Book of Daniel

[Rockstar]

I have on occasion taught a class on endtime prophecy. It's usually on short notice and many don't have time to absorb what's said. So before I leave I print out this recap. It pretty much covers the big picture regarding the image in Nebuchad-nezzer dream in Chapter two. Chapter 2 being the one that starts people down the popular Roman endtime theory however after my class is over most reconsider. ;)

Firstly, thank you for allowing me to discuss the book of Daniel with you. I want to briefly clarify a few points I spoke about last Sunday.

When we read Daniel chapter 2 we discovered a great deal was written of mans inability, including Daniel, to tell the king the information he demanded to know. Daniel asked for a stay of execution so that he and his companions may inquire of God for an answer. The dream and interpretation were revealed to Daniel in a night vision. Daniel was able to explain both the dream and the interpretation with the information revealed to him directly from the God of Heaven. So when we read of men’s vain attempts to interpret the dreams and visions in this book, let it be known an answer has already been given by God Himself nothing has been left to our hearts imagination.

So, rather than add to Gods interpretation be content with what He has shown us, it is sufficient. When we read what He has described and interpreted for us we should find ourselves drawn to the fourth kingdom as it was given the greatest detail and is yet to be fulfilled. From God’s interpretation of the image we’re able to discern at least two things about the 4th kingdom.


Its nature; it will have the strength of iron, yet be fragile and divided. “And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” (Daniel 2: 40-43)
The time of its existence, being when Messiah returns. “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” (Daniel 2: 44)Many have construed the word “divided” to mean an arithmetical division of the fourth kingdom. But simple math dogmatically proves one part being equally divided leave us with two parts, let me remind you God specifically numbered them 1 thru 4, knowing this we should be compelled to look elsewhere for an answer. Thankfully, we have scriptural support that best describes what a divided kingdom.

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: (Mathew 12:25).

We find similar examples concerning ‘divided kingdoms’ in Mathew 12:26, 27, 35; Mark 3:24, 25, 26 and Luke 11:17, 18; 12:52. Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines division of this nature as one of disunion; discord; variance; difference. Unless there is in the kingdom like minded people it will invariably come to an end and be destroyed.


I have been taught also by some the 4th kingdom is Rome. But there is nothing in scripture to indicate this. Simply put the Roman Empire no longer exists, it is a thing of the past and scripturally we are told a divided kingdom, as the 4th kingdom is described, does not return but rather it is brought to desolation. Furthermore God never names the 4th kingdom so the question must be asked, “By whose authority do those who give it a Roman name add to what God Himself has already interpreted?” That question alone should, again, cause us to look to scripture for an answer and not a commentary. In later chapters of Daniel 11, Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 16:12 we can pretty much pin point this location. I contend in chapter two some insight is gained into the general location of the 4th kingdom, by the very thoughts king Nebuchad-nezzer had on his mind before he went to bed.

We should be aware, King Nebuchad-nezzar had been given a kingdom and dominion.

And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down. (Daniel 5:19)

He was also chock full of pride.

The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? (Daniel 4:30)

Though the exact wording of the question the king had on his mind before he went to bed is unknown, we know there was no other kingdom on earth greater than his and according to him it was he who had built it.

As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. (Daniel 2:29)

What king with so great a kingdom, and so full of pride would not think to ask the question what will happen after I am gone. Particularly what will become of the kingdom “I have built”? Nebuchad-nezzer’s kingdom was Babylon (head; 1st) also known as the land of the Chaldeans (Ezekiel 12:13), it was then given over to the Madai-Persian king (breast & arms; 2nd), later to a Grecian king (belly & thighs; 3rd), and finally the fourth kingdom (legs & feet) spoken of will come to occupy the land of the Chaldean’s.

All of these kingdoms possessed the old Babylonian kingdom of Nebuchad-nezzar. Thus I believe we have a clue the 4th kingdom will have a central presence in the Middle East. Not in Europe as has been the predominant teaching until now.

There also seemed to be an issue regarding when God establishes His Kingdom on earth and rules from the Throne of David. To help clarify the time frame of when this happens, it comes after what is known as ‘Daniels 70th week’ or ‘the last week in Daniel’ during which time the 4th kingdom reigns. To keep it short and much to the point, from the time the order went out to rebuild Jerusalem, to when it was restored is 7 weeks (49 years). From the time Jerusalem was restored to Messiah the Prince (when Jerusalem rejected Christ) is 62 weeks (434 years) for a grand total of 69 weeks (7+ 62=69 weeks). Now it appears the great clock has stopped as the 70th week has yet to arrive. I contend the gap in time between the 69th and 70th week is Gods patience made manifest.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Peter 3:9).

The 70th week (7 years) will start the day Anti-Christ (a.k.a. The King of the North, Abaddon, and Desolator) makes a covenant with many, and so the clock begins again. This covenant will last 1260 days (3.5 years) during which time it is thought the Temple will be rebuilt and they will cry peace and safety, peace and safety! But in the middle of the week the king of the north breaks the covenant. Causes sacrifice and oblation to cease and the overspreading abomination of desolation thus beginning Great Tribulation lasting for an additional 1260 days after which the 70th week ends.

Reading from Mathew 24:29 we find certain events happening immediately after the tribulation, we see God pouring out His wrath and then His second coming of which the exact day or hour is unknown. After this will the reign of the Gentile kingdoms come to an end, never to trodden down Jerusalem again, for the God of Israel will have established His Kingdom which will last forever.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:14)


I could go on ironing out the timeline of these events and I’d be happy to do so at a later date, in essence I want to show people where to look so that they will not be caught unawares. We need to be “Semper Gumby” (always flexible) for if we look too long in one place it will cause us to become complacent, stiff and lowers our guard. We have been commanded to be watchful; being watchful is an activity, an action which requires more than standing around waiting for something to happen.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

[Dowly]

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

TBH, this was the only think I read. 'Therefore let us not sleep, as do others'; Well, that's my plan, it's 5am here. But this I didnt agree to; "But let us watch and be SOBER'. <-- NONSENSE!!

[Rockstar]

nighty nite Dowly :D

[Iceman]

Amen...God is no respector of persons...

What I tell you, I tell all my servants...watch.

GJ Rock:up:

[kurtz]

erm..okay.

Backs quietly out of the topic.:o

[Skybird]

"Hey Pat, guess what they have - more scripture...!" :lol:

[Morts]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Onkel Neal]

Let's not be rude, folks. No one is forcing you to read this thread.

[Rockstar]

Oh I don't mind the way I see it I'm in no position to take it personally, their arguement is not against me.

[Safe-Keeper]

I've never understood doomsday religions. Really. If you're so eager for it all to end, join the Army and go put your life on the line.

As for the End Times, let me give the word to Jesus Himself (http://thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_end_of_the_world/mk13_01.html):And the disciples asked him, 'Tell us, when is this going to happen?'.

I tell you the truth: this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

I tell you the truth: some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus' generation is long gone and He presently is two thousand years overdue. You've been stood up. Now get on with your lives.

[DeepIron]

Jesus' generation is long gone and He presently is two thousand years overdue. You've been stood up. Now get on with your lives.

Matthew quotes Jesus as saying in Matthew 24:36: "But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only."

So, it stands to reason that if Jesus didn't know when He would return, which would after the Great Tribulation in the End Times, He couldn't have meant the generation that existed when He ministered in Judea and before His crucifiction.

Cheers!

[Rockstar]

The generation Yeshua spoke of is the generation that will be here when 'it' starts. It I believe is the beginning of sorrows which I tend to think is starting or we have been in for a short time now. In otherwords we may very well be that generation.

[DeepIron]

The generation Yeshua spoke of is the generation that will be here when 'it' starts. It I believe is the beginning of sorrows which I tend to think is starting or we have been in for a short time now. In otherwords we may very well be that generation.I believe that's the most common interpretation...

However, one must realize that interpreting Biblical Scripture to ascertain the beginnings of the events in the Book of Revelations is rather futile. As quoted before in Matthew, even God's Son was not privy to the information. For instance:

Matthew 24:6-7; "And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places."

