The 300 renown you get is quite a lot for doing nothing more than your job, so I was fine with taking it out.

The emblems on planes are painted on, why would they fall of when damaged? There a many mods for more realistic damage, but they are centered on ships. You really aren't supposed to be watching the planes anyways, you are supposed to run, run, run from them.

The Catalina is a pretty big plane, I doubt it was the one you were talking about, but since when do battleships fire their main guns at planes?! THAT is unrealistic. The plane was either hit with AA, or a machine gun, and that probably wouldn't sink it.

SH3, even with GWX is a submarine mod. It is not a particularily good sim of surface..well, everything on the surface. It models torp damage and submarines very well, and it would be foolish to expend a lot of your time on things the player won't experience.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Crazy nazi fanatic? Maybe you mean to say WWII buff. A crazy nazi fanatic is um... a Nazi.

I haven't played 2.0, but I like the "no renown for reaching patrol grid" idea. The campaign in stock SH3 is built only on the free-roaming aspect, it doesn't model large naval operations or realism. The 300 renown you get is quite a lot for doing nothing more than your job, so I was fine with taking it out.

The emblems on planes are painted on, why would they fall of when damaged? There a many mods for more realistic damage, but they are centered on ships. You really aren't supposed to be watching the planes anyways, you are supposed to run, run, run from them.

The Catalina is a pretty big plane, I doubt it was the one you were talking about, but since when do battleships fire their main guns at planes?! THAT is unrealistic. The plane was either hit with AA, or a machine gun, and that probably wouldn't sink it.

SH3, even with GWX is a submarine mod. It is not a particularily good sim of surface..well, everything on the surface. It models torp damage and submarines very well, and it would be foolish to expend a lot of your time on things the player won't experience.

Thank you Super Market, you took the words right out of my mouth.:up: :up: :up:

[Madox58]

Well, if the only Harbors with names held ships?
You'd know exactly where to find them wouldn't you.
:hmm:
That'd be a bit like chaining a Deer to a tree with a big sign on it,
giveing you a map of it,
then invite you to go Deer hunting.
:lol:

[Task Force]

Well, if the only Harbors with names held ships?
You'd know exactly where to find them wouldn't you.
:hmm:
That'd be a bit like chaining a Deer to a tree with a big sign on it,
giveing you a map of it,
then invite you to go Deer hunting.
:lol:

Now that would be boreing. lol:lol:

[magicsub2]

when i say that they have nothing thier, i mean they have NOTHING thier. not even a harbour!

AND it was a catalina, i think its you who is getting it mixed up with a SUNDERLAND.

I saw it get hit with my own eyes. (that sounds wierd............)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Okey dokey.:ping:

[A Very Super Market]

Bluh...I don't know what to say, did you just accuse me of making a mistake I didn't make? I never said it was a Sunderland, and Sunderlands are British anyways. YOU said it was a small plane, which the both the Catalina and the Sunderland are not.

I don't know about the invisible ports, but stock does that with Scapa Flow among others.

[Brag]

Bluh...I don't know what to say, did you just accuse me of making a mistake I didn't make? I never said it was a Sunderland, and Sunderlands are British anyways. YOU said it was a small plane, which the both the Catalina and the Sunderland are not.

I don't know about the invisible ports, but stock does that with Scapa Flow among others.

Invisible ports?

Bernard: Let's go to an invisible port
Balz: the only time you're invisible is when you diguise yourself as a farting banana.

[magicsub2]

whoops, i was comparing catalina search planes to thee size of other planes, and you where comparing it to the size of the sub.:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

yay! I am a nub now!

[A Very Super Market]

whoops, i was comparing catalina search planes to thee size of other planes, and you where comparing it to the size of the sub.:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

yay! I am a nub now!

I wasn't comparing them to my sub, Catalinas are just very big planes! A small plane would be one of those patrolling biplanes around your home port. In either case, all planes are small compared to the GLORIOUS u-boat

[cj95]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.


