Dec 7th

[clayp]

December 7th is coming...Lets not forget..Sink a couple of jap ships...

[AVGWarhawk]

I will be on the USS Taney on Dec 7th for a memorial service.

[SteamWake]

Good to see some rememberance...

Perhaps take a small amount of initative and visit this site as well

http://www.letssaythanks.com/Home1024.html

[Falkirion]

I'll definitely be booting SH4 up that night and sinking some Japs.

Great bunch of people these days though, good thing most of the imperialism is gone.

[rat sub]

I will be hunting japs too " Time for some pay back"

[clayp]

Good to see some rememberance...

Perhaps take a small amount of initative and visit this site as well

http://www.letssaythanks.com/Home1024.html

Steam great link bud...:up: Hawk wish I could go with you....:sunny:

[Sledgehammer427]

I am going to request a moment of silence at our school on monday, because we avoided it last year (i didn't) so i am proly going to make sure we do it this year.

[shoot-kill-win]

My school did not have a moment of silence last year either.
I had at least three kids last year who had no idea what happened on Dec. 7th, and one of them thought that we attacked Japan.
I wish there was some way we could help bring about better veteran recognition/ rememberance.

[clayp]

My school did not have a moment of silence last year either.
I had at least three kids last year who had no idea what happened on Dec. 7th, and one of them thought that we attacked Japan.
I wish there was some way we could help bring about better veteran recognition/ rememberance.

Yes this really upsets me..Most people,young people,kids have no idea what the young men and women hero's did in WWII...:down:

[SteamWake]

I am going to request a moment of silence at our school on monday, because we avoided it last year (i didn't) so i am proly going to make sure we do it this year.

Well its on a sunday but let us all know how that goes will you ?

[Mr.O'Bannon]

My school did not have a moment of silence last year either.
I had at least three kids last year who had no idea what happened on Dec. 7th, and one of them thought that we attacked Japan.
I wish there was some way we could help bring about better veteran recognition/ rememberance.

That is aggravating. It is not the childrens fault but the parents and educational system.

Both of my grandpas fought in the Pacific campaign in the Marine Corps and I cannot forget their sacrifices. I will pass it down.

[Sailor Steve]

I will, as I always do, pull out my trusty copy of Tora! Tora! Tora!. As for schools not remembering, I think it's part of a general lack of respect for history. People never remember Santayana's proverb, and they never learn. I had three uncles who served, and two of them were at Pearl Harbor on that fateful day. I won't ever forget.

[Task Force]

Yea, my school last year didnt do that ither. The history teacher pulled out a pic of pearl harbor and non of the other kids knew what it was.:nope: (I did but didnt say anything)

[kylesplanet]

What is more discouraging is these young kids love to hear these stories. My six year old nephew comes to my house every Friday night and the first thing he ask me is "Tell me about Pearl Harbor again." The lack of history being taught is really troubling.

I think I'm going to foot the bill for a private education for him. He's in kindergarden now so I'm thinking next year.

[silent killer]

a day to remember Dec 7 1941, me being a canadian i still feel the saddness of the loss of so many of your armed forces people that day, god bless.

[Hylander_1314]

My school did not have a moment of silence last year either.
I had at least three kids last year who had no idea what happened on Dec. 7th, and one of them thought that we attacked Japan.
I wish there was some way we could help bring about better veteran recognition/ rememberance.

Revisionist history, and a lack of parents educating their kids about historical points of American History (and I've found a lot of parents lacking interest, or have very little knowledge of historical points themselves), and the way the point of dropping the "bomb" on 2 cities has made the japanese more of a victim that the aggressors they were. I saw it in my daughter's school book, and you would swear the Americans started the war in the Pacific. Along with their evil European allies who were scum colonists.

[Falkirion]

Speaking of the nukes, who's decision was it to drop em on those two cities in Japan?

[breadcatcher101]

I never believed for a moment that Japan intended to have their declaration of war delivered before the attack at Pearl. If they had done so then the attack would not have been as effective as it was.

If we had been warned in time, what would have happened? They had a much larger fleet than we did. Most likely they would have sunk most of our ships in deep water where they could not have been repaired and possibly taken out the tank farm and dry dock at Pearl. It would have set our recovery back 2 more years at least. They could have then taken Midway, and later Hawaii, making it almost impossible for us to have a springboard on which to start an offensive drive.