Sounds a lot like today, does it not? But then again, how many times has this same set of scenarios been played out since the Resurrection? Many, many times. And I'm sure that those times were thought to be the starting of the End Times too.

No, attempting to divine Scripture to "nail down" the time is not possible. Instead, we are exhorted to remain faithful and alert... Remember the parable of the 10 Virgins and the Lamps...

Matthew 25:1-13

"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!' Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for ourselves.' And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

[Skybird]

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/628/259007232328183fdmva6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[DeepIron]

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/628/259007232328183fdmva6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)And your point is what exactly? This a wonderful example of why it's simply not possible to even have a discussion concerning these things... No one is trying to convert you, you're not forced to participate and if the subject is offensive to you, do us all a favor and pass it by. Neal doesn't seem to have an issue with it, why should you?

[baggygreen]

I'm gonna have to come back when im not so hung over...:doh:

[Skybird]

I have a principal issue with hear-say and superstition being tried to turn them into serious reasonable argument and claim to be taken as "respectable". These things never do good for people, but always harm them and leads them into mental and intellectual slavery and self-mutilation.

So effectively you ask me why I do have an issue with slavery.


And tell me one thing: why having bible classes in the GT forum of subsim.com? Baptizing event for subsim-member coming next?


On the man on the photo:

http://ufo-meldestelle.blog.de/?tag=sixto-paz

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0708/sixto.html



Keep thy UFOs and religions to thyself.

You guys would be the first complaining and yelling how offended you are if I would start an antireligious thread despite Neal's call to stop these religious threads, whether it be Islam or church or atheism, over one year ago he did. Let's leave it to the occasional exchnage of fire in other threads - we must not start threads exclusively focussed on religious things. Not to do so is a choice we all can make - and an advise from reason.

[Rockstar]

Sounds a lot like today, does it not? But then again, how many times has this same set of scenarios been played out since the Resurrection? Many, many times. And I'm sure that those times were thought to be the starting of the End Times too.

No, attempting to divine Scripture to "nail down" the time is not possible. Instead, we are exhorted to remain faithful and alert... Remember the parable of the 10 Virgins and the Lamps...

I agree others have made claims to being that generation and even have gone as far as attempting to nail down a day. I know you understand my intention is not call attention to myself, or to cause strife, turmoil or panic. I do not claim to know the day either. But if the watchman sees a sword coming and says nothing what is his reward?

With that said looking into other portions of scripture and comparing what Christ warned us of it, for me atleast, and a few others it becomes clear. Clear enough to sound an alarm and pray it's not false for I look forward to His return.

Consider the things you read of in Ezekiel 38 & 39, mountains thrown down, every creature on earth shaking at the presence of God, great hailstones, fire & brimstone, Israel returning to God from that day forward, all the heathen will know God has judged them, God’s name being known again in the midst of Israel, God not hiding His face from Israel anymore and pouring out His Spirit out upon the whole house of Israel.
Even after all of this He will still allow Rome to persecute Israel? I think not, rather this is that Day spoken of by the prophets.

Look at the nations in those two chapter that will come against Israel. Magog, Cush, Put, Togarmah, Persia, etc, etc. These nations still exist and are rising up today with a haterd unlike any other for the apple of His eye.

For the very first time in history Christianity has been statistically proven therefore quite possibly prophetically speaking ’falling away’ There is said to be around 3 billion Christians in the world, of these 1.13 billion are Catholics (according to their statistics) and they just admitted to taking second place behind an ever increasing and purely anti-christ doctrine. Today an Anti-Christ kingdom rises this very day whose doctrine considers as the greatest blasphemies the tri-unity of God, the Divinity of Messiah, His becoming a propitiation for our sins, death, burial and resurrection. So far it fulfills nearly every aspect of which we have been warned. And it’s coming at us like a big truck going down a big hill with no brakes.

[DeepIron]

Matthew 6:34 some very good advice: "Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

I tend to worry less and less about what the world does anymore. What will come to pass, shall. Instead, I try and focus on day to day living and getting past the trials that daily occur and affect my faith...

I have a principal issue with hear-say and superstition being tried to turn them into serious reasonable argument and claim to be taken as "respectable". These things never do good for people, but always harm them and leads them into mental and intellectual slavery and self-mutilation.That appears to be a problem for you... but not for everyone. I also fail to see your connection between people who believe in UFOs and the Book of Daniel, except as a very "non-intellectual" and meaningless sarcasm. I would think that people can carry on a mature and thoughtful discussion about Biblical Scripture without becoming "self-mutilating"... There are quite a few learned men in this world who do discuss Scripture and I'd hardly consider them "intellectual slaves". Thank you for your concern however.

[Onkel Neal]

You may have a serious principal issue with religon, that's fine, but it's not necessary to hijack every thread with religous content and mock people's beliefs.


I have a principal issue with hear-say and superstition being tried to turn them into serious reasonable argument and claim to be taken as "respectable". These things never do good for people, but always harm them and leads them into mental and intellectual slavery and self-mutilation.

So effectively you ask me why I do have an issue with slavery.


And tell me one thing: why having bible classes in the GT forum of subsim.com? Baptizing event for subsim-member coming next?


On the man on the photo:

http://ufo-meldestelle.blog.de/?tag=sixto-paz

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0708/sixto.html



Keep thy UFOs and religions to thyself.

You guys would be the first complaining and yelling how offended you are if I would start an antireligious thread despite Neal's call to stop these religious threads, whether it be Islam or church or atheism, over one year ago he did. Let's leave it to the occasional exchnage of fire in other threads - we must not start threads exclusively focussed on religious things. Not to do so is a choice we all can make - and an advise from reason.

[Frame57]

Is the time period between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel referring to the what some call the time of the gentiles?

[DeepIron]

Is the time period between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel referring to the what some call the time of the gentiles?The whole "70 weeks" represents the time of the Gentiles. During this time period the Jews have not been restored to God's Kingdom. At the end of the "69th week" the Messiah is rejected and there is a "gap" of time between the 69th and 70th week. This is thought to be the time of the Tribulation...

There's a good eschatology of the Book of Daniel here: http://biblesanity.org/daniel-esc.htm which covers it in more detail...

[kurtz]

You may have a serious principal issue with religon, that's fine, but it's not necessary to hijack every thread with religous content and mock people's beliefs.


I have a principal issue with hear-say and superstition being tried to turn them into serious reasonable argument and claim to be taken as "respectable". These things never do good for people, but always harm them and leads them into mental and intellectual slavery and self-mutilation.

So effectively you ask me why I do have an issue with slavery.


And tell me one thing: why having bible classes in the GT forum of subsim.com? Baptizing event for subsim-member coming next?


On the man on the photo:

http://ufo-meldestelle.blog.de/?tag=sixto-paz

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0708/sixto.html



Keep thy UFOs and religions to thyself.

You guys would be the first complaining and yelling how offended you are if I would start an antireligious thread despite Neal's call to stop these religious threads, whether it be Islam or church or atheism, over one year ago he did. Let's leave it to the occasional exchnage of fire in other threads - we must not start threads exclusively focussed on religious things. Not to do so is a choice we all can make - and an advise from reason.
It may not be neccesary, but starting a thread means exposing your beliefs and theories to public scrutiny and if your beliefs provoke amusement then that's what you'll get. I'm very much with Sky on this one. This whole doomsday scenario is just cooked up by god's self appointed assistants to try and scare the gullible into flocking to their religion, it should be argued against by all right thinking people.

[DeepIron]

It may not be neccesary, but starting a thread means exposing your beliefs and theories to public scrutiny and if your beliefs provoke amusement then that's what you'll get. I'm very much with Sky on this one. This whole doomsday scenario is just cooked up by god's self appointed assistants to try and scare the gullible into flocking to their religion, it should be argued against by all right thinking people.Your post is not about any "amusing" aspect of this thread, it's simple sarcasm and elitism. What you're attempting to justify here is labeling those of us who have faith in God and the Scriptures as people who don't "think right".

More to the point, people who don't think like YOU do... :shifty:

I find it interesting that those who find fault in others believing in God and a Savior, can seldom argue their own point of view in any sensible manner...

