Stupid Newbie Questions

[Aramike]

Well I've been browsing this forum for about a week now (tons of great info) and still have a few questions about the game.

I watched Legion's n00b vid and learned a lot. But, he detected his target via radar. What if you merely detect a target via hydrophones at long range? How would you find it's course, range, etc? And how best to intercept?

I think also that the whole concept of figuring out range has got me stymied. I'm really not that dumb! :D

The reason I asked is that I recently tried my first patrol and wasn't able to get anything to wander across my bow. I'm using auto-aim, btw.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[donut]

Use map tools,plot targets course,drive boat to get in position for shot. Thats why it's called;FINDEM CHASEM SINKEM:sunny:

[kylesplanet]

Well I've been browsing this forum for about a week now (tons of great info) and still have a few questions about the game.

I watched Legion's n00b vid and learned a lot. But, he detected his target via radar. What if you merely detect a target via hydrophones at long range? How would you find it's course, range, etc? And how best to intercept?

I think also that the whole concept of figuring out range has got me stymied. I'm really not that dumb! :D

The reason I asked is that I recently tried my first patrol and wasn't able to get anything to wander across my bow. I'm using auto-aim, btw.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

If your running the stock game, it should come with a map of the shipping lanes. Get your sub in those and you can find a lot more targets.
Just a tip, patrol the Luzon Straits. :arrgh!:

[Aramike]

Thanks for the help guys. Another question: in a recent encounter, my boat got pretty roughed-up. If I'm reading the damage correctly, two of four engines were destroyed and two of four battery-engines were kaput. However, although it showed that I had two engines perfectly fine, I couldn't move. Am I reading this correctly?

[Fincuan]

Although some of the screens show you with four engines, which is what Fleet boats really had, "under the hood" in the game you only have two.

Time to rig the sails or start rowing :up:

[ncorpuz34]

...What if you merely detect a target via hydrophones at long range? How would you find it's course, range, etc? And how best to intercept?
Do a search for or find a post by Rockin Robbins. He has a video of him sinking a ship using a sonar only method.

Basically you're going to be using the sonar contact bearing line and active sonar (ping) to find the contact at that moment relative to your ship. Mark his position on your nav map. Repeat as necessary to get find heading and speed. Set yourself up to a 90 degree angle ahead of his predicted course and launch a couple of fish in 5 sec increments as the sonar contact bearing line passes your shoot bearing*.

*Note: You must know how to use the Fast-90/Dick o Kane targeting method, which require the use of manual targeting. If your sticking to auto-targeting, you can always pop the scope up once you've placed yourself in the perfect shooting position and wait til green.

[SteamWake]

tried my first patrol and wasn't able to get anything to wander across my bow.

Well there not likely to oblige you by blundering accross your path. You have to take steps to get into a position to where they will do so. "Lay in wait" is the main tactic in a nutshell.

Keep in mind sometimes its just not possible, a fast moving task force to the north of you headed north would be nearly impossible to get into position for. Even if you could you would burn so much fuel doing it you might not get home. ;)

[Mr.O'Bannon]

I like to patrol the straights. They seem to get plenty of traffic.

[AngronIsAngry]

On my last patrol (think it is about mid '42), I got order to patrol before the Tokyo Bay.
There have been many convoys coming form the ports with 2 Passenger Carriers and a couple of escorts, as well as unguarded Passenger Carriers heading for the Ports. Boy was I cursing, having had most of my ammunition already expanded. :-?
At least I send 6 Contact Reports while completing the patrol objective.

[Aramike]

Thanks for the help, everyone. Kinda odd to see a community of "gamers" (I use that term loosely), that's teeming with information instead of flame wars.

Thanks again!

[Sailor Steve]

We can fix that too, if you like. We have something for everybody.

WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

[Aramike]

So let me tell you ... I'm usually a flight sim gamer, but I've just discovered that setting up an attack on a convoy and waiting for the plan to fall into place is a tension unrivaled in any other kind of sim/game.

