British army will have pulled out of Iraq by June 2009

[Skybird]

Their HQ at Basra will be taken over by the US army, reflecting both Iraqi and American security concerns over that sector. around 300 British trainers will stay in Iraq to train the Iraqi army officers and the Iraqi navy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/dec/10/uk-iraq-withdrawal-troops

[UnderseaLcpl]

Good for them!

At least I won't be bothered with requests for American MRE's when I go back next year.:D

Seriously, though, the British troops did an excellent job in Fallujah and Al Ramadi despite their limited numbers. Always professional when required, and very fun the rest of the time.

I, for one, am grateful for their assistance and understanding of the political issues which may have contributed to their withdrawl. I can personally attest to the excellence of the Royal Marines during the time of Operation Southern Fire in September '05.

I wish them a happy homecoming, and give them a hearty thanks for their service in the coalition effort:up:

[subchaser12]

I'm sure Iraq will be sad to see them go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RBXerP0p3Q

Well, one less terrorist organization to worry about.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Well, one less terrorist organization to worry about.


I beg your pardon?

[subchaser12]

Well, one less terrorist organization to worry about.


I beg your pardon?

You heard me. Two SAS (Special Air Service) men got caught red handed in Basra dressed as arabs terrorizing the place. There is video and all, look it up. They were fanning the flames of sectarian violence I see. I guess the place had settled down too much and need some "encouragement".

A generic definition of terrorism is killing civilians to achieve political ends. Well Britian is guilty of that. Not the first time Britian has spilled blood in the region, I believe Churchill in World War 1 realized the importance of that black gold and sent troops.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Well, one less terrorist organization to worry about.

I beg your pardon?
You heard me. Two SAS (Special Air Service) men got caught red handed in Basra dressed as arabs terrorizing the place. There is video and all, look it up. They were fanning the flames of sectarian violence I see. I guess the place had settled down too much and need some "encouragement".

A generic definition of terrorism is killing civilians to achieve political ends. Well Britian is guilty of that. Not the first time Britian has spilled blood in the region, I believe Churchill in World War 1 realized the importance of that black gold and sent troops.

So the actions of two SAS men is the basis of your judgement of my country's entire military force?

[subchaser12]

So the actions of two SAS men is the basis of your judgement of my country's entire military force?

No, it's a judgement of your countries leadership. This is hardly the actions of "two men". This was an SAS black op gone bad. I've only known one British guy, nice guy but he would not fart without asking his leaders if it was ok. Ironically they go to Iraq to fight terrorists and do some of the terrorizing themselves. Bad day for the SAS there. Must have been embarrasing getting caught running a false flag operation like that. Those SAS men were not acting on their own obviously or they would be sitting in prison.

Just think that ten years ago there would not be an internet that would let such unpleasant things out into the open. Ten years ago this would have been easy to coverup, just prevent the major media outlets from releasing the video. Now thanks to the internet all those potential government coverups bypass all the censorship and get viewed worldwide.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

So the actions of two SAS men is the basis of your judgement of my country's entire military force?
No, it's a judgement of your countries leadership. I've only known one British guy, nice guy but he would not fart without asking his leaders if it was ok. Ironically they go to Iraq to fight terrorists and do some of the terrorizing themselves. Bad day for the SAS there. Must have been embarrasing getting caught running a false flag operation like that. Those SAS men were not acting on their own obviously or they would be sitting in prison.

Just think that ten years ago there would not be an internet that would let such unpleasant things out into the open. Ten years ago this would have been easy to coverup, just prevent the major media outlets from releasing the video. Now thanks to the internet all those potential government coverups bypass all the censorship and get viewed worldwide.

I'll be the first to admit this country's leadership leaves alot to be desired, but I dont appreciate the British army being accused of terrorism. Where are you from, that you may make such judgements of others?

[subchaser12]

I'll be the first to admit this country's leadership leaves alot to be desired, but I dont appreciate the British army being accused of terrorism. Where are you from, that you may make such judgements of others?

Did you even watch the video? Did you google this incident online. I'm from America so I know all about how governments will kill civilians and blame it on the "bad guys".

Britians 7-7 had a terrorism exercise going on that very same morning. On 9-11 there was a terrorism exercise going on that very morning. Wow, what a coincidence.

Funny how the terrorists strike right when the US and British government just happen to be around the corner conducting an "exercise".

[XabbaRus]

Oh boy, more conspiricy claptrap yea we had an anti-terror op on at the same time so we must have set the whole thing up stuff....

