America = doomed (merged many times)

[Skybird]

General Patreus short time ago admitted that the afghanistan war is likely to become the longest war in the history of the US. With Pakistan being on the brink of becoming a no longer functioning state anymore, the region promises to become the most difficult and threatening problem of american foreign policy. And I would not rule out at all that the future will bring major military engagement not only on the soil of Pakistan but against Pakistan itself. With recent terror strike taking place inside pakistan, foreign investors start to avoid the country. On the other hand, China seem to be willing to take over their role and pay for the ticket of enjoyng a place in the first row to observe how the west is struggling and looses ressources whose absence in other fields make Chinese soft powerpolitics easier to succeed.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-584616,00.html


At almost the same time, a diplomatic briefing between the British ambassador in Kabul, a man known for his directness, and a French diplomat was leaked. Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles said the current situation in Afghanistan was "bad; the security situation is getting worse -- so is corruption -- and the government (of President Hamid Karzai) has lost all trust." The American strategy, he said, "is doomed to fail."

Internally, US intelligence agents have arrived at a similar assessment. In the most thorough analysis of the war in Afghanistan to date, the National Intelligence Estimate, which is to be released after the US presidential election in November, the 16 US intelligence services involved write that Afghanistan is in a dangerous "downward spiral." The report mentions mounting violence and a government consumed by corruption and barely capable of resisting the Taliban uprising. Last Thursday Admiral Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the US Armed Forces, spoke of a similarly poor outlook when he predicted that the situation would become even worse next year.

Trapped in the Afghan maze.

Some days ago it was reported that NATO troops now should engage in supressing and battling the farming of poppy. If that becomes true and the loss of money will be felt by the big names in business (and that are mostly not the Taleban anymore, but "private" warlords), tis will become real fun, for these people do not need to just accept the destruction of their income basis, and suffient numbers of those who so far kept out of taking sides in the fighting will then chose sides and make the change a reality in the battles on the ground that NATO will bring to struggling even more. Add to that the hidh level of corruption within the Karzai government, which had been a problem with this man since he was implemented.

Also, there is still no functioning plan how to make the farmers farm different products so that they have an income to feed their families. the agricultural competitveness of them had been shattered by establishing trade patterns that shipped plenty of foreign grain into the country, by control of the UN, so that the prices the Afghnaistan farmers would need to demand were so high in comparison to the cheaper import that nobody could or would buy from them, and so they turned for poppy. If you take away poppy, you will have a similiar effect like after disb anding the Iraqui army: you suddenly will have hundreds of thousands of desperate men with weapons who need to bring the bread home for their family, and thus willthink twice to fight for the taleban and the warlords for a small fee, and also to defend that remaining rest of their pride. The Afghan society is relatively young. Young men are over-represented in it's society.

The taleban will love to see NATO destroying poppy fields. NATO could as well offer the farmer a reward if they would join the taleban in fighting. On the other hand, the country has once again become the greatets poppy producer in the world, and that stuff lands on Wetsern streets, fuels Western organised crime and killes Wetsenr young people. So, whatever you do regarding poppy, you are doomed.

Trapped in the Afghan maze.

Nevertheless the german government, having no real longterm strategy anymore, and at home in berlin suffering from seriously distorted illusions, voted to send 1000 more troops. Just what realistically is to be acchieved in Afghanistan, on that nobody had to say a single word different from the usual braindead propaganda slogans. They probably wait for the good fairy to clean up their mess, or hope for an invasion from Planet Mars to establish a new world order, and until then hope to sit it out.

In recent time there seems a parallel to the Iraq war emerging that so far has not been spend much attention to: the lack of longterm planning for the time after the field battle. In Iraq, this lack of preparation and realoistic plans that took into account the realities on the ground decided the failure of the war already on the first day of the field battle. In Afghanistan, off-reality expectations and totally surreal assumptions as well as failures in support and ensuring a tough fight against corruption let the opportunity window close over a slightly longer period of time, but now it is obvious that it is shut. The chances for a "win" in Afghanistan (a not too hostile to the West government in command that is accepted and has enough authpority to prevent corruption and to stand above the local ethnic tensions) I initially estimated to be 30-50% at best, but now I see these chances to be almost non-existant. The point is - Afghanistan, like Iraq, is a homemade-failure. and nobody seems to have an exit-strategy. you do damage by staying, and you do damage by leaving.

Trapped in the Afghan maze.

[August]

Sounds like someone is "trapped in the Spiegel maze" more like. No wonder they've lost all their wars... :roll:

[Frame57]

And still no one has taken me up on the idea of putting bombs on mountain goats to end this thing in a fair and balanced way...

[PeriscopeDepth]

Add to this an unfinished NIE that says Pakistan is on the brink. The Pakistan/Afganistan area is worse off and more dangerous than Iraq IMO.

PD

[Diopos]

They should've had a plan about the "puppy" from day one. Let's hope they'll cook up something good. Iraq and Afganistan was never a military issue (well if you're the US that is :yep: ) it was always about the "next day". Does anybody believe they actually had a plan for it? Or that they were "adaptive" enough? :hmm:

[Skybird]

They should've had a plan about the "puppy" from day one. Let's hope they'll cook up something good. Iraq and Afganistan was never a military issue (well if you're the US that is :yep: ) it was always about the "next day". Does anybody believe they actually had a plan for it? Or that they were "adaptive" enough? :hmm:
As you can see in the prize-awared documentary I had linked, and could have seen from many other sources as well as from just observing the obvious, they did not have a plan. Insiders working for the government as commandig authorities at location confirm that. All they had was a presdient leaving the decision making to others, and Rumsfeld and his demagogic talent. "I don't do quagmires", as he insisted. :dead:

I think both Obama and McCain were successful to let these two burning problems of foreign politics slip below the radar of election campaigning, surprisingly. Reason would have expected these problems to be a decisive key issue. Instead, it is almost unimporant, it seems.

Whoever looses the election, probably will be happy to have avoided needing to deal with these issues for real. While the winner will curse them.

[Skybird]

Now Gen. Craddock joins the chorus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7681166.stm

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,590891,00.html

a number of investigative teams from the EU and NATO have flown to Tallinn to probe the extent of the intelligence disaster. The investigation is being led by the NATO Office for Security, which is headed by an American official. As investigators pursue their work, they continue to unearth mounting evidence pointing to the enormity of the betrayal. A German government official has called the situation a "catastrophe," and Jaanus Rahumägi, a member of Estonia's national parliament who heads the parliamentary oversight committee for the government security agency, fears "historic damage."

Game and set - Russia.

Schei$$e. :dead:

[August]

NOFORN doesn't sound that stupid anymore, now does it?

[Jimbuna]

This is what happens when players are given disproportionate positions to what there actual contribution merits/warrants.

I suppose Eisenhower as Supreme Allied Commander for Overlord is a good example of how it should be done.

[Brag]

Very interesting article. :up:

[Rockstar]

"he had access to nearly all documents exchanged within the EU and NATO" Ya some nobody from Estonia would be given access to everything, right. He may have gotten hold of several specific pieces of information and passed it on but nearly everything? Why would anyone agency allow one nobody from Estonia handle all the classified information?

Now that Mr. Obama is their dream come true the Euros are just promoting a scare piece to get the EU public stirred up over a new boogie man. Fear sells. Just like the politicians jamming bail outs down the throats of the public here. Fear sells.

[Skybird]

I already read this in the German version yesterday, and I liked it:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-591104,00.html

[August]

What drivel...

[Skybird]

Can't one just shoot this bunch of criminal pathologic egoists? Why are we expected to let them continue destroying our societies?

They are truly the cyanide of this modern world.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_48/b4110036448352.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_news+%2B+analysis


FHA-Backed Loans: The New Subprime

The same people whose reckless practices triggered the global financial crisis are onto a similar scheme that could cost taxpayers tons more

As if they haven't done enough damage. Thousands of subprime mortgage lenders and brokers—many of them the very sorts of firms that helped create the current financial crisis—are going strong. Their new strategy: taking advantage of a long-standing federal program designed to encourage homeownership by insuring mortgages for buyers of modest means.

You read that correctly. Some of the same people who propelled us toward the housing market calamity are now seeking to profit by exploiting billions in federally insured mortgages. Washington, meanwhile, has vastly expanded the availability of such taxpayer-backed loans as part of the emergency campaign to rescue the country's swooning economy.

For generations, these loans, backed by the Federal Housing Administration, have offered working-class families a legitimate means to purchase their own homes. But now there's a severe danger that aggressive lenders and brokers schooled in the rash ways of the subprime industry will overwhelm the FHA with loans for people unlikely to make their payments. Exacerbating matters, FHA officials seem oblivious to what's happening—or incapable of stopping it. They're giving mortgage firms licenses to dole out 100%-insured loans despite lender records blotted by state sanctions, bankruptcy filings, civil lawsuits, and even criminal convictions.

More good news from the wonderful world of unregulated market economy. rules for business? Are we totalitarian communists...? :88)

Well, in the end it is the logical conseqeunces of a system that declares unlimited selfishness a virtue and claims that it is the only way to do business. that it not only allows deformations like these practices, but even encourages, and even demands and commands them, is just a logical consequence if the law of the strongest is valid and egoism at the cost of the community is rewarded.

We now earn what we deserve. And the more we defend this system, the more we deserve to be betrayed by it. that the system in the long run simply does not function, and necessarily will bring the society running it to a fall, is an almost unimportant - at best: curious - foot note of history already. when you object regulations completely, you get anarchy. And anarchy does not build, but brings down.

[FIREWALL]

It's not a matter how smart you are anymore. :nope:

It's how smart you are a Stealing now. :yep: :down:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Hello sky:D

You probably won't be surprised to learn that I see something totally different here.

