Side discussion on religon from Mumbai thread

[Skybird]

[Thread not started by me, but the mods. Don't hold me responsible for this. It got separated from a thread on religious terrorism, because religious terrorism does seem to have nothing to do with religion anymore, apparently.]

How merciful Allah is.

[caspofungin]

How merciful Allah is.

wtf?

[Skybird]

How merciful Allah is.

wtf?
Indeed.

[caspofungin]

Indeed.

well, it's not a wall of text, so i suppose i should just leave it. :roll:

[Rockstar]

who is like the beast, who is able to defeat him?

it will grow and consume the world

[Skybird]

who is like the beast, who is able to defeat him?

it will grow and consume the world

Be godless - be free. Define god - define his opposite the same moment.

[Iceman]

who is like the beast, who is able to defeat him?

it will grow and consume the world

Be godless - be free. Define god - define his opposite the same moment.
God is Love - Love worketh no ill to its neighbor.
Satan is Hate - Kill,Steal, and Destroy is the sole purpose.

Both are evident still today.

Be godless be free...lol u really crack me up Skybird....be godless be free...

Freedom does not mean free of liability of ones actions...we decide what is right and wrong....

Free Will...ahh what a precious gift from the Creator. :sunny:

Yea shall know a tree by it's fruit....and Skybird....:hmm: ehh nevermind.

It's just a par for the course...all systems normal...fubar..."Time for a Change"...How about...Give Jesus,Peace,Love,Hope,Mercy,Kindness,Forgiveness,L ongsuffering,The ole Straight and Narrow...a try now?...everything else falls short.

Death itself will be swallowed up in Victory as it is the last enemy to be defeated!

Life is Eternal...

[Skybird]

For Iceman, with love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZ-lSn0A3M

[Dowly]

For Iceman, with love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZ-lSn0A3M

:up:

I'm godless and happy this way.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

This is why I'm Vulcan. Disgusting, monstrous behaviour from a disgusting, monstrous group of people.

[Skybird]

This is why I'm Vulcan. Disgusting, monstrous behaviour from a disgusting, monstrous group of people.
Ah! Vulcan, eh? Don't worry, I supress the urgent need to try to stroke them. :lol: Book tip: Diane Duance: "Spock's World". One of the best ST-novels I have ever read back then. Quite some philosophy included, all free.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

This is why I'm Vulcan. Disgusting, monstrous behaviour from a disgusting, monstrous group of people. Ah! Vulcan, eh? Don't worry, I supress the urgent need to try to stroke them. :lol: Book tip: Diane Duance: "Spock's World". One of the best ST-novels I have ever read back then. Quite some philosophy included, all free.

Thanks! I'll check it out :D I'm reading 'Vulcan's Forge' at the moment. Pretty good :up:

[August]

0 to nerd in 14 posts... :D

[Frame57]

Well, what do expect from the "religion of peace"??? The world has had this problem since the 7th century. It is not just an American, Jewish or Christian problem. Anyone that is not Muslim is an infidel and you have two choices according to their "holy book", either convert or die...:nope:

[Morts]

who is like the beast, who is able to defeat him?

it will grow and consume the world

Be godless - be free. Define god - define his opposite the same moment.
God is Love - Love worketh no ill to its neighbor.
Satan is Hate - Kill,Steal, and Destroy is the sole purpose.

Both are evident still today.

Be godless be free...lol u really crack me up Skybird....be godless be free...

Freedom does not mean free of liability of ones actions...we decide what is right and wrong....

Free Will...ahh what a precious gift from the Creator. :sunny:

Yea shall know a tree by it's fruit....and Skybird....:hmm: ehh nevermind.

It's just a par for the course...all systems normal...fubar..."Time for a Change"...How about...Give Jesus,Peace,Love,Hope,Mercy,Kindness,Forgiveness,L ongsuffering,The ole Straight and Narrow...a try now?...everything else falls short.

Death itself will be swallowed up in Victory as it is the last enemy to be defeated!

Life is Eternal...
free will...a gift from....."God":rotfl: :rotfl: man YOU crack ME up:rotfl:
i dont need "God" to be free, to have a will of my own and to be happy
quite the opposite, i dont want the rules that religion bring cause that takes away my freedom
and if it turns out that "God" actually exist...well...i guess i'll just have to burn in hell for having my own opinion and dont want to be held down by religion;) :rotfl:

Ps skybird that was a most excellent video:up:

[Skybird]

Ps skybird that was a most excellent video:up:
Most of Pat's videos are.

[Morts]

Ps skybird that was a most excellent video:up:
Most of Pat's videos are.
Indeed they are:up:

[Dowly]

who is like the beast, who is able to defeat him?

it will grow and consume the world
Be godless - be free. Define god - define his opposite the same moment. God is Love - Love worketh no ill to its neighbor.
Satan is Hate - Kill,Steal, and Destroy is the sole purpose.

Both are evident still today.

Be godless be free...lol u really crack me up Skybird....be godless be free...

Freedom does not mean free of liability of ones actions...we decide what is right and wrong....

Free Will...ahh what a precious gift from the Creator. :sunny:

Yea shall know a tree by it's fruit....and Skybird....:hmm: ehh nevermind.

It's just a par for the course...all systems normal...fubar..."Time for a Change"...How about...Give Jesus,Peace,Love,Hope,Mercy,Kindness,Forgiveness,L ongsuffering,The ole Straight and Narrow...a try now?...everything else falls short.

Death itself will be swallowed up in Victory as it is the last enemy to be defeated!