Actually I have googled and it seems the SAS guys where actually spying on a commander suspected of torturing people in jail

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1500740/Captured-SAS-men-%27spying-on-drill-torturer%27.html

[clive bradbury]

I am a pretty easy-going bloke, generally, and it takes a lot to get me angry, but I am now. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just about sick of a certain section of shallow, ignorant Americans spouting off about situations they know absolutely nothing about. We have too many on this forum , to be sure, and I wish that the majority of balanced, thoughtful Americans would condemn them too.

What I love about this particular scenario is that the ignoramus in question states how important the internet is for revealing information, but then believes the first video he sees without looking more deeply into the actual event. In fact, on the same u-tube page is another clip which explains the real situation, and the fact that a year later that particular police station was demolished by the British Army becuse the police based there were torturing and terrorising residents (their own people) in the region - and it was to gather this information that the SAS men were there in first place.

[Frame57]

Yes! The british have contributed honorably in the Iraqi situation. they are honorable and to have this maggot post his garbage here is a disgrace...:nope:

[mr chris]

I got back from tour out there a month or so back. It is really good to see the Iraqis being able to keep the peace themselves at last.
Just hope all the US guys i met moving into the COB have a safe tour.
Im sure i will see a few of them in Afghan in a few years.

[subchaser12]

I am a pretty easy-going bloke, generally, and it takes a lot to get me angry, but I am now. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just about sick of a certain section of shallow, ignorant Americans spouting off about situations they know absolutely nothing about. We have too many on this forum , to be sure, and I wish that the majority of balanced, thoughtful Americans would condemn them too.

What I love about this particular scenario is that the ignoramus in question states how important the internet is for revealing information, but then believes the first video he sees without looking more deeply into the actual event. In fact, on the same u-tube page is another clip which explains the real situation, and the fact that a year later that particular police station was demolished by the British Army becuse the police based there were torturing and terrorising residents (their own people) in the region - and it was to gather this information that the SAS men were there in first place.

You sound like Napolean from George Orwell's book Animal Farm. No no children, those men were not killing innocent people, they were trying to kill the "bad guys", you don't want Mr Jones to come back do you?

You would make a good citizen in a George Orwell story. The internet is very important because for the first time in history the "official" government avalanche of lies is totally bypassed.

Get used to it for I am the peasant with a pitchfork of modern times. We are armed with information this time which is far more dangerous than pitchforks. Afterall this is the information age.

[Morts]

I am a pretty easy-going bloke, generally, and it takes a lot to get me angry, but I am now. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just about sick of a certain section of shallow, ignorant Americans spouting off about situations they know absolutely nothing about. We have too many on this forum , to be sure, and I wish that the majority of balanced, thoughtful Americans would condemn them too.

What I love about this particular scenario is that the ignoramus in question states how important the internet is for revealing information, but then believes the first video he sees without looking more deeply into the actual event. In fact, on the same u-tube page is another clip which explains the real situation, and the fact that a year later that particular police station was demolished by the British Army becuse the police based there were torturing and terrorising residents (their own people) in the region - and it was to gather this information that the SAS men were there in first place.

You sound like Napolean from George Orwell's book Animal Farm. No no children, those men were not killing innocent people, they were trying to kill the "bad guys", you don't want Mr Jones to come back do you?

You would make a good citizen in a George Orwell story. The internet is very important because for the first time in history the "official" government avalanche of lies is totally bypassed.

Get used to it for I am the peasant with a pitchfork of modern times. We are armed with information this time which is far more dangerous than pitchforks. Afterall this is the information age.
im sorry, but you have to be stupid to belive that all the info on government conspiracies and coverups on the internet
then again you might be, i dont know

[subchaser12]

im sorry, but you have to be stupid to belive that all the info on government conspiracies and coverups on the internet
then again you might be, i dont know

I just got called stupid by a guy who doesn't seem to know how to capitalize or punctuate. I'll take your comment for what it is worth.

[Morts]

im sorry, but you have to be stupid to belive that all the info on government conspiracies and coverups on the internet
then again you might be, i dont know

I just got called stupid by a guy who doesn't seem to know how to capitalize or punctuate. I'll take your comment for what it is worth.
sure...change the subject and have a go at my english

[subchaser12]

sure...change the subject and have a go at my english

I'm sorry, I just saw your Denmark tag now. I appologize for mocking your English and won't do it again.

Let's get back on topic. Of course I don't believe every conspiracy theory, but let's face it, the government isn't exactly known for it truthfulness.

Need I remind you this entire war was based on lies? Forget about the WMD lies? Remember how Saddam was about to nuke us? Remember how Britian was told a nuclear missle could hit them in like an hour? Remember all those lies that were the foundation of this tragic war. Sorry if I don't believe the government anymore, they have lied too much and have zero credibility.