It seems apparent to me that the cause is not deregulation but rather, excessive regulation. You may or may not remember some of my rants prior to and during the bailout debacle, where I basically said that this sort of thing was bound to happen. The first crisis wasn't brought about due to lack of government intervention, but because of it.

The problem comes when the government removes incentive by lessening the penalties for failure. You are correct in saying that an unregulated market is governed by selfishness. Indeed, a great many things are. So why would it surprise anyone when selfish individuals take the opportunity to profit and then let the state cover their failures with everyone else's money?

The beauty of a truly free market (which admittedly, must have limited, but strong, anti-fraud and anti-theft regulation) is that these people can't pawn off their failures. They get stuck with them unless they can sell them to someone else. If a business disappoints customers, it loses customers and it goes out of business. . Of course, in America's heavily-regulated economy, that doesn't always apply. Just look at General Motors or American Airlines. Both cost the taxpayers billions that they otherwise wouldn't have because the Feds stepped in to help them out with our money.

The key to the market is incentive (selfishness, if you prefer). The freedom to fail or prosper is the incentive. Remove or hinder either, and the market becomes ineffecient. It doesn't cycle the way it should. You wouldn't interfere with an ecosystem and expect it to function normally would you? The market is no different. It has good times and bad times, but it always grows.

Finally, remember that this country has not had a truly free-market economy that was largely independent of government since the second founding of the federally-sponsored central bank, which immediately set about mucking up the money supply and interfering with prices.

I know that you are aware of the dangers of plutocracy, so I'm confused as to how you could ever speak about deregulation as if it were a bad thing (except from an environmental perspective, of course, which is another discussion.) I mean, that would be combining the fiat powers of state over policy and money with extremely wealthy businessmen. How could it be any more plutocratic?

What system, exactly, would you like to see? A link is ok if you have typed it out before:up:

[Sailor Steve]

Dang, JM, you done it again!:rock:

[SteamWake]

The first crisis wasn't brought about due to lack of government intervention, but because of it.

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell.

[bookworm_020]

The fact the regulations are lax enough to allow loans to people who can't afford them is the real cause of the problem. Untill this is delt with, the situation will not improve.

The fact that subprime loans make up such a large part of the loan market is a massive cause for concern. Here in Australia, Sub prime loans barely make up 0.1% of the overall loan market. This has ment bank and non bank lenders have had less loans failing than elsewhere (it has increased in the last couple of years, but 95% of loan still are going OK)

You don't have to stiffle the market, just make sure the market act with better control so things don't get as bad as they have. Sometimes letting a few of these companies fall will help remind others that if they play with fire, they too can crash and burn.

[UnderseaLcpl]

The fact the regulations are lax enough to allow loans to people who can't afford them is the real cause of the problem. Untill this is delt with, the situation will not improve.


The incentive of failure is the only regulation that needs to be enacted, and the market has that already except where the state mucks it up. If they didn't have the reassurance that the Fed will bail out bad loans or purchase them (in some circumstances), there would be a lot less reason to accept subprime lenders. And yes, some people would still take on that high-risk venture, and eventually be rewarded with bankruptcy.

As far as loans to people who can't afford them goes, that would be an extraordinarily difficult to construct, and ultimately ineffective piece of legislation. For one thing, loans, by their very definition, go to people who can't afford the principle right now (Sorry, it's fun to be a smartass sometimes:D )
In addition, there are a lot of low-income families and individuals who need loans. Blanket legeislation about loan eligibility would hurt them a lot. What if a young person needs a loan for a car so they can go to work? A bank could look at that person, their credit history and any factors that may warrant explanation, and talk with them face to face to determine eligibility. A law can't do that.

Another important factor is the Federal Reserve's tampering with interest rates. Gnerally speaking, at least from the Austrian and Chicagoan schools of economics' points of view, when interest rates rise, the economy slows down before recovering and pushing ahead to the next bull market. Since the Fed sets interest rates under the guise of controlling inflation or spurring economic growth, they tamper with this cycle. When it is set too low, it encourages lending and therefore expansion of the money supply, often outpacing the value of alll national commerce and resulting in inflation. (Different economists prefer different methods for measuring this, GDP and GNP being two of the most popular. Others prefer time-based economic growth indexes and the like)

Of course, the Fed can't keep rates low forever, and the more they artificially inflate the economy, the farther down it has to go to before it settles into its' natural cycle. If the Fed continues lowering rates beyond this point, runaway inflation results from borrowers scrambling to accquire loans to pay off creditors, a natural consequence of trying to cram too much commerce into a national pool of resources that can only support so much at one time. (Their ventures fail because of increasing prices of goods, labor, too much competition, lack of demand, etc.) This period usually precedes an economic crash or severe recession as the means of capital generation equalize with the money supply.

Also, let's not forget Federal legislation to encourage subprime lending like the CRA and Fair Lending. Estimates typically put as much as 40% or as little as 20% of bad loans into this category. Certainly not the majority of them, but a significant chunk nonetheless.

So basically, there is a lot of regulation going on that is not helpful at all, and not a lot of interest in restoring the powerful self-regulatory forces of the market.

Finally, there's the all-important consideration that we know what happens when the government gets its' hands in things. I suspect that finding an American who believes that their government is efficient and effective would be something of a rarity. As such, why on earth would you ever let them have any kind of direct role in the management of something so central to the economy as lending? Unless, of course, you want an inefficient and ineffective economy.
It might also be worth noting the correaltion between the nations listed highest one the index of economic freedom and the nations with the highest PPP (Purchasing Power per Capita) GDP per capita, and average annual income. (Norway being one notable exception, and remmber that we are talking about economic freedom, not necessarily the left or right wing affiliation of the government. Believe it or not, welfare states can coexsist with economic freedom, to a degree. Of course, they never do as well as lassiez-faire states, but that's another matter)

On the bright side of things, the inevitable onslaught of banking regulations, controls, and economy-punishing legislation that is sure to assail us before long will be of great benefit to business lawyers, God bless their dear souls, and that's something we can all be happy about:down:

[AntEater]

The argument "but the US doesn't have a really free market" sounds like the old "but the USSR didn't really have communism" argument to me
:rotfl:
Apart from parts of "new" europe and the UK, the US has the least regulated economy on the globe.
Aside of course from Somalia...

I think the US has regulations because at a certain level, a society needs them.
Totally free capitalism might work in Hayek's (or was it Friedman) famous Island, or in the society the founding fathers of the US lived in.
A bit like anarchism, which works just fine in a siberian village.

[Skybird]

summary:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/20/barack-obama-president-intelligence-agency

original document:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2008/11/20/GlobalTrends2025_FINAL.pdf

Double trouble for America, since demograpohs show that around 2040 white Americans will no longer form the majority of the american population, since more and more non-white immigration into the US takes place. As the Southern Poverty Law Centre in Alabama and the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino, show in their releases, publications and interviews with their leading heads, the (often seen before in history) counter-reaction of growing racism, and ideologies basing on Nazism, KKK-propagated supremacy of white race and growing racist hositlity against president elect Obama, already have switched into higher gear in reaction to the election result, with some Nazi groups ironically applauding Obama, for he will make things so bad for white man that the white population will see its mistake sooner or later and then strike back at non-whites even stronger, these sickos say.

Dominance fading, unilateralism passé, a black man president in the White house, whites loosing numeric dominance in US society, economy fumbling, finance model failing, skyrocketing debts and a de facto state-bankruptcy, making the nation depending on the good will of the rest of the globe paying for it's bills - white America is heading right into a massive identity crisis. After the Reagan years and Bush's new world order and the neocons' project for an American century, this is going to be a rude wakeup-call to harsh reality that has little in mind with this self-glorification.

And the longer America keeps on denying this trend, the stronger the rest of the world will be affected for the worse from this stubborn patient fighting against accepting unwelcomed realities and the simple fact that it's excessive way of life is suffering from threatening health problems. that's why the world should use sticks and carrots to make america to learn faster and adapt to reality instead of trying to make the world adapting to america. We cannot afford to always wait until the mess has been done, and then repairing the damage behind. Prevention is easier, and cheaper.

[Skybird]

However, reading some comments here convinces me that we need more of what has brought us right into the current credit crisis. :88) Let's repeat the old mistakes again, comrades, but this time with greater élan and determination! We can reach the 100 trillion debt mark for sure, yes we can! :up:

An autobahn without traffic rules and speed limits and everybody racing at will with 220 km/h is a safe autobahn. :know:
Free ride for free citizens! :up: Be patriotic - drive fast!

[August]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?

[AntEater]

This comes from the NIC, which is the coordinating body of the CIA and the other US intelligence services.
This is not a leftist whacko theory but the official analysis of the leaders of the US intelligence communtiy.
Don't shoot the messenger
;)

On the other hand, Europe won't be in too great a shape either.
They predict India and China, possibly Russia (if they can fix everything that needs fixing) as equal players, with Iran, Turkey and others as new regional powers.

[UnderseaLcpl]

However, reading some comments here convinces me that we need more of what has brought us right into the current credit crisis. :88) Let's repeat the old mistakes again, comrades, but this time with greater élan and determination! We can reach the 100 trillion debt mark for sure, yes we can! :up:

An autobahn without traffic rules and speed limits and everybody racing at will with 220 km/h is a safe autobahn. :know: Free ride for free citizens! :up:

Very cute, sky:rotfl:

I can only assume that you're talking to me, since everyone here either agrees with you to some extent or with me to some extent.

Still, I have a lot of respect for your perspectives, no matter how much they may vary from mine, since you're obviously an intelligent person. So, how's about a little more detailed summary of how you could expect anything other than minimally-regulated capitalism to work, and maybe a few less poor analogies?:D
Surely, you must realize that if I make the argument that we're doing the same thing we've been doing for years and it has led to our current (and many previous) crises, you would have to somehow assert that my conclusion is wrong and maybe provide some rational explanation.