So please tell us kurtz, WHY you thing the "whole doomsday scenario" is cooked up? Please entertain us with a rationale that makes some form of sense. I promise, speaking for myself, that I will listen with an open mind and consider whatever points you may care to make.

Cheers.

[kurtz]

It may not be neccesary, but starting a thread means exposing your beliefs and theories to public scrutiny and if your beliefs provoke amusement then that's what you'll get. I'm very much with Sky on this one. This whole doomsday scenario is just cooked up by god's self appointed assistants to try and scare the gullible into flocking to their religion, it should be argued against by all right thinking people.Your post is not about any "amusing" aspect of this thread, it's simple sarcasm and elitism. What you're attempting to justify here is labeling those of us who have faith in God and the Scriptures as people who don't "think right".

More to the point, people who don't think like YOU do... :shifty:

I find it interesting that those who find fault in others believing in God and a Savior, can seldom argue their own point of view in any sensible manner...

So please tell us kurtz, WHY you thing the "whole doomsday scenario" is cooked up? Please entertain us with a rationale that makes some form of sense. I promise, speaking for myself, that I will listen with an open mind and consider whatever points you may care to make.

Cheers.

Quite simply there are two ways of getting people too join your religion, there's the islamic way where you threaten with murder, or Rockstar's way where you threaten with some nebulous day of judgement where anyone who has not made the correct choice will suffer unending torment...of course knowing which is the correct choice is difficult.
To recap I think the scenario is cooked up to be a recruiting drive and it does the job pretty well, people hardly ever point out that they are predicted with great regularity but never happen, and they cost nothing yet but bums on pews and rake in the cash, which of course the gods love.
Even if there was a god I would be unimpressed with his methods.

Also, people not believing in gods and saviours not arguing a point with any sense, what sense could there be for believing there are such things, they must go with fairies and goblins. The reason atiests arguments make no sense to you is our frames of reference, in the abscence of any evidence you beieve in things whereas in the abscence of evidence I don't. I think I'm right but I'm afraid I can't see why thiests think they are.

[Onkel Neal]

I have a principal issue with hear-say and superstition being tried to turn them into serious reasonable argument and claim to be taken as "respectable". These things never do good for people, but always harm them and leads them into mental and intellectual slavery and self-mutilation.




It may not be neccesary, but starting a thread means exposing your beliefs and theories to public scrutiny and if your beliefs provoke amusement then that's what you'll get.

No, not true. As long as there is not a spam flood of religous topics by the same person or same few people, we will show a little respect and not mock people in this forum.

[Kapitan]

Wasnt there a book written by a guy called thomas that was excluded from the bible?

[DeepIron]

Wasnt there a book written by a guy called thomas that was excluded from the bible?There have been many issues taken with a number of books that were "excluded" from the Bible, 18 in all I believe, and commonly known as the New Testiment Apocrypha. It has been demonstrated, by many scholars in both the secular and "religious" worlds throughout many, many years, that the books in question were not written in a manner "consistent" with the rest of the Bible.

The process of determining which books were accepted into the Bible as we know it was a rigorous one. Here's a short article that outlines a brief history:
http://www.thetruthaboutdavinci.com/missing-books-of-the-bible.html

@kurtz: The reason atheists arguments make no sense to you is our frames of reference, in the absence of any evidence you believe in things whereas in the absence of evidence I don't. I think I'm right but I'm afraid I can't see why theists think they are.Hmm... just because we can't sense God through any of our mortal senses doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
What follows is a simplification but I assume you'll see the gist of it.
The whole of Christianity is based upon the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection so one has to accept He existed. Now, we have to ask ourselves, was Jesus a liar, a lunatic or Lord?
Well, just reading the New Testament gospels, which are well documented by at least 4 of the Apostles, Jesus held himself to the highest moral standards. So he wasn't a liar.
Was he a lunatic? Put it this way, would the Apostles, many of which were put to gruesome deaths, had persisted in their conviction and beliefs thinking that Jesus was a "loonie"? Would you?
So that would leave the third option, that Jesus of Nazereth is Lord. IMO it would be wise to heed His teachings.

I find it more comforting and practical to believe in a God who loves me and cares about me than to believe in a world where Man makes and breaks his own rules at will and cares little for anything other than his singular self.

[Rockstar]

Is the time period between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel referring to the what some call the time of the gentiles?

From the time king Nebuchad-nezzer was given dominion Jerusalem has been trodden down by the gentile nations. Not until Messiah returns will this cease to be.

[Frame57]

Is the time period between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel referring to the what some call the time of the gentiles?

From the time king Nebuchad-nezzer was given dominion Jerusalem has been trodden down by the gentile nations. Not until Messiah returns will this cease to be.I am all for the return of the messiah. God knows this world just continues to be steeped in chaos continually. But what is taking so dog gone long? I mean come on already, its been 2000 years...

[Stealth Hunter]

Yes... why is it taking so long?:hmm:

[Iceman]

Is the time period between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel referring to the what some call the time of the gentiles?

From the time king Nebuchad-nezzer was given dominion Jerusalem has been trodden down by the gentile nations. Not until Messiah returns will this cease to be.I am all for the return of the messiah. God knows this world just continues to be steeped in chaos continually. But what is taking so dog gone long? I mean come on already, its been 2000 years...

John 14


1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Matthew 24

45 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-45.htm) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-46.htm) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-47.htm) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-48.htm) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-49.htm) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-50.htm) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 (http://bible.cc/matthew/24-51.htm) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Sea Demon]

Hmm... just because we can't sense God through any of our mortal senses doesn't mean He doesn't exist.


So that would leave the third option, that Jesus of Nazereth is Lord. IMO it would be wise to heed His teachings.

I find it more comforting and practical to believe in a God who loves me and cares about me than to believe in a world where Man makes and breaks his own rules at will and cares little for anything other than his singular self.

Well in another sense, because a person does not or cannot connect to their own spirituality, and prefers to mock people who can and do, I find it odd that they just flat-out assume God doesn't exist. Couldn't exist in their point of view. As someone who's grounded in faith myself, I do see these times as interesting. For those willing to see, you will see.

[kiwi_2005]

Wasnt there a book written by a guy called thomas that was excluded from the bible?
Yes there were a few books excluded, but because they were not written by the Apostles, and more often than not, were written by a group of heretics called the Gnostics. The Gnostics were people who mixed Greek philosophy and Christianity and developed a religion unsuitable to either. On the Christian end, they were roundly condemned even in the New Testament on account of their denial that Jesus was really a man, that He really died, and that the God of the Old Testament is the one true God.

Ive read these books many years ago as my mother own this version of the bible they were inspiring stories of Jewish male/female warriors/kings.

Some i can remeber (no longer own the book)
Bel and the Dragon.
Sussana.
Tobit.
I and II Macabees.
II Esdras.

[kiwi_2005]

Philippians Chapter 4 v8
Finally, Brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthly - think about such things. Whatever you have learned or recieved or heard from me, or seen in me - put it into practice. And God of peace will be with you.

_ _ _

God has made us in such a way that what we think affects the way we feel, and how we feel affects the way we act. If you fill your mind with the eight expressions of abundant life that Paul lists here, you will find fear being replaced by faith, destructive negatives by positives, and God's joy and serenity will fill your hearts.

We are only free in relation to material goods when we are free to use poverty or plenty. Paul had learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, a secret which guarantees absolute security.
Why could Paul do this? Because his life was not centred in plenty or in penury or in his cirumstances at all, but in a person - Jesus Christ himself.

[CaptainHaplo]

Ok - in the interest of full disclosure - I am ordained.

Now - with that being thrown out there - lets be clear. This thread appears to have been started for those who have an interest in biblical prophecy and its interpretation of end times. In reading the entire thing, I saw no one of faith telling anyone who doesn't believe that they need to convert.

The fact that a post on scripture would be so quickly attacked by non-believers is simply a sign that many in today's society do not want to have to answer to a moral and ethical call above themselves. That is their choice, and I commend my fellows for their steadfast faith in such times.