[Morts]

sure...change the subject and have a go at my english

I'm sorry, I just saw your Denmark tag now. I appologize for mocking your English and won't do it again.

Let's get back on topic. Of course I don't believe every conspiracy theory, but let's face it, the government isn't exactly known for it truthfulness.

Need I remind you this entire war was based on lies? Forget about the WMD lies? Remember how Saddam was about to nuke us? Remember how Britian was told a nuclear missle could hit them in like an hour? Remember all those lies that were the foundation of this tragic war. Sorry if I don't believe the government anymore, they have lied too much and have zero credibility.
np.
Ofcourse i know the government has lied about alot of things but you in the above posts made it seem like, to ME that you belived every single story out there on the internet about government lies

[Foxtrot]

so it seems that there were no baaadddd and eeeevvvviiiiillll Iraqi Weapons Of Mass Destruction

[XabbaRus]

How can you say that this is lies based on what a blog has said? You are saying that the telegraph article is a government lie? Prove it is.

[subchaser12]

so it seems that there were no baaadddd and eeeevvvviiiiillll Iraqi Weapons Of Mass Destruction

No and the ironic thing is operation "Iraqi Freedom" has probably killed more Iraqi people than Saddam and his henchmen did since he took power in 1979. Too bad George Orwell is dead he would have loved the name operation "Iraqi Freedom" haha.

[heartc]

Get used to it for I am the peasant with a pitchfork of modern times. We are armed with information this time which is far more dangerous than pitchforks. Afterall this is the information age.
You are armed with propaganda of the enemy, like many people in the West these days. And that is all. You are not smarter than the rest, nor are you impartial. If you were less caught up in the hatred of your own country, or indeed the whole Western hemisphere, you would realize how YOU have been had. Had there been more people like you in the US and allied countries back in the 1940s, the Germans would still be marching in Paris and the Nazis would still reign.

Hell, to be quite honest, my bet is you're just a commie. I'd be grateful if people would simply admit that, instead of pretending to be anything else, talking bull all damn day long and destroying the West.

[subchaser12]

You are armed with propaganda of the enemy, like many people in the West these days. And that is all. You are not smarter than the rest, nor are you impartial. If you were less caught up in the hatred of your own country, or indeed the whole Western hemisphere, you would realize how YOU have been had. Had there been more people like you in the US and allied countries back in the 1940s, the Germans would still be marching in Paris and the Nazis would still reign.

Hell, to be quite honest, my bet is you're just a commie. I'd be grateful if people would simply admit that, instead of pretending to be anything else, talking bull all damn day long and destroying the West.

Everything that isn't glowing patriotic gushing praise for the west is not enemy propaganda. That's an uneducated statement and one you stole from American propaganda. It is extremely cliche. How about the people sitting in jail over Abu Ghraib or the rape of that 14 year old girl and the murder of her family. All that must be "enemy propaganda" too.

The "terrorists" are scum too, that goes without saying; however I hold the western powers to a higher standard. The rag heads have an excuse to be slogging it out in the sand because they are still acting like it is 1250 but the west is supposed to be better than that. The west has the best and brightest people in the world yet they want to go to these places like Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan to slug it out in the mud like neanderthals (and lose too).

If the US didn't enter World War 2 the Russians would be marching around Paris right now. The US didn't jump in full tilt until it was clear Germany was going to lose. There is no way America would have entered World War 2 had Moscow fallen to the Germans. The US only entered World War 2 to keep Russia from owning all of Europe. Hitler didn't take the advice "never start a land war in Asia".

[baggygreen]

The "terrorists" are scum too, that goes without saying; however I hold the western powers to a higher standard. The rag heads have an excuse to be slogging it out in the sand because they are still acting like it is 1250 but the west is supposed to be better than that. The west has the best and brightest people in the world yet they want to go to these places like Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan to slug it out in the mud like neanderthals (and lose too).

I'm glad you ackonowledge the bolded bit.

But my question is what do you propose we do about it? Surely its not just a case of sitting back and letting them constantly strike at the west, because we're better than them so we shouldnt retaliate? Death by 1000 cuts right there.

What genuine and effective course of action would you suggest?

[Overboard]

You are armed with propaganda of the enemy, like many people in the West these days. And that is all. You are not smarter than the rest, nor are you impartial. If you were less caught up in the hatred of your own country, or indeed the whole Western hemisphere, you would realize how YOU have been had. Had there been more people like you in the US and allied countries back in the 1940s, the Germans would still be marching in Paris and the Nazis would still reign.