If you're busy or tired right now, I can wait. One can always learn the most from a perspective that they are unfamiliar with, so it's worth it.

The argument "but the US doesn't have a really free market" sounds like the old "but the USSR didn't really have communism" argument to me
:rotfl:

True, there can never be a generally desireable system of pure capitalism, and a system of pure communism simply cannot exsist, so the resemblance is there, I suppose. I imagine that both are like a system of forums where people have to actually read the entire post before they argue with it;

The beauty of a truly free market (which admittedly, must have limited, but strong, anti-fraud and anti-theft regulation)

or a system in which people post things that aren't contradictory;
The incentive of failure is the only regulation that needs to be enacted

I misspoke myself there, perhaps too focussed on dramatic effect.


Apart from parts of "new" europe and the UK, the US has the least regulated economy on the globe.
Aside of course from Somalia...


According to whom? I can easily produce a large list of sources contradicting this claim, but here is one of my favorites
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/topten.cfm

Bear in mind that the lower the number in the government size index, the more government there is. The number actually refers to freedom from government as a percentage.

In short, though, you are correct that capitalism cannot be totally free. It must have regulations to prevent fraud, theft, and exploitation, to some degree. However, these regulations should be as unobtrusive as possible, since they tend to hinder honest business more than they damage dishonest dealings.

One thing that I have come to expect from economic left-wingers over the years is a complete disregard for any kind of empirical evidence, so I doubt that the world's growing assortment of failing mixed economies, or the stark contrast of China's "Special Economic Zones" with the rest of the nation, or even the alarming correalations between the stregth of the U.S. economy/dollar value within the past few decades with an increase in socialistic policies, would dissuade them from believing that someone out there has the knowledge to understand the completely unfathomable nature of economics and can make some sort of policy to govern it efficiently and effectively.

Rarely in history are there such stark contrasts as those which economics can show us. Centralization inevitably always fails. Freedom (to a certain point, of course) inevitably generates prosperity.


While some brilliant mind may exsist who can effectively control any centralization of economy, I have yet to see them, so I ask those who would disagree; "What preferable system do you have?" "How would you control an economy more effectively than it can control itself with the minimal regulations of the nature I presented above?"
The rest of us eagerly await your response, becuase all the other people who claimed to have such solutions haven't done such a great job.

P.S. I have to apologize for getting so worked up over such issues. IMO, a healthy economy is vital to a healthy nation. Quite simply, I am not willing to trust the economic welfare of the country to an person or person(s) other than the producers and consumers. The alternative has historically been shown to fail, quite catastrophically on a number of occassions. Nonetheless, I'm the first to admit that I don't know everything (understatement of the century), so I would jump at the chance to hear an economic policy that I couldn't easily circumvent for my own gain.

Feel free to be harshly critical in your responses, it doesn't bother me a bit.:D

[Konovalov]

The important question is however, will the NIC's assessment and future predictions prove accurate in the next +20 years? Hell if I know. :-?

[TDK1044]

America's strength comes from it's ability to constantly change and grow. The demographic breakdown is irellevant. It's the quality of our people that matters, not the dominant color.

In the recent presidential election, just under 70 percent of the voters were white. We elected an African American president to serve in the White House, a building that was built by slaves a little more than a hundred years ago.

America offers more freedom and opportunity than any other country in the world, and it will continue to do so. Maybe that's why some other countries are so jealous of it.

The people of my country have yet to elect a Dictator, something that can't be said of some European Countries represented here.

It's also worth noting that because you have to be a natural born citizen of the United States in order to become President, there's no chance of an Austrian born painter attempting world dominace from our shores.

[August]

Don't shoot the messenger
;)

No offense intended to you AntEater but:

a. Skybird searches the web for negative articles about my country and has been doing so since I started reading this board half a decade ago. I trust him about as far as i can throw a tiger tank.

b. This is not the NIC article. It is the Guardians interpretation of the NIC article. Even his "original document" link doesn't come from the source but rather the Guardian.

c. It is merely an estimate of what might happen almost twenty years into the future. I leave it to you to calculate how accurate such projections tend to be.

[Skybird]

Yes, TDK, jealous we are, and so thankful that we need to pay for your way of life and your superior model. Paying for it on and on and on, it makes us happy.

Try to run your model we envy you for without cheating by using other people's money, use exclsuively your own - then you may have a claim to make about how great your model work. Until then, I would prefer to brag a bit lesser about how fantastic we are, if I were you. your nation is not an example for the rest of the globe anymore, as it has been until decades ago - it is the globe'S greatest problem today. And still you think you are the greatest?

Or in other words: give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets. In germany we have reduced spendings over the past years and expected to have the first balanced state budget without new debts next year - thanks to the crisis made in the US, we can forget that and will increase our new debts again now - years of fiscal policy of ours lost and ruined. We are so jeaulous for you, yes we are! Do all that, get rid of your debts and compensate us for the dmaages you have done to us, and then you have an argument indeed to claim your model has unused ressources and can be successful and revive itself like phoenix rises from the ashes, and that it can run by itself and without help from the outside. Right now it has proven to cause a mess, if being allowed running for just long enough, it is a patient on the intensive-care-station. And all we non-american nations and economies need to clean the mess that you have made by refusing to stop while there still was time, and we need to suffer massive losses - for your model failing. You are the greatest debtor in the world - that successful your model works.

And I do not even touch the issue of widening social gaps inside your country, and the accumulation of more and more wealth at a smaller and smaller top of the social hierarchy while more and more people become poorer and poorer.

AntEater is right, things won't be too great in the EU, too, for different reasons - what America has too little, the EU has too much: regulations. Both does damage, but there can be no doiuzbt that the current crisis that I more and more understand to be just unfolding in it'S starting sequence has been caused by and in America. and where foriegn bansk and economies suffer losses as well, it is becaseu they allowed to be infested with the virus that had taken over the american finance system. That is not a recommendation for that finance system - but the exact opposite.

[AntEater]

If you look at past estimates, you will see a mixed bag
AFAIK the NIC failed to predict the collapse of the USSR.
On the other hand, while it did not predict 911 per se, it warned for years about major terrorist attacks on US soil.
It seems to me that while NIC is good on hard power politics, military, migration and industry, the US intelligence community knows little about the intricacies of the world financial markets.
This is not surprising as most intelligence services recruit themselves from the military or other security institutions.
Apart from that, as I posted in the "black swan theory" thread, the NIC apparently is quite good at recognizing trends.
And IMHO they're pretty much stating the obvious, and not giving a worst case scenario of that either, but rather an optimistic middle ground assessment.
With regards to america being more adaptable and such, intelligence agencies cannot count on metaphysics.
This sounds a bit like the WW2 japanese trusting that their japanese martial spirit might overcome any technological advantage of their enemies.

I mean if the US can integrate these non-traditional US citizens, it won't be because of some kind of special spirit, but because the economy can provide them with the same standard of living as the others.
With that I don't mean a welfare state, but well-paid jobs.
I'm not a US citizen, but to me it seems the great integrating factor in the past has not been some kind of economic kumbayah of a common spirit, but rather the fact that everybody who tried earned enough not only to keep living but to actually improve.

[SteamWake]

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked :o

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

[Digital_Trucker]

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked :o

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

At least it's not Der Spiegel this time:D

[AntEater]

Ideology aside, I'm not so sure wether trust in the producers and consumers that much today.
If we had Henry Ford speaking to Congress, I'd agree, but we don't.
In many ways, today's CEOs are simply overpaid clerks.
They're basically interested in their salaries and their boni, if then corporate interest comes second, you have a good executive. If he thinks of the cooperation at all, you have an average one.
They're not corporal WW2 generals, but corporate 16th century condottiere (warlords).
On the other hand, leaving a multibillion dollar enterprise in the hands of one or serveral personal owners is not the solution either, a modern multinational corp. simply can't work this way.
With regards to the consumers, we can't trust them either.
First of all, a whole industry, the biggest industry in the US is PAID to cloud his judgement. Second, today's markets are so complicated that even without that much advertising, keeping abreast of the flood of information would be a full time job.

With regards to the auto industry, the logical thing would be "let 'em fail".
With state support, the state actually rewards the very same people who caused this mess and has zero guarantee that they won't screw up again.
A full scale nationalization would be an alternative, but I think not really feasible in the US.
Problem is, if you let the whole auto industry of america go down the drain, there's no one to step up in their place.
Without state support, not even foreign manufacturers would suddenly start to invest big scale in US production.
Auto industry in the US would just stop. From a libertarian standpoint, this is acceptable, the US big three screwed up and deserved it.
But from a national point of view, losing the most important part of your manufacturing industry is not acceptable.

[joegrundman]

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked :o

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

His source is the NIC report from the USA
It just is linked via the guardian

But I'm sure you knew that, having checked what it is before you posted, and didn't just take the first opportunity to prove yourself a nob-end. I am reassured that you do in fact genuinely find the NIC report an amusing source.

I'm guessing steamwake thinks the only fair and balanced resource is little green footballs.

[Skybird]

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked :o

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.
I have no agenda, I am simply angry, and with all right we non-Americans can have, since we pay the bills.

And what is wrong with my - as you put it - "sources"? I repeatedly have said, at least three time this year alone, that there is only one reason why I quote Der Spiegel often and almost never any other german news outlet: Der Spiegel is the only German paper with a dedicated and huge international internet edition that translates the german edition's content into English. Most other papers, and almost all of the major ones never had or have no more an English edition.

Learn German, and I give you material from two dozen different German "sources" regularly in this forum - just in case you suddenly discover your love and interest for german inner politics, and start to care for it!

[Skybird]

Are you saying SkyBird has an agenda? Im shocked :o

Im always amused at his 'sources' though.

His source is the NIC report from the USA
It just is linked via the guardian

Indeed. I could as well have used any other of the various German and British papers that I skimmed and where the news of this report is being covered on page 1. Most newspapers had a headline on it yesterday or today.