Now - to discuss the issue of end times and the "generational" issue. If one were to look at the link - you would notice that the references used jump around - aka - are taken out of context to create a mocking little story. Such is the way of those who would try and disprove a belief in the Almighty.

Also - Mikhayl has a valid point - to truly understand scripture one must be willing to study Hebrew (and Greek) to grasp it. While I personally have issue with the original post on a few theological levels, I don't feel that a public discussion of those differences would be fruitful, nor appropriate. As a matter of point, it is not up to me to tell a brother or sister that their God-given understanding of prophecy (as compared to the Law) is in error - because its concerning future events. The Law is a different matter entirely.

I will close by simply reminding everyone that a choice to believe or not is a personal one, and that we can, as Christians, allow our lives and thus our actions to be demonstrative of the Life we are given through our Savior. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Frame57]

I agree about the language issue. I would have throw in Aramaic as well. Intersting note that while on the cross (tree?) Jesus' words were in Aramaic. Other places in scripture as well, "Talitha Cumi..." etc... Some scholars of ancient languages agree that the syntax of the New testament is an Aramaic one and not greek. Sorry, I cannot post current refs on that, but I have many old books on the subject, from when i thought i was going to be an archaeologist...

But just a note to say that I think this is an interesting biblical study. Refreshing to see one and i think it is fine because just look at all the other topics that are discussed in the general forum.

[Stealth Hunter]

And tell me one thing: why having bible classes in the GT forum of subsim.com? Baptizing event for subsim-member coming next?

Most religious folk it seems believe that if they cry "Lord! Lord!" often enough, they can contrive to enter the kingdom of heaven. A flock of trained parrots could just as readily cry the same thing with just as little chance of success.

[DeepIron]

Most religious folk it seems believe that if they cry "Lord! Lord!" often enough, they can contrive to enter the kingdom of heaven. A flock of trained parrots could just as readily cry the same thing with just as little chance of success.Actually, people who really try and understand Scripture, know that crying "Lord, Lord!" is not going to work...
Matthew 7:21 says it plainly; "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

So, while it is right to rely and trust in Jesus, we must also remember to do God's will as best we can. The cool thing, at least to me, is this: If one will but honestly try and live a life dedicated to trying to do good, having compassion for others and sustaining one's faith, doing those things which are pleasing to God come naturally.

[Rockstar]

Ive read these books many years ago as my mother own this version of the bible they were inspiring stories of Jewish male/female warriors/kings.

Some i can remeber (no longer own the book)
Bel and the Dragon.
Sussana.
Tobit.
I and II Macabees.
II Esdras.

I have a 1611 edition Holy Bible, it has the Apocrypha. Some of the others are Wisdom, Sirac and Baruch. But I agree with the translators that portion shouldn't be used as nothing more than historical reference.

כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃

[She-Wolf]

I am ... amazed. I did not expect to find a full-blown discussion on the prophecies of Daniel on a SubSim forum - not even in General topics ( which, to my shame, I have not visited before). I have to admit, it does not make me feel quite comfortable. Why? because it surely cannot help but cause division and hard words from those who are not believers. I wonder what did you expect to achieve Rockstar? How does it help to put such things before those who are certain to pour scorn on and trample and ridicule the truths of scripture? Does it bring such folks any closer? I don't see the merit nor the reasoning. I also think that putting the Isaiah verse in Hebrew is a device of separation, since not so many of us will understand what it is saying.

Having said all that, I am also amazed that there are so many believers on here. Hello bruvs.:)

[Iceman]

I am ... amazed. I did not expect to find a full-blown discussion on the prophecies of Daniel on a SubSim forum - not even in General topics ( which, to my shame, I have not visited before). I have to admit, it does not make me feel quite comfortable. Why? because it surely cannot help but cause division and hard words from those who are not believers. I wonder what did you expect to achieve Rockstar? How does it help to put such things before those who are certain to pour scorn on and trample and ridicule the truths of scripture? Does it bring such folks any closer? I don't see the merit nor the reasoning. I also think that putting the Isaiah verse in Hebrew is a device of separation, since not so many of us will understand what it is saying.

Having said all that, I am also amazed that there are so many believers on here. Hello bruvs.:)

God did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance...those that be whole have no need of a physcian....

A good freind of mine years ago called me "Johnny Appleseed"...I took that as great compliment...because you never know where the seed will take root...some are meant to toss seed others to water and nuture...you never know that is the point.He said he used to watch me as we interacted with others and how freely I would share the good news of salvation.

Some have entertained angels unaware.
Fight the Good Fight :)

So the reasoning for any believer is to follow the command...and the command was to preach Christ's death as the way to Salvation until He returns...that is the command...period.

Not just when convienient or expediant but always ,unceasingly, with great fever.

[Onkel Neal]

I am ... amazed. I did not expect to find a full-blown discussion on the prophecies of Daniel on a SubSim forum - not even in General topics ( which, to my shame, I have not visited before). I have to admit, it does not make me feel quite comfortable. Why? because it surely cannot help but cause division and hard words from those who are not believers. I wonder what did you expect to achieve Rockstar? How does it help to put such things before those who are certain to pour scorn on and trample and ridicule the truths of scripture? Does it bring such folks any closer? I don't see the merit nor the reasoning. I also think that putting the Isaiah verse in Hebrew is a device of separation, since not so many of us will understand what it is saying.

Having said all that, I am also amazed that there are so many believers on here. Hello bruvs.:)

Even though this is the Internet, I don't see any reason why people of faith cannot soberly discuss religous topics. As long as they don't spam the forum, and that principle applies to all topics (political, etc).

[UnderseaLcpl]

Bump for topical discussion. Never having done a great deal of detailed theological analysis myself, I find this very interesting.

[She-Wolf]

[/quote]
Even though this is the Internet, I don't see any reason why people of faith cannot soberly discuss religous topics. As long as they don't spam the forum, and that principle applies to all topics (political, etc).[/quote]

OK Neal ( she says with a grin, thinking of starting a thread on PMT) :rotfl:

Iceman, despite your zeal for doing the Lord's work, Matthew 7:6 comes to mind. I fear that unready folk are not in any way made ready, just hardened and antagonised by being spoken at rather than agreeably conversed with - but, you will quite rightly point out to me that such folk do not need to read the thread. I still think it inappropriate, but I will keep quiet from now on:yep:

[jumpy]

It may not be neccesary, but starting a thread means exposing your beliefs and theories to public scrutiny and if your beliefs provoke amusement then that's what you'll get. I'm very much with Sky on this one. This whole doomsday scenario is just cooked up by god's self appointed assistants to try and scare the gullible into flocking to their religion, it should be argued against by all right thinking people.Your post is not about any "amusing" aspect of this thread, it's simple sarcasm and elitism. What you're attempting to justify here is labeling those of us who have faith in God and the Scriptures as people who don't "think right".

More to the point, people who don't think like YOU do... :shifty:

I find it interesting that those who find fault in others believing in God and a Savior, can seldom argue their own point of view in any sensible manner...

So please tell us kurtz, WHY you thing the "whole doomsday scenario" is cooked up? Please entertain us with a rationale that makes some form of sense. I promise, speaking for myself, that I will listen with an open mind and consider whatever points you may care to make.

Cheers.
Without rattling anyone's cage here, I have to admit some deep consternation when the topic of faith and religion rears it's ugly head. Much of this comes from the attitudes of many faiths towards unbelievers; not necessarily individuals and the strictures their faith places upon them, more the organisations and what they publicly stand for and preach.
I'm with Pat on his thoughts on the 'desert dogmas' generally speaking, but that doesn't mean I'm anti religion - people can believe what they like, so long as they choose not to impose their ideas and beliefs upon others.

I'd like to draw attention to the two sections in bold above as an example, not of DeepIron's views particularly, but of the point he is trying to make in its wider sense.

Firstly, I have encountered religious belief that considers me to be the one who does not 'think right' and quite vociferously so, because I have no faith in a creator deity as we would recognise in christianity, islam and the like. The scale varies from smugly stating I'll burn in eternal hell because the all forgiving, omnipotent god is, erm.. all forgiving? (I must admit to finding such piety to be more than a little condescending - that and the misplaced idea that somehow I need to be saved from myself; why, I cynically ask? for my benefit, or for bettering the conscience of believers?) To what amounts to a religious apartheid, condemning me to death and subjugation and exploitation.