Hell, to be quite honest, my bet is you're just a commie. I'd be grateful if people would simply admit that, instead of pretending to be anything else, talking bull all damn day long and destroying the West.

Everything that isn't glowing patriotic gushing praise for the west is not enemy propaganda. That's an uneducated statement and one you stole from American propaganda. It is extremely cliche. How about the people sitting in jail over Abu Ghraib or the rape of that 14 year old girl and the murder of her family. All that must be "enemy propaganda" too.

The "terrorists" are scum too, that goes without saying; however I hold the western powers to a higher standard. The rag heads have an excuse to be slogging it out in the sand because they are still acting like it is 1250 but the west is supposed to be better than that. The west has the best and brightest people in the world yet they want to go to these places like Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan to slug it out in the mud like neanderthals (and lose too).

If the US didn't enter World War 2 the Russians would be marching around Paris right now. The US didn't jump in full tilt until it was clear Germany was going to lose. There is no way America would have entered World War 2 had Moscow fallen to the Germans. The US only entered World War 2 to keep Russia from owning all of Europe. Hitler didn't take the advice "never start a land war in Asia".


Thats Not the Whole Truth..The us entered the war partly because they were being
atacked from german subs.. and japan at pearl, but allso to help friends like the people in Brition and other places that wanted to be free.

Not just because of the "REDS". Simply more to it than that. :shifty:

[August]

If the US didn't enter World War 2 the Russians would be marching around Paris right now. The US didn't jump in full tilt until it was clear Germany was going to lose. There is no way America would have entered World War 2 had Moscow fallen to the Germans. The US only entered World War 2 to keep Russia from owning all of Europe. Hitler didn't take the advice "never start a land war in Asia".

Where did you learn your history? We didn't choose to enter WW2. Both Germany and Japan separately declared war on us first, forcing us, in both cases, to declare war against them in return.

[subchaser12]

What genuine and effective course of action would you suggest?

Say goodbye to the petro dollar and just buy the middle easts oil like everyone else without trying to steal it. If you want to defend the border defend it. Plunk the army down on the Mexican border. The TSA is a joke, like a terrorist is really going to walk up to the ticket booth.

I really don't see how kicking up the Sunni and Shiite hornets nests in Iraq is making anyone safe. The whole world knows we invaded Iraq for two reasons. The petro dollar and Israel. Well the whole thing backfired thanks to American incompetence so now after America leaves the real terrorists will take Iraq over.

Sorry Israel, thanks for playing.

[subchaser12]

The "terrorists" are scum too, that goes without saying; however I hold the western powers to a higher standard. The rag heads have an excuse to be slogging it out in the sand because they are still acting like it is 1250 but the west is supposed to be better than that. The west has the best and brightest people in the world yet they want to go to these places like Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan to slug it out in the mud like neanderthals (and lose too).

I'm glad you ackonowledge the bolded bit.



I only have to acknowledge it because you are believing your own propaganda. I think the term for that is incestuous amplification. Sorry to let you down put people opposed to the war are not automatically sporting "honk if you love Al CIAduh" bumper stickers. Please, that's just propaganda from the pro war people.

That's the false choice aka "you are with us or againsts us." I'm with neither. There has not been a war about freedom since world war 2. It disgusts me when the government calls everyone they want to invade Hitler. Sorry, Saddam was no Hitler and no we would not have been nuked had King George Bush not invaded.

[XabbaRus]

OK what bugs me here is that you are one of these people who reads a blog or few blogs that have a differing view to the mainstream press and conclude that it is more accurate or pure news as it wasn't written by "the establishment" shall we say. But blogs are more than likely even more biased or badly written as the nature of a blog is someones own personal view. Look at the ones subman1 likes to link to to support his arguments.

I'm not saying the Iraq war was justified or that coalition troops haven't abused their position but to say everything is a conspiracy is crass.

Also on the whole coalition troops have acted properly in accordance with the rules set out. Your gloating over these two soldiers really ticks me off. Why? Because the soldiers are doing the best job they can set by their political masters. Some bad eggs yes, the same in every army. To say there was no terrorism in Iraq before the war is daft. Saddam kept everything under the kosh. That however is not to say there were no movements againts him or attempts to destabilise him.