[SteamWake]

His source is the NIC report from the USA
It just is linked via the guardian

But I'm sure you knew that, having checked what it is before you posted, and didn't just take the first opportunity to prove yourself a nob-end. I am reassured that you do in fact genuinely find the NIC report an amusing source.

I'm guessing steamwake thinks the only fair and balanced resource is little green footballs.

LOL he called me a nob-end... :p

The first link 'his source' is to an article in the Guardian itself which picked and choose excerpts from the 120 page report. Not that the Guardian has any agenda :yep: If they could have got away without crediting the source of the material they would have.

Im sure you took the time to read all 120 pages of the actual report. My favorite part was page two.

Nob end.... LOL :rotfl: that so cute.

Here is another perspectave on the same article http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSN2041155720081120

By the way no I dont put a whole lot of faith in the NIC

[Morts]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?
kinda like you and some other people to with the democrats

[joegrundman]

glad you like it:D

[August]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he? kinda like you and some other people to with the democrats

The difference? The Dems are my countrymen. I don't make a habit of posting dirt on foreign countries.

[August]

Or in other words: give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets.

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.

[subchaser12]

I think this assesment is correct, but I think blaming race is just the blame game. Bush and Cheny Inc. are white as can be and they have been the most incompetent rulers of this country we have ever seen. So I am not automatically going to say if someome is white they are right, and black, well you know the rest. Obama could go sleep on his desk for the next four years and be less of a screw up than his white predecessor Cheney and Bush.

Whites not being the majority in a few decades is old news, but I see Obama's win is drudging it up to further inflame the small minority of white people in this country who see it as the end of times. White people stoped having 8 kids decades ago. They got selfish, so they won't dominate. In south Florida you can't even get a job as a white person if you don't speak Spanish.

If you want to be the majority start having 8+ kids again. As it stands white people have two kids that don't return their calls after going off to college to be liberals.

[Schroeder]

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.
I know we´re getting OT but:
Could you please tell me how we started WWI all alone?;)

[August]

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.
I know we´re getting OT but:
Could you please tell me how we started WWI all alone?;)

All alone? No. But you must admit had Germany stayed neutral millions of people on both sides wouldn't have died in that war, including my Great Grandfather August Karl who gave his life for Germany just 90 years ago last month.

[Morts]

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.
sure...use the WW2 card

[Schroeder]

All alone? No. But you must admit had Germany stayed neutral millions of people on both sides wouldn't have died in that war, including my Great Grandfather August Karl who gave his life for Germany just 90 years ago last month.
Same goes for UK, France, USA, Turkey, Italy....;)
(Sorry for your great Grandfather though...that war was really pointless beyond imagination.:nope:)

[August]

All alone? No. But you must admit had Germany stayed neutral millions of people on both sides wouldn't have died in that war, including my Great Grandfather August Karl who gave his life for Germany just 90 years ago last month.
Same goes for UK, France, USA, Turkey, Italy....;)

C'mon now, Germany was a major instigator and player in that war. We were practically dragged into it years after it started.

[August]

Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people. sure...use the WW2 card

Against Mr. "Holier than thou" Skybird? You betcha.... :up:

[Schroeder]

How about France and the UK?

I still don't see why Germany is always blamed to have started it all.:roll:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?

I wouldn't go so far as to call everything Sky says as lies and propaganda, as even in the worst cases, there is often a shred of truth to the sources he posts. As Americans, our priority should be rectifying the position our elected representatives have put us in and embracing a policy of trade and non-interventionism as soon as we feasibly can. These are the things that made our country great in an unprecedentedly short span of time, and we must reeturn to these ideals if we are to survive and maintain our position in the global economy.

As great a nation as she is, America is not without fault, and it is high time that we returned to a limited foreign policy and the pursuit of economic prosperity through a free-market model. Our efforts to spread "Democracy", after a fashion, and freedom throughout the world have gone largely unappreciated, and in fact we have bungled such attempts on many occassions. However noble the intents of our predecessors may have been, they have not ultimately resulted in success.

Pursuing such a policy, economic dominance will return to America in time, as other nations scramble to adjust or fix their economies through heavy-handed statist measures. Our objective now, should be to honorably withdraw from our foreign commitments, making sure to leave as little resentment as possible behind, while focussing on a free economic model. If only this nation, with the resources it has, could embrace the economic freedom of nations like Switzerland or Hong Kong, while preserving the personal liberties that set us apart. What a nation we could be!

Who, in the world, would not wish to flock to a nation that would guarantee such freedoms? Once again we could lift Liberty's lamp beside the Golden Door. Give us your oppressed masses, your gifted few, your disheartened people yearning to breathe free, and we shall show the world a nation of nations, where every person's destiny is their own.

No matter where one hails from, no matter what their history, all people yearn for freedom. America was that. America needs to become that again. Freedom to prosper. Freedom to fail. Freedom to try again. Freedom to believe or disbelieve as we choose. Freedom to lead. Freedom to serve. Freedom to be.

As a nation, we have lost sight of the ideals of Freedom. Equality of opportunity became equality of outcome. Obviously, shortfalls must be made up somewhere, and the result was a classic system of wealth redistribution that destroys free market incentives. Even worse, the power necessary to enforce such intentions was concentrated in the hands of an elite, with predictable results. Despite all our efforts, the poor remain poor, and the rich remain rich. All we have done, in the interests of promoting freedom, is to make the poor poorer, the rich richer, and the middle-class works harder.

In any system, including capitalism, there will always be a priveledged few. The difference between freedom and statism is that where the priveledged few must earn their keep by providing jobs and production in a free system, they need only produce lies and false promises in a statist system.

The U.S. is, indeed, perched upon a precipice today. Should we follow the cries for more state intervention by people who want instant gratification, we will surely topple over the edge.

So Sky often does have a point, even if it isn't always what he intends.


Sure thing Spanky, just as soon as Germany compensates the rest of the world for starting two horrible world wars and causing the death of 10's of millions of people.

Believe it or not, I really hate disagreeing with you, August, but that assesment isn't fair at all to the Germans. The First World War can not be pinned on any single nation, though Germany did have her share of the blame because of her alliance with Austria-Hungary, but it was Kaiser Wilhelm who cast about for peace on the eve of war, not King Geroge V of England, and certainly not Winston Churchill, who was actively interested in suppressing Germany if only to maintain British economic dominance. Then of course, we have the infamous Versailles treaty, in which Wilson's 17 points were casually discarded by the British and French, setting the stage for a war of reparation from a desperate Germany.

World War 2, it could be argued, aside from the obvious guilt of the Versailles Treaty, similarly cannot be blamed on Germany. While the popular theory is that Germany brutally occupied Alsaice-Lorraine and the Sudetenland, it is worth noting that these regions were actually in favor of return to the Reich. Even more interesting is the usual lack of any discription as to what happened to the non-sudeten parts of Czecheslovakia, which were, incidentally, occupied by Poland:hmm: . That poor nation led by a military dictatorship that refused to return Danzig to Germany because an extremely irate Winston Churchill gave them a war guarantee despite the fact that Britain only had a 2 division land army at the time. Poland was sacrificed for an excuse to go to war with Germany and the result was that not only did Poland not gain freedom, but 13 Eastern European nations were lost behind the Iron Curtain for 70 years.
Hitler, monster that he was, had no intention of going to war with Poland, which he considered a possible ally against the Soviets, and he says as much in Mein Kampf. Nor did he desire war with the West. His principal concern was the Soviet Union.
Far be it from me to defend Hitler and certainly not his holocaust, but the alternative we chose was a damn sight worse than a reunified Germany waging war against the Soviets with the support of Europe.

As a conservative, August, I'm sure you know better than to trust the hand that rocks the cradle for all your historical information. I'm sorry for being a bit of a smartass, and I love our country as much as you do, but if we really love America, it is our civic duty to question our leadership and, in doing so, keep the state in check. :up:

[August]

How about France and the UK?

I still don't see why Germany is always blamed to have started it all.:roll:

I never said they started "it all", that's just your spin on it. But you must admit with a peaceful Germany WW1 never gets much beyond a regional conflict and certainly not to the four year meat grinder it turned out to be...

[MothBalls]

I have no agenda, I am simply angry, and with all right we non-Americans can have, since we pay the bills.

Ever see the series from James Burke called Connections? It was a good show telling about how one small event in the past can drastically change the future.

1939 America was isolationist. It was drug into world events that created the military industrial complex and the first superpower. America didn't win the war by itself, but it did make significant contributions. Please tell us what your world would be like today if they didn't make those contributions? Give the US some credit. After all, they did invent the deep fried twinkie.

I think Bill Maher hit the nail on the head a couple years before this report came out:

New Rules: America Isn't #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcz_NHAFGS0)


Side note: Love what Maher says about France (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS0yISz6xQ). Funny as hell.

[August]

Believe it or not, I really hate disagreeing with you, August, but that assesment isn't fair at all to the Germans.

It is no less fair than his accusation that the US owes the world,... well heck, let me just quote him:

give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets.

You want fairness? Guess you ought to start with that. Personally i'm in favor of returning to isolationism. Mind our own business and let the world sort itself out on its own.

[Schroeder]

How about France and the UK?

I still don't see why Germany is always blamed to have started it all.:roll:
I never said they started "it all", that's just your spin on it. But you must admit with a peaceful Germany WW1 never gets much beyond a regional conflict and certainly not to the four year meat grinder it turned out to be...
Again, what about all the other nations that were so eager to fight? But we are derailing this thread. My point is just that Germany didn't start WWI. It was startet by other events and then almost the whole of Europe (including Germany) went to war.

I'm just as sick of being blamed for WWI (WWII is already enough:dead:) as you are for being blamed for every problem on the planet.;)

[August]

Again, what about all the other nations that were so eager to fight? But we are derailing this thread. My point is just that Germany didn't start WWI. It was startet by other events and then almost the whole of Europe (including Germany) went to war.