Secondly, it appears a rarity that (some) believers can equal the statement regarding 'arguing their own point of view in any sensible manner', as their reference to their argument is based in its entirety upon scripture from a holy text that has no greater insight or meaning to an atheist than a recipe for noodle soup. And so most arguments like these will inevitably reach an impasse. The trouble is none of these have any common thought or belief or tradition. So believers continue to call upon scripture to justify their views and beliefs, whilst atheists continue to view such nonsense with derision accorded to vague and contradictory ancient literature as a basis on which to live your life and organise others to that effect.

So who is really right? Well... nobody as far as I can see. For the most part I see no benefit in attempting to convince believers of the error of their ways. It is with some humour that I can say that it is a pity many believers do not hold such a view :lol: (I have yet to have an atheist knock on my door early on a saturday morning and ask if I have thought about humanism recently) Goes in hand with vague statements like 'Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.'
I know what it means in an allegorical sense, but the finest minds and resources in history have argued both for and against any number if theological points from the bible, without any real conclusion. Our propensity, as a species, for expending great effort in the completely abstract never ceases to amaze me. Just think what all of those brains could have envisaged had they not been confounded by religion? Maybe nothing at all...? Who knows? The question is academic.

I have to admit to not having any more knowledge of the bible than that which I was forced to learn at school until I was 17 or so. But that is simply because I don't need a text/belief system imposed upon me to tell me how to be nice to people, which is the basic core of christianity anyway surely?

I spent quite a good deal of time since, reading and discussing ancient greek theology and philosophy - Homer, Aeschylus, Euripides and Plato to name but a few sources. Despite their pagan roots, there's much of the sense of values that christianity adopted as it's own; the question of many gods or the 'one' god appears to miss the point somewhat. There are common aspects to be found in all of the ancient religions which have passed forwards to those we know today (mostly by 'modern' religion subsuming pagan ritual and tradition), such as redemption and forgiveness, atonement, hubris and retribution, salvation and apolalypse. Some might think this is a result of some pervading divine truth, giving further weight to their spiritual belief and righteousness. I think however, that this is symptomatic of the human condition; the need to understand and describe the emotions and feelings intertwined with existence and being. It is a natural conceit to assume that we are the centre of everything, as many a long held belief maintains to this day.

As for the idea of a single deity, I think on balance I prefer the old greek gods with their petty arrogance and tantrums - the seem every bit as 'human' as the rest of us but with the capricious nature allowed by super human powers/magic. They are very honest in a simplistic way; what you see is what you get so you'd best take a little care! It is this very familiarity of spirit that makes them perhaps more approachable and indeed gives a glimpse as to their origins in the minds of men - full of such human failings and jealousy and contradiction, not quite unlike certain aspects of the christian or islamic god as I understand it.

Can prophesy tell us anything about ourselves or the future? I don't think so. Most are so vague or out of their time and understanding as to be almost useless as anything other than an insight into the minds of those consigned to antiquity and dust. Most also seem to have a duplicitous nature to them too, hence the continual discussion of their validity today. Perhaps it is all true? One thing is certain, the more time spent trying to fathom the murky depths of contradictory dogma and clairvoyance, the more time we devote to erecting walls between each other over something nobody really knows about for certain one way or another - that's the difference between faith and knowledge in my opinion. Despite religion of the modern age espousing respect and love for all, it should be a source of great great shame that so much blood has, and continues to be, thrown away for such an obviously human need for a simple answer as to our place in the universe.

[geetrue]

The thread topic is about the Book of Daniel ... a very interesting point is made in Daniel's pleading with God for the deliverance of Jerusalem.

The angel Gabriel comes to Daniel in the middle of his prayer (verse 21) stating that the God of the Hebrew children had already approved of giving Daniel the understanding of the vision.

Notice how Daniel is humble in his prayer and request to God to save Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:13-23
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth.
14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!
16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us.
17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate.
18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies.
19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God,
21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand.
23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

also worth reading are the verses 24 to 27 with the prophecy about the 70 weeks and the promise of a messiah to deliver the Hebrew nation.

Keep in mind that all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord ...

Jesus reminds us in Revelations 3:15
“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

A promise we should all take seriously ...
[/URL]
(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=999888#_ftn1) (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=999888#_ftn1)




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[Iceman]

Even though this is the Internet, I don't see any reason why people of faith cannot soberly discuss religous topics. As long as they don't spam the forum, and that principle applies to all topics (political, etc).[/quote]

OK Neal ( she says with a grin, thinking of starting a thread on PMT) :rotfl:

Iceman, despite your zeal for doing the Lord's work, Matthew 7:6 comes to mind. I fear that unready folk are not in any way made ready, just hardened and antagonised by being spoken at rather than agreeably conversed with - but, you will quite rightly point out to me that such folk do not need to read the thread. I still think it inappropriate, but I will keep quiet from now on:yep:[/quote]

Again...we speak not for those many who will not see or hear but for the one who will...can you tell which it is?....I can't, hence the seed tossing. :)

Already the topic itself has drawn some who never would have thought such a discussion would or could even take place here...imagine that.

Let the dead bury the dead...he that is unholy let him be unholy still....Indeed....He that hath an ear to hear let him hear.

[Onkel Neal]

Mikhayl, is it necessary to be so rude?

[Fish]

Also - Mikhayl has a valid point - to truly understand scripture one must be willing to study Hebrew (and Greek) to grasp it.
Not only that but Aramees too, like this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Interested in de bible, listen to: Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo)

[DeepIron]

Also - Mikhayl has a valid point - to truly understand scripture one must be willing to study Hebrew (and Greek) to grasp it.Sorry but I have to disagree with this statement. There are many good translations available where the Greek and Hebrew are shown and translated faithfully for the layman. In some texts, the translations are shown side by side with the english so the student can make comparisons directly.

That being said, I think anyone who makes study of Scripture their life's work, as in Seminary or Study of Religion at a University, yes, should learn both along with some Latin thrown in...

[Iceman]

Also - Mikhayl has a valid point - to truly understand scripture one must be willing to study Hebrew (and Greek) to grasp it.
Not only that but Aramees too, like this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Interested in de bible, listen to: Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo)

Great lil 10 vids...:up: ...a doubting Thomas to the end but makes his point.2000 years of stories handed down what do you think you would get Thomas?Vanity of vanites All is vanity..."The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd."

Seek and ye shall find....don't and you won't. :) ---> Back to Daniel...

Some great Revelation (http://www.revelationillustrated.com/shop/) art work on this site if anyone is intrested.

[Frame57]

The thread topic is about the Book of Daniel ... a very interesting point is made in Daniel's pleading with God for the deliverance of Jerusalem.

The angel Gabriel comes to Daniel in the middle of his prayer (verse 21) stating that the God of the Hebrew children had already approved of giving Daniel the understanding of the vision.

Notice how Daniel is humble in his prayer and request to God to save Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:13-23
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth.
14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!
16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us.
17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate.
18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”
20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God,
21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand.
23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

also worth reading are the verses 24 to 27 with the prophecy about the 70 weeks and the promise of a messiah to deliver the Hebrew nation.

Keep in mind that all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord ...

Jesus reminds us in Revelations 3:15
“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

A promise we should all take seriously ...








Jesus is going to puke us out??? They got anti-nausea meds for that...

[Enigma]

I have to admit, it does not make me feel quite comfortable. Why? because it surely cannot help but cause division and hard words from those who are not believers.

I object!

As a non believer, I think it's unfair to believe that I would automatically have harsh words for those of faith. I only opened this thread out of curiosity, as it's not a subject that I'd be interested in. But this is what leaped out at me.
Personally, I think it's wonderful for you folks to have a discussion about a topic that interests you, religious or not, and why I would be perceived to have a problem with that simply because of my beliefs strikes me as me being the one who is being judged, as opposed to you. I think you call that irony....

The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein

:smug:

Carry on my friends....