Life is Eternal... free will...a gift from....."God":rotfl: :rotfl: man YOU crack ME up:rotfl:
i dont need "God" to be free, to have a will of my own and to be happy
quite the opposite, i dont want the rules that religion bring cause that takes away my freedom
and if it turns out that "God" actually exist...well...i guess i'll just have to burn in hell for having my own opinion and dont want to be held down by religion;) :rotfl:

Ps skybird that was a most excellent video:up:

Morts, I've known you for some time over SS & MSN. So I ask you, dont make fun of Iceman, ok? He is obviously very religious man, so let him be and belief to what he wants.

I dont believe in god. IIRC, you dont either Morts. Iceman does. No need to start a fight over beliefs. Heck, I could belief in my fricking finger if I wanted to, that's my business. And, morts, no pun intended, just my take, I've always respected Iceman for some reason.

[Skybird]

What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, Dowly. ;)

[Iceman]

For Iceman, with love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZ-lSn0A3M

O come on ...that guy again huh...I expected better from you than that.

No quote from Fredrick or anything?...this thread was titled...Massacre in Mumbai.

Did not mean for it to derail by commenting on Skybirds infidel type comment lol..

Did we actually learn if it was "Religious" extremists or was it perhaps some other group trying to make a name for itself....or is it same ole song that we hear over and over today and have become desensitized to?

Death, destruction, next victim plz...

No Fear!...guys who do this kinda stuff really rely on age old tactics it seems...the fear of death is powerful indeed.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” (http://www.listphile.com/Yoda_Quotes_with_Video/Fear_is_the_path_to_the_dark_side)

[Onkel Neal]

I've moved this out of the Mumbai thread.

[Skybird]

Now exclude the Star Trek items, please - Vulcans are areligious. :lol: The rest could be thrown together with Rockstar's bible class from today.

[Safe-Keeper]

Morts, I've known you for some time over SS & MSN. So I ask you, dont make fun of Iceman, ok? He is obviously very religious man, so let him be and belief to what he wants.Don't be ridiculous. Iceman makes a post in which he chooses to enter a discussion, saying, among other things, "you crack me up", and we're supposed to just leave him as if he didn't say anything? Just because we happened to be discussing religion? If we were discussing Obama and I jumped in and attacked a McCain voter for opposing Barrack, would you leave me alone if I said that I very strongly supported Obama and wanted my beliefs to be left alone? Of course not.

As for Iceman's post, it sounds to me like an Orwellian "freedom is slavery" mentality - you need an authority watching and judging your every move, 24/7 for every single day of your life... or you're not free. If there's no Great Omnipotent Divine Stasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi), there's no reason to be good.

As has been pointed out by so many on this forum so many times, this is simply incorrect. Take a trip to a democratic country with a strong atheist poulation (Norway, Japan, Canada, et al), and then get back to me. Note how most of the countries on the Top 10 of the HDI are secular and/or have a strong atheist population... and then brag about how great it is to slave under Yahweh.

Well, what do expect from the "religions of peace"??? The world has had this problem since the 7th century. It is not just an American, Jewish or Christian problem. Anyone that is not Muslim is an infidel and you have two choices according to their "holy book", either convert or die...:nope:All three major Abrahamic religions have been incredibly violent over the years, and all have incredibly nasty books they for some reason cling to. You Christians are mostly good people, you really are, but you'd be so much easier to discuss things with if you actually read your Bibles.

[kurtz]

Yes go on read it, or to save you the trouble here's the picture version;

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html

[Rilder]

Paganism 4tw, At least this way I have a chance of being a bastard son of Zeus, Gods know I have his temper and love of Mortal wimminz.

And no, screw you, I'm not getting a blood test.:lol:

[Hylander_1314]

Skybird! You believe not in the Halls of Valhalla?! Where the dead live forever!

[Stealth Hunter]

All of your Gods are inferior to Horus.

http://images.epilogue.net/users/lisahunt/Horus_thesun_AD.jpg

[Stealth Hunter]

Well, what do expect from the "religion of peace"??? The world has had this problem since the 7th century. It is not just an American, Jewish or Christian problem. Anyone that is not Muslim is an infidel and you have two choices according to their "holy book", either convert or die...:nope:

No different in the Christian or Jewish religions.

[Frame57]

Sure Stealth! When is the last time you saw a jew or Christian cut someones head of on Al Jazeera? Honestly, if you believe that comment of yours your IQ must be below 70.

[Stealth Hunter]

Sure Stealth! When is the last time you saw a jew or Christian cut someones head of on Al Jazeera? Honestly, if you believe that comment of yours your IQ must be below 70.

If you think that the wrong-doings of a thousand people constitute the feelings and opinions of 1.3 billion, you've got some serious ****ing problems with math.

And also take note that the Muslims in the 7th century were perfecting the arts and sciences while the Christians were burning heretics and witches. I'll say it again, it was no different to the Christians or Jews. ALL RELIGIONS (except for Buddhism) believe that if you are not following their belief system, you are an infidel...

[Vinay]

Sure Stealth! When is the last time you saw a jew or Christian cut someones head of on Al Jazeera? Honestly, if you believe that comment of yours your IQ must be below 70.
If you think that the wrong-doings of a thousand people constitute the feelings and opinions of 1.3 billion, you've got some serious ****ing problems with math.

And also take note that the Muslims in the 7th century were perfecting the arts and sciences while the Christians were burning heretics and witches. I'll say it again, it was no different to the Christians or Jews. ALL RELIGIONS (except for Buddhism) believe that if you are not following their belief system, you are an infidel...

You got something wrong. All religions are not like that. There are many religions that is against any kind of violence. Buddhism and Jainism is like that. Hinduism and Sikhism has strict moral code of conduct and will not take up arms because others don't belive in your religion. They are supposed to take up arms if someone attacks you. Like if the Jihadis are attacking you because they don't like you, then you have all the right to take up arms and defend yourself to make sure that Truth, justice and righteousness prevails for a peaceful world. Jewism and Christianity has changed a lot and with each passing day these relgions are becoming more and more progressive because the people are not as religious as before and thought process is given a major share rather than religious books. Especially the world also saw the rise of atheism. All this is a sign of progress of humanity.