It was a well-planned attack and carried out very well but it proved to be their undoing. Although they won the battle, they lost the war as the saying goes.

As for "the bomb", using that shortened the war saving the lives of countless Allied and Japanese had the invasion of the Empire had been carried out. Also Russia would have had time to have gained a stronger foothold with their invasion as well resulting in a divided Japan much like Germany used to be. Faced with that, Japan would have never recovered as well as she did.

We also plan on watching "Tora Tora Tora' the 7th. It's the best movie yet about the attack and the events that allowed it to be carried out.

[Orion2012]

I never believed for a moment that Japan intended to have their declaration of war delivered before the attack at Pearl. If they had done so then the attack would not have been as effective as it was.

If we had been warned in time, what would have happened? They had a much larger fleet than we did. Most likely they would have sunk most of our ships in deep water where they could not have been repaired and possibly taken out the tank farm and dry dock at Pearl. It would have set our recovery back 2 more years at least. They could have then taken Midway, and later Hawaii, making it almost impossible for us to have a springboard on which to start an offensive drive.

Or it could have been worsehad they made a declaration of war. Both the Lexington and Enterprise were on their way to Midway and Wake to deliver aircraft for help reinforcement the US bases and their defenses. The Enterprise should have been in port on the morning of Dec 7th but didn't make it until later on Dec. 7th. They were close enough to send aircraft, some of which were shot down by friendly fire.

Both of those carriers were decisive throughout the pacific theater, and had they been in port when the attack began probably would have ended up like several other ships that day.

Your 100% correct on not declaring war. This is a translation of the Japanese council declaring war which did not convene until 12:40 12/7/1941.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/matsum_1.html

[breadcatcher101]

Sorry, falkirion, I didn't see your post. I'll try to answer.

The decision was not made by just one person. The president of course gave the go ahead, but way before that happened a list of possible targets was compiled by a committee at Los Alamos. Gen. Groves, Henry Stenson, and Rieschaurer were involved along with many "advisors". The list was 6 or 7 cities, chosen because of their size and military importance. On the day selected the weather was a factor in which city would get hit. If bad weather conditions, go to target "B". This in fact happened with Nagasaki, it wasn't the primary target. As a result, the B 29, Bocks Car, just made it back before running out of fuel. Had the Japanese not had ended the war, the third strike would have been Tokyo.

[breadcatcher101]

Forgot to give you this link.
http://www.dannen.com/decision/targets.html

Different people on it from what I had read way back, who knows really? Anyway good info for what you asked.

[Capt. Shark Bait]

My school did not have a moment of silence last year either.
I had at least three kids last year who had no idea what happened on Dec. 7th, and one of them thought that we attacked Japan.
I wish there was some way we could help bring about better veteran recognition/ rememberance.

that's an absolute disgrace:nope:

[shoot-kill-win]

I know it was horrible, I was just appalled. This is my freshman year of college, and my U.S. History professor barely mentioned Pearl Harbor, and then spent most of WWII by saying the only real big thing to come out of it was the cold war. The teachers only care about the test scores, and if WWII is not on the test they will not cover it.

I know this is getting off topic, but I had an AP U.S. history teacher in high school whose dad was in the 101st airborne in WWII, so he made sure we learned about WWII, he did not know about our submarines in WWII so I gave a presentation to him and he was amazed with all they accomplished.

On another note, does anyone kknow of planned memorial events on Sunday? I know there were alot last year, because they opened up the U.S.S. Oklahoma memorial at Pearl.

[breadcatcher101]

The 7th does fall on a Sunday this time, doesn't it? I hadn't noticed it.

As far as locally, the only ones I heard are the VFW, haven't heard a thing as far as nationally. Everyone is so caught up with the bail outs and new CIC transfer of powers.

[Blow Negative]

My school did not have a moment of silence last year either.
I had at least three kids last year who had no idea what happened on Dec. 7th, and one of them thought that we attacked Japan.
I wish there was some way we could help bring about better veteran recognition/ rememberance.

That is aggravating. It is not the childrens fault but the parents and educational system.

Both of my grandpas fought in the Pacific campaign in the Marine Corps and I cannot forget their sacrifices. I will pass it down.

My father was in the Army in WWII (Eighth Army, Japan), and was a Marine in Korea. When he passed away three years ago, I made sure that he received military honors from BOTH branches - I still get choked up thinking about it.