[Bewolf]

If the US didn't enter World War 2 the Russians would be marching around Paris right now. The US didn't jump in full tilt until it was clear Germany was going to lose. There is no way America would have entered World War 2 had Moscow fallen to the Germans. The US only entered World War 2 to keep Russia from owning all of Europe. Hitler didn't take the advice "never start a land war in Asia".
Where did you learn your history? We didn't choose to enter WW2. Both Germany and Japan separately declared war on us first, forcing us, in both cases, to declare war against them in return.
Erm...The US was supporting Britain big time aside land lease, to a degree they even joined convoy duty attacking german subs in the process long before any war decleration. Not that I can't sympahizse with this descision, but technically the US was far away from a "neutral" country that got a war decleration just so out of the blue. Hollywood does not really live up to this, just in case that is your source of information.

But, back to topic. To all the propaganda nonsense thrown around here, Goering hat a little bit to say to that.

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg
Trials after World War II.

[Skybird]

What has WWII to do with the British retreat in Iraq until summer next year?

Judging by the dominance and stubborness by which WWII and Nazi Germany enters most discussions on very different themes, I must conclude that some people have not yet learned that the war is long since over and that the Federal Republic is no Fourth Reich.

The SAS operation referred to in some postings, by all what I could find and also remembered, was no arbitrary terror strike. These two SAS members were no trigger-happy Blackwater mercenaries going lose in manhunter's paradise. In fact the Brits tried to relieve a situation around the prison from unacceptable conditions. It went wrong and later they had to use open force, paying with a negative PR score therefore. If there were alternatives for a more promising way of solving the situation in that prison, none of us can judge.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Sorry, Saddam was no Hitler and no we would not have been nuked had King George Bush not invaded.
Perhaps not, but you dont need to be Hitler to be a genocidal twat.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/internationalhumanrights/p/saddam_hussein.htm

[subchaser12]

Sorry, Saddam was no Hitler and no we would not have been nuked had King George Bush not invaded.
Perhaps not, but you dont need to be Hitler to be a genocidal twat.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/internationalhumanrights/p/saddam_hussein.htm

Unfortunately the media has turned the word "genocide" into a meaningless buzzword now. The word now has no meaning. Look at the title of your piece "war crimes". Yes Saddam was a dirtbag but calling his actions genocidal has just turned the word into a cliche. They should have used the word genocide more sparingly in the media because now the word has no meaning and they just want us to notice.

We didn't invade Iraq because Saddam was a meanie though. US actions post invasion towards the Iraqi and Kurdish people show we couldn't care less about the locals welfare, they are just an annoyance. I personally hate when the locals build their crappy lives on top of natural resources. The Iraqis ironically had a better life under Saddam.

When Saddam gassed the Kurds it was while he was friendly with the US. Also a little while ago when Turkey started attacking the Kurds I notice the US didn't do anything about it. Imagine that.

Who will the west invade next to liberate? There are dictators all over the world, who are we going to "save" next? Operation Congo Freedom? Operation North Korea Freedom? Operation Saudia Arabia Freedom? There are countless dictators out there, why did we only want to "liberate" the ones sitting on the largest oil supply on the planet. Hmmmm...

[Skybird]

I am far from excusing the US attack on Iraq, but I am also far from excusing the crimes of Saddam. The word genocide is strictly defined in the anti genocide convention by the UN, where it has the meaning of massmurder against members of a given ethnic or racial or cultural origin and supression of cultural traditions and ways of living in an attempt to systematically destroy the longterm survivability and thus: future existence of this ethnic, racial or cultural group in it'S old, historical environment, and making them/it dissolving in a greater cultural or ethnic context/system, or to wipe them/it out as a separate entity or being. Of course, this oimplies the conflict taking place in the natural envrionment of the victim - you cannot claim to be victim of genocide if aggressively moving into another people'S land, and then seing them trying to fight you off in a case of self-defense, your claim of genocide is not valid if you are the agressor and being resisted to by those you assaulted and who dol not wish to fall back in the face oif your aggression.

the exact formulation of the anti-genocide convention, and the later appendices and comments on it, can easily be found via internet, and I have repeatedly linked to that over the past 6-7 years.

All this is the meaning of the word "genocide", and Saddam sure as hell is guilty of that, as is for example Turkey guilty of genocide regarding the Kurdish people and their cultural identity it tries to wipe out, or the massacres and supression of the Armenians, or is the Rwanda massacres in the 90s or the Sudanese Jandjaweed assaulting of civilian villages a "genocide". the Chinese commit genocide in Tibet because they try to delete the culture, and Stalin committed genocide when moving around whole peoples in the southern parts of the USSR in order to make them rootless and easier to control by trying to delete their cultural identity.

as far as i do nknow, English knos only the word "genocide", but in German, we have to words which have identical meaning, "Genozid" and "Völkermord". The latter is much more revealing for the nature of "genocide", meaning in word-by word translation "murdering a people", also meaning "murdering a culture"