A lot of changes has taken in the Islamic world as well, but the foundation is not changed and hence Islam is a big problem. The Wahabbis still call the shots in the Islamic world. Until Mecca and Medina are liberated from the hands of the fundamentalists and handed over to the moderates, you will see a violent Islam. Muslims may be. But they were doing it not because Islam said them to do that but their original faiths (the so called pagan faiths were like that like , pre Islamic Egyptian, Zoroastianism etc) The true version of Islam is the Taliban. That is Islam and what you achieve in an truly Islamic state is this

http://www.afghaninjustice.com/TalibanShootWomenInKabul.jpg
http://www.rawa.org/beating5.jpg

[Stealth Hunter]

Sure Stealth! When is the last time you saw a jew or Christian cut someones head of on Al Jazeera? Honestly, if you believe that comment of yours your IQ must be below 70.
If you think that the wrong-doings of a thousand people constitute the feelings and opinions of 1.3 billion, you've got some serious ****ing problems with math.

And also take note that the Muslims in the 7th century were perfecting the arts and sciences while the Christians were burning heretics and witches. I'll say it again, it was no different to the Christians or Jews. ALL RELIGIONS (except for Buddhism) believe that if you are not following their belief system, you are an infidel...

You got something wrong. All religions are not like that. There are many religions that is against any kind of violence. Buddhism and Jainism is like that. Hinduism and Sikhism has strict moral code of conduct and will not take up arms because others don't belive in your religion.

These people sure didn't abide by that code. I wouldn't call burning a "witch" after gagging, beating, and stripping her nonviolent:

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-33828820080530

Of course, this is quite typical in countries that still have these silly superstitions (Kenya, India, Thailand, Ethiopia . . .).

They are supposed to take up arms if someone attacks you.

An Indian woman accused of witchcraft was beaten, gagged and burnt to death in a remote eastern village, police said on Friday.

The woman was dragged out of her home, her hands and legs tied and taken to a crematorium where she was set on fire in front of the village which ignored her screams for help.

Well, so much for that motto.

Like if the Jihadis are attacking you because they don't like you, then you have all the right to take up arms and defend yourself to make sure that Truth, justice and righteousness prevails for a peaceful world. Jewism and Christianity has changed a lot and with each passing day these relgions are becoming more and more progressive because the people are not as religious as before and thought process is given a major share rather than religious books. Especially the world also saw the rise of atheism. All this is a sign of progress of humanity.


As long as there is religion, there is no progress. Someone always tries to take hold of power. No two can ever coexist, because it is inevitable, no matter what beliefs they hold, that one will try to destroy the other.

A lot of changes has taken in the Islamic world as well, but the foundation is not changed and hence Islam is a big problem.

If you had ever read the Qur'an, you would know that it teaches peace, nonviolence, and tolerance to your fellow man. These people who declare Jihads are not true Muslims because the teachings of Muhammad state that anybody who is a non-Muslim is NOT an infidel, they are just lower in the social classes (BUT THEY ARE STILL TO BE TOLERATED).

The foundation of Islam does not need to change; the people do.

Until Mecca and Medina are liberated from the hands of the fundamentalists and handed over to the moderates, you will see a violent Islam. Muslims may be. But they were doing it not because Islam said them to do that but their original faiths (the so called pagan faiths were like that like , pre Islamic Egyptian, Zoroastianism etc) The true version of Islam is the Taliban. That is Islam and what you achieve in an truly Islamic state is this

Until fundamentalism the world over (in every religion) is wiped out, nobody is safe.

The true version of Islam is NOT what the Taliban promotes. Hatred and violence are not supposed to be part of the Muslim manifesto, and for most it isn't. You only hear the bad about it, but what about the good? What about Saladin, who gave away every last coin in his treasury to the poor and sick and needy? What about Dr. Mohammad Mossadeq, who opposed imperialistic views in government and fought long and hard for the freedom of Iranian industry and trade? What about Samuel Rahbar, who discovered a plasma-detecting form of hemoglobin?

Don't get me wrong. I'm an Atheist, and I will remain that way simply because I've seen what religion can do to people when it's misused (and it's not good), but we have to get our facts straight before we start any religion.

[Vinay]

Sure Stealth! When is the last time you saw a jew or Christian cut someones head of on Al Jazeera? Honestly, if you believe that comment of yours your IQ must be below 70.
If you think that the wrong-doings of a thousand people constitute the feelings and opinions of 1.3 billion, you've got some serious ****ing problems with math.

And also take note that the Muslims in the 7th century were perfecting the arts and sciences while the Christians were burning heretics and witches. I'll say it again, it was no different to the Christians or Jews. ALL RELIGIONS (except for Buddhism) believe that if you are not following their belief system, you are an infidel...
You got something wrong. All religions are not like that. There are many religions that is against any kind of violence. Buddhism and Jainism is like that. Hinduism and Sikhism has strict moral code of conduct and will not take up arms because others don't belive in your religion.
These people sure didn't abide by that code. I wouldn't call burning a "witch" after gagging, beating, and stripping her nonviolent:

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-33828820080530

Of course, this is quite typical in countries that still have these silly superstitions (Kenya, India, Thailand, Ethiopia . . .).

They are supposed to take up arms if someone attacks you.
An Indian woman accused of witchcraft was beaten, gagged and burnt to death in a remote eastern village, police said on Friday.

The woman was dragged out of her home, her hands and legs tied and taken to a crematorium where she was set on fire in front of the village which ignored her screams for help.

