Fallout for the Royan navy over Iran - RN incident

[bookworm_020]

Well at least they should be greatful that they don't do capitial punishment anymore!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24764782-31477,00.html

Well Australia was lucky not to have ended up the same way!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1854274/posts

[Cohaagen]

Of course, the real lesson we all learned - from blogs and anonymous comments, anyway - was that should a similar situation befall the US they would respond by going all out and fighting to the last bullet...and when that was fired, they'd used bayonets, and when those broke, they'd use sharps sticks, and when those snapped, they'd use stones, etc etc. Just don't mention Sgt Maples crying in front of millions as he thanked Khomenei for his hospitality during the US embassy takeover. Or Army Sgt Joe Subic, who collaborated by identifying "CIA agents" among embassy staff. The tub-thumping flagwavers seem to have erased these incidents from the popular record, but they did happen. We don't even need to get into the aborted rescue - hardly Operation Barras or the SAS storming the Iranian embassy in London.

PS - I think the Australian Navy has dined out on their encounter with the Iranians for long enough. It'd have been better if they'd just kept that cheap shot to themselves, actually.

[subchaser12]

Just don't mention Sgt Maples crying in front of millions as he thanked Khomenei for his hospitality during the US embassy takeover. Or Army Sgt Joe Subic, who collaborated by identifying "CIA agents" among embassy staff. The tub-thumping flagwavers seem to have erased these incidents from the popular record, but they did happen. We don't even need to get into the aborted rescue - hardly Operation Barras or the SAS storming the Iranian embassy in London.

PS - I think the Australian Navy has dined out on their encounter with the Iranians for long enough. It'd have been better if they'd just kept that cheap shot to themselves, actually.

Please remember that 99% of any military is made up of people who could not afford a better lifestyle. Sure they will beat their chest and talk about the stars and stripes but who wants to admit "hell this was the only ticket out of my trailer park".

Don't give these kids any grief because the only thing separating them from their uniform and their job at McDonalds they had before "defending freedom" is a few measly weeks of basic training. Big deal.

Seriously though special ops people are told just to keep their mouth shut for 3 hours so the rest of the team can evac. These kids never got any training on what to do if captured. Are we supposed to hope they "saw that movie" and know they are supposed to never talk and spit in the face of their abuser.

[Cohaagen]

I don't hold the Marines from the US embassy incident to any set of idealised standards, and I'm certainly not criticising them. Just making sure we keep it in mind before comments from over the Atlantic similar to those following the FreeRepublic article (and many more) start to appear. My lasting impression of the RN affair was how much US super-patriots enjoyed gloating over it with an inflated sense of superiority.

[baggygreen]

My take on it, without any flagwaving, is that the world was lucky to get away with it without there being a series of escalations into conflict.

If the Iranians tried it on again, I'd take a guess at the price of oil hitting new highs, global recession or not!

[bookworm_020]

PS - I think the Australian Navy has dined out on their encounter with the Iranians for long enough. It'd have been better if they'd just kept that cheap shot to themselves, actually.

I would hardly say they were bragging about it, as they didn't let the public know untill after the RN incident, and they weren't the ones who first told the story, it was the UK media.

If they had been further away from the vessel they were expecting they would have ended up like their RN counterparts. In the RN saliors had been able to get back on board the ship like the Australian saliors they would have most likely done the same thing, but weren't able too.

It was no attempt to make the saliors caught look bad, they kept their heads in a high pressure situtation and stayed safe. If they had gone out all guns blazing, the out come would have been a lot worse.

[diver]

My take on it, without any flagwaving, is that the world was lucky to get away with it without there being a series of escalations into conflict.

If the Iranians tried it on again, I'd take a guess at the price of oil hitting new highs, global recession or not!

Do you really think these are isolated incidents?

[baggygreen]

By "tried it on again", I was referring to keeping a crew prisoner.

I've got no doubt there are both maritime and land border confrontations on a daily basis

[Jimbuna]

.

If the Iranians tried it on again, I'd take a guess at the price of oil hitting new highs, global recession or not!