That being said, I do have a few questions after my most recent disaster. I set up against an escorted convoy of about 8 merchies and 4 escorts. It was night and the weather was awful. Visibility was nil. Nonetheless I figured I'd try it out. In any case, I watched the convoy's advance via radar until about 5nm then dove to periscope depth. I found a position that would allow me to wait until the merchies crossed my path and I hoped the escorts would pass over head none-the-wiser.

Things seemed to be going alright until an escort DCed me straight to the bottom. He was pinging me prior to the attack, but I have to admit that I'm a little surprised he was able to find me at all due to the conditions.

In any case, this leads me to some questions:

First, how "detectable" am I using my own radar? Are there any guidelines for when to shut it down?

Secondly, I suspect a better tactic would have been to go deep and wait for the forward escorts to pass overhead, then pop up and try for the merchies. Would that be correct?

Thanks again!

PS: I'm using the stock version of the game, 1.5.

[Diopos]

Two - tree sweeps a time. Every 10 - 15 minutes. I prefer tracking by sonar (passive) when targets are near by. I use radar for "verification" and fine tuning my approach.

[Diopos]

...
Secondly, I suspect a better tactic would have been to go deep and wait for the forward escorts to pass overhead, then pop up and try for the merchies. Would that be correct?
...


Yeap!:yep:

[Munchausen]

In the war, some DDs had radar of their own. And emissions from one radar did (and still can) cause disturbances visible on another radar screen. (In fact, some U.S. skippers would send "messages" to one another by turning their radar on and off.) I don't know if the game really simulates these disturbances (I've never seen one on an SH4 radar scope) but I figure it's a good idea to assume SH4 ships act like their real counterparts of WWII. Ergo, limit your radar on-time.

Naturally, DDs with radar don't necessarily need to see your radar to track you. Nor do they need to hear pinging when you use sonar ... they can hear cavitation from your propellers. So, when submerged and on the attack, keep your speed at or below 3 knots.

[Aramike]

Cool, thanks!

Another question: what kind of guideline do all you experienced skippers use when deciding how many torpedos to shoot at a target? Do you go by tonnage? And, if so, what ratio do you use?

Also, let's say you approach a merchie at night. How far off can you feel safe that you can't be seen?

Thanks again!

[cleverusername]

Secondly, I suspect a better tactic would have been to go deep and wait for the forward escorts to pass overhead, then pop up and try for the merchies. Would that be correct?

That's the safe tactic. Make sure you're dead-stopped in the water and just let the convoy drive over you. Try to get to one side of the ships though so you can get a broadside attack and don't have to worry about getting rammed.

A more aggressive tactic is to come into the convoy at a diagonal. Slice between the lead and side escorts, take out the biggest target, and escape out the back. Remember to think in terms of relative motion when doing this type of attack.

BTW, when doing convoy attacks, a good escape vector is straight through the middle of the convoy. The zig-zagging merchants will block the destroyers and maybe buy you a few extra minutes.

[cleverusername]

Cool, thanks!

Another question: what kind of guideline do all you experienced skippers use when deciding how many torpedos to shoot at a target? Do you go by tonnage? And, if so, what ratio do you use?

Also, let's say you approach a merchie at night. How far off can you feel safe that you can't be seen?

Thanks again!

I never use no less than three, and typically four fish per target. I use manual targetting, so it's necessary to get a good spread if you want hits. Adjust the size of your spread based on the tactical situation and how confident you are in your firing solution.

If you're using automatic targetting, don't forget that the target might see your torpedoes and take evasive maneuvers. So a good spread is important. At the minimum, you'll want the spread to cover the target ship's length. If you're less sure about the firing solution, or if it's a fast target, calm seas, and bright day, then fire more fish and make a bigger spread.

If you see a battleship, heavy cruiser, carrier, big tanker, or any other big juicy target, don't be hesitant to fire all 10 torpedoes at it. 10 torpedoes in a nice big spread will pretty much gaurentee some good hits.

As for night attacks, if you can see them, they can see you. They might not see you, but don't press your luck. Dive down and sink them!