Well, so much for that motto.

Like if the Jihadis are attacking you because they don't like you, then you have all the right to take up arms and defend yourself to make sure that Truth, justice and righteousness prevails for a peaceful world. Jewism and Christianity has changed a lot and with each passing day these relgions are becoming more and more progressive because the people are not as religious as before and thought process is given a major share rather than religious books. Especially the world also saw the rise of atheism. All this is a sign of progress of humanity.

As long as there is religion, there is no progress. Someone always tries to take hold of power. No two can ever coexist, because it is inevitable, no matter what beliefs they hold, that one will try to destroy the other.

A lot of changes has taken in the Islamic world as well, but the foundation is not changed and hence Islam is a big problem.
If you had ever read the Qur'an, you would know that it teaches peace, nonviolence, and tolerance to your fellow man. These people who declare Jihads are not true Muslims because the teachings of Muhammad state that anybody who is a non-Muslim is NOT an infidel, they are just lower in the social classes (BUT THEY ARE STILL TO BE TOLERATED).

The foundation of Islam does not need to change; the people do.

Until Mecca and Medina are liberated from the hands of the fundamentalists and handed over to the moderates, you will see a violent Islam. Muslims may be. But they were doing it not because Islam said them to do that but their original faiths (the so called pagan faiths were like that like , pre Islamic Egyptian, Zoroastianism etc) The true version of Islam is the Taliban. That is Islam and what you achieve in an truly Islamic state is this
Until fundamentalism the world over (in every religion) is wiped out, nobody is safe.

The true version of Islam is NOT what the Taliban promotes. Hatred and violence are not supposed to be part of the Muslim manifesto, and for most it isn't. You only hear the bad about it, but what about the good? What about Saladin, who gave away every last coin in his treasury to the poor and sick and needy? What about Dr. Mohammad Mossadeq, who opposed imperialistic views in government and fought long and hard for the freedom of Iranian industry and trade? What about Samuel Rahbar, who discovered a plasma-detecting form of hemoglobin?

Don't get me wrong. I'm an Atheist, and I will remain that way simply because I've seen what religion can do to people when it's misused (and it's not good), but we have to get our facts straight before we start any religion.
The Hindu scriptures never explains about witches. Witches is non existent in Hinduism. On what basis are you trying to link Hinduism to witchcraft. It's ignorance.

It's an absurd thought that only Atheism leads to progress. Like atheism, certain religion can co-exist with Atheism like other than the religions consider itself to be the only way (which leads to fundamentalism) and the religions that requires only itself to survive by eliminating others (Islam). Coexistence of religion, you can look at India and see. Even Jewism thrived here. The Zoroastarians must have become extinct in Persia but you can see them in India. Hence religions can co-exist. There is no need to destroy the other, if the other is not violent and don't wants you out. Fundamentalism and violence out of religion will lead to peace.

The true version of Islam is what the Taliban propogates. But should we consider it as true is the question? It's violent. Any Muslim can live a moderate life without showing hatred towards the other. But once they start to belive in the Quran word by word, they become Taliban and anti-Human. Don't link scientific inventions, progressive thinking with Islam. It's against Islamic Quran. If Muslims have done it good. It's progressive. I wish they also come up with a Quran that is progressive insted of asking people to be killed because they don't belive in Allah.

[Vinay]

Muhammad state that anybody who is a non-Muslim is NOT an infidel, they are just lower in the social classes (BUT THEY ARE STILL TO BE TOLERATED).

This is purely racial and hatred. It talks about someone is below someone just because he don't belive in Allah. This is the problem. Why is human beings not equal. If there is god, then Everyone is equal in front of him/her/something irrespective of any difference including gender.

All religions must accpet these rules. Else it will not be called as religion whereas as a violent ideology against humanity.

[Vinay]

Stealth hunter, what I had observed is that especially the Atheist from the western nations tend to support Islam for some unknown reason. The reason may be they want to be seen seperate from Christianity and want to show that they are more progressive and accomodative. My question is should that means Atheists must also embrace violent ideology that atheism opposes. Islamic ideas are stictly against Atheism. No wonder you see Pat can be seen making videos after videos and posting it to explain his viewpoint. It's true that Islam is very violent for centuries. Just because there were some Muslims who were good human beings will not make the ideology of Islam good. It will remain as it is for ever until there is a change to make it progressive by Muslims themselves by moderating the Quran and making it a modern book rather than something meant for violent, ignorant nomads. For your information, I am an Atheist Indian. A non-beliver of god.

[Vinay]

Also understand that a ordinary moderate Muslim is not an issue for anyone. Those who call god. Do prayers and live his life without troubling others is not a problem for anyone on this earth. The trouble starts when there is discrimination, hatred, killings because god don't like others. This is the root of all problems and if the source of this is the Quran, then it surely need to be moderated.

[Skybird]

I agree that all three desert relgions have violant roots, whcih maybe is no surprise since they all in the end base on Judaism and it'S revenging, tyrannic emperor-god. It took the Jews centuries to find a way to bypass this cruel concepot of god and to turn it into something more humane: by developing a very hairsplitting, highly clever way of finding excuses and "bypasses" that allows them to see the god they believe in to be depicted not as the tyrannic psychopath that indeed he is, but to describe him as more reasonbale, friendly and humane. This is what could be seen as the reason for why Jewish thinking already had the reputation to be so very clever and hairsplitting even already at the age of the roman empire. The Christian religion could be seen as a reformation of the ancient Jewish system, and true Christian religion - not the church but the followers of Jesus who were called "Christ" (thus the term "Christian") - moved the foucs from the ancient old desert god onto the teachings of Jesus, who was building on the old terminolgy, but filled it with a complete different understanding - the devine depicted by him in the four gospels is another picture of a god than the tyrannic god in the old testament. Islam, however, has not seen traditions that would compare to these chnages in Judaism and Christoian relgion, at leats not efforts that were strong enough to really influence the dogmatic view of the traditionalists - and survived that. Islam has been - and is until today! - as ruthless as was the Catholic church in hunting down heretics and preventing different thinlking in the medieval, and it has been far more successful, while the church more or less had to give up. Where modern Judaism and christianity (extremist and fundamentalist sects excluded, of course) have moved on and chnaged, Islam still is stuck in the ohase that compoares to the old testament, or the old Judaic tyrannic emperor-god - it has not seen the kind of reforming and correction as has been seen in ther two older religions.