[She-Wolf]

Enigma, bringing religious topics into a games forum is likely to bring a hostile comment from those who are opposed to - as some have put it 'bible freaks' - putting what THEY believe, but what others do not,and have no interest in, on public display. I have a certain sympathy with that reaction as I think it is a divisive contribution - it separates 'us' from 'them', whoever 'us' is deemed to be.

If you do not mind - fine, the comment was not directed at you, but some folk do mind.

If I said 'from some of those who are not believers' that might have been less sweeping, so my apologies.

[MothBalls]

I thought about this thread this morning while I was driving my V8 powered 4x4 full size American truck to Starbucks and haul home a heavy cup of mocha (my car is in the shop). On the way I passed by a few churches. All of them had open doors, I could have stopped into any one of them and listened to the sermon.

What if I would have entered into one of them and started telling them they are wrong? What if I told them they should only believe what I agree with and nothing else? What if I started yelling and screaming they they were stupid for their beliefs?

Of course nobody in their right mind would do this. So why is it OK to enter a thread and do the same thing? I just kept driving and chose to let them practice whatever religion they wanted, in peace. You have that same option here. If you don't agree with what is being discussed, why would you feel obligated to enter and mock them? Would you do this in person?

Welcome to America, land of the free. Where people are free to believe in whatever god they choose without fear of reprisal. It should be no different online than it is offline. If there isn't a rule barring this type of discussion then there's no reason to complain, just go to the next thread.

I don't see the problem with it at all. So there's a few people on the forum who are into submarine simulations who are also interested in the bible. So they start a discussion about it, to have an open conversation with people of similar likes. That's great, that's what this country is all about. The freedom of choice.

[DeepIron]

As a non believer, I think it's unfair to believe that I would automatically have harsh words for those of faith.People who diligently study God's Law and the Scriptures and find application in their lives tend NOT to automatically react in such a way has been my experience.

We are to have love, compassion and understanding, knowing good and well that every individual has to discovery for his or herself what kind of relationship they want or don't want with God and His Son.

[MothBalls]

Mothballs, interesting but uh, pretty flawed don't you think ? thread=church ?

Do you have two sets of manners? One that you use online, one that you use offline? What's the difference?

I didn't see anyone recruiting in this thread, just a discussion.

[Iceman]

Fish's post actually was a very good one with the link to the gent who had a discussion in a ten part vid series on the discrepancys in the history, origins and transcriptions of the bible. Honestly I never actually considered this aspect for people as a cause for stumbling or doubt as to the accurracy or athenticity of the text, I don 't know why. I assume from my part that each person would naturally expect such discrecpancys since the very books of the Bible have different names...I.E. Daniel,Matthew, The Books of Moses , and the Proverbs and Pslams. I always assumed that they would have different styles of writting what they were wittnesses to as well as being written in different periods of time....that to me is what makes the book so unique....It is a "Living" word to me...not because of one particuliar book or passage but the book as a whole.I have read many books in my life and I can not say that I would ever want to read them again...but the Bible to me is so dynamic and the lessons and storys so ...so...better than any Speilburg or Lucas movie could ever have hoped to achieve that for myself I have been convinced of it's truths many times over...it never gets old...I have never finished it and yet have read it from cover to cover many times now in my life...it has no end...to me. But the gent in Fish's vid makes a very good point to me and it simply refocuses one of Christs very last lessons to man...and that is the lack of the ability of man to believe even when he has "Seen" for himself things that could not have been done by any other than the Son of God....Thomas was told to "Touch" the wounds in the body so he might "See" and believe....

I mean every member here can probably alomst recite the scenes from "The Hunt for Red October'...we are all intrested in it..yet we would all tell the tale a little different to a person who hadn't seen it...that being said...if a person has any wisdom at all and not even having believeing in a "God" to look at the history of the world and the tales by Christianity,Judiasim and Islam...and the books that have been written, and the story's that have been passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth...then for any human to not at least take a very very close look at the "Theory" of creation...then that man must be a FOOL...by my measure because no way in hell could such a "Movie" have survived so many generations for so long...if there is not a great amount of truth in it somewhere...one only need seek to find the answers..in my opinion...to each his own huh? :)

P.S...anyone with more on Daniel...please post it because that book has always intrested me as well as Revelations,Proverbs and Psalms.

Steer right 315... :)

[Rockstar]

Well I have alot more about this book. But tell me, what do you think of the brief I posted on Chapter II. I'm thinking more Middle East particularly a kingdom that occupies Nebuchad-nezzer's old kingdomm of Babylon.

[She-Wolf]

If you are asking for anyone's opinion rather than directing only to Iceman, there are two areas in which, as yet ( but gotta be flexible!) I am not sure I agree with your conclusions.

The first is that the Chaldee word used for 'divided' in Daniel is very similar to the name given to one of 'Eber's sons, and given to him to mark the fact that at that time of his son's birth or naming, the earth was divided..... I always assumed that meant the physical earth ( eretz) suffered some sort of split as in an earthquake, or was parcelled out in some form between the evolving nations - but perhaps it doesn't mean that and I need to look again at Gen 10. However there are other words in the Hebrew to indicate a dividing or distinction which is not literal - why was this word used and not one which would indicate a more figurative form of separation I wonder, if a physical division or separation of land is not being referred to.

Second thing, there seems to be a consistency between the historic events of world dominion and Daniels prophecies and Revelation, which has been well argued out by many people, and their interpretation seems to fit well enough from what small studies I have made. Why then are you introducing the Middle East as a possible candidate - how would that fit with the prophecies about the little horn and the kings and the fierce beast like none before it I wonder? Tracking the demise of the Roman Empire through the Goths, Huns, Visigoths etc, I can see how Europe is the likely identity for the revived Roman Empire, and there is an inability among those nations to 'stick together' as with the iron and mirey clay, or so it seems - how does a middle eastern alternative fit as well then? Not saying you are wrong, just don't think, as yet that it has all the requirements to fit the various prophecies..

[Rockstar]

Hey she-wolf,

Is that a dingo pictured in your avatar?

What I have for a definition for the word 'divided' is from strong's

H6385
פּלג
pâlag
paw-lag'
A primitive root; to split (literally or figuratively): - divide.

You are correct in that it is the same word used in Genisis 10:25. However I find according the information I have it may used literally or figuratively. It is, I suppose, only a matter of the context in which it was used.

Because God specifically numbered 4 kingdoms in the image, to arithmetically divide the 4th into two parts would now give us five, unless of course there is a mathmatician here (for I am not) who could refute that.

We read this 4th kingdom will be in existence when Yeshua returns and as happens to divided (Gentile) kingdoms it will be brought to desolation.


I will add more later concerning the little horn.

[She-Wolf]

No Rockstar, that is my GSD - recently departed I might add - dingo indeed!

You haven't responded in regard to how a middle eastern kingdom (meaning present day Iraq (?)) , fits with the other prophecies, but that's OK. I will not give further thoughts on the King of the North scripture you cite as on present info I am not clear how it fits with the scenario you are painting. I wonder what you make of Antiochus Epiphanes though, in regard to his modern counterpart - but I shall go back to lurking now - seems I do that best and it keeps me out of trouble.

Rockstar, you might be a sensitive soul, like me, and feel threatened by even gentle criticism, so I want to say this to you loud and clear. What you say about being 'stiff' and 'complacent' sits well with me. It is good and right that accepted views are challenged - makes us look again at what scripture says and how it might be differently understood.

The scribes and teachers of Israel thought they understood the teachings from front to back, yet they were blind to much that we now see more clearly in hindsight, because they never seriously questioned what they understood within their school of learning.

Even though I don't yet see what you see, it is another possible interpretation, something to be pondered and pigeon-holed and held up now and then to see if it matches against future events, so, thank you :) Now me and my 'dingo' will depart. Hmph.

[Iceman]

Well I have alot more about this book. But tell me, what do you think of the brief I posted on Chapter II. I'm thinking more Middle East particularly a kingdom that occupies Nebuchad-nezzer's old kingdomm of Babylon.

I will have to read and re-read it many times what you are trying to say...the book of Daniel as well as Revelations is like encoded as I am very careful not to read into my own interpretations simply because of the warnings given about doing so yet also look to the simple scripture as what to look for...