I'm just as sick of being blamed for WWI (WWII is already enough:dead:) as you are for being blamed for every problem on the planet.;)

I can certainly understand that...

[AVGWarhawk]

Again, what about all the other nations that were so eager to fight? But we are derailing this thread. My point is just that Germany didn't start WWI. It was startet by other events and then almost the whole of Europe (including Germany) went to war.

I'm just as sick of being blamed for WWI (WWII is already enough:dead:) as you are for being blamed for every problem on the planet.;)
I can certainly understand that...

What problems on the planet? :p

[TDK1044]

Personally i'm in favor of returning to isolationism. Mind our own business and let the world sort itself out on its own.

I agree with you. Over the next twenty years, I want to see us get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and use that and other money to invest heavily in multiple alternate energy technologies.

We have everything we need within our Country to be totally self sufficient in all things within twenty years, we just need a very different mind set in order to achieve it.

[Frame57]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?August, he is just venting misdirected guilt from being born in a country that gave us Hitler and the Munich Olympics...:nope:

[Konovalov]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?August, he is just venting misdirected guilt from being born in a country that gave us Hitler and the Munich Olympics...:nope:
I think that issue has been more than raised. Could we please just get back to discussing the contents of the report by the NIC as the report is provided in full at the following link given earlier: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-file...2025_FINAL.pdf

[Morts]

Skybird never quits slamming my country with lies and propaganda does he?August, he is just venting misdirected guilt from being born in a country that gave us Hitler and the Munich Olympics...:nope:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: what a cheap shot frame

[UnderseaLcpl]

Ideology aside, I'm not so sure wether trust in the producers and consumers that much today.
If we had Henry Ford speaking to Congress, I'd agree, but we don't.
In many ways, today's CEOs are simply overpaid clerks.

That's all well and good, a great number of liberals feel the same way, but what alternative is there? There will always be a market, and the worst things you can do to a market are to attempt to centralize control of it or drive it underground. The results are never pleasant for the rest of us.
So, while I will admit that you have a good point in saying that markets are not perfect and that marketing makes the issue of consumption a bit more difficult for the average person, I have yet to see any better ideas.

They're basically interested in their salaries and their boni, if then corporate interest comes second, you have a good executive. If he thinks of the cooperation at all, you have an average one.
They're not corporal WW2 generals, but corporate 16th century condottiere (warlords).

I wouldn't agree with the sweeping generalization above as many CEO's have a vested interest not only in their industries and companies but also in the welfare of their workers. Of course, many do not, and you also make a good point here. However, the worst examples of these types of CEO's tend to manifest themselves in large industries that consistently fail and yet cannot die because of Federal regulation. It is extraordinarily difficult to start a business in the U.S. because of the sums of money for licensures, permits, and legal representation involved and this only eliminates competition to companies that have become inefficient and no longer satisfy people's needs. I should know a bit about that, I work for one of them.

If you'll alow me to meander for a short while, the freight railroad system in the U.S. is a customer's worst nightmare. The railroads own the rail lines, and these lines are extremely expensive, and often impossible, to produce more of. Furthermore, only a handful of major railroads exsist, and they essentially have a monopoly over land-based heavy transport. Since our customers generally own large, expensive facilities, they can't exactly pack up and move elsewhere. The result is that we consistently overcharge them and deliver their goods late. After all, they can't go anywhere else. However, even then, capitalism forces them to choose the most efficient path, as transporting huge quantities of goods by truck is often uneconomical. In this particular case, deregulation is needed in the form of "freeedom of access legislation" where any railroad can use any track without a fee. The result would be that railroads would actually have to compete with each other for customers, and the consumers, as well as the most efficient railroads, would benefit more. This approach was tried with the energy industry, but the Feds forgot the all-important step of getting their hands off of the generating facilities, so results were mixed.

On the other hand, leaving a multibillion dollar enterprise in the hands of one or serveral personal owners is not the solution either, a modern multinational corp. simply can't work this way.

Surely, you must be joking. Modern multinational corporations operate this way all the time, and generate a great deal of wealth not only for themselves but also for subsidiary corporations and investors and employees all the time. The alternative is to put such an industry in the hands of the state, and there are a lot of countries, including India, Russia, and China, that will produce a lot of examples as to why this is a bad idea. Large corporations do have their problems, but profitability and longevity generally have a direct link except where the state is involved.

First of all, a whole industry, the biggest industry in the US is PAID to cloud his judgement. Second, today's markets are so complicated that even without that much advertising, keeping abreast of the flood of information would be a full time job. It could be argued that the legal industry, for which I have nothing but disdain, is actually the largest "industry" in the U.S., but that's neither here nor there. The average citizen, thanks to the technological marvels provided entirely by private industry, has access to virtually all of the information in the world in the space a few seconds, thanks to the internet. As the complexity of markets increases, so does the consumer's ability to cope. Finding the best price and value for an item is hardly a full-time job, it's just a few keystrokes away.
If someone can't be bothered to spend a few minutes evaluating their purchase decisions in the information age, I have no sympathy for them.


With regards to the auto industry, the logical thing would be "let 'em fail".
With state support, the state actually rewards the very same people who caused this mess and has zero guarantee that they won't screw up again.
A full scale nationalization would be an alternative, but I think not really feasible in the US.
Problem is, if you let the whole auto industry of america go down the drain, there's no one to step up in their place.
Without state support, not even foreign manufacturers would suddenly start to invest big scale in US production.
Auto industry in the US would just stop. From a libertarian standpoint, this is acceptable, the US big three screwed up and deserved it.

If i had never heard anything you ever said before, this statement alone would be enough to convince me that you are a liberal. The U.S. auto industry is nothing more than a dinosaur waiting to be confined to the dustbin of history, because the U.S. no longer has a manufacturing economy, but a service economy. The next step is a corporate economy, which our representatives are working hard to counteract, because auto manufacterers have lobbyists, too.

For a country like the U.S., where cheap industry labor is rarely available, but the economy is (generally) strong and the currency is also comparitively strong, the next logical step for any company is to transition to an international corporate nature where labor is outsourced and the administration simply places itself in the location where its' ventures are the most economically feasible. We shouldn't fear a transition to this type of economy. Should the U.S. embrace a lenient and business-friendly economic policy (no corporate taxes, simple licensure procedures, simple, but strong and effective legal codes to prevent fraud and theft) it matters little where the goods are actually produced, because the lion's share of profit from production comes here anyway.

Blue-collar factory jobs become service industry jobs, and the entire economy moves up a step, benefitting all of us. Some disagree with that asessment, but the GNP per capita (despite our increasing population) and the PPP per capita says otherwise.

The goal of the U.S. now, while it still holds some semblance of economic dominance, should be to embrace free-market policies for once and attract every type of business around the globe. This approach worked marvelously well for the Southeast Asian Tigers, and one can only imagine the effect such a policy would have in a nation like the U.S.
Naturally, our European friends would likely not be far behind, or at least, they need not be, given the typical strength of the collective European economy.

While I don't have a solution for the whole world, and indeed, noone does, the U.S. and other first-world nations still have the ability to remain powerful engines of economy.

Taking a pessimistic point of view, the above might be considered an economists' version of utopia, but the fact remains that economic growth must continue one way or another, as long as it is driven by an expanding population and the resultant need for resources.

Economic success is most effective in a free market, where companies compete for customers, resources and labor. It has long been a source of perplexion to me as to why liberals, who supposedly seek to improve the plight of common people, consistently champion shortsided measures that slow the economy and reduce competition for labor, which in turn reduces wages. Tariffs, corporate taxes, and the state's obsession with inhibiting competition by making it difficult for venture capitalists to start competing businesses, all harm the plight of the common laborer, as less economic activity means that his services are not in demand as much.
Furthermore, the nationalization of industries harms the economy significantly, as they typically are not as efficient as their private counterparts, for obvious reasons, and actually remove wealth (in the form of taxation) from the populace in order to operate.

At the last, I will ask you this; If decisions relating to economy are not to be trusted to the market, and its' millions upon millions of representatives who vote with their money, who should it be entrusted to? How will you ensure that the right people are appointed to govern such a complex system? What do you do when they fail?

As much as I would love to see someone come along and provide all the answers for a perfect economic system, such a person does not exsist, and any arguments to the contrary can be easily dismantled and even supported by historical precedent and common sense. So now I wait for some ingenious response as to how the world's economic problems can be solved by more intervention by the enlightened few who actually understand the unfathomable number of factors that affect the economy.

[FIREWALL]

I wouldn't worry about the USA's Intel position will be in 20 years.:nope:


I'd be worrying if I lived in a country that constantly bashs and attacks the USA, if it were still on the face of the Earth in 20 yrs.

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself. When the World has hit rock bottom as it seems to be heading.

There's always a Hitler, Stalin, ect, or someone even worse bideing their time and waiting in the wings. And God or whom
ever help us.

Their will be a Nuclear War, it's inevitable. :dead:

It will be Short, Decisive, and bring about a New World Order.

Whether anyone of us will be around to see it is another matter.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Believe it or not, I really hate disagreeing with you, August, but that assesment isn't fair at all to the Germans.

It is no less fair than his accusation that the US owes the world,... well heck, let me just quote him:

give us (the non-american rest of the globe) back our money, TDK, two thirds of your yearly GDP. And compensate us for the loss of profits and the loss oif hundreds of thousands of jobs that is to be expected as a conseqeunce of the recession your nation's failed finance policy has kicked us into, and compensate us for the increased burden this puts onto our social budgets.

You want fairness? Guess you ought to start with that. Personally i'm in favor of returning to isolationism. Mind our own business and let the world sort itself out on its own.