A consequence of this is where I must reject something that Stealth Hunter said: while the Islamic world of the medieval indeed was superior to the more primitive Europe in science and medicine, with the arrival of the Muhammedan dogma it slowed down and then stopped to develope, falling into stagnation, while after long fights, europe raised and developed a blossomiung culture that finally reached the status of knowledge in the arbaian sphere, and then went beyond it and left it behind by a wide margin. This was only possible because the old dogmas of religion broke up and did not stick eternally with the old tyrannic desert god, but formed a tradition that is more open and humane in thinking, than Islam is. It even overcame the once unshakable power position of the church. But in the medieval, by comparing the status in europe and the Arab peninsula, the latter had the by far better starting conditions. But under theb influence of relgious powers and the fialing or successful fight against them, the one sphere switched off, while the other switched on and started to outshine the first in scientific and cultural developement.

Now that the West seem to have gone beyond its climax, and achievements are so excessively pushed that they start to pervert into their extremes where they do more bad than good anymore, the old unmoved desert dogma in form of islam grows in relative strength again, not by being strong in itself, but becaseu the West becomes weaker again. Even the old church is smelling a chance to lead back to growing reestablishment of it's old dogma of "obedience to the church over spirituality and freedom", and it almost cooperates with islam by opening it doors and ways, to change the cultural climate in favour of people submitting first to Islam's and then to the church's dogmatic ways of living again. People are getting influenced to embrace a deeply totalitarian ideology and mistaking it for freedom and peace, ebcasue this foisters an atmosphere were the church hopes to become strong again by spreading its own dogmatic sermon again: obedience to the church, power to the church. In earlier years, I fought against Islam. I today understood, that the dmeographic facts created by mass migration are here to stay and thus, Islam cannot be chased away anymore, it is here to stay, so ourt only chnace is to fight not only against Islam, but relgion and its vicous ways in general, to force all relgions there are back into their houses and buiodling and deny them - Chriostianity as well as judaism as well as islam - any option to influence public life to change our culture again towards its ancient old desert dogmas beyond which we have grown since then so very far.

Freedom is our most precious good, and no religion's dogma shall be given claim or right to reduce it for it's own powerpolitical interest. Only when freedom is taken away from us, many of us who are used to live in a free world and never experienced how it is to live without freedom, will realise what it is that they have lost - but then they will not have the freedom anymore to change it: then it will be too late. So fight to defend your freedoms while you still can. Do not fall back in the face of religions, do not accept their claims and demands, do not give them the respect they call for but which they did not earn and do not deserve. No religion of these is about your wellbeing, but the wellbeing of it's dogma and powerpolitical self-interest. If you are afraid of conflict and thus step back from the challenge - you already have given up freedom and thus become slaves, rightfully. Do not be afraid of conflict, but accept it and fully embrace it if religion is confronting you and your freedom. Our ancestors have suffered for centuries, miserably, to make possible the freedom we now have in the western world - do not throw it away, do not carelessly give it up, do not ignore its value in favour of being called nice and friendly by religion. When religion calls you nice and friendly and tells you it likes you, you should feel dirty and unclean - like religion itself is.

Religious threads at subsim, may it be bible classes or atheist rants - it's so good to have them, don't you agree. :smug:

[Vinay]

Skybird! You believe not in the Halls of Valhalla?! Where the dead live forever!
What about the modern version of it with the 72. He may not be able to handle the 72. So request the rest be parcelled to me.

[Hitman]

I agree that all three desert relgions have violant roots, whcih maybe is no surprise since they all in the end base on Judaism and it'S revenging, tyrannic emperor-god. It took the Jews centuries to find a way to bypass this cruel concepot of god and to turn it into something more humane: by developing a very hairsplitting, highly clever way of finding excuses and "bypasses" that allows them to see the god they believe in to be depicted not as the tyrannic psychopath that indeed he is, but to describe him as more reasonbale, friendly and humane. This is what could be seen as the reason for why Jewish thinking already had the reputation to be so very clever and hairsplitting even already at the age of the roman empire.

Someone said long ago something I agree completely with: "Judaism is the most brilliant defence ever done of something impossible to be morally and rationally defended" :lol:

I don't want to offend anyone, and I respect that anyone is free to believe in what they want; but simply making an objective lecture of the Bible or Quran shows very well that they are religions based on a certain political/social situation in that time, and destined to provide social control. The idea of the chosen nation, and of the terrible God who kills and tortures their enemies and sometimes his own "chosen nation" for its lack of faith is to my eyes simply impossible to sustain. Not to mention the "revelations" that Muhammad received, many of which are contradictory with earlier ones and whose sense and logics dissapeared long ago when society evolved.

