Childrens Elementary School

[Neptunus Rex]

Boy is this ever off topic!

As this forum is diverse and worldly I thought I would ask you all.

Here's the scenario:

I have three boys, the oldest is a freshman in High School. The other two are in 3rd and 5th grade. My issue applies to my younger two as homework and grading go.

Back in my day, my teachers checked to see if I did (or attempted to do) my homework and it would be checked to see if I was having any problems. Homework got grades as;

S = Satisfactory (do it)
U = Unsatisfactory (not finishing)
I = Incomplete (not doing homework)

At NO time was my homework ever graded for correctness AND the grade entered onto my record. The S, U, or I were loaded as a factor for final grades.

It turns out my 5th grader's homework, which I consider an exercise to build on that day's lesson(s), is actually being graded (n%) and entered into his grade record.

This just strikes me as wrong. This equates with the teacher showing them how do do something and then demanding they get it exactly right on the first time they do on their own.

Before I go and start making an issue of this (because I think it is SOP in these schools here) I ask my SUBSIM collegues on this issue. Though my kids school is not having problems, a large part of the district is on academic watch by the State. (and I think this may be a large factor.)

So all you parents and teachers, please chime in.

[SteamWake]

Just dont let them use red ink to grade their papers. It might hurt there self esteem. :smug:

I dont really understand the question as in n% like 80% correct?

Frankly I see no problem with grading their work on 'correctness' as long is it isnt an objective subject such as english composition.

In my day we got graded A, B, C, D, & F where A was ... perfect and F was failure. In some ways that was quantitative grading as well.

[silentrunner]

I think homework can be graded, but it shouldn't count for a lot. Homework is practice not an exam:up:

[GoldenRivet]

when i was in Kindergarten, and 1st grade (perhaps even 2nd)... we used the S, U, & I technique.

However, as we moved in to 3rd 4th 5th grade when mathematics, and spelling, and other assignments which required a certain level of understanding of the material i remember always being graded on the n% scale.

My niece is in 2nd grade... she is graded on the S, U, I scales

My Brother in law is in 6th grade... he has been on n% since about 3rd grade

[ekempey]

As a preservice music teacher, I don't plan on assigning homework to be graded aside from the once in a while practice assessment. What they teach us here at Montclair is that grading should be reflective of how much each assessment (i.e. quizzes, tests, homework, classroom participation etc.) should count as a percentage of the overall grade. Most teachers give HW %10-%25 of the total grade. An example of this system is like this:

HW %15
Quizzes %35
Tests %40
Participation %10
Total = %100

Make sure you ask the teacher for their grading policy and breakdown before you go in there, post it here (or email), and I'll tell you if its fair. If they don't have a breakdown, whereas everything is equal, call bull****, and by all means go in there guns blazing.

[UnderseaLcpl]

As soon as you find a private corporation that will pay you for doing work that isn't correct, let me know. I'd love to work there. :D

Seriously, S, U, and I? Admittedly, I am not a parent, and I am only a teacher in the most vague sense, but such a system seems ridiculous to me, at least at first glance.

Would I be correct in assuming that a student could answer every question incorrectly and still get an S? That seems silly to me. And don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of homework assignments. IMO, if a teacher can't teach you everything you need to know in the time alotted for class, they're doing a poor job of teaching, but this grading system seems a little too lenient to me.

Of course, with this being an education issue, I'm compelled to take the stance I took on the "red ink" thread, which is; As long as I have a choice of schools, I could care less if someone wants their children to be graded on a scale like "S,U,I".

With the notable exception of charismatic people who can smooth-talk their way out of just about anything, the world doesn't care if you tried and got it wrong. The world, and the private sector that fuels it, demand results.

Personally, I have no objection to this, or any grading system, as long as I can choose, with a reasonable degree of financial freedom, where my children are educated ( in the hypothetical case that I ever had any, to be truthful) and I am not a parent, so there may be some issues I have not examined, but as a taxpayer, I have to pay for this crap and I'm tired of paying for failure. Bear in mind that I am referring to the U.S. education system here, but none of us would pay for groceries that were 50% acceptable, or for consumer goods that were rated as being "completed" "partially completed" or "not done" (I'm aware that many investment opportunities can lend themselves to these descriptions, and there is a significant difference there) in most cases. If I must pay for and subscribe to a nationalized education system, I refuse to accept such deplorable standards.

While I disdain the educational system we are currently saddled with and wouldn't personally approve of the SUI grading system mentiuoned above, I do have the common sense to know that children are people, and like all people, they have different needs for all things, including education. Perhaps your children would learn best in an environment where trying their best is rewarded more than doing things correctly. Hell, I'm not a parent, maybe my kids would learn best in that fashion as well, I don't know, since I haven't met my kids yet.