If you're not making enough speed to catch up to a ship when you're underwater, that means you were not in a good position to start with. Abort the attack, move away from the target, then surface and sprint ahead of it. Dive again and re-attack once you're in a better position. The most important lesson you'll learn is patience. Patience doesn't mean cowardice though, always be aggressive!

[Sandman_28054]

Cool, thanks!

Another question: what kind of guideline do all you experienced skippers use when deciding how many torpedos to shoot at a target? Do you go by tonnage? And, if so, what ratio do you use?

Also, let's say you approach a merchie at night. How far off can you feel safe that you can't be seen?

Thanks again!

There is no general "rule of thumb" per se, but I have found it to be useful to be within 2000-1500 yards before firing.

I have ran across several "small convoys" where there would be one DD and between 2 and 4 merchants. In this case, I try to get ahead of the convoy, be in a position 30 degrees realitive to heading and with 2000-1500 yards, and fire when they are in range.

As far as number of "fish," I can't really say. Some swear by the "sweet-spots." The ammo bunkers in merchants, the engine rooms of tankers, etc. Sometimes I have sank tankers with one "fish" and sometimes it has taken as many as 3.

I usually fire 2 per target. If it sinks them fine, if not, it slows them down till I can come back to them and finish them off with the DG.

And I have put as many as 6 into some BB's without sinking them.

[Munchausen]

Also, let's say you approach a merchie at night. How far off can you feel safe that you can't be seen?

This is one place were I do not assume the game works the same as it did in real life.

Night surface attacks became SOP (standard operating procedure) fairly early in the war. Then, with the introduction of gray-painted (versus black) submarines, skippers pushed the limit, getting close up and personal.

SH4 doesn't seem to reproduce this properly. Granted, day or night, you will see a ship at least a couple miles before it will see you (allowing you to shadow your target without losing sight of it). But I've never been able to sneak up on any target at night with the success of real-life skippers.

TMO improved the game ... allowing you to get closer before being detected. But it's still a far cry from what the bolder captains managed to do in real life.

[Aramike]

Okay, thanks again for all the help, but I'm back with more questions.

First, I'm running SHIV on Vista and I've tried downloading and using JSGME. Didn't work too well. I did a search on these forums and found something indicating that I should try right-clicking and running the app as an admin, or setting it's compatibility mode to XP.SP2, or both. I did both. Still no MOD folder created.

So I tried studying up on Virtualization, or whatnot, and I found where the program was creating the folders. Now what? I cut/pasted them into the main directory, but I have to admit I'm a tad hesitant to go any further as it seems that Vista will still be dumping data into that virtual program files directory.

Is there, perhaps, a Modding SHIV in Vista for Dummies anywhere?

Secondly, why do Jap destroyers always seem to get the drop on me? I set up ahead of a convoy, AT NIGHT, dive to 250ft, all stop, silent running. I start to make my way up to periscope depth to take a peek and, at about 100ft, I'm getting the crap pinged out of me! How the hell did they know where I was, and that I was coming up? Or, are they typically constantly pinging ahead of their position? Admittedly, the destroyer that was first pinging at me was one I had lost track of (my fault), but still I don't get how they found me so easily.

My plan was to track the convoy to about 10nm at NIGHT, dive deep, full stop, wait for lead escort to pass overhead, pop up and hit the merchies broadside. I used radar SPARINGLY during my approach.

Comments/criticisms/suggestions?

Thanks again!

PS: Oh, and I just got assigned the task of dropping special forces off on China's coast. I remember reading a thread about what parameters must be met in order for a mission to be considered complete, which answered what I had to do to finish this mission and a few other questions I have. Anyone know where that thread is, off hand?

[Sandman_28054]

Lets see here, lets break this up.

Okay, thanks again for all the help, but I'm back with more questions.

First, I'm running SHIV on Vista and I've tried downloading and using JSGME. Didn't work too well. I did a search on these forums and found something indicating that I should try right-clicking and running the app as an admin, or setting it's compatibility mode to XP.SP2, or both. I did both. Still no MOD folder created.

So I tried studying up on Virtualization, or whatnot, and I found where the program was creating the folders. Now what? I cut/pasted them into the main directory, but I have to admit I'm a tad hesitant to go any further as it seems that Vista will still be dumping data into that virtual program files directory.