He never spoke much about his service, but I do have some 1945 era Japanese 78's in storage - they are about 1/4" thick!

I make sure my daughter knows what "patriotism" is, and how the sacrifice of others keeps us free today.

[Hylander_1314]

Speaking of the nukes, who's decision was it to drop em on those two cities in Japan?

President Harry S. Truman. The bomb was so secret that only he had the authority to call for it's use in war.

[Hylander_1314]

I know it was horrible, I was just appalled. This is my freshman year of college, and my U.S. History professor barely mentioned Pearl Harbor, and then spent most of WWII by saying the only real big thing to come out of it was the cold war. The teachers only care about the test scores, and if WWII is not on the test they will not cover it.

I know this is getting off topic, but I had an AP U.S. history teacher in high school whose dad was in the 101st airborne in WWII, so he made sure we learned about WWII, he did not know about our submarines in WWII so I gave a presentation to him and he was amazed with all they accomplished.

On another note, does anyone kknow of planned memorial events on Sunday? I know there were alot last year, because they opened up the U.S.S. Oklahoma memorial at Pearl.

Sorry to say it this way, but your instructor is an ass. Obviously too, this individual hasn't got much of a grasp on history either.

[Sailor Steve]

That's okay. A friend of mine attended high school in Alabama back in the '60s, and he says his American history class spent the first two weeks getting from 1492 to 1860, and the last two getting from 1865 to the present. The rest of the year was spent...well, you know where.

[Aramike]

That's okay. A friend of mine attended high school in Alabama back in the '60s, and he says his American history class spent the first two weeks getting from 1492 to 1860, and the last two getting from 1865 to the present. The rest of the year was spent...well, you know where.Yeah, I personally found that irritating myself when I was in highschool. I've always been interested in WWII but seemed to find myself studying the Civil War year-in, year-out. I mean, we all understand the social implications of the Civil War, but as far as the war itself goes, it was practically a set-piece conflict. Studying the complexities and intricacies of the the Civil War rather than WWII is like learning to play the original Silent Service instead of SHIV.

As a result, I always felt that my generation never got its proper dose of pertainent history.

Look, slavery was an evil thing (and wasn't really the purpose of the Civil War to begin with) and I'm proud of its abolishment. But no conflict, the American Civil War included, has had quite the historical impact of the Second World War, especially regarding the United States.

Not only did WWII help spurn massive technological advances (aviation, Manhatten Project, etc.), but it was a far more "righteous" conflict than any before it, with good and evil clearly defined. I know that our modern, politically-correct teachers must teach the revisionist history of the Civil War in order to quell a racially-charged society but, as deplorable as slavery is, it pales in comparison to the wholesale slaughter of Jews.

I guess my point is that, while both conflicts are historically important and symbolic of great social strides and justices, World War II is clearly more nuanced and important to society today. But as an earlier poster pointed out, ask students what the importance of Decemeber 7th, 1941 is and there's a chance that some might say that's when the US attacked Japan. Ask them what the purpose of the Civil War is, and its a safe bet that they will say "slavery".

Both answers would be wrong, but one of them is actually taught in our classrooms.

Saddening.

[Dread Knot]

I guess I still see the American Civil War as the more important conflict in US history. It settled a lot of deep nagging issues that had lingered since the founding of the nation. Issues the founders knew would come back to haunt us. It determined whether would be two competing, weakened nations on this continent rather than one strong one. It was American cities and towns that were burned and besieged, not distant foreign ones.

World War Two was certainly important and quite eye-catching, but in comparsion to the experience that some nations went through we got through it pretty lightly. In the old Soviet Union World War 2 looms very large in their memory.

[Sailor Steve]

All good points, but mine wasn't to turn it into a Civil War vs anything or slavery or anything else discussion. My point was that my friend's teacher spent the entire year on his favorite subject, at the expense of everything else. No WW2, no Mexican war, no civil-rights-in-the-'60s, no Revolution or Constitution, no Prohibition, no Great Depression, no Lewis and Clark, no anything.

And that's the problem with schools today - they don't teach anything.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Remember, remember, the 7th of December
The japanese brutal plot,
The men who died on that day should never be forgot.