This thread is funny and makes my head feel all weird inside.:doh:

[={FH}=Paddy]

Prrrrttttt.......Prrrrttttt.......oooopsss........ seems as though my brain is f*&ting!:-?

(Apologies, please do continue....!!):D

[magicsub2]

Prrrrttttt.......Prrrrttttt.......oooopsss........ seems as though my brain is f*&ting!:-?

(Apologies, please do continue....!!):D


WHY MY THREAD??:rotfl: :shifty: :lol: :roll:

[Mittelwaechter]

Not all harbours are modelled. Some are only named on the map for orientation (and education if necessary :p ). But you'll find quite some to do the harbour raiding...

German BB main batteries were capable to shoot AA ammunition. Don't know about others.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/history/tiroperparavane.html

[Wreford-Brown]

Is thier any way to reintroduce the patrol points?

My Renown Replacement mod reintroduces the stock renown values for reaching and patrolling your assigned grid.

You can find it at: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137713

[GoldenRivet]

You really have to look at the original context in which planes were used in Stock SH3.

The aircraft logic could probably be best put in simple terms as

1. Locate Player submarine
2. Fire machine guns at player submarine
3. Drop bombs on player submarine
4. repeat steps two and three against any enemy unit

In stock silent hunter 3 planes almost never made an appearance even in the dark years of 43,44,and 45. We just rarely encountered them.

it wasnt until GWX came along and added more planes, more models of planes, more weapons systems to planes including rockets that the aircraft really started to be taken seriously in SH3.

The original context in which aircraft were meant to be used in SH3 was to seek out and attack the player sub, and even then - in a very limited way.

When you inject various elements into SH3 as you have done in your mission builder... the airplanes are going to do their best with their limited AI to complete their basic function of attacking enemy units.

There are a lot of bullets flying though the air when you have so many ships all together firing at aircraft.

I am HIGHLY skeptical that Bismark fired her big guns at an aircraft such as a PBY, and subsequently scored a hit against that aircraft which did little or no damage.

More likely, what you saw was scarecly visible machine gun fire hitting the aircraft... or perhaps a flak burst.

And yes.... historically bismark DID use her big guns as an Anti-Aircraft defense.

though not as a direct impact weapon.

the strategy involved was one of firing a volley at approaching low level torpedo bombers in hopes that the resulting large splashes of the shells hitting the water ahead of the approaching aircraft would either provide an obstacle to the torpedo bombers to dodge, thus throwing off their aim... or that one of the aircraft would actually be hit by a shell or a shell splash causing the plane to crash.

I hope that you have had this issue cleared up.

If not, i might recommend that you place more emphasis on realistic scenarios and historical encounters with aircraft for the best GWX experience.

try limiting yourself to "no external view" or a few missions with map contacts turned off

[SeaWolf U-57]

ok, yes you may remember me as that crazy nazi fanatic, but you have got to realize that it was my cousin who was staying over at my house while I was on holiday. and HE is a nazi fanatic, unlike me who is not.

and now to the actual thread.

one day i was bored so i made a mission in new york with all the huge german battle ships (gwx 2.0).i also added some little shcnell boots and patrolboats. the battle was massive, the patrol boats weaving in between the battleships and the battleships pounding against the massive amount of merchant ships in harbour. the lag was too much but my pc could handle it. this was with the stock gwx 2.0 smoke, that was laggy on my computer. (if you have the same problem, use racerboys sh4 effects for sh3. the only thing that is annoying is the sound it makes when the little particles hit the water).