But anyway, my main critic to any of those religions remains: They are "revealed" religions, i.e. God told them to the humans. And that is a self-contradiction. A religion is per definition something supposedly valid for any time and any place in the world, yet the revelation happens in a certain place and moment. What happened for all the rest of the world after Muhammad or Moses received their revelations? What happened in China? In Australia? Nothing. The universal and intemporal message of God .... was limited in time and space, and still is. What a contradiction :roll:

[Skybird]

Someone said long ago something I agree completely with: "Judaism is the most brilliant defence ever done of something impossible to be morally and rationally defended" :lol:
Candy! Sweet! Brilliant...!

[Stealth Hunter]

I find the prospect of Yahweh having a wife to be quite funny:

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/18/1679514.aspx

Judaism, in it's true form, is not a monotheistic religion.:rotfl:

[baggygreen]

I reckon the egyptians had the right idea, their gods only lasted on average 30 or 40 years, and if you didnt like him they just killed thir god and got a new one!:p

On a more serious note tho, interesting that Ahkenaten mandated that the many gods be ignored and only 1 god, Ra, be acknowledged. Monotheism several thousand years before it was the 'in thing'. fascinating.

[Frame57]

Sure Stealth! When is the last time you saw a jew or Christian cut someones head of on Al Jazeera? Honestly, if you believe that comment of yours your IQ must be below 70.

If you think that the wrong-doings of a thousand people constitute the feelings and opinions of 1.3 billion, you've got some serious ****ing problems with math.

And also take note that the Muslims in the 7th century were perfecting the arts and sciences while the Christians were burning heretics and witches. I'll say it again, it was no different to the Christians or Jews. ALL RELIGIONS (except for Buddhism) believe that if you are not following their belief system, you are an infidel...I make no excuses for the (Roman Catholics) and what they did in the crusades and Inquisitions. Guilty as charged! But you must read your history with regards to the sultans and the havoc they raised in the same time period, but the difference is, is that they have not reformed and continue their fanatical views on the world in our day and time. there is no comparison to what the muslim extremist are doing in Indonesia and Africa today. Not to mention the more news worthy acts of terrorism that we hear of.

[caspofungin]

another religion thread. F*cking brilliant.

tell you all what, why don't we all save our keyboards a few hundred hits and just dredge up one of the old threads and repost it, because there's nothing new in this one.

1. we are all, with respect to religions other than our own, arguing from a position of ignorance. there's no way i know as much about christianity as frame57. there's no way skybird knows as much about islam as konovalev (or myself). so on, and so forth.

you can read it, you can watch it, but that's not the same as living it.

2. we are all making assumptions based on what we see on tv or have read, which can no way be extrapolated to represent the millions of muslims, christians, hindus, jews, etc. (including atheists) who, i sincerely hope, for the most part wish to live their lives in peace.

3. posts consist of demagoguery, misquotations, fallacious arguments, and poor logic, for the most part.

finally, and most importantly,

4. posting these assumptions and refuting them serves no purpose, because no one ever changes their mind here.

i'm as guilty of feeding the flames as the next guy, i'm just saying don't we all have something more constructive to fdo?

[baggygreen]

another religion thread. ****ing brilliant.And yet you chose to post in it and in so doing, cause it to rise again right to the top of the first page...:shifty:

sorry couldnt resist :p

[Skybird]

Thread not started by me, but the mods. Don't hold me responsible for this. It got separated from a thread on religious terrorism, because religious terrorism does seem to have nothing to do with religion anymore, apparently.

[Stealth Hunter]

another religion thread. ****ing brilliant.

Maybe I'll make another one, in addition to Rockstar's "Book of Daniel" thread.

[caspofungin]

And yet you chose to post in it and in so doing, cause it to rise again right to the top of the first page

my weakness puts food on the table of religious leaders everywhere :D

[baggygreen]

And yet you chose to post in it and in so doing, cause it to rise again right to the top of the first page

my weakness puts food on the table of religious leaders everywhere :D:rotfl:

[Stealth Hunter]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7758651.stm

:up:

[Skybird]

I'd prefer Muslims to stop "militants" from acting in Islam's name, and topple religious authorities and governments fostering them. After the deed is done, words are cheap. but point them at the passages where the Quran demands the killing of infidels and the discrimination of Jews and Christians, and they feel offended and say they cannot act against their fellow muslims.

I don't give a penny anymore for what Islamic communities say about Islamic terror. They are not about preventing it - they are about their perverse idea of what is their "honour" and how it is to be respected, this precious "honour", and how their "honour" is not to get offended, and that it is to be seen as so very important and unique.

Accept getting attacked by Islamic activists, but do not point finger at Islam - that is all it is about. Spit.

when they delete major components of Quran that makes Quran an unforgiving, totalitarian enemy of all non-Islamic mankind, when they hand over "radicals" from their middle all by themselves, and crush the tyrants and the religious autocrats representing them, and start inviting foreign cultures to islamic countries and build as many temples and culture centres for them as mosques are build in christian europe, and when they brake the power of Muslim countries massively financing Islamic terrorism and assisting the Islamic hijacking of the Western societies, countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lybia - then we can talk again about re-evaluation of relations and to what degree we should start to respect our former enemy.

But not one day earlier. The magic word is "reciprocity". And the West leads by over 40 years of prior concessions that are more or less completely - unanswered. Colourful words only, and symbolic acts - are cheap only, and cost nothing.

[Nicolas]

Hello :D
Oh a Crhistian here! :rock:
Everyone that commits sins are slaves of the sin, who can deny that, you can bury the sin but its still there, waiting to show up, you will be free only if Someone sets you free, Someone paid the price of your sins. Shame so many people are wasting the grace of God :damn:

[Stealth Hunter]

Oh dammit. Not more preaching, PLEASE.:x

[Skybird]

Oh dammit. Not more preaching, PLEASE.:xWhat he says. :shifty: Keep thy religion to thyself.

[August]

Ignore the athiests. A little preaching is not out of place in a thread discussing religion.

