How to avoid AI detection when in time compression?

[subbubble]

Hi all. I'm really new posting here but I always read here how to play the game. I'm playing the default game for a year and I'm tired of being detected while positioning far ahead of a convoy (more than 20 km). Usually I get the contact of the convoy in the map, plot a route to get into the path of the convoy 20 km before it arrives and wait there stopped until I start geting sonar contacts. But always the convoy seems to detect me and somehow knows I'm there and starts zig-zaging about 5 km before the point I planned to attack.

Do you know how can I disable the automatic detection of my submarine while in TC or any way to avoid it? I don't want to spend three hours trying to put myself in a good solution in real time. Thank you.

[Capt. Shark Bait]

in TC i don't think it can be done. as for being dectected too soon, get beneath the layer, you'll be informed of when you are, and rig for silent running. next, hope they don't find you:ping: . the layer isusually 150-200' down

[subbubble]

Thanks for the fast answering.
I find it's in near all situations impossible to catch a map convoy in silent running speed (I think 3 knots).

That's a real gamebreaker for me because you have to approach the convoy for at least visual contact in 1 time compression and at silent running speed. Sure 2 hours in order to get a succes position :nope:.

The problem is that in near all attemps I get detected at very long distances (more than 20 km) when I approach the convoy path. They seem to mark my position in the map and start zaging when they get into visual distance.

I'm good in vector maths and single merchants are doomed when I get their map or sonar contacts, but convoys always zig-zag after a time compression approach-and-waiting strategy. Do you find the same problem?

Is there any mod where you can turn on/off the AI sonar detection?

[Soundman]

We might need some more info to help you here, a lot depends on what mods you may be using. There is no way to turn off detection and some mods are set to be more difficult than others. You can search for threads that will tell you how to change the difficulty settings, but without a good challenge, the game will become quite boring IMO.

I assume by what you have said that you are positioned and sitting still waiting on the convoy. That's a good approach. I have two suggestions to try. Keep your scope as low in the water, and as short a period of time exposed as possible. If it is escorts that are detecting you, you may need to set up your position to enable a longer shot i.e., keep further away from their path. Again it depends on what mod you may have, but I use TMO and the escorts are tough. I usually find it neccessary to set up for a 3500 yard shot to remain undetected by them, and that's not always reliable, but usually works for me. If they do detect me, I have to decide whether to evade or fight. The fighting is usually more fun, and if that is the route I decide to take, it means a "down the throat" shot at the DD. A lot of fun, but risky. I have found about a 80% success rate with this procedure, and with some practice, so could you. Just set up for a zero degree shot and keep the DD in the crosshairs with small rudder adjustments and when he's about 800 yards from you let it fly. If you want more insurance, Fire one just to the left of his bow, and the other to the right. The advantage of the latter is, if he tries to evade, one of the fish will hit. Be aware, if you miss.......better dive quick ! Of course, that's when a save comes in handy, you can practice till you get it right. :up:

[subbubble]

I'm playing the game without mods and extensions, but fully patched.

My strategy is always to calculate the interception route with at least 20 km ahead of the leading escort. Then I travel fast in time compression and stop 5 or 6 km away the calculated path of the convoy and dive under the termal layer. Now it's time to wait. Turn on the time compression (about 128x) and wait for the first sonar contact. Follow the contact in the sonar room and when they get in visual range I can hear the accelerations and bearing changes of the leading scort zaging. When all the merchants come visual contacts they zig-zag too because they know I'm there. It's annoying.

I only want to turn off their "always-detect-your-sound-at-very-large-distance-while-in-TC" sensor when I'm fast travelling.

[banjo]

Another thing to do, and I don't know if this actually works in the game or not, is once you've got a good track established for the convoy, turn off your radar. I am not sure whether or not the Japs in the game can detect radar, but it is something to try.

[wireman]

Are they zig-zagging or is it a planned course change? I have spent alot of time on end arounds only to have the target (s) do a course change with no zig-zagging. I then have to do a new end around.

[subbubble]

They are zig-zaging but no course-changing.

I'm sure the game it's detecting me at insane distance when I'm fast travelling in time compression.

[Loud_Silence]

They are zig-zaging but no course-changing.

I'm sure the game it's detecting me at insane distance when I'm fast travelling in time compression.
Let's bring that paranoia down. Randomly, the escorts start zigzaging and then go back to their initial positions after some time. Late in the war, i've not been detected at silent running, ahead slow, at periscope depth, until im very close to one of the escorts, about 5NM away. Any faster at less than 8NM will make you easy to detect. Some Akitzuki DDs have radar, and they will detect you if you're surfaced at less than 8NM away from them.
What i do is plotting the precise course of the center line of freighters on the convoy, and then, if im not close to them, move at ahead flank to an interception point. I draw a 3500yd circle around the interception point and wait there at 45ft, so the radar antena doesnt go underwater. When my sonarman has contacts, i go to PD and rise the attack periscope. Then, its all prepare, aim and shoot.
The most important part on interceptions is knowing if i will get there in time close enough. If you have no time, just go deep, leave the zone and try again farther away. If you are out of range for a good shot, trying to move to a good position at ahead slow is stupid, because you will not get there, and is highly probable that the escorts will detect you.
And really, the escorts havent detected you at extreme distances. Don't be paranoid;)

[Beardy Bob Black]

If you get the chance, sacrifice a good opportunity to test if you are being detected or whether the convoy is just following standard procedures.