then the planes started comming. the harbour was littered with the corpses of ships, german and american alike. some of the german ones where in shallow water and could not sink so they stood their waiting for the seabed to wear thier hulls away. the battleships suddenly pointed thier guns to the sky, because the planes where comming (that sounded a bit childish, but anyway....). they managed to shoot a few down and i noticed that the emblems where still attached to the falling craft, as if they where stuck on invisible wings. I said to myself that was ok, becous the gwx team has worked hard to make it reallistic and they probably tried to stop that but couldnt. then the bismarck fired its massive guns at one of the aircraft and two of the shells hit the small aircraft (i think it was a catalina). and they did absolutely no damage to it except to make a thin trail of smoke come from one of its engines. I mean really, is that realistic??:shifty: .

one thing that i also wanted to say was i lost interest in sh3 because of the pointlessness of the new campaign, where you did not get any points for going and patrolling a square unless you sank a ship. that is why i play gwx 2.0 instead of 2.1. is thier any way to reintroduce the patrol points ?

and before i forget, why are there some harbours in gwx that have writing telling you where they are, but have nothing thier. are these problems or are they meant to be like that?

well thanks for reading this long post.

is there something I don’t know judging by some of the replies to this thread :hmm:

I would just like to say that I once came across a convoy travelling south along the south east coast of England and it was being attacked by German aircraft the warships had there guns pointing up at the aircraft and they were firing at them and some planes were trailing smoke and once I shot down i think it was an Anderson which lost its wing and it did look like the emblem was still showing where the wing was

[A Very Super Market]

Oops, I made a mistake.

Yeah, the plane emblems staying in mid-air is probably a graphics glitch

[magicsub2]

ok, yes, i might have been exagurating the bismarck firing its guns at the plane, it wAS probably the graf zeppelin, with its many shell guns.

but i did see the plane get hit with a AA shell or a HE shell.

[A Very Super Market]

Catalinas are sturdy bastards anyways, even two hits with AA wouldn't hurt it that much

[Madox58]

It was a SunderLand.
I just checked the dat.
The Mark for the left wing is Parented to the
Right wing.
Guess I'll have to fix that eh?

[A Very Super Market]

oO I'm confused...

How do you know?

[richardphat]

Meeh if that big gun from bismarck hit the catalina? And nothing happen? I doubt a solid AP shell will hit that plane easily.
They use AA shell, dont ask me how they work. I am not an army tech guy. However i know that they self detonate when they are close to a plane. It doesnt necessarly hit the plane, sometime it could blow next to a plane and still nothing happen.
I heard that AA is related to shock wave from explosion to blow those flies!


Oh wait, only speculation .........

[GoldenRivet]

Meeh if that big gun from bismarck hit the catalina? And nothing happen? I doubt a solid AP shell will hit that plane easily.
They use AA shell, dont ask me how they work. I am not an army tech guy. However i know that they self detonate when they are close to a plane. It doesnt necessarly hit the plane, sometime it could blow next to a plane and still nothing happen.
I heard that AA is related to shock wave from explosion to blow those flies!


Oh wait, only speculation .........
Most period AAA Shells were equipped with either a time delay fuse, or a barometric fuse.

An artillery spotter would use mathematical formula to determine the altitude and speed of the target aircraft, then the appropriate amount of lead-angle and barometric fuse setting (or time delay setting) would be calculated.

Once these settings were complete, the AAA guns would fire a sort of box pattern along the flight path of the aircraft which the planes would have to fly through.

Though landing a direct hit with an AAA shell would be catastrophic for the aircraft in most cases, a direct hit was not relied upon to damage the aircraft. There have been cases of projectiles passing cleanly through a wing or fuselage surface and out the other side without exploding, causing a neat shell shaped hole but resulting in little overall structural damage to the aircraft.

instead of relying on direct hits, the shells would explode when they reached their preset barometric altitude (or time limit) sending fragmentation in all directions, some of which may or may not hit the aircraft (think mid-air hand grenade). This could cause damage ranging from a small acorn sized hole in the aircraft skin... all the way up to a section of the aircraft breaking off entirely depending on the proximity and severity of the "hit"

Explosive Anti Aircraft Artillery of this type is generally only effective when fired in large numbers by numerous guns. which is typically not the case in SH3 because most ships are only equipped with a few guns capable of firing such rounds, and we frequently encounter no more than 3 or 4 such warships at a time.

We could discuss this to no end... but in real life, (something GWX has tried to do well to simulate) there have been many hundreds of situations where a plane has been hit and should have never made it home BUT IT DID... or ground crews for bombers and fighters looked over the damaged wreck of a plane amazed at how it even came home BUT IT DID... despite all the calculations of war... LUCK has a hell of a lot more to do with it than one might think. :up:

[Madox58]

oO I'm confused...

How do you know?

Anytime a part gets shot off but something remains floating in limbo?
It means it was attached to another part.

All this is determined by IDs

I check those ID's

The only marker unit whose PARENT ID does not match for a wing is the Sutherland.

Easy.

[A Very Super Market]

He didn't say it was a wing, he said it was a roundel

[GoldenRivet]

you're missing the point.

Ogg shoot airplane.

Ogg see wing fall off airplane

but roundel stay in air next to airplane!

Ogg want know why this happen?!

well, it is because the "roundel" has been linked to another part of the aircraft within the model file (im assuming) and the roundel thinks that the part its attached to is still there... therefore instead of falling into the sea, it stays as if nothing happened.

Privateer searched though the files and determened... "AHHA!!! He must be talking about a sunderland as the only aircraft with it's roundel connected to something other than the wing is in fact the sunderland!"

and by using his super scientific process of elimination he has determined that the sunderland was the culprit aircraft.

this is the way i am understanding it.

Privateer... is this correct?

thanks

[Mittelwaechter]

It happens...

http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/gteyeemi/RevellMarkings.jpg

[Nikita]

The Catalina is a pretty big plane, I doubt it was the one you were talking about, but since when do battleships fire their main guns at planes?! THAT is unrealistic. The plane was either hit with AA, or a machine gun, and that probably wouldn't sink it.


Well, I read Yamato had a special kind of AA ammo that was fired by her huge 18.1" guns! They put a terrific amount of shrapnel or HE in the air. I'm sure that somebody in this forum know this fact and can explain it better than me.

If Yamato had it, may be BB in ATO had too, but I don't know.

[A Very Super Market]

Ah, the Yamato had "beehive" shells. Scary on paper, but the gunners were no good, and the shells themselves screwed up the 18 inchers. The shrapnel was incendiary...

Anyways, the battleship was the Bismarck

[richardphat]

Ah that's why...that means the weapon designer has planned everything in real life......

[magicsub2]

actually because it was the first time i played gwx i think it was a torpedo bomber.

but thier where so many planes around i was not sure.

and it wasnt the plane that was hit with some gun and its emblem remained in the air.

BOTH COMPLETERLY DIFFERENT THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sniper_Fox]

There are a lot of bullets flying though the air when you have so many ships all together firing at aircraft.

I am HIGHLY skeptical that Bismark fired her big guns at an aircraft such as a PBY, and subsequently scored a hit against that aircraft which did little or no damage.

More likely, what you saw was scarecly visible machine gun fire hitting the aircraft... or perhaps a flak burst.

And yes.... historically bismark DID use her big guns as an Anti-Aircraft defense.

though not as a direct impact weapon.

the strategy involved was one of firing a volley at approaching low level torpedo bombers in hopes that the resulting large splashes of the shells hitting the water ahead of the approaching aircraft would either provide an obstacle to the torpedo bombers to dodge, thus throwing off their aim... or that one of the aircraft would actually be hit by a shell or a shell splash causing the plane to crash.

my thoughts exactly.... pity... or thankfully... we'll really never know which... the Bismark didn't stop those torpedo bombers in the final engagement like that. :-?

[A Very Super Market]

Doubt she would have gotten much farther, her fuel would run out sometime soon. The entire Royal Navy was after her.... she was dead as soon as the Hood went under