The be-all end-all solution here is choice. There is no politician, no activist, no lobbyist, no voter, who knows what is best for everyone, especially in issues that carry the magnitude that education does. Parents must be able to choose what is right for their children, and children must be able to choose what is right for themselves, to a reasonable extent. A competitive (and by nature, partially privatized) education system, where we have a choice as to which schools our children attend, one that extends beyond where we choose to (or must) live, is the solution to both problems. Even amongst economically disadvantaged families there should be a choice, just as there is a choice between McDonald's and Taco bell or KFC or whatever. Just as there is a choice between Wal-mart and the local grocer or Albertson's or Kroger or whatever. I am the first to admit that such a choice is not ideal, but it is a damn sight better than forcing everyone to subscribe to the same universally crappy system that the state provides.

Competition is the key, and competition thrives in the absence of state. Of course, I am not so naive as to believe that the state is not essential. It must provide strong support of the free market in the form of harsh penalties for fraud and unfair business practices like monopolization ( one of the more complex, but still easily solveable aspects of a political philosophy like mine) and it must provide defense against foreign military and domestic criminal threats, both of which can be severely curtailed by an armed populace.

As with all issues, I endeavor to solve this problem with freedom. Freedom of choice, freedom of governance, freedom of action, whatever. Freedom is key. Freedom to stumble, to fall, to fail, is also part and parcel of this belief. After all, none of us is without sin. We all make mistakes. What we learn from them is what makes us strong.

All of that is, of course, my belief. Perhaps the S,U,I, grading system is what is best for some children, and perhaps not for others. My question is why such a system, or indeed, any system, should ever be applied on a universal level. Whatever our beliefs, we are all people, and our children look to us for guidance. No one here would tell their children to look to politicians who we all despise on nearly every occassion for guidance, so why should we let them control the educational system? And, I might add, in light of August's argument in another post, state funding for education needs not equate with a state curriculum. If the state chooses to fund educational institutons, it is a noble cause, even if they have no constitutional right to do so. What the state does not have, in any capacity, is the right to develop the nation's educational system. The Constitution clearly enumerates the powers that the state should have, and education is not among them, no matter how liberally one interprets it. The document itself was designed to limit the powers of state, so it is obscene that any sort of federal regulation might be enacted under an "interpretation" of the laws set forth by the Constitution. The founders had the foresight to allow amendments to the constitution to be made, after a 2/3 majority was reached, so it is pretty damn obvious that they didn't want anyone mucking about with the responsibilities of the state that they set forth in very clear terms, unless an obvious need was present.

That being said, the founding fathers lived in a different world than we do today, but not so different as one might think. They sought liberty above all else, and they did their best to create an inviolable law that would preserve liberty for future generations. Today that law has been worked around and re-interpreted almost out of exsistence, but the spirit of it remains intact, and we must defend that spirit if we wish to retain the essence that made America great.

Education is the cornerstone of the electorate around which our government is built, and diversity is the cornerstone of that electorate. Choice in all things, especially education, is what made this country great, and choice is the only thing that can preserve it. We have already seen the deficiencies of our state-controlled public education system spiral out of control, and yet we pursue the same policy, believing that some person other than ourselves has the wisdom to make it right, if only we could find the right person. Even if such a person does exsist, they will not always be there. Our children's education is our own responsibility, and we should be free to choose where they are educated, free from financial, state, and legal constraints.

Yes, it is true that such an education system is unequal, and indeed, our nation is founded upon the promise of equal opportunity, not equal outcomes, but the current system is unequal as well. Even a cursory glance at the state of inner-city schools will validate that argument.

Would any of you, who have the fortune of having children, relegate their education to any system that you did not have direct control over, in the form of choice, as to where your children are educated at the least?

Consider the responsibility that you have as a parent, and consider whether or not you would entrust such responsibility to a political representative, or a beareaucrat, or anyone for that matter. So why would you ever entrust your child's education to a state system that is based upon where you live?

Whatever the beliefs of any parents here, I'm sure they can all agree on one thing; the welfare of their children is their responsibility, not that of the state.

[Neptunus Rex]

Clarification here; I'm only talking about homework. Tests, quizes and exams are graded n% (n being correct answers to total questions)

If a student gets most of the answers wrong, then either the student does not understand the material or the teacher sucks! Either way, the teacher has failed.

I have a simple test that I will use at the next conference. It's a simple question.

"Can you (the teacher) teach your lesson plan WITHOUT the use of homework?" If her answer is no, then I have to think that something is wither wrong with the teacher or the lesson plan she uses (or both).

My point is that homework is a tool to reenforce lessons taught. It is never to be used enlue of the lesson. Of course higher grades have higher requirements and the kids' need to learn that they have to learn on their own.

I was an Army Instructor for several years. We used the crawl, walk, run. Crawl, you show the soldiers what they are going to learn, the standard they must meet, then teach then the material. Walk, they practice doing the task. Run - practical test to standard. The Run phase is graded. And I'm talking about grown men here, not 10 year olds (though some of the troops I taught acted like it!)