[Stealth Hunter]

:rotfl:

It's quite out of place in a thread discussing the problems with religion.

Edit:

Sky, you'll be happy to hear this (I know I was):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE

[XabbaRus]

Thread not started by me, but the mods. Don't hold me responsible for this. It got separated from a thread on religious terrorism, because religious terrorism does seem to have nothing to do with religion anymore, apparently.

Whether it got split by the mods or not you did in fact start it.


:yawn

[Skybird]

Thread not started by me, but the mods. Don't hold me responsible for this. It got separated from a thread on religious terrorism, because religious terrorism does seem to have nothing to do with religion anymore, apparently.

Whether it got split by the mods or not you did in fact start it.


:yawn
Nonsens, as long as an act of religious terror is not forbidden to be named as an act of religiously motivated terror, which indeed I did, in a sarcastic manner.

I did not and have not for over a year started any thread on relgion and atheist disucssions. check my profile and list of started threads if you don'T belioeve it. I just posted it two weeks ago, but you can find it yourself.

What did you think the mumbai attacks, carried out by Muslim terrorists educated and trained in Pakistani Quran schools, were about? A form of violant protest against the high level of unemployment?

Get real, Xabba. identifying the attackers to be acting on the basis of the relgion they claim, does not mean to launch a theological debate. If you want that, take Rockstar's bible class as an example of how to do that. but if you think islak,imc terrorism has nothing to do with religion and islam, then you make a very big mistake.

[Skybird]

:rotfl:

It's quite out of place in a thread discussing the problems with religion.

Edit:

Sky, you'll be happy to hear this (I know I was):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE

:up: healthy reason by the man. religious motivation understood that way i have no problem with.

The video is only an excerpt, I knew the full speech before, you can find it here:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/

[kurtz]

Hello :D
Oh a Crhistian here! :rock:
Everyone that commits sins are slaves of the sin, who can deny that, you can bury the sin but its still there, waiting to show up, you will be free only if Someone sets you free, Someone paid the price of your sins. Shame so many people are wasting the grace of God :damn:
What's this? Someone paid the price of my sins before I committed them? Did they pay the full whack or slightly over? If it was over does that mean I've got a bit of sinning I can do?
This was a thread about how religion leads to terrorism and this post is plain weird, and TBH is symptomatic of the thinking which makes these people think they have the god given right to dictate to others what they should think. When of course what you should think is...

[August]

:rotfl:

It's quite out of place in a thread discussing the problems with religion.

Edit:

Sky, you'll be happy to hear this (I know I was):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE

Aww c'mon Jesus still loves you even if you are headed straight to hell... :up:

[Stealth Hunter]

I know, lol.

I've always found that concept amusing: that if you break any of god's laws, he'll send you to a terrible place with smoke and fire and brimstone, where you'll be tortured forever and ever and ever, but he STILL LOVES YOU.:lol:

Given all the people who are Atheist though (like Karl Popper, Francis Crick, and Stephen Pinker to name a few), Hell would be my Heaven.

[Morts]

yeah, God loves us humans...thats why he banished the 2 first he created

i like to put it this way "rather rule in hell, than be a slave in heaven" --Henning Brøndum.
i know that in hell i will be with people like me (atheists) so i havent got anything to fear if it turns out to be true

[Stealth Hunter]

That idea doesn't bother me in the least. I was merely saying that if god did exist, and he did send me to Hell, then I'd be happy.

[August]

There's no such thing as hell for an atheist, you've got to accept the fact that once you're dead your body will rot and feed the earth, and get over it :smug:

Well duh. :roll:

[August]

There's no such thing as hell for an atheist, you've got to accept the fact that once you're dead your body will rot and feed the earth, and get over it :smug:
Well duh. :roll:
Brain and its creations included of course :D

Is the spirit included in that, or do you feel that atheists don't have souls? :D

[Stealth Hunter]

Spirits as in you can come back as a ghost? No. I personally stopped believing in ghosts when I was 6. Soul and consciousness included in the spirit.

[Stealth Hunter]

Agreed. We have something better: the ability to think.

[August]

Agreed. We have something better: the ability to think.

Your ability to think is only matched by your modesty...

[Sea Demon]

I know, lol.

I've always found that concept amusing: that if you break any of god's laws, he'll send you to a terrible place with smoke and fire and brimstone, where you'll be tortured forever and ever and ever, but he STILL LOVES YOU.:lol:



God doesn't send you to hell. You send your own soul away from the presence of God through the staining of your own soul.

Agreed. We have something better: the ability to think.

Only atheists think?!? What a remarkably stupid thing to allude to. That is a view wrought with no thought at all. I'll bet my academic credentials (which took an enormous amount of thought to get) trumps yours by a mile. With your arrogant perceptions....it doesn't look as though you are capable of any type of intellectual thoughts at all.

[Stealth Hunter]

God doesn't send you to hell. You send your own soul away from the presence of God through the staining of your own soul.

More preaching...:roll:

Only atheists think?!?

Did I say ONLY Atheists think? No, but true religious followers are more limited on what they are allowed to think. Well, most anyway. I mean, the majority say that you can't think anything to forsake god; you get the idea. We're not as limited. That was what I was getting at.

What a remarkably stupid thing to allude to.

Jump to conclusions, why don't you.

I'll bet my academic credentials (which took an enormous amount of thought to get) trumps yours by a mile. With your arrogant perceptions....it doesn't look as though you are capable of any type of intellectual thoughts at all.

That's a bit hypocritical. I mean, saying that your academic credentials are probably better than mine. That's arrogance, isn't it?

[Skybird]

:dead: and on and on and on and on it goes...