I know quite a few peolple who where witness to the Second World War,
13 where pilots, one in Europe and the other twelve where in the Pacific(VMF-214)
One bombadeer who served on both theaters, two people I know had relatives who where on the USS Arizona during the attack(1 marine, 1 sailor)
And my grandparents on my mothers side of the family saw the civilan side of the Winter War in Finland. I have also read the books written by the people who where there, Dick O'Kane, P.R. Reid, Lother Buchheim, Paul Brickhill, Greory "Pappy" Boyington, William "Bill" Ash and many other. These people are a link to the past and their stories of the events of that war should not be forgotten. Yet most people are not intersted in what happened 60, 100, 1,000 years ago.

[Subnuts]

My Grandfather never forgave the Japanese for Pearl Harbor.

He refused to believe me when I said that Americans made that movie.

[clayp]

My Grandfather never forgave the Japanese for Pearl Harbor.

He refused to believe me when I said that Americans made that movie.

Whats this supposed to mean!!!!!!!!!!

[breadcatcher101]

Do you guys think it was right to have placed most of the blame for the sucess of the attack on Kimmel?

Based on what I know I don't think it was, but I guess someone had to be the goat.

The decision seems even more lacking logic of any kind with MacArthur dodging any responsibility for failing to attack the invasion force at Formosa and allowing the Japanese to wipe out the B-17's he had, especially after having hours of warning of the Pearl harbor attack.

I am doing some Monday morning quarterbacking which isn't fair to a degree but the facts remain that he had a hard target at Formosa and knowing of the Pearl attack and allowing his force to be wiped out on the ground as it was was unexcusable.

Why he wasn't held responsible has always puzzled me. I guess at that point we simply needed a hero. I can think of no other reason.

[Task Force]

That's okay. A friend of mine attended high school in Alabama back in the '60s, and he says his American history class spent the first two weeks getting from 1492 to 1860, and the last two getting from 1865 to the present. The rest of the year was spent...well, you know where.Yeah, I personally found that irritating myself when I was in highschool. I've always been interested in WWII but seemed to find myself studying the Civil War year-in, year-out. I mean, we all understand the social implications of the Civil War, but as far as the war itself goes, it was practically a set-piece conflict. Studying the complexities and intricacies of the the Civil War rather than WWII is like learning to play the original Silent Service instead of SHIV.

As a result, I always felt that my generation never got its proper dose of pertainent history.

Look, slavery was an evil thing (and wasn't really the purpose of the Civil War to begin with) and I'm proud of its abolishment. But no conflict, the American Civil War included, has had quite the historical impact of the Second World War, especially regarding the United States.

Not only did WWII help spurn massive technological advances (aviation, Manhatten Project, etc.), but it was a far more "righteous" conflict than any before it, with good and evil clearly defined. I know that our modern, politically-correct teachers must teach the revisionist history of the Civil War in order to quell a racially-charged society but, as deplorable as slavery is, it pales in comparison to the wholesale slaughter of Jews.

I guess my point is that, while both conflicts are historically important and symbolic of great social strides and justices, World War II is clearly more nuanced and important to society today. But as an earlier poster pointed out, ask students what the importance of Decemeber 7th, 1941 is and there's a chance that some might say that's when the US attacked Japan. Ask them what the purpose of the Civil War is, and its a safe bet that they will say "slavery".

Both answers would be wrong, but one of them is actually taught in our classrooms.

Saddening.

Yea, We got acouple of days or weeks on ww2 in 7th grade. thats the only time we ever talked about it. (cause I was in Economic and government history in 8th grade.:yep: This year the topic is"Realy realy old stuff from along time ago", I heard next year that there is gona be alot on ww2 though.

[Orion2012]

I personally had almost 2 months on WWII in high school. Our teacher covered everything from Pearl Harbor, D-Day, the atomic bombs, and everything in-between. I remember one of the principals showing some German war medals that were his grandfathers and that alone was a 2 day discussion, then again this was AP US History and everything was a 2 day discussion.

[Aramike]

...not to mention the fact that it's practically taken forever to get a federal WWII Memorial in this county...

THANK YOU, VETS!!!

[clayp]

I forgot to mention that my wife is a school teacher and she has had a moment of silence in her classes and explains why for as long as we have been married,and thats a LONG time....:up:

[Sailor Steve]

That's pretty cool, Clay. I know there are a lot of teachers who still care, but it's nice to hear about one from time to time.