I certainly hope so.

[August]

Please remember that 99% of any military is made up of people who...

Seriously though special ops people are told...

Just where do you get your information?

[Morts]

Please remember that 99% of any military is made up of people who...

Seriously though special ops people are told...

Just where do you get your information?
i'd like to know that too

[August]

Personnal experience I guess.

Well I have served in not only the military but SpecOps as well and that hasn't been my experience. Some sure but 99% or even a majority? No.

[MothBalls]

Please remember that 99% of any military is made up of people who...

Seriously though special ops people are told...

Just where do you get your information?
i'd like to know that too

Must of pulled it out of his ass. That's where his brain is.

[Jimbuna]

Never question the bravery of our soldiers.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2288/soldiermy6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[August]

Obviously I can't speak for the US military, but I know first hand that in the french military way over 50% is close to what Subchaser described, the kind of people that played heads or tails between a job at mcdonald's or the military.
But yes the special forces (used loosely, including special groups in not special at all units) are a different world altogether, more educated people and a much higher brains/muscles ratio.
I don't know when you served, but with the current needs in manpower of the US military I'm guessing the selection is probably on par with that of the french army these days, don't you think ?

I'm not familiar with the French army's induction requirements but i do know that the US military has a higher percentage of high school and college graduates, per capita, than a similar sized group of civilians.

[bookworm_020]

Never question the bravery of our soldiers.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2288/soldiermy6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It's a Cling-on, Captain!:o

[AntEater]

He looks like a volunteer for another tour in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Mars.....

:rotfl::damn::rotfl::damn:

[August]

He looks like a volunteer

Actually he's not even in the military yet.

[Ramius]

....Please remember that 99% of any military is made up of people who could not afford a better lifestyle. Sure they will beat their chest and talk about the stars and stripes but who wants to admit "hell this was the only ticket out of my trailer park".

Don't give these kids any grief because the only thing separating them from their uniform and their job at McDonalds they had before "defending freedom" is a few measly weeks of basic training. Big deal...

You cheaky f*&^ing b#$%&"d !!!

I'd love to meet you in person and let you say that comment :yep:



p.s. Sorry everyone else. Some things just instantly make submariners flash :arrgh!:

[subchaser12]

You cheaky f*&^ing b#$%&"d !!!

I'd love to meet you in person and let you say that comment :yep:



Next time you are in America let me know and we can meet. I'm 72 inches tall 244 pounds and I bench in the neighborhood of the mid 300 range.

P.S. Bring lunch.

[Morts]

I'm 72 inches tall 244 pounds and I bench in the neighborhood of the mid 300 range.

P.S. Bring lunch.
soo..what you're saying is that you're not really a big and scary guy ?:rotfl:
180 cm, 122 kg

[subchaser12]

soo..what you're saying is that you're not really a big and scary guy ?

It's not that I am big and scary, but I'm no one you would jump on without a better reason than a political comment.

People like to think every anti war anti military person is some 130 pounds homosexual. That isn't the case.

[Wolfehunter]

:huh:Jim man where do you get this stuff. :rotfl: Jeeze. I need a drink after that one.:()1:

[bradclark1]

Next time you are in America let me know and we can meet. I'm 72 inches tall 244 pounds and I bench in the neighborhood of the mid 300 range.

P.S. Bring lunch.
At 244 pounds maybe you should skip lunch. Not anti anti-military, just noticing.

[subchaser12]

At 244 pounds maybe you should skip lunch. Not anti anti-military, just noticing.

Well, it's definately not a six pack. I can't lie :doh:

[Jimbuna]

:huh:Jim man where do you get this stuff. :rotfl: Jeeze. I need a drink after that one.:()1:

Well don't go trying this with a drink in yer hand :lol:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O6LOClmCxFE&feature=related

[Tribesman]

Just wondering ....
THE British navy has completed a discreet clean-out of the senior figures involved in the debacle over the arrest by Iranian Revolutionary Guards of 15 British sailors and marines.
Is this debacle the debacle where they were operating in waters that British admiralty orders said they could not operate in and the UN mandate under which they were conducting operations said they coud not operate in but were captured while conducting operations in ?
Just curious as to if this clean out is a punishment of senior figures is for breaking the rules or for being caught badly while breaking the rules .

[Jimbuna]

Just wondering ....
THE British navy has completed a discreet clean-out of the senior figures involved in the debacle over the arrest by Iranian Revolutionary Guards of 15 British sailors and marines.
Is this debacle the debacle where they were operating in waters that British admiralty orders said they could not operate in and the UN mandate under which they were conducting operations said they coud not operate in but were captured while conducting operations in ?
Just curious as to if this clean out is a punishment of senior figures is for breaking the rules or for being caught badly while breaking the rules .

A little bit of evidence as to what their precise location was at the time would be helpful.

[bradclark1]

Just wondering ....
THE British navy has completed a discreet clean-out of the senior figures involved in the debacle over the arrest by Iranian Revolutionary Guards of 15 British sailors and marines.
Is this debacle the debacle where they were operating in waters that British admiralty orders said they could not operate in and the UN mandate under which they were conducting operations said they coud not operate in but were captured while conducting operations in ?
Just curious as to if this clean out is a punishment of senior figures is for breaking the rules or for being caught badly while breaking the rules .
They are being punished for the affair being turned into an 3 ring circus looks like to me.

[Tribesman]

A little bit of evidence as to what their precise location was at the time would be helpful.
The Royal Navy provided the evidence of location at the time, it was backed up not only by the GPS but also by the attendant warship and the helicopters that were dispatched .
The British government first claimed that they were in Iraqi waters , then that they were in international waters .
The Admiralty then said they were in waters that are disputed by Iran and Iraq which both claim soveriegnty , they also said that the RN is not permitted to operate in disputed waters as doing so not only is beyond the UN mandate but can be taken as an act of agression .
The Navy said that the possible explanation for this mistake was that the boats had drifted during the operation and entering the waters was unintentional , however the Iranians claimed that six previous instances showed that it was an established pattern of British vessels operating in the disputed waters .
Now I don't doubt that in all possiblity both the Iranian and British governments told lies , but when the admiralty said they were in disputed waters then I am kinda tempted to believe them .

[Jimbuna]

A little bit of evidence as to what their precise location was at the time would be helpful.
The Royal Navy provided the evidence of location at the time, it was backed up not only by the GPS but also by the attendant warship and the helicopters that were dispatched .
The British government first claimed that they were in Iraqi waters , then that they were in international waters .
The Admiralty then said they were in waters that are disputed by Iran and Iraq which both claim soveriegnty , they also said that the RN is not permitted to operate in disputed waters as doing so not only is beyond the UN mandate but can be taken as an act of agression .
The Navy said that the possible explanation for this mistake was that the boats had drifted during the operation and entering the waters was unintentional , however the Iranians claimed that six previous instances showed that it was an established pattern of British vessels operating in the disputed waters .
Now I don't doubt that in all possiblity both the Iranian and British governments told lies , but when the admiralty said they were in disputed waters then I am kinda tempted to believe them .

I believe a lot depends upon which side of the propaganda machinery/mechanism you have confidence in.

How far after the actual event did the RN release this statement?

It really wouldn't suprise me if a swift release was agreed subject to a 'neutral' admission by the RN at a pre determined time acceptable to both sides.

[Rip]

soo..what you're saying is that you're not really a big and scary guy ?
It's not that I am big and scary, but I'm no one you would jump on without a better reason than a political comment.

People like to think every anti war anti military person is some 130 pounds homosexual. That isn't the case.

So you weigh more than the norm, I did not notice you challenge the rest of the stereotype. Since stereotypes appear to be your specialty it makes one ponder.

I know one thing, I live in America and the only way I would meet you anywhere is in public during daylight hours and you better stay out in front of me where I can see you. Don't think for a second all that submariners are homosexuals crap, homey don't play that.