Daniel 11

14
And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

32 (http://bible.cc/daniel/11-32.htm) And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 (http://bible.cc/daniel/11-33.htm) And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 (http://bible.cc/daniel/11-34.htm) Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 (http://bible.cc/daniel/11-35.htm) And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

as well as the parable of the fig tree is what I have to go by...

These are terrible prophecys to me and hard to grasp the meanings and times and seasons of such but one need only look around and see the troublesome times the world is in and know things are changing and will never be the same.

this is why I ask for more...I like to read and welcome any opinions and information or thoughts on this book.

[AngusJS]

Hmm... just because we can't sense God through any of our mortal senses doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
What follows is a simplification but I assume you'll see the gist of it.
The whole of Christianity is based upon the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection so one has to accept He existed. Now, we have to ask ourselves, was Jesus a liar, a lunatic or Lord?
Well, just reading the New Testament gospels, which are well documented by at least 4 of the Apostles, Jesus held himself to the highest moral standards. So he wasn't a liar.
What about the mustard seed blooper?

And if he held himself to the highest moral standards, how come he never got around to condemning slavery?

In fact, if Jesus is God, then that makes him complicit in all the loveliness of the Old Testament, doesn't it?

And the gospels weren't written by the apostles.

Was he a lunatic? Put it this way, would the Apostles, many of which were put to gruesome deaths, had persisted in their conviction and beliefs thinking that Jesus was a "loonie"? Would you?
Just because they didn't think he was a loon, doesn't he mean he wasn't. Maybe the apostles were loons, too?

And besides, history is replete with examples of just such behavior.

So that would leave the third option, that Jesus of Nazereth is Lord.
Or not.

IMO it would be wise to heed His teachings.
I just don't get why the distorted musings of a first century Jewish apocalyptic preacher from Palestine should be so vitally important today.

I find it more comforting and practical to believe in a God who loves me and cares about me than to believe in a world where Man makes and breaks his own rules at will and cares little for anything other than his singular self.
To each his own. When I look up at the Milky Way, I can't reconcile the grandeur of the cosmos with the pettiness of the god of the bible.

[Frame57]

One must educate oneself before opening yap... The "bond slave" of the old testament was in fact a "bond servant". The fact that laws governing the treatment of such people were in their favor. Wars were and are inevitable and is ahuman thing and not a god thing. The laws of the OT were in favor of good and favorable treatment of the bond slave. Many became bond slaves out of financial necessity and were offered their freedom with pay I might add after a period of time. many were house stewards that took care of the household business on a daily basis. Many chose to stay with the family they served and became part of that family. So one should not compare what happened to the African people with what many want to equate the OT with. They are not comparable at all. I might add that the stewards of the house were in fact second in command of the house next only to the master himself. Biblical era customs and mannerisms need to be understood before commentary is inter-jected.

[Rockstar]

No Rockstar, that is my GSD - recently departed I might add - dingo indeed!

You haven't responded in regard to how a middle eastern kingdom (meaning present day Iraq (?)) , fits with the other prophecies, but that's OK. I will not give further thoughts on the King of the North scripture you cite as on present info I am not clear how it fits with the scenario you are painting. I wonder what you make of Antiochus Epiphanes though, in regard to his modern counterpart - but I shall go back to lurking now - seems I do that best and it keeps me out of trouble.

My thoughts about what King Nebuchad-nezzer was thinking is written in the 1st post. It I hope opened a window into his thoughts before he went to bed. Chapter 11 also helps re-enforce that thought ;).

Hopefully anyone studying this will recognize the prophetic writtings in this book are in two parts. For an example, In Chapter II a description of Nebuchad-nezzers dream is given by Daniel in verses 31-35. If we know the answer to the question Joseph asked "Do not interpretations belong to God? We will then leave the interpretations of these dreams to God and stop attemptting to add our own or re-interpret what God already has. With that said in verses 36 through 45 is the interpretation of the dream straight from God via Daniel. It's simple english, no great mystery for men to ponder in the imaginations of thier heart. But you must read on to the end of this book to discover the location. Which is the kingdom of the north, north of what though? Jerusalem! It is the center of the world.


Now, as for Antiochus, where in Daniel do see that name? It cannot be him who is spoken of in Chapter 8. Number one God never mentions him by name anywhere. Secondly in Mathew 24 His disciples asked Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? This question was asked in reference to a future event probably around 29 or 30 A.D. something that was yet to come. When Yeshua answered He referenced the book of Daniel in verse 15. How then can anyone say Antichous is represented when Christ was speaking of a future event? Did not Antiochus die 190 years before this question was asked? I hope that makes sense.

Now when you read other chapters in Daniel they too are broken in two parts a dream and vision then with two verses of it the interpretation.

Let me know what you find out. I will say this that chapter 8 is a continuation of chapter 7 can you tell me where it may indicate this?

Rockstar, you might be a sensitive soul, like me, and feel threatened by even gentle criticism, so I want to say this to you loud and clear. What you say about being 'stiff' and 'complacent' sits well with me. It is good and right that accepted views are challenged - makes us look again at what scripture says and how it might be differently understood.

The scribes and teachers of Israel thought they understood the teachings from front to back, yet they were blind to much that we now see more clearly in hindsight, because they never seriously questioned what they understood within their school of learning.

Ya Im a sensitive soul yet I have strengths too just as you do.

Look concerning the Jew. Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth, "But we preach [Messiah] crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block ..." (1 Corinthians 1:23). The stumbling block the Jews faced was not the mode of communication - PREACHING, nor was it the subject - MASHIACH; no the obstacle lay in one descriptive word - CRUCIFIED.

The Jewish people of the first century were anticipating a Messiah who would come in the train of David; One who would appear in power and majesty ; a Messiah who would deliever them from the oppressive heel ofthe hated Romans. A crucified Messiah was, therefore, to the Jewish mind unintelligible and to his heart distasteful - an inexplicable enigma that cut across everything he had been taught and which he believed. In fact that the Messiah must first suffer and die for the worlds sins before reestablishing the Davidic kingdom escaped the Jewish leadership.

Even though I don't yet see what you see, it is another possible interpretation, something to be pondered and pigeon-holed and held up now and then to see if it matches against future events, so, thank you :) Now me and my 'dingo' will depart. Hmph.

Let me know what you learn.

[She-Wolf]

Rockstar, I haven't, as yet, got around to identifying King Neb with the King of the North. I see that prophecy to be well beyond Neb's time, and if one matches the events of that time to those nations that are portrayed as the silver and bronze kingdoms that rose after Nebuchadnezzar, historically that title would have been given to one of either the Ptolemaic or Seleucid kings, as I understand it, and the future events between the 'King of the South' and the 'King of the North' as described in Daniel 11 do seem to check out with the happenings of history. Nebuchadnezzar of course was long dead by then.

I do not see Antiochus in Daniel, as you say, though there is plenty about him in Maccabees. I was not meaning that he was mentioned in Daniel. My wondering was how you fit him into the fabric of events, as you see them, and, how you see his end-time counterpart, of whom he seems to have been a type. The Ptolemies or Seleucid kings were north of Jerusalem, and Egypt is south.

Daniel Chapter 8 carries on from Chapter 7 in the sense that Daniel has another vision two years later, in the third year of Belshazzar, just as he had a vision in the first year of that king in Chapter 7 - is that what you mean?

Rockstar, we could debate this subject til Christmas but I prefer to leave it at that. I am not very comfortable about discussing scripture here, as I have already said. I hope you understand and allow me to retire gracefuly from the scene.

[geetrue]

The first time I read Daniel chapter 11 I thought it was just a present day prophecy (in the year 539 BC) based on something that would happen soon such as Alexander the Great 200 years later, but while reading and thinking this is old stuff of no use to me ... wham! All of a sudden the document of Daniel chapter 11 just goes right into what can only be described as the end of time as man knows it.

No wonder God had the information sealed. The visions of Daniel would have made many more wise than they really were, yet Gods plan includes a struggle of knowledge to lead to understanding that in turn if exercised properly will be your wisdom.