The accusations of one German and the predominant belief in the history of the world wars are hardly the same, but I'll give you that. Sky does say some inflammatory things on occasion, as we all do, from time to time. I just don't like personal attacks.

I, too am in favor of returning to an isolationist policy, as our efforts are obviously not appreciated to any great extent. While I don't believe that we will ever do so, thanks to the noble efforts of our generally worthless representatives, should some nation ever require our help again, I hope that we can remember the lessons we've learned:D

Cheers, friend

[TDK1044]

Their will be a Nuclear War, it's inevitable. :dead:

It will be Short, Decisive, and bring about a New World Order. Whether anyone of us will be around to see it is another matter.


Almost as worrying as the thought of Silent Hunter 5 with new code.

[FIREWALL]

Their will be a Nuclear War, it's inevitable. :dead:

It will be Short, Decisive, and bring about a New World Order. Whether anyone of us will be around to see it is another matter.


Almost as worrying as the thought of Silent Hunter 5 with new code.

Good one TDK :up: :p It helped lighten up this Doomsday thread. :yep: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Bewolf]

Skybird, as much as I share your anger and disgust at the current US, a lot of it's politics and it's unbelieveable ignorance to the rest of the world, the reason for this anger is anchored in my respect for this country. If it were Russia, Iran, China or any other country we'd be talking about here, whose agendas and conditions are much worse, I do not feel the same energy towars these as the US. I suppose these emotions stem from simply expecting something better of it, an afterglow of what it once stood for, liberty, freedom, human rights and optimism in face of even the harshest crisis, born out of it's legacy. Even if that is no more, it's kind of a love/hate relationship out of hopes that the light is still there somewhere. Think Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader if you want for an emotional comparison. Obama gave that back to a degree, but what comes has to be seen.

Churchill once said "count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else".

[TDK1044]

America can only have the kind of influence you describe, if countries like Germany allow that influence to take hold. If you want someone to blame for your lot in life, try looking in the mirror. No Country has disgraced itself more on this planet than Germany.

[Bewolf]

America can only have the kind of influence you describe, if countries like Germany allow that influence to take hold. If you want someone to blame for your lot in life, try looking in the mirror. No Country has disgraced itself more on this planet than Germany.
Yanno, at younger ages, I was ashamed upon hearing that, admitting immidiate defeat. Later, I tended to get angry and dispute. Later again I used to smile and be humerous about it. Now, seriously, I am too tired of that guildtrip to show any other reaction then boredom.

[FIREWALL]

I can understand why Bewolf hates the USA. :yep:




WE WHUPPED YOUR A$$ !!! GOOD !!! TWICE :p

[TDK1044]

Here's a quote that sums up your country and it's world contribution:

OH FATHERLAND FATHERLAND
SHOW US A SIGN
YOUR CHILDREN HAVE WAITED TO SEE
TO MORNING WILL COME WHEN THE WORLD IS MINE
TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME!

[August]

Sky does say some inflammatory things on occasion, as we all do, from time to time. I just don't like personal attacks.

An attack against my country is an attack against me as a citizen of that country. You'll forgive me if I don't ignore it all the time...

I, too am in favor of returning to an isolationist policy, as our efforts are obviously not appreciated to any great extent. While I don't believe that we will ever do so, thanks to the noble efforts of our generally worthless representatives, should some nation ever require our help again, I hope that we can remember the lessons we've learned:D

I remain more hopeful. It only takes the right combination of events and leaders to make it happen and once it does it'll be far more difficult to reverse course again.

[Q3ark]

America can only have the kind of influence you describe, if countries like Germany allow that influence to take hold. If you want someone to blame for your lot in life, try looking in the mirror. No Country has disgraced itself more on this planet than Germany.

I think you have stepped over the line with that one, this thread has gotten way out of hand.

I would like to remind you it was their war, our parents and grandparents, not ours.

[August]

America can only have the kind of influence you describe, if countries like Germany allow that influence to take hold. If you want someone to blame for your lot in life, try looking in the mirror. No Country has disgraced itself more on this planet than Germany.
I think you have stepped over the line with that one, this thread has gotten way out of hand.

I would like to remind you it was their war, our parents and grandparents, not ours.

While I agree that the comment was over the top, WW2 was not just our fathers war. We still feel the effects of it today and so will our children and their children.

[TDK1044]

The fact of the matter is that it's the German members here, those who have the least right to point fingers and accuse anyone of anything, who continually refer to the US in an offensive manner.

Their constant whining and complaining gets old.

That said, this will be my last post in the thread.

[Q3ark]

While I agree that the comment was over the top, WW2 was not just our fathers war. We still feel the effects of it today and so will our children and their children.

Yes I agree we do still feel the effects, and so do they. However, maintaining old hatred and bigotry does not help matters. These are not the same Germans, Italians, Russians or Englishmen etc... that started that war 69 years ago and for us to continue the hatred cheapens the sacrifice of the brave soldiers that fought to bring to an end the most bloody conflict the world has ever seen.

p.s.

I am not interested in country bashing, we (the English) have been allies with the U.S. for many decades now and we have not allways seen eye to eye on many subjects, however i think they have a better track record than we have due to our empire building days. Don't get me wrong I am proud to be an Englishman but, we have a dark and bloody past.

[Skybird]

Skybird, as much as I share your anger and disgust at the current US, a lot of it's politics and it's unbelieveable ignorance to the rest of the world, the reason for this anger is anchored in my respect for this country. If it were Russia, Iran, China or any other country we'd be talking about here, whose agendas and conditions are much worse, I do not feel the same energy towars these as the US. I suppose these emotions stem from simply expecting something better of it, an afterglow of what it once stood for, liberty, freedom, human rights and optimism in face of even the harshest crisis, born out of it's legacy. Even if that is no more, it's kind of a love/hate relationship out of hopes that the light is still there somewhere. Think Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader if you want for an emotional comparison. Obama gave that back to a degree, but what comes has to be seen.

Churchill once said "count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else".

I agree. And actually I had a very high respect and sympathy for the ideaos on which america was founded, for long time of my life. The Us could be so much better. But I also remember the very personal insultings and attacks I had to take when saying in the past that the US of today has distanced itself very, very far from the ideals of it's founders, and that the US of the second world war is very different from the US of today. Now seeing the immense damage the american model causes in the world, the costs needed to be payed and compensated by others - and at the same time America claiming it has no reason to change, and that it all works nice and well and that the failures of the past just happened because what caused the failures has not been allowed to unfold in enough unlimited fashion, my attitude towards the Us is changing. More and more the monumental arrogance and stubborness of this country dominates the impression I got of it. This change started sometime in the recent past, maybe one, maybe two years ago. Before that, for the 20-25 years before, I would have described my attitude as "critical, but well-meaning and hopeful" towards the US on an intellectual level, and as "friendly" on an emotional level. Today i must say, on an intellectual level it is "highly critical, disgusted and disappointed", and on an emotional level "neutral, tending to be very distanced". My old basic sympathies that even remained mostly unchanged during the first years of Bush and the Iraq war, and the better part of my life, is fading, and qickly so.

there is a golden myth at heart of this promise America is about, a myth about a noble dragon guarding a precious treasure. But it turns out the old dragon is dead since long, the guard now is just a pack of aggressive rats with rabies, and the treasure is some dirt and some rocks, alleged to be turned into gold in a better future once everybody has been bitten by the rats.

To say it in a poet's words:

Entzauberung.


( Ent|zau|be|rung f -, -en breaking of the / a spell (+gen on); (fig auch) deprivation of mystique; (von Vorstellungen) shattering, destruction
© Langenscheidt KG, Berlin und München und HarperCollins Publishers Ltd )

[1480]

Wow, I'm just getting ready for work, and I have a headache reading this. Good points to almost one & all. I will leave you with my belief: the Fed's get away with certain things over states and to industries as well. It's the carrot and stick method. I'll give you one example. The speed limit. Fed's thought 55 mph on highways were safest for vehicles to travel. Yet, they couldn't legislate this upon the states (10th amendment) so..... they would cut off transportation funding, if the state would not toe the line. Same thing with the subprime loans. If you do not take x amount of crap loans then we will not lend you money. They had a safety net, the tax payer in the guise of Freddie and Frannie. All they are doing now is cutting out the middle man. :o

[Morts]

The fact of the matter is that it's the German members here, those who have the least right to point fingers and accuse anyone of anything, who continually refer to the US in an offensive manner.

Their constant whining and complaining gets old.

That said, this will be my last post in the thread.
:rotfl: :rotfl: cause they started 2 world wars ? how about the US who has invaded 21 countries in the past 65 years?

[Lurchi]

Our fathers and grandfathers who either died or luckily survived the war must be ashamed to see how their grandsons still bash each other's countries by digging out stuff that happened before they were even born ... :doh:

I also cannot imagine anything more disgracing than degrading WW2 to some sort of sports event during which "asses are whipped".

[RickC Sniper]

Our fathers and grandfathers who either died or luckily survived the war must be ashamed to see how their grandsons still bash each other's countries by digging out stuff that happened before they were even born ... :doh:

I also cannot imagine anything more disgracing than degrading WW2 to some sort of sports event during which "asses are whipped".


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/RickC/agreepost.gif

[Bewolf]

Our fathers and grandfathers who either died or luckily survived the war must be ashamed to see how their grandsons still bash each other's countries by digging out stuff that happened before they were even born ... :doh:

I also cannot imagine anything more disgracing than degrading WW2 to some sort of sports event during which "asses are whipped".

mea culpa mea culpa. you are correct.

[HunterICX]

This thread has sunk to the level of stupidity what you usually find in youtube comments.

''Germany gave hitler''
''America is responsible for the crisis''
''Germany started both World Wars''
and so on

GOOD JOB

HunterICX

[Bewolf]

This thread has sunk to the level of stupidity what you usually find in youtube comments.