Do you guys think it was right to have placed most of the blame for the sucess of the attack on Kimmel?
'Most' of the blame? No, I don't think it's right either. It takes responsibility away from the superiors who didn't give him the right information at the right time. In fact, Husband Kimmel's predecessor, Admiral James O. Richardson, was relieved of command for protesting the moving of the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pear Harbor.

Yes, I believe Kimmel and General Walter Short could have done more, but that they were also the scapegoats. That's the military. If your ship runs aground, even if it happens while you're asleep in your cabin, your career is pretty much over. They were the men on the scene, so they took the worst of it.

[Hylander_1314]

To add to Kimmel's grief, I think his son was captured and executed by the Japanese.

[breadcatcher101]

He was. Thier sub hit a mine in Balabac strait, only those on watch were able to get to Palawan where the Japanese found them. A note was passed to an army POW telling of their fate which was given to friendly forces. Later when the Japanese there took a heavy air strike the enraged Japanese threw Kimmel and the others of his crew into a ditch, soaked them with gasoline and set them afire.

I think after learning of the mine hitting the sub, Christie put those straits off limits.

[Hylander_1314]

Yeah that's the one I was trying to remember. :nope: There was no need for that. But what can you do with an enemy who depises P.O.W.s?

[clayp]

He was. Their sub hit a mine in Balabac strait, only those on watch were able to get to Palawan where the Japanese found them. A note was passed to an army POW telling of their fate which was given to friendly forces. Later when the Japanese there took a heavy air strike the enraged Japanese threw Kimmie and the others of his crew into a ditch, soaked them with gasoline and set them afire.

I think after learning of the mine hitting the sub, Christie put those straits off limits.

I hate to say this and will most likely get in trouble for it but this is an example of why I will NEVER quit hating them and wish we had more Atomic bombs and bigger ones....

[breadcatcher101]

clayp, if you REALLY want to get your blood boiling read this: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Prisoners-of-the-Japanese/Gavin-Daws/e/9780688143701

One of the most heart-rendering books I have ever read. I really feel for those who had to go through what they did. I've always felt the Japanese were not held fully accountable for their barbaric acts toward the POW's.

[Dread Knot]

Setting aside Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we firebombed 95% of the country's urban area to the ground. I think we got our revenge plus interest.

[Aramike]

Setting aside Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we firebombed 95% of the country's urban area to the ground. I think we got our revenge plus interest.While I don't hate modern Japan, I don't think "revenge" is the best way to put it. Quantifying casualties is a mistake, especially considering that our casualities were the result of a war we did NOT start.

[clayp]

clayp, if you REALLY want to get your blood boiling read this: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Prisoners-of-the-Japanese/Gavin-Daws/e/9780688143701

One of the most heart-rendering books I have ever read. I really feel for those who had to go through what they did. I've always felt the Japanese were not held fully accountable for their barbaric acts toward the Poe's.

Catcher I'm afraid if I read that book I would go out and shoot a couple...

[breadcatcher101]

Hey, that's what your deck gun's for--plus the 24 torpedoes at your service. No wonder I like this game.

My father-in-law was in the 1st marines during WW2. Was in a shallow fox hole with 2 of his buddies when a shell hit they were killed, he was only slightly wounded. Never reported the injury, but for the rest of his life every once in awhile a bit of coral would work its way up through his skin and his wife would get a pin and twezzers and pull it out.

My first wife's mother was 16 years old living in Manila when the Japanese invaded.

Both had a hate for the Japanese that never did die.

That was way before my time and I am open-minded about it all today, but I will never forget it.

[Aramike]

I have a fair amount of living family left who survived the war, and to the best of my knowledge, they've all let any hatred go.

Hating the Japanese for the sins of their ancestors is akin to someone saying I should pay reparations for the fact that my great-great-great-grandfather owned slaves.

It's even more absurd now considering that the warrior culture of the Japanese is practically a mere memory.

[Dread Knot]

It's even more absurd now considering that the warrior culture of the Japanese is practically a mere memory.

Replaced by a culture that has given us anime, Pokemon, and Hello Kitty. I wonder if we could go after them for that. :hmm:

Yes...I am kidding. :D It's still vastly preferably to what they had.

[Aramike]

It's even more absurd now considering that the warrior culture of the Japanese is practically a mere memory.