[AVGWarhawk]

You are dead on Nep Rex. Homework is to drive home what was taught in class. Then the student performs what was learned with exam or test. If the student has failed, then either the teacher failed to teach, the student failed to study, the parent failed to ask if said homework is completed for the night. My wife teaches and this is her first year. She asked me if I think she is doing ok. I said to her, are all your students getting good grades on test and quizzes? Yes they are. Well, then you have done your job. Seeing her students test scores is her report card on her teaching ability. Thus far, she is an A+ honor roll teacher. Now, I have two daughters. There homework is NOT graded as part of their overall score. Homework is a reinforcer for what was taught that day. However, interim reports will show if said homework was incomplete or just not done. That is a failing of my daughters if the work is not done and it is a failing of me not to ask a simple question...is your homework done and do you need any help? Every night I help my youngest study for whatever she has coming up. My eldest is at the point for the responsibility of doing the work without me asking or supervising. But, she knows I'm there if she gets in a jam.

In short, no, homework should not be part of the overall grade. It is a continuance of the teaching tools that is conducted at home, hence, 'home' work. The grade obtained on the tests is the indicator of the proper process for teaching and comprehension of material presented.

[August]

Although i'd never do it to my students, I can see the arguments for grading homework. S/U/I alone doesn't really quantify the effort.

[subchaser12]

As soon as you find a private corporation that will pay you for doing work that isn't correct, let me know. I'd love to work there. :D



GM
Ford
Halliburton
Blackwater USA
FEMA (ok that's not private but still)

The list goes on and on.

[CaptainHaplo]

I was always graded on my homework. Then again, I went to a private school. The way I was graded and the way my son in school now is appears to be the same. Tests couns 2x - quizzes 1x and homework .5x - so if he gets 90 on a test, 85 on a quiz and screwed up his homework and got a 75 - his average is 85.3 - the homework grade hurt - but not tremendously. Its a minor part of the grade only.

My son is in elementary school (public) and his work is graded. The key is to reinforce the lesson - and if they just scribble a bunch of answers then how does the teacher know they actually DID anything?

I help him with his homework daily - and I check it for correctness. Why? Because if he doesnt get something right, I can help show him why and how to do it right. I don't correct every mistake - but try to help reinforce what he has been taught to do. This is part of being a parent - its NOT the school's job to educate my children - its their JOB to be PART of educating my children. Its MY job to be a part of that as well.

I have seen times when his answer was wrong - but he showed HOW he got the answer (Math) and his effort was given half credit. I am fine with that - it showed him that his effort was nice - but NOT satisfactory. It helped me to show him afterwards where he went wrong. (For him its often a lack of focus and not paying attention.)

By doing it this way, his teacher is able to see what he understands, what he doesnt, what he needs help with and what he can do on his own. It also helps ME to work with him on addressing those things that he has not yet grasped.

His reading comprehension is another area they are graded on. Often he has a book or something to read, and then has to answer questions about it. This is something he struggles with right now - and its because he skims instead of really slows down and reads with focus. Because he has specific questions with correct answers to work on afterwards, it helps us (the teacher and I) to gauge how much progress he is making, and if he applied true effort.

I would not be upset by this - instead take it as an opportunity to become more involved in your kids schooling. I know that helping with homework is time consuming and a pain - god I dread when my daughter is getting the same homework my son is now and he is getting slammed with it as well. After a long day of work its not fun - but its worth it. Not only are you helping create their foundation for success - its actually good bonding time with them as well. One day my kids will look back and remember all the times Dad helped with homework, or read them a goodnight story, or whatever, and so will I. They will be good memories, regardless of how tired I may be in the evenings now. They are our kids, how can we not go that extra mile?

*** Note - in no way is this saying your not already ***

[UnderseaLcpl]

As soon as you find a private corporation that will pay you for doing work that isn't correct, let me know. I'd love to work there. :D



GM
Ford
Halliburton
Blackwater USA
FEMA (ok that's not private but still)

The list goes on and on.


I can appreciate a good smartass comment:D You got me.

But you know what I mean, right?

[AVGWarhawk]

As soon as you find a private corporation that will pay you for doing work that isn't correct, let me know. I'd love to work there. :D


GM
Ford
Halliburton
Blackwater USA
FEMA (ok that's not private but still)

The list goes on and on.

I have to say FEMA kicked major butt with the last two storms. I know, I spent working days at 20 hours plus moving relief supplies over 5 weeks. If you say FEMA did not learn from Katrina, you are sorely mistaken. BTW, I drive two Ford products. Love them both. :up:

[August]

As soon as you find a private corporation that will pay you for doing work that isn't correct, let me know. I'd love to work there. :D


GM
Ford
Halliburton
Blackwater USA
FEMA (ok that's not private but still)

The list goes on and on.
I have to say FEMA kicked major butt with the last two storms. I know, I spent working days at 20 hours plus moving relief supplies over 5 weeks. If you say FEMA did not learn from Katrina, you are sorely mistaken. BTW, I drive two Ford products. Love them both. :up:

According to Subchaser12 they can do no right so you must be incorrect in your assessment. Please report to your nearest Democratic party HQ for re-education.

[Hylander_1314]

My daughter is home schooled accept for her orchestra schooling. I am a firm believer that a parent must really hate their children to send them to public schools.