Take your gods and deities and shove them. I don't want to hear what sexual techniques you are using on your girlfriends and wives, I do not wish to need listening to your reports whether or not you spend time sticking your fingers into your noses (or elsewhere), and I do not wish to need listening to your crackpot pseudo-philosophic preachings on how great you consider your theoretic construction of your god is, and how superior and right and good and correct and [fill in as desired] he/she/it is. I have a right to be left free from your religions, and not needing to take note of it at any opportunity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEy_PWmzxoY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8xQ6JRe2po&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M114bK4qaiM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BaGHKe5oi0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1czXvHSjDac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzladhscMQ

[Thomen]

I have a right to be left free from your religions, and not needing to take note of it at any opportunity.

Do you? Sorry does not work that way on the internet. By posting and participating in threads like that you open yourself to input that you do not want. Ignore it, that is all you can do. But you have no rights, except to ignore, in here. Sorry.. ;)

Oh and, IF you should have the right to be left free of other peoples believes, don't you think they have the right to be left free of your (non)believes? :up:

Just saying... ;)

[Skybird]

By posting and participating in threads like that you open yourself to input that you do not want.

For the very tired people around, and due to the high demand, now for the third or fourth time:

[Thread not started by me, but the mods. Don't hold me responsible for this. It got separated from a thread on religious terrorism, because religious terrorism does seem to have nothing to do with religion anymore, apparently.]

[Thomen]

By posting and participating in threads like that you open yourself to input that you do not want.
For the very tired people around, and due to the high demand, now for the third or fourth time:

[Thread not started by me, but the mods. Don't hold me responsible for this. It got separated from a thread on religious terrorism, because religious terrorism does seem to have nothing to do with religion anymore, apparently.]

Does not matter. I never said you started it. ;)

[Nicolas]

Im sorry if i created so much turbulence...
but:arrgh!:

So, having so many witnesses, lets leave the sin behind, and run with patience the career ahead, to the price, the crown that Jesus will give us.

If something you may want to try in your life... Is Jesus, what you loss on trying? you will be not dissapointed if you trust Him. Search i you will find, knock the door and it will be opened, call and...

I have this on bulletins i received by mail, maybe it becomes useful some day:
"To make that decision today, call us at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, toll free, at 877-2GRAHAM. Or click billygraham.org (mhtml:{D9B967C1-037D-4DE6-8F90-961884F6AE67}mid://00000002/!x-usc:http://links.mkt1529.com/ctt?kn=12&m=30632928&r=MTM3MzcwMTgxMAS2&b=0&j=NDM1Mjc3MzYS1&mt=1&rt=0). "*

Sorry the bad english spelling.

*This is not advertising, i see all kind of links above of a lot of things, i do not work for the Billy Graham Association. I do not post this for profit.

[kurtz]

Im sorry if i created so much turbulence...
but:arrgh!:

So, having so many witnesses, lets leave the sin behind, and run with patience the career ahead, to the price, the crown that Jesus will give us.

If something you may want to try in your life... Is Jesus, what you loss on trying? you will be not dissapointed if you trust Him. Search i you will find, knock the door and it will be opened, call and...

I have this on bulletins i received by mail, maybe it becomes useful some day:
"To make that decision today, call us at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, toll free, at 877-2GRAHAM. Or click billygraham.org (mhtml:%7BD9B967C1-037D-4DE6-8F90-961884F6AE67%7Dmid://00000002/%21x-usc:http://links.mkt1529.com/ctt?kn=12&m=30632928&r=MTM3MzcwMTgxMAS2&b=0&j=NDM1Mjc3MzYS1&mt=1&rt=0). "*

Sorry the bad english spelling.

*This is not advertising, i see all kind of links above of a lot of things, i do not work for the Billy Graham Association. I do not post this for profit.

Not material profit, I imagine your trying to ingratiate yourself with Jesus, though :D

[Frame57]

There's no such thing as hell for an atheist, you've got to accept the fact that once you're dead your body will rot and feed the earth, and get over it :smug:Hell is not biblical and it is because of gross translational errors. As is the idea of immediate life after death. The basis for Christian theology stems from Judaism and its belief system professes that the dead are dead until the resurrections.

[Stealth Hunter]

There's no such thing as hell for an atheist, you've got to accept the fact that once you're dead your body will rot and feed the earth, and get over it :smug:Hell is not biblical and it is because of gross translational errors. As is the idea of immediate life after death. The basis for Christian theology stems from Judaism and its belief system professes that the dead are dead until the resurrections.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400

Hell according to both the Jewish and Christian doctrines exists. It's right there, clear as crystal. You will go to Hell as far as the Christians are concerned if you reject Christ or sin.

Now unless you can give a valid and unbiased source that claims Hell doesn't exist but is only thought to because of "translation errors", then back down.

The Christian and Jewish theologies are still very different, Frame. The Christians follow the New Testament more closely than the Jews who follow the Old Testament. They do believe in some of the ideas in each book, but they still have conflicting views over issues. Take Jesus, for instance. While the Christians believe that Jesus was God's son, the Jews think he was simply a powerful man who was backed by God.

[Frame57]

Dunno about backing down... But the the greek word used for hell in most reference is the word hades and it simply means "grave". I know of no Jewish person that believes in the christian version of hell. The view of hell comes from the greeks by and large and has been exploited into the doctrine by Dantes Inferno and other works. The Jews believe in the resurrections and appointed judgements to follow there after. They also believe in paradise being restored here on this earth and not in some ethereal place upon which the Messiah will establish and rule under a restored Davidic throne ruling from Jerusalem. Paul who was a Pharisee once also wrote extensively on this in the NT as well and i can find no contradiction in what he wrote that coincides with his doctrinal heritage.

[Frame57]

Reference: The Doctrine of eternal punishment, by Thomas B. Thayer 1871