Replaced by a culture that has given us anime, Pokemon, and Hello Kitty. I wonder if we could go after them for that. :hmm:

Yes...I am kidding. :D It's still vastly preferably to what they had.LOL! I guess there are SOME reasons left to hate the Japanese... :up:

[fireship4]

For those who have said they will be sinking some Japanese subs on the 7th - Please, you are talking about human lives. I guess I may be a hypocrite for saying that when I sink them myself in-game with a small amount of satisfaction on playing the "good side" etc., maybe.

Did I read somewhere the Japanese were forced (although it really should be a last resort) to war for economic reasons? Also it's worth considering the point that allowing pearl harbour to happen would have been a useful propaganda event to sway public opinion in favour of war.

To those who advocate the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I have yet to hear someone explain to me why the bombs could not be dropped off-shore or in tokyo bay or something. They were altitude triggered (one anyway i think).

And by the way weren't the Japanese sueing for peace at the time?


I have the same sentiment towards the posters above expressing hate for the japanese - afraid you "might go out and shoot a couple"? - **** me, sounds like an army candidate. I've heard "I just want to kill some pakis/muslims" or similar enough times as a reason to go and fight. Although the warrior culture was brutal in that respect, it is just that, another culture. Prisoners had given up fighting and lost all honour/respect. It was a different way of thinking and beautiful in some respects. I don't know if it was right, long discussion. Maybe not right to inflict it on others from a different culture.

[Hylander_1314]

No they weren't suing for peace. They planned to mobilize every effort to stop the Americans on the Home Island of Honshu with the motto of "our flesh agaist their steel". Estimates were 20 to 25 million Japanese, and 1 million Americans, maybe more for casualties. They planned on using women and children as human bombs, to kill and maim as many GIs as possible.

What pushed the "economic" issue to the forefront was the embargo of goods and materials to Japan since the Warlord run government refused to stop it hostile actions on the Chinese Mainland.

The attitude of the Japanese being some kind of victim here is revisionist garbage, as it's an attempt to make America out to be the bad guy again.

There was little loveloss between the American and Japanese forces. I think the same went for the Aussies and the Kiwis, as all the Allied forces sufferred unser Japanese rule when they surrenderred to the victorious Imperial Army.

The idea of dropping the bomb on open unpopulated areas was discussed, but the idea was dismissed as it was speculated that the Japanese would not be affected by it that way. As they weren't affected by just one bomb destroying a city. No would was received from the Japanese as they thought the Americans didn't have anymore bombs like that. After the second one was dropped is when they responded. What didn't know was that those two A Bombs were the only ones ready at the time, and it would be close to a year before another one would be ready to use.So in a sense, thre Americans with two A Bombs were bluffing. The bluff worked.

Of note though, more Japanes people died in the firebombings and more property was destroyed again by the firebombings with incendiary bombs than both A Bombs combined.

[Falkirion]

Fireship I take satisfaction in each and every merchant or IJN vessel I sink in SH4, and yes I was amongst those who said I'll go sink a couple on the 7th (Which I didn't, was busy playing World of Warcraft, that game is sucking the life out of me)

I harbor no ill will to modern Japan. They're a great bunch of people and have given me much more (Anime, movies, manga and most importantly cuisine) than they have ever taken.

^ Highlander explained it better than I ever could hope to.

[Aramike]

For those who have said they will be sinking some Japanese subs on the 7th - Please, you are talking about human lives. I guess I may be a hypocrite for saying that when I sink them myself in-game with a small amount of satisfaction on playing the "good side" etc., maybe.

Did I read somewhere the Japanese were forced (although it really should be a last resort) to war for economic reasons? Also it's worth considering the point that allowing pearl harbour to happen would have been a useful propaganda event to sway public opinion in favour of war.

To those who advocate the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I have yet to hear someone explain to me why the bombs could not be dropped off-shore or in tokyo bay or something. They were altitude triggered (one anyway i think).

And by the way weren't the Japanese sueing for peace at the time?


I have the same sentiment towards the posters above expressing hate for the japanese - afraid you "might go out and shoot a couple"? - **** me, sounds like an army candidate. I've heard "I just want to kill some pakis/muslims" or similar enough times as a reason to go and fight. Although the warrior culture was brutal in that respect, it is just that, another culture. Prisoners had given up fighting and lost all honour/respect. It was a different way of thinking and beautiful in some respects. I don't know if it was right, long discussion. Maybe not right to inflict it on others from a different culture.Human lives are not lost in roleplaying yourself in a video game from another era.