Get into a good intercept position and go deep - at least below the thermocline.

Sit stationary and at silent running.

If you are being detected then the convoy should bear away from you - if not then they will pass you.

Remember that sometimes the DDs will be pinging but this does not mean they have detected you.

XO, bring me the earplugs and set for silent running ...

[CaptainHaplo]

Here is the problem - the key is TIME COMPRESSION. When you kick in time compression, the normal math formulas the game uses for detection are not used like they are at lower speeds. At most do not go above 4 or 8x. Honestly I would say don't use it at all - but I know that for some the "super slow" speed of "realtime" isn't what they want to play for.

I have a .... working hypothosis on how the game does this. The game randomizes somewhat - but basically is extrapolates a "range" of noise levels that you "might" make - at which point it compares that to the detection values required. Because its at TC - the detection values are increased greatly to compensate. This is valid as otherwise at high tc and low speed you would be undetectable. However, what it creates is a situation where as you get higher and higher TC values - you also get lower and lower "real" detection thresholds - to the point that even dead stopped at silent running you can be detected below the layer at long ranges.

Remember that - while this is a hypothosis only - every test I have done indicates that I am correct. I strongly suggest that - if your 20km out and on the line of the TF or convoy, go ahead and turn toward them and close that distance on the surface - as the above only applies to subsurface detection. You can safely use some TC like this - 32 or 64 - until you get near visual range - about 10km. At that point go ahead and dive, go to Silent Running and turn TC either off entirely, or down to as minimal as you can stand it.

Your facing 2 issues - your range is so high that you need TC to make the attack "playable" at some very soon time, and your fighting the natural gamer instinct of "I want to do this now!" - both of which mean your reaching for the + key by default.

USE TC on the surface to close the gap - and consider the remaining "slow time" a realistic attack and part of the fun. As long as you don't use TC "waiting" on the enemy to approach - you should be ok.

[peabody]

<snip>Now it's time to wait. Turn on the time compression (about 128x) and wait for the first sonar contact. Follow the contact in the sonar room and when they get in visual range I can hear the accelerations and bearing changes <snip>
If I read that right you are 128X TC until visual contact? Even the first Sonar Contact at 128X can get you detected. Another thing to remember, the first contact is not necessarily the closest ship to you.

It is my opinion and absolutely no evidence to back it up, but I think that the Devs did that on purpose so it would be a sub sim and not an arcade game. So you can't TC until it is time to shoot.

Edit: Captainhaplo posted while I was typing and that makes a lot of sense, because I also can verify that time compression at full stop will get you detected. (at least 128x will 4X might not) I am working on a Campaign and I use TC a lot to get to the part I want to test and end up with a lot of detections.

Another way to check if it is zig-zag or detection, leave your external camera on to test and pop up and check the DDs. If their contact/alert lights are flashing, you have been detected. Someone actually read the morse code and I think he said they are sending "contact". (don't remember exactly is that was it but was the same meaning.)

Peabody

[subbubble]

Uhmm, Captainhaplo, I agree with you. That's the way it seems to work. I will attack the lonely merchants for fast attacks and leave the convoys for a 3-4 hours of patience-in-the-weekend assault.

[Loud_Silence]

Well... i've never used a TC higher than 256 when a convoy is near (specially because there's a huge performance drop faster than that), or more than 16 when i see the escort DD's crew faces:o I've never had any problems with "superhuman perception" with that settings.

[CaptainHaplo]

SubBubble - one note - you can use High TC at will when you near a single merchant and are submerged - the reason being that a merchant has no passive or active sonar gear - and so as long as your underwater your undetectable regardless of TC. A merchant will only zigzag when it either spots you visually, spots a torpedo wake visually, or when warned by a nearby ship that detects the same (or goes boom).

[AngronIsAngry]

This may sound odd, but do you have your gramaphone playing?

In another thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=145251) it is said, that the enemy can hear you playing the gramophone. Now, that equally surprised & amazed & shocked me to be implemented, as well as it explained why on some convoys I got detected and on some I didn't and I consider myself an abuser of the time compression feature.

I just hope I ll never get detected for sneezing behind the keyboard.

[magic452]

I think that the AI does different things at high TC.
I once came across the Yamato and 2 DDs Line astern.
I got 6 fish into Yamato's port side and reduced her to 6 Knots.
Got away from the DDs and started another end around.
Went to 64 or 128 TC and all the sudden the Yamato and the DDs
went line astern at 18 Knots like nothing had happened.

I had saved when I surfaced so I went back to the save and did the
runaround at 8x TC and got a completely different outcome, Yamato
continued on a 6 Knots with only the one DD astern, the other stayed at the
original attack point. Got my last 5 fish into her and she went down.
If it had been anything other that the Yamato I wouldn't have redone it
from a save so I would not normally notice this kind of thing.

I also think CaptinHaplo is correct about high TC I've noticed the same things.
I never end around ant higher than 16X.

Magic 452
Sink all but six and save them for pallbearers.