Is there, perhaps, a Modding SHIV in Vista for Dummies anywhere?

Sorry, no help here.

Secondly, why do Jap destroyers always seem to get the drop on me? I set up ahead of a convoy, AT NIGHT, dive to 250ft, all stop, silent running. I start to make my way up to periscope depth to take a peek and, at about 100ft, I'm getting the crap pinged out of me! How the hell did they know where I was, and that I was coming up? Or, are they typically constantly pinging ahead of their position? Admittedly, the destroyer that was first pinging at me was one I had lost track of (my fault), but still I don't get how they found me so easily.

First off, why are you diving so deep? Just below the thermal layer id a fine place to "hide." Usually the thermal layer is about 165'-180'.

Secondly, from casual observations, the Japaneese Navy uses a type of Sonar similiar to that of the Americans. If you have played SH3 you'll know what I'm talking about.

At about 70'-80', they have no problems tracking you. And at depths you are talking about, the hull pops and cracks as the pressure from the sea decreases as you rise, another noise source. Ever seem the movie K-19? As the preassure increases, the "skin" will pop in, as pressure decreases, the "skin" pops back out.

It is always helpful in these types of situations to order silent running.

Now, above 70', the Japs can track you, but not with 100% accuracy. I had to evade 4 Auxlillary Sub-chasers the other day and with only 38% hull integrity left, I could not risk diving below 80'. I had the sub-chasers actively pinging me. Every turn I made, they made. But the thing I figured out was that staying close to the surface enabled to hear when they started their attack runs, and I could turn either left or right to avoid the DC's. And the DC's always fell below 70' before most exploded.

My stratagy is to get in front of the convoy, stay about 2500 yards away from where they are going to pass, go to battlestations, and then order silent running. I lower my 'scope to keep it from being licked up. I might raise it every once in a while just to verify range, course, and speed of the DD's and merchants.

If I can get the DD's to pass by, then I order ahead 1/3 and creep to within 1800-1000 yards of the path, order all stop, and sit and wait. At 3000 yards, torpedos running at Medium speed take between 1:30-2:00 to reach their target. Between 2000-1500, your looking at 1:30 to 1:00. 1500-1000 as little as :30.

Another thing to remember is there are two types of sonar: passive; active.

Most of the time, destroyer escorts are running passive sonar. Listening for noise sounds from underwater. (hydrophones are an example of this) Active sonar is the ones where you here the "ping" and a few seconds later another "ping" in return.

Your sub uses "active" sonar in its range finder.

PS: Oh, and I just got assigned the task of dropping special forces off on China's coast. I remember reading a thread about what parameters must be met in order for a mission to be considered complete, which answered what I had to do to finish this mission and a few other questions I have. Anyone know where that thread is, off hand?

Not off the top of my head, but I can tell you that this mission requires you to be within 3 nm of the target location, on the surface, and doing less than 3 knts to launch the liferaft.

Once you have done that, back away, send in a staus report, and new orders will come.

[Munchausen]

PS: Oh, and I just got assigned the task of dropping special forces off on China's coast.

I can tell you that this mission requires you to be within 3 nm of the target location, on the surface, and doing less than 3 knts to launch the liferaft.

:hmm: I believe you still need to come to the surface to get the mission to end. Meaning, you approach while submerged ... then surface at the drop-off point. If you approach while on the surface and, subsequently, wait forever to complete the mission, try a quick dive and then re-surface.

[Aramike]

Thanks, Sandman. Good stuff, although there must be an amazing hydrophone operator on the Jap destroyer to hear my hull-popping transients without any other sounds... or is there? I think I realized that I goofed by having my DC team active as well.

I do like your tactics as well, except you mentioned "medium speed" fish. Is that possible??? How does that work?

Also, I practically never use my active sonar. I don't find it terribly neccessary, and I find that the risks outweigh the gains. Am I alone in this assessment? I am using auto-targetting, by the way.

Thanks again!

Oh, and anyone out there with mod help? ANYONE? :lol: