This is another reason why I can't religion seriously.

[subchaser12]

SUVs on the alter. Wow, just wow. I mean everyone knows Big JC rides around in an old beat up bus.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN0746551320081207

[Dowly]

Rrrrrrright. :roll: That gotta be one of the stupidest thing I've heard in awhile.

[Kapt Z]

Makes you really wonder what 'the Almighty' is thinking about this.

Man, I hope he has a sense of humor. Otherwise we are all _______!

:doh:

[UnderseaLcpl]

It may interest you to know that even amongst the religious, there are idiots, just like everywhere else. I'd be willing to bet that these people are equally as stupid about things other than religion.;)

[Skybird]

Religion always was and still is about the wellbeing of clergy. Without believers who believe what they are being told, clergy can't grow fat and round. Believers' stupidity is clergy's basis of power, control and wealth. Spirituality has nothing to do with either religion, or clergy, or believing.

[Digital_Trucker]

Religion always was and still is about the wellbeing of clergy. Without believers who believe what they are being told, clergy can't grow fat and round. Believers' stupidity is clergy's basis of power, control and wealth. Spirituality has nothing to do with either religion, or clergy, or believing.

That's so cynical it's depressing. How do you get through the day with such a great attitude?:roll:

[Skybird]

That's so cynical it's depressing. How do you get through the day with such a great attitude?:roll:

By not mismatching "spirituality" with "religion". ;) actually, I get through the day very well - free, and happy. Cynism and realism - are two very different things.

[Hitman]

Here in Spain, mainly in rural Andalucia, many small towns and villages usually "take the Saint out in procession" to ask for rain, meaning they take the statue of the local Saint (Who supposedly advocates for that city to the eyes of the Allmighty) and make a procession to pray for having rain (Southern Spain is a very dry place as you might know, and it badly hurts harvests). But it has not been rare over history to take the Saint out to ask for rain, and then having to take him out some weeks later to actually pray for rain to stop, when a mediterranean storm fixed over there :lol:

[Digital_Trucker]

That's so cynical it's depressing. How do you get through the day with such a great attitude?:roll:
By not mismatching "spirituality" with "religion". ;) actually, I get through the day very well - free, and happy. Cynism and realism - are two very different things.

Good point. Religion doesn't always have to be as you describe it, though, in my opinion. There are actually religions where the preachers volunteer their time to preach and don't get fat off of their parishioners, or drive fancy cars or live in fine houses that they haven't paid for from their "real" jobs.

[Tchocky]

I have always had trouble religioning seriously.

[DeepIron]

There are, and always will be examples on both sides of the "bell curve", this episode far out on the left (silly), Jones Town was far out on the right (woefully tragic).

Thankfully, most people tend to fall more in the center...

[AVGWarhawk]

Religion always was and still is about the wellbeing of clergy. Without believers who believe what they are being told, clergy can't grow fat and round. Believers' stupidity is clergy's basis of power, control and wealth. Spirituality has nothing to do with either religion, or clergy, or believing.

Man, Skybird, short winded response. Coming from you that is something special. I agree on all points in just the four sentences you have written. :up: Brevity!

[DeepIron]

Religion always was and still is about the wellbeing of clergy. Without believers who believe what they are being told, clergy can't grow fat and round. Believers' stupidity is clergy's basis of power, control and wealth. Spirituality has nothing to do with either religion, or clergy, or believing.

<sigh> Hmmm... ok. So, because I believe in God, go to a "church" which has a form of "clergy", that makes me stupid? I have a Masters in Computer Science but because I go to a building with other like minded people and receive the Word of God from a "clergyman" that makes me less intelligent than those who don't? If I didn't already know who the poster was and his particular, unwavering point of view, I might have found some offense in the remark. :lol:

Why, pray tell, should your sense or definition of spirituality be any more correct (or intelligent as the case warrants) than mine?

[subchaser12]

If god is real why does the pope need a bullet proof ride? That shows how much they believe right there.