In any case, the Japanese's economic hardships were heavily due to their imperialistic ambitions. Just because they went to war for economic reasons doesn't mean those very reasons weren't brought on via another, more sinister plot.

Also, I find nothing whatsoever beautiful about a warrior culture. Honor as a personal matter is one thing; used in the way the Japanese leaders did it is merely a form of brainwash. Getting young people to throw away their promising lives for a hit on a naval vessel in the name of honor is NOT beautiful, IMHO. I believe it weakens a culture. Especially in that the very struggle they were engaged in was brought upon by those very manipulative leaders.

In one sense, however, you are correct in drawing a parallel between the Japanese of WWII and modern extremist Muslims. Both cultures believe in the direct trade of lives for arbitrary military gain. Both cultures also lost/are losing wars due to this strategy. Throwing away your best, brightest, and most committed personnel is a tactical and strategic error, all preconcieved notions of "honor" aside.

[Dread Knot]

I think the best arguement against the idea that dropping the atomic bomb on 'test' area to impress the Japanese into surrender was the fact that the Japanese generals dispatched to Hiroshima to inspect the post attack damage actually denied the fact that it was an atomic bomb which had destroyed the city, and cited the claims the Americans had such a weapon as 'propaganda'. Luckily, for the Japanese, the Emperor finally grew a backbone and decided to stand and speak against this militaristic nonsense. Even then some generals attemped a half-hearted kidnapping coup which happily was foiled.

A mindset like that belongs in the dustbin of history.

[Hylander_1314]

I think the best arguement against the idea that dropping the atomic bomb on 'test' area to impress the Japanese into surrender was the fact that the Japanese generals dispatched to Hiroshima to inspect the post attack damage actually denied the fact that it was an atomic bomb which had destroyed the city, and cited the claims the Americans had such a weapon as 'propaganda'. Luckily, for the Japanese, the Emperor finally grew a backbone and decided to stand and speak against this militaristic nonsense. Even then some generals attemped a half-hearted kidnapping coup which happily was foiled.

A mindset like that belongs in the dustbin of history.

As long as the history of that mentality is not forgotten.

[Dread Knot]

Aye. The mentality that would sacrifice a 69,000 battleship and a crew of 2,000 young sailors on a pointless and futile mission is certainly still alive today. :nope:

[Sailor Steve]

Did I read somewhere the Japanese were forced (although it really should be a last resort) to war for economic reasons?In any case, the Japanese's economic hardships were heavily due to their imperialistic ambitions. Just because they went to war for economic reasons doesn't mean those very reasons weren't brought on via another, more sinister plot.
Absolutely correct. The United States was the main source of Japan's oil and steel, and we placed an embargo on them because of their war in China, which had been going on since 1937, and especially because of the 'Rape of Nanking' (now Nanjing), in which somewhere between 150,000 and 300,000 Chinese civilians and Prisoners Of War were executed by Japanese soldiers over a space of six weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

Newer evidence has turned up that the Japanese killed over 500,000 civilians in the months leading up to the Nanjing 'incident'.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/12/content_7236237.htm

The Japanese were going after oil in Malaysia and French Indo-China (Vietnam) and the real point of Pearl Harbor was to keep the US from interfering with those plans.

[groomsie]

Aye. The mentality that would sacrifice a 69,000 battleship and a crew of 2,000 young sailors on a pointless and futile mission is certainly still alive today. :nope:

I have to ask...what exactly are you referring to? I'm assuming the last voyage of the Yamato?

[Aramike]

Good post, Sailor Steve.

I also would like to point out that, despite how devastating it was, the attack on Pearl Harbor was ultimately a failure. While it did strike a major blow to the US fleet, it failed to even touch what became the primary weapons platform of the Pacific War - the aircraft carrier. I do believe that, had the Japanese caught our carriers in port, they would have won the war. Our partial victory at Corel Sea and our complete victory at Midway would have not been able to occur.

[Dread Knot]

Aye. The mentality that would sacrifice a 69,000 battleship and a crew of 2,000 young sailors on a pointless and futile mission is certainly still alive today. :nope:

I have to ask...what exactly are you referring to? I'm assuming the last voyage of the Yamato?

Yes. It's the Yamato. I could have referred to kamikazes in general, but why not the most famous kamikaze mission of them all? ;)