''Germany gave hitler''
''America is responsible for the crisis''
''Germany started both World Wars''
and so on

GOOD JOB

HunterICX

That is not correct. I am sure you do see the differences.

[HunterICX]

This thread has sunk to the level of stupidity what you usually find in youtube comments.

''Germany gave hitler''
''America is responsible for the crisis''
''Germany started both World Wars''
and so on

GOOD JOB

HunterICX
That is not correct. I am sure you do see the differences.

Spelling/grammar on here is better, but the content is not

HunterICX

[UnderseaLcpl]

[quote=UnderseaLcpl]Sky does say some inflammatory things on occasion, as we all do, from time to time. I just don't like personal attacks.

An attack against my country is an attack against me as a citizen of that country. You'll forgive me if I don't ignore it all the time...

Of course. Still, a little healthy debate and a respect for other's opinions doesn't hurt the American ideal any, imo:up:

I, too am in favor of returning to an isolationist policy, as our efforts are obviously not appreciated to any great extent. While I don't believe that we will ever do so, thanks to the noble efforts of our generally worthless representatives, should some nation ever require our help again, I hope that we can remember the lessons we've learned:D

I remain more hopeful. It only takes the right combination of events and leaders to make it happen and once it does it'll be far more difficult to reverse course again.

I pray that you are right, but I'll keep my guns, just in case.:D

[Skybird]

An attack against my country is an attack against me as a citizen of that country.

OH MY GOD.

:dead:

[Morts]

Here's a quote that sums up your country and it's world contribution:

OH FATHERLAND FATHERLAND
SHOW US A SIGN
YOUR CHILDREN HAVE WAITED TO SEE
TO MORNING WILL COME WHEN THE WORLD IS MINE
TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME!
wow...do you actually belive the crap you just posted ?

[August]

OH MY GOD.

:dead:

You don't have a god, remember Mr. Atheist?

[fatty]

August, why do you take these snipes at SkyBird if you know that he can't hear you?

[August]

August, why do you take these snipes at SkyBird if you know that he can't hear you?

Oh he reads my posts often enough, but if you want to make sure he will just quote me. He can't reply unless you do.

[Sea Demon]

This thread is funny in a morbid kind of way. Here we have a typical Euro posting as to the delight of the news that the USA "may not be the dominant power in 20 years". Without thinking this through, or applying any analytical ability to determine whether or not this is a good or bad thing, the OP proceeds to take the same used up opinions (the Chalmers Johnson doomsday type) to apply it as a "prophecy" of his own making. How stupid can this person be??? Honestly, I've lost total faith in the average European to determine what dynamics are good for the world. They have cheered on Obama, probably because Obama will do things which reduce America's economic and military power without even thinkking what impacts may come to Europe as a result and our alliances. Europe is drowning in an exploding Muslim population, and has Russia becoming ever more aggressive to their East. The Euro's have an energy imbalance and without US support.....no leverage at all. Yet, the Euro's cannot even see that they may come to hate what an Obama administration could mean to their own security. While Russia moves missiles Westward, Obama is talking about American disarmament. The Iranians are continuing the Shahab 3 program and their nuclear (civilian???) program and Obama wants to "talk without pre-conditions". China continues it's ballistic missile growth in the Far East, Obama is on the path to dismantle the sea based BMD programs. And the list goes on...... Without thinking consequences, the Euros have been cheering on potential dangers in their own midst. I take this report with a total grain of salt though because like TDK1044 says in an earlier post, America's strength lies in it's ability to change dynamically. A very insightful statement.

What I'm very interested in is knowing who the OP would feel would be a greater alternative to America as "dominant power". China and their gross human rights abuses? Russia with their totalitarian and chaotic mindset? Who?

[Q3ark]

muppets

[Sea Demon]

muppets

Like I said, I've lost total faith in the ability of the average European to determine what dynamics are good for the world. Your lame answer only solidifies my opinion of this further.

[Q3ark]

muppets

Like I said, I've lost total faith in the ability of the average European to determine what dynamics are good for the world. Your lame answer only solidifies my opinion of this further. ha ha ha good one yeh. Read my post number 51 in this thread and you'll realise what i was talking about u arrogant twat:nope:

Besides what the hell has this to do with Obama????

[August]

Eh, just when I felt anxious about the French bashing fashion getting old and slowly MIA, comes back the German bashing, way cool ! You Sauerkraut eating loser nazis ! :D

We all love the French. Fakt.

[Thomen]

Here's a quote that sums up your country and it's world contribution:

OH FATHERLAND FATHERLAND
SHOW US A SIGN
YOUR CHILDREN HAVE WAITED TO SEE
TO MORNING WILL COME WHEN THE WORLD IS MINE
TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME! wow...do you actually belive the crap you just posted ?

Na..

"Tomorrow Belongs to Me" was written by John Kander (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0437218/) and Fred Ebb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0247939/) in the style of a traditional German song, sung by the Nazi youth in the movie, to stir up patriotism for the "fatherland". It has often been mistaken for a genuine "Nazi anthem" and has led to the songwriters being accused of anti-Semitism. This would be most surprising, as they are, in fact, Jewish (This fact has not stopped openly racist and anti-Semitic rock groups, like Skrewdriver, from recording the song and performing it at White Power rallies). It is also the only song sung outside of the cabaret setting to survive the transition from stage to film.

[Sea Demon]

muppets
Like I said, I've lost total faith in the ability of the average European to determine what dynamics are good for the world. Your lame answer only solidifies my opinion of this further. ha ha ha good one yeh. Read my post number 51 in this thread and you'll realise what i was talking about u arrogant twat:nope:
OK. I thought you were just being a hostile smart-a@@. Sorry about that. :oops: Anyway, I still feel sorry for the people of Europe who still do have some common sense over there, and can think beyond the first dimension of their wishes. The fact that Europe so heavily favored Mr. Obama, in the face of so many potential threats, shows me that many people over there simply don't have the ability to propagate consequences, and may not be able to understand how it could be a big negative to their future security. The OP clearly has his head buried in the sand over the issue of the USA losing influence and power. And it inspires a vote of no confidence from me. Whether or not the USA loses the dominant position in 20 years remains to be seen. And whether it's good or not, for both us and you is simply not being thought out. People like the OP in euroland are simply driven by a narrow irrational contempt.

And the USA losing the dominant position or not has everything to do with who's leading it, and who we elect in the Congress..

[TDK1044]

Here's a quote that sums up your country and it's world contribution:

OH FATHERLAND FATHERLAND
SHOW US A SIGN
YOUR CHILDREN HAVE WAITED TO SEE
TO MORNING WILL COME WHEN THE WORLD IS MINE
TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME!
wow...do you actually belive the crap you just posted ?



Ever seen the movie 'Cabaret'? You'll find that song in it.

The arrogance of a couple of the German posters here is only matched by their ignorance of a Country that they really know nothing about.

America has changed and continues to change at a greater rate than any other Country in the world. The election Of Barack Obama is just one sign of the changes that are to come.

Germany's political rigidity is their real problem, not US foreign policy. If the German people had the courage to make real political changes within their own country, then maybe there would be less ignorance towards other countries....primarily the USA. But if the members here are an example of the average German voter, then they are doomed to continue to take the easy road and blame others for their lot in life.

[SUBMAN1]

Now the reality part instead of Skybirds twisted version. If you truly read the actual reports, you would have seen that it isn't at all the decline of the USA. It is actually the rise of China. So what you will have is another SuperPower cold war. I I remember correctly from the report, their is a third country that is also named, but China sticks in my head. Anyway, the report says the US will remain as powerful as it is, just that it will have rivals.

But as always, the media likes to twist things.

Now the bad part - China is mentioned that they will conflict in war with America over dwindling resources. So guess? Look forward to a future full of conflict.

Europe - good luck. You guys get to play a back seat to all this, and your standard of living will be pretty much non-existant.

But for the religious of you, you would already know this because the bible mentions the troublesome asian armies in the end of time, so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Oh, I forgot to mention the last part of the report - mass starvation. Welcome to the 21st Century! :up:

-S

[Q3ark]

muppets
Like I said, I've lost total faith in the ability of the average European to determine what dynamics are good for the world. Your lame answer only solidifies my opinion of this further. ha ha ha good one yeh. Read my post number 51 in this thread and you'll realise what i was talking about u arrogant twat:nope:
OK. I thought you were just being a hostile smart-a@@. Sorry about that. :oops: Anyway, I still feel sorry for the people of Europe who still do have some common sense over there, and can think beyond the first dimension of their wishes. The fact that Europe so heavily favored Mr. Obama, in the face of so many potential threats, shows me that many people over there simply don't have the ability to propagate consequences, and may not be able to understand how it could be a big negative to their future security. The OP clearly has his head buried in the sand over the issue of the USA losing influence and power. And it inspires a vote of no confidence from me. Whether or not the USA loses the dominant position in 20 years remains to be seen. And whether it's good or not, for both us and you is simply not being thought out. People like the OP in euroland are simply driven by a narrow irrational contempt.

And the USA losing the dominant position or not has everything to do with who's leading it, and who we elect in the Congress..

And i apologise for calling u an arrogant tw@, two wrongs don't make a right which is what i was trying to argue against. Guess the beer has gotten the better of me, it is Friday night after all. Good night people, don't let the world get you down it could be worse.

[Wolfehunter]

I also believe in the end we will destroy ourselves. Possible fallout is coming closer. When? I don't know. My only regret is bringing my daughter into this pathetic world. I try so hard to give her the best. Even knowing that there is so much crap all over the place. So much hatred so much ignorance so much immaturity. :nope:

We're suppose to be a civilized right? I don't think so. We are far from that.

We're suppose to be normal right? Who can define what is normal anymore? We allow our leaders or elites to kill us off slowly loosing jobs, houses, food and values.

We're doomed because we don't learn. We've been repeating this over and over for a long time. Different reasons different names but in the end the same outcome.