[DeepIron]

If god is real why does the pope need a bullet proof ride? That shows how much they believe right there.Nothing to do with belief, it's pragmatic survival these days... it's like saying, "Gee, if God exists, then I can walk off the edge of this cliff and He will prevent me from killing myself." Who in there right mind would walk off a cliff? No one I know of. By the same token, the Holy See isn't going to go out in public when there are known "bad guys" around who would like to take him out. Prudent precaution...

Believing in God doesn't mean taking your brain out and ignoring the Real World and it's problems...

[Hitman]

<sigh> Hmmm... ok. So, because I believe in God, go to a "church" which has a form of "clergy", that makes me stupid? I have a Masters in Computer Science but because I go to a building with other like minded people and receive the Word of God from a "clergyman" that makes me less intelligent than those who don't?

Having a master in Computer Science prooves that you are very intelligent in science. That does not mean you are very intelligent in other areas.

I don't think that you are less intelligent for believing what a clergyman tells you, as "believing" is the key word here. You choose to believe, and some very intelligent people in history (Intelligent in philosophy and metaphysics) like f.e. Kant did the same :)

But, it still is just a personal decission where intelligence is voluntarily excluded. It is a jump into the vacuum, a matter of personal belief, and therefore intelligence must get out of the equation. In that sense, you can call it stupid, using the term stupid as opposed to rational.

I myself consider all current major religions ridiculous and impossible to be accepted rationally because of their evident internal contradictions and its will to control the society. However, that is just my personal view and I respect the right of others to throw themselves into that. It's their choice, and I don't have anything else to say about it, as long as they don't pretend that I must change my daily life or sacrifice my freedom to follow what they believe, of course.

[DeepIron]

I myself consider all current major religions ridiculous and impossible to be accepted rationally because of their evident internal contradictions and its will to control the society.It might surprise you, and others, that I feel the same way. I don't believe there is a "religion" today that is "correct". Christ warns us in Matthew (and other places concerning the Pharisees and Sadducess) to be wary of them for they are the "blind leading the blind"

I think this about sums it up: (from http://executableoutlines.com/matt/mt16_5.htm )

The true Pharisees today are those who:
a. Teach and practice traditions of men, instead of the commands of God
b. Teach one thing, while practicing another
c. Do things to be seen of men, wearing special garments and asking to be called by religious titles
d. Do not truly show people the way to the kingdom of heaven
e. Use religion to make money and impress others
f. Make distinctions where God has made none
g. Stress some commands, but neglect others as unnecessary

Personally, I think THIS is what people see when they become critical of those of us who truly and whole-heartedly seek the Kingdom of God.

[Safe-Keeper]

Religion, no problem. You want to believe there's something more, go right ahead.
Organized religion... I have a problem with. Face it, there's no evidence for any gods. Which means that if you have to believe in one, it should be a personal thing, not something you're indoctrinated into.

Want to wonder if there might be a spirit at the bottom of the dark, scary lake, go ahead.
Want to listen to a guy who's 100% sure that her name is Reidun, that she loves it when you sacrifice cod filets to her, hates it when you don't wear a life vest, and curses whoever swims on Thursdays or during winter months, when she hibernates... well, I can't stop you, but I'd advice you to ask the guy where he got his ideas from;).

Here in Spain, mainly in rural Andalucia, many small towns and villages usually "take the Saint out in procession" to ask for rainAnd this is different from Native Americans doing rain dances how:lol:?

[subchaser12]

If god is real why does the pope need a bullet proof ride? That shows how much they believe right there.Nothing to do with belief, it's pragmatic survival these days... it's like saying, "Gee, if God exists, then I can walk off the edge of this cliff and He will prevent me from killing myself." Who in there right mind would walk off a cliff? No one I know of. By the same token, the Holy See isn't going to go out in public when there are known "bad guys" around who would like to take him out. Prudent precaution...

Believing in God doesn't mean taking your brain out and ignoring the Real World and it's problems...

So reliance on the almighty all knowing all powerful perfect being aka "God" isn't enough? He has to wrap his ass in bulletproof material. I agreee it's pragmatic because everyone knows, especially the pope just how murderously insane a lot of his people are.

The only thing more outrageous than telling people to have faith and needing bulletproof cars is asking people to give to the poor. The Vatican is sitting on probably the most valuable art collection on the planet, how about having a yard sell and feeding the poor? The church is a joke and everyone knows it.

[Skybird]

There are actually religions where the preachers volunteer their time to preach and don't get fat off of their parishioners, or drive fancy cars or live in fine houses that they haven't paid for from their "real" jobs.

Preaching? Why that? Doing so does not tell you anything about the deity the preaching is about. It only tells you about the preacher - and why do you care for that figure? You are not him. If you meet Buddha, kill Buddha. If you meet Jesus, kill Jesus. If you meet God, kill God. Kill all your unproven concepts and ideas, imaginations and fantasies, terms and labels. Free yourself of everything, and maybe your mind becomes open enough to just see reality around you, unhidden, all revealing, never having been cloaked from you, never having hidden even the smallest thing from you. All you need to do is empty yourself of all the rubbish you carry around with yourself, so that there actually is some space in you again which reality can place itself into. The "greatest deceiver" is not some imagined Allah - but your own mind too busy with its own hyperactivity. Nobody is hindering you, nobody is judging you, nobody threatens or punishes you - just you yourself. Why are you chasing around like hunted suspect? Stop, take a deep breath, come to rest, look around. Come back to your mind, come back to your senses.

Hmmm... ok. So, because I believe in God, go to a "church" which has a form of "clergy", that makes me stupid? I have a Masters in Computer Science but because I go to a building with other like minded people and receive the Word of God from a "clergyman" that makes me less intelligent than those who don't? If I didn't already know who the poster was and his particular, unwavering point of view, I might have found some offense in the remark. :lol:

You receive the word of a god? No. You receive the words of a clergyman, and you chose to believe his preaching of what god is and wants, without his claims and statements ever being checked for truth and reality, or being available for that. But I insist on evidence if such claims are being made like clergymen and their dogma usually raise. Simple, solid, old-fashioned evidence that can hold it's ground both in the face of reason and logic, and at a courtroom where it is about sentencing or freeing a suspect on the basis of evidence. That burden of evidence is with you, not with me saying it is all nonsens, because it is you trying to sell an invisible car that nobody can see and even you cannot see, you even cannot tell where it is parked, what its features are, and you certainly cannot invite me for a test drive, since you don't know where the keyhole is, and you can't sit down yourself for you don't see the door - and all that says just this: you even naver had a ride in it yourself - but you try to tell me how it drives!? :lol: . You want me to buy that thing? First you prove that the car is there. then I have a tesdrive. If you can't make that possible, you are either guilty of fraud, or you indeed have made yourself taking it for real that the invisible car is there - and that I would call stupid behaviour indeed.

Believing is taking something one has not or cannot or want not check - as real and true, although one does not know. Believing a dogma of religion is giving up wanting to know, but being obedient to believing the dogma - that is the deal. You do not think, but you agree to stop thinking - that is the nature and essence of religion. By being blind to thought and reason, you become available to manipulation by dogma, and the dogma serves the priests - either their ego telling them they are VIPs and your duty is to applaud them and give them a bath in public attention, or serving the institution's material and power interests the clergy represents.

Believing is no knowledge. It is absence of knowledge, and rejection of knoweldge. Knowledge is replaced with believing hear-say, superstitious fantasy, and manipulation.

Religion is about believing, and it tries to rule out reason and thought. both are antagonistic. You cannot believe and be reasonable in thought and mind at the same time. Reason and logic show the real nature of religion that it tries to hide - that's why religion tries to prevent reason and logic.