Here's where the change seems to take place in Daniel 11 from old prophecies that surely took place in BC to prophecies that have yet to come to pass.

Daniel 11:27-29

27 Both these kings’ hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.
28 While returning to his land with great riches, his heart shall be moved against the holy covenant; so he shall do damage and return to his own land.
29“At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter.

Then again Daniel 11:32-37


32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.
33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.
34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.
35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

Spells anti-christ to me :yep:

[Fish]

OT I am afraid but interesting I think for the 'followers' of this thread.

Amherst, New York (December 08, 2008)—Scholars gathered this past weekend, December 5-7, in Amherst, New York, for the inaugural meeting of The Jesus Project in a renewed quest for the historical Jesus. The project, sponsored by the secular think tank Center for Inquiry and its Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion (CSER), is an effort by historians, biblical scholars, and theologians to determine what can be reliably recovered about the historical figure of Jesus, his life, his teachings, and his activities, utilizing the highest standards of scientific and scholarly objectivity.

An earlier inquiry, "The Jesus Seminar," founded by Professor Robert Funk in 1985, concerned itself primarily with the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels and related sources. Dr. R. Joseph Hoffmann, chair of the Project and CSER, said that the "The Jesus Seminar had difficulty separating itself from the faith commitments of its members. Its agenda was not exclusively, but in large measure theologically driven. Its conclusions and methods raised more questions than they answered."

The project has drawn together a diverse and rich group of scholars, including, among others Gerd Lüdemann, Paul Kurtz, Robert Price, James Tabor, Robert Eisenman, David Trobisch, Bruce Chilton, Dennis MacDonald, and R. Joseph Hoffmann.
At the session this past weekend, participants agreed that a rigorous scientific inquiry was needed, and that the Project would be committed to a position of neutrality towards the sources used as "evidence" for the Jesus tradition. Participants represent a wide variety of perspectives, ranging from Tabor's argument that there is substantial evidence that the tomb of the family of Jesus has been located, to the view that the evidence for the existence of Jesus as an historical figure is not persuasive. "Jesus remains after 2,000 years the most fascinating figure of Western civilization," said James Tabor, author of The Jesus Dynasty: A New Historical Investigation of Jesus, His Royal Family, and the Birth of Christianity. "Scholars now at the beginning of the twenty-first century are able to take advantage of a plethora of new texts, sources, and methods, including the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, various lost Gospels that are not in our New Testament, and a rich archaeological record." Tabor says that scholars today find themselves uniquely positioned to examine the issue of who Jesus was in new and challenging ways. During the closing conference round-table, Tabor was quick to emphasize that "the Jesus Project repudiates any theological agendas, special pleading, or dogmatic presuppositions." All members of the project share a common commitment to the importance of applying scientific methodologies to the sources used to construct the Jesus tradition.

The Project has outlined a set of priorities for its next meetings, including a "consistent" translation of the Gospels, an inquiry into the causes of the canonization of the existing New Testament documents, parallels between Islam and early Christianity in delineating its sacred books, and the need to carve a middle path between what Hoffmann describes as "Da Vinci Code sensationalism and the truly fascinating story that underlies the history of Christianity."

Papers delivered at the conference will be published under the title "Sources of the Jesus Tradition: An Inquiry," by Prometheus Books in 2009. The Project's next conference is scheduled tentatively for May 2009 in Chicago.


http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wbfo/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1432152

[Iceman]

OT I am afraid but interesting I think for the 'followers' of this thread.

Amherst, New York (December 08, 2008)—Scholars gathered this past weekend, December 5-7, in Amherst, New York, for the inaugural meeting of The Jesus Project in a renewed quest for the historical Jesus. The project, sponsored by the secular think tank Center for Inquiry and its Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion (CSER), is an effort by historians, biblical scholars, and theologians to determine what can be reliably recovered about the historical figure of Jesus, his life, his teachings, and his activities, utilizing the highest standards of scientific and scholarly objectivity.

An earlier inquiry, "The Jesus Seminar," founded by Professor Robert Funk in 1985, concerned itself primarily with the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels and related sources. Dr. R. Joseph Hoffmann, chair of the Project and CSER, said that the "The Jesus Seminar had difficulty separating itself from the faith commitments of its members. Its agenda was not exclusively, but in large measure theologically driven. Its conclusions and methods raised more questions than they answered."

The project has drawn together a diverse and rich group of scholars, including, among others Gerd Lüdemann, Paul Kurtz, Robert Price, James Tabor, Robert Eisenman, David Trobisch, Bruce Chilton, Dennis MacDonald, and R. Joseph Hoffmann.
At the session this past weekend, participants agreed that a rigorous scientific inquiry was needed, and that the Project would be committed to a position of neutrality towards the sources used as "evidence" for the Jesus tradition. Participants represent a wide variety of perspectives, ranging from Tabor's argument that there is substantial evidence that the tomb of the family of Jesus has been located, to the view that the evidence for the existence of Jesus as an historical figure is not persuasive. "Jesus remains after 2,000 years the most fascinating figure of Western civilization," said James Tabor, author of The Jesus Dynasty: A New Historical Investigation of Jesus, His Royal Family, and the Birth of Christianity. "Scholars now at the beginning of the twenty-first century are able to take advantage of a plethora of new texts, sources, and methods, including the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, various lost Gospels that are not in our New Testament, and a rich archaeological record." Tabor says that scholars today find themselves uniquely positioned to examine the issue of who Jesus was in new and challenging ways. During the closing conference round-table, Tabor was quick to emphasize that "the Jesus Project repudiates any theological agendas, special pleading, or dogmatic presuppositions." All members of the project share a common commitment to the importance of applying scientific methodologies to the sources used to construct the Jesus tradition.

The Project has outlined a set of priorities for its next meetings, including a "consistent" translation of the Gospels, an inquiry into the causes of the canonization of the existing New Testament documents, parallels between Islam and early Christianity in delineating its sacred books, and the need to carve a middle path between what Hoffmann describes as "Da Vinci Code sensationalism and the truly fascinating story that underlies the history of Christianity."

Papers delivered at the conference will be published under the title "Sources of the Jesus Tradition: An Inquiry," by Prometheus Books in 2009. The Project's next conference is scheduled tentatively for May 2009 in Chicago.


http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wbfo/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1432152

?...did i miss something in this post...please dont come to this thread just to bag on someone or something but if you have something actually to offer like you did in your previous post then cool...the thread is about the book of Daniel in the Bible...please lets all keep on topic if we can. :)...unless I am missing something in your short post please point it out to my simple mind that is relevant to the thread topic...the Book of Daniel is not in the New Testament in case anyone did not know that...

[Rockstar]

The first time I read Daniel chapter 11 I thought it was just a present day prophecy (in the year 539 BC) based on something that would happen soon such as Alexander the Great 200 years later, but while reading and thinking this is old stuff of no use to me ... wham! All of a sudden the document of Daniel chapter 11 just goes right into what can only be described as the end of time as man knows it.

No wonder God had the information sealed. The visions of Daniel would have made many more wise than they really were, yet Gods plan includes a struggle of knowledge to lead to understanding that in turn if exercised properly will be your wisdom.

Here's where the change seems to take place in Daniel 11 from old prophecies that surely took place in BC to prophecies that have yet to come to pass.

Daniel 11:27-29

27 Both these kings’ hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.
28 While returning to his land with great riches, his heart shall be moved against the holy covenant; so he shall do damage and return to his own land.
29“At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter.

Then again Daniel 11:32-37


32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.

33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.
34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.
35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

Spells anti-christ to me :yep:


Chapter 11 is interesting because it pin points the region from which he comes. 11 starts with the defeat of Cyrus by Alexander then the division of Alexanders kingdom into four portions. From there it speaks of two kings the king of the south and the king of the north. Why these two? they directly affect Jerusalem. There are leagues and conflicts between these two for ages. Then at verse 21 the last king of the north is spoken of after him comes Christ. This kingom of the north is I believe the region of the old Seluicids. Modern day Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Turkey. Which are also the same ones listed by their old names in Ezekiel 38 & 39