Spirituality is asking questions about your existence, why you are there, where you came from, where you go, and how much time you have. the greater a creature's level of self-awareness, the more such questions become pressing for it. Spirituality is not about believing, but direct own experience. Man cannot escape to be a spiritual creature, therefore, and probably to varying degrees many higher animals are as well spititual lifeforms as well. we all struggle with ourn lives and ways to deal with irt'S challenges, and we all find different answers to it, and try different ways. Maybe even systems like an ecosphere, swarms of cooperating single-cellular lifeforms, or galaxies are needed to be understood that way, too. Maybe the whole cosmos we believe we have realised by the functioning of our biologicall predetermined senses - is trying to become aware of itself, and is spiritual, and in that understanding: divine. Maybe life is the attempt of mind becoming aware of itself. Or if you want it in your terminology: the eye of God trying to see itself by imagining a mirror to look into. But the difference is that this god and this creation are one and the same, and thus you are divine and are god not more or less than i am, or a stone is, or God is, but you are God in full and without limits, which all means in the end: God IS. Religious dogma of course tells you God and creation are two separates, the first created the latter, we are his creation and are object of his will and planning, and his nature and essence and ours are two separate things. the mediator between man and god is the clergy, and if man realises the nature of god himself, clergy would no longer be needed and would not benefit any longer from mankind letting it suck mankind's lifejuice - that's why clergy wants you to just believe them, but call you a heretic and a threat and chase you around if you advocate direct god-experience bypassing clergy, or do not care for their sermon. Any religion's clergy is nothing else than human history's greatest parasite ever, no matter if christian, Jewish, Isalamic, Buddhist or Hinduist. Kick them all.

However, I don't tell you what you should believe - I am not one of those preachers you mentioned. I only give you the advise, to stop just believing something you are being told, but try to find answers yourself by experiencing reality.

Just if some religion's preachers take it upon them to tell mankind aboiut their glorious mental fantasies of what people should believe in order to be free/happy/saved/holy/, I am getting annoyed and tell them they either should give evidence for their claims - or f#ck the hell off and get out of my eyes' and ears' range and stop messing around with trying to make society theirs.

Give evidence, please, for religion's many statements and claims, and it's demands for respect that it never has earned and never has deserved and never has justified. Evidence - is that asked too much for? You bet it is! Believing is never a virtue. It simply indicates that you do not know, and are satisfied with less than knowledge, and making yourself convinced that nevertheless you know. If that helps you to wait for the hour of your death without being too nervous about the perspective, my congratulations. You will die as a happy unknowing man, which maybe is not the worst - or maybe it is: who knows. ;) If it may turn out to be true that heaven and hell are no locations but [I]states of mind, you maybe should feel worried enough to start asking questions about what you believe you know.

[Hitman]

Christ warns us in Matthew (and other places concerning the Pharisees and Sadducess) to be wary of them for they are the "blind leading the blind"


The problem is that it is NOT Christ who is telling you that. If Christ ever existed and if he ever told that, he did it to the people who were listening at him back then. What you read in the Bible nowadays is what those who heard it from one of the four evangelists (Two of them are probably copies of the two others) told to the first christians, who then told that back to the next ones, who finally (nearly 300 years later) decided to write it down.

I do believe there is a God, and as Skybird says, I accept that believing that is not completely rational. For me, it is simply the most logical explanation to what I see, think and experience. But it comes a moment when you must take a position, and for me the only way to take it in this matter is to accept what is the most probable answer, since no evidence can be found of either exitence or non-existence.

That said, my vision of God is entirely personal and unconnected to any religion, and of course I do not pretend anyone to believe what I do, not even listen at it. It is my personal conclusion, for my own use. The rest of my beliefs regarding ethics, moral and such are entirely based in natural law and philosophy, as all that provides a rational support to the conclussions. If God exists, as I believe, his will regarding us must be revealed in a manner that is possible for each and every one of us to access them, and that can only come from rational and moral thinking and philosophy, never from an express "revelation" to a chosen one or fews who shall pass the word and make a monopoly of that. In that case, it would never be "universal". And if he doesn't exist, then the rules of moral I follow are equally valid as they are based in reason and philosophy, which is the most you could pretend to base them upon, if God doesn't exist ;) .