How many of us are going to die till we realizes our errors and make a change to secure a people as a whole? Not by colour or language or country.

I suggest you guys do this...

Take a moment sit back and relax. Really look at what is going on outside your window. Really look around. You don't have to see far to see the $H!T flying around you. Who's responsible for our predicament? Who's benefiting from our suffering?
Who is laughing to the banks?

Maybe you all should direct your anger and frustrations at those who are responsible for destroying us one by one.

As long as they divide and concur us we will loose and obey.

So how long do you think before we loose our sanity and someone presses the red button...? :/\\x:

[nikimcbee]

Don't shoot the messenger
;)

No offense intended to you AntEater but:

a. Skybird searches the web for negative articles about my country and has been doing so since I started reading this board half a decade ago. I trust him about as far as i can throw a tiger tank.

b. This is not the NIC article. It is the Guardians interpretation of the NIC article. Even his "original document" link doesn't come from the source but rather the Guardian.

c. It is merely an estimate of what might happen almost twenty years into the future. I leave it to you to calculate how accurate such projections tend to be.


yea! why are you suddenly trusting the CIA's data!?! They never make mistakes.

[nikimcbee]

Their will be a Nuclear War, it's inevitable. :dead:

It will be Short, Decisive, and bring about a New World Order. Whether anyone of us will be around to see it is another matter.


Almost as worrying as the thought of Silent Hunter 5 with new code.

Good one TDK :up: :p It helped lighten up this Doomsday thread. :yep: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Ha! Speaking of doomsday, I just watched a show about the Cuban missle Crisis. The scenario all sounds too familiar again.

[August]

yea! why are you suddenly trusting the CIA's data!?! They never make mistakes.

I'm afraid they're trusting the CIAs data because it says what they want it to say. Hmmm, :hmm: where have I heard that argument before?

[nikimcbee]

The whole thing is frustrating. They (certain people in the left) don't want us to have a major role in the World. They cut the military waaaaaaay down, then the faux rage when the troops don't have the equipment to get the job done. They sell our technology secrets. They cut the CIA to nothing, then are shocked when we get bad or no intellience back.

It all seems self fulfilling.

[Skybird]

I also believe in the end we will destroy ourselves. Possible fallout is coming closer. When? I don't know. My only regret is bringing my daughter into this pathetic world. I try so hard to give her the best. Even knowing that there is so much crap all over the place. So much hatred so much ignorance so much immaturity. :nope:

We're suppose to be a civilized right? I don't think so. We are far from that.

We're suppose to be normal right? Who can define what is normal anymore? We allow our leaders or elites to kill us off slowly loosing jobs, houses, food and values.

We're doomed because we don't learn. We've been repeating this over and over for a long time. Different reasons different names but in the end the same outcome.

How many of us are going to die till we realizes our errors and make a change to secure a people as a whole? Not by colour or language or country.

I suggest you guys do this...

Take a moment sit back and relax. Really look at what is going on outside your window. Really look around. You don't have to see far to see the $H!T flying around you. Who's responsible for our predicament? Who's benefiting from our suffering?
Who is laughing to the banks?

Maybe you all should direct your anger and frustrations at those who are responsible for destroying us one by one.

As long as they divide and concur us we will loose and obey.

So how long do you think before we loose our sanity and someone presses the red button...? :/\\x:
:up:

[Bewolf]

It's time for the world to meet its new master:
http://www.lejdd.fr/cmc/international/200846/sarkozy-en-maitre-du-monde_165415.html
:rotfl:

Well, he certainly fullfills one urgend french requirement for becoming a ruler. He "is" rather small :|\\

[SUBMAN1]

It's time for the world to meet its new master:
http://www.lejdd.fr/cmc/international/200846/sarkozy-en-maitre-du-monde_165415.html
:rotfl:
Well, he certainly fullfills one urgend french requirement for becoming a ruler. He "is" rather small :|\\You guys didn't read the report I see. The US will maintain its position, but it will have new rivals, and those rivals do not come from Europe. Europe's standard of living is expected to drop off like a rock.

Throw in some major conflicts between 3 Superpowers (USA/China/India), add in some mass starvation as the three vi for resources, and that is what the report is made of. Europe will become a distant memory of what it once was. The future looks ugly, but much worse for you guys. This is probably the result of you guys giving up your military if I had to guess.

-S

[August]

how do you frickin' say "humour" and "ironie" in your language ? :D

Pretty much the same way but with less letters...

[Bewolf]

how do you frickin' say "humour" and "ironie" in your language ? :D
Pretty much the same way but with less letters...

Mikhay, seriously, how does one respond to this? :huh:

[MothBalls]

how do you frickin' say "humour" and "ironie" in your language ? :D
Pretty much the same way but with less letters...

Mikhay, seriously, how does one respond to this? :huh:


Pretty much the same way but with less letters...

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,druck-592268,00.html


SPIEGEL: What are your expectations for the next Secretary of the Treasury?
Soros: I think we need a large stimulus package which will provide funds for state and local government to maintain their budgets -- because they are not allowed by the constitution to run a deficit. For such a program to be successful, the federal government would need to provide hundreds of billions of dollars. In addition, another infrastructure program is necessary. In total, the cost would be in the 300 to 600 billion dollar range.

SPIEGEL: In addition to the $700 billion bailout for the financial industry?
Soros: Definitely. I think this is a great opportunity to finally deal with global warming and energy dependence. The US needs a cap and trade system with auctioning of licenses for emissions rights. I would use the revenues from these auctions to launch a new, environmentally friendly energy policy. That would be yet another federal program that could help us to overcome the current stagnation.

SPIEGEL: Your proposal would be dismissed at Wall Street as "big government." Republicans might call it European-style "socialism."
Soros: That is exactly what we need now. I am against market fundamentalism. I think this propaganda that government involvement is always bad has been very successful -- but also very harmful to our society.

SPIEGEL: Would you advise the new president to say that publicly?
Soros: He has already spoken about changing the political discourse . I think that it is better to have a government that wants to provide good government than a government that doesn't believe in government.

SPIEGEL: However, even a strong government can't perform miracles. It needs money from the taxpayers. There is a lot of talk in the US about the new role of the state and the government -- but no one seems to be willing to pay for it. Obama has announced to cut taxes for 95 percent of working Americans. Isn't that a contradiction?
Soros: At times of recession, running a budget deficit is highly desirable. Once the economy begins to recover, you have to balance the budget. In 2010, the Bush tax cuts will expire and we should not extend them. But we will also need additional revenues. Should the government not receive them, we will all get punished with higher interest rates.

SPIEGEL: Everybody says we have to regulate the financial markets more. That sounds good, but is it realistic? Can one really tame the markets?
Soros: Between regulators and market participants, there is a cat and mouse game going on which has been going on indefinitely…

SPIEGEL: ….where often the mice, the market participants, have the upper hand.
Soros: Because they got the extra boost from market fundamentalists. But the outcome was disastrous, as we see now. I think it is better to have a cat and mouse game where the cat has the upper hand than a cat and mouse game where the mice are ruling. Because the latter means that the market participants are given free range. That was actually the big misconception of our national hero Ronald Reagan who always talked about the magic of the market.

SPIEGEL: So, you support stricter regulation and more efficient control of the markets?
Soros: Indeed. However, you have to recognize that regulations will never be completely successful and they will always be full of holes. You must constantly be ready to fill new holes. Actually regulation should be kept to a minimum, but there has to be some cooperation between market participants and authorities -- as was the case in the early post war years. The Bank of England was a very successful regulator by cooperating with market participants. This cooperative spirit was broken by the market fundamentalists.

SPIEGEL: Not in Germany. We have many semi-private banks that largely dominate the market. Politicians serve on their supervisory boards. But they are in particularly bad shape.
Soros: These public-private partnerships are very, very dangerous. The most rotten part of the financial system in the US consisted of the government sponsored entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They really kicked off this crisis. The state should set the rules and enforce them -- but not become involved as a market player.

[Hylander_1314]

The international banking cartel is the biggest culprit for the world's financial problems. How long can a world who's banking system is based on debt, continue to rise unabated? When a nation's money, or fiat currency is based on nothing of value, and naturally regulated by the ammount of value available, will it last? The reason for setting up these so called banking systems was the main argument of stablizing a country's monetary system. This started a little over 400 years ago with the Bank of England, and this form of banking has done nothing to stablize the monetary system of any nation it has been established in. If anything, the opposite has been done. Nations have been broken, and the people of individual nations have been unfairly taxed to pay for these nests of vipers all in the name of profit for a few, and misery for the masses.

Even Thomas Jefferson said, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

And the same stockholders who own the banks of Europe, are also stockholders in the Federal Reserve.

"From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)

"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen.
There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the
International bankers -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)

"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions.
They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people
of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" -- Congressional
Record 12595-12603 -- Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

[XabbaRus]

SInce the money and stock markets are basically the biggest con trick on the go, all this money doesn't exist except on someone's spreadsheet and in the mind, why don't we just baseline stuff...

Value is ephemereal....wipe it all out and start again.

[Hylander_1314]

But the privately owned central banks would need to be dismantled so the a nation and a people are not under the yoke and will of a few greedy hands, that have alliegenge to anything but profit at the expense of the nation and the people.

[Skybird]

British commander in Afghanistan renews new British sense of realism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7747145.stm


When the commander of British forces in Afghanistan tells you that "good enough" is the best that can be achieved here, you have to sit up and listen.
(...)
The Afghanistan British troops leave behind - and no-one is willing to commit to any timeline other than to repeat the mantra that it will take "many years" - is going to be an imperfect state.
Parts of it may well remain beyond the reach of central government in Kabul, and some of those responsible for the mayhem of the last 30 years could well retain much of their power and influence, perhaps even their militia.
It is a far cry from the beacon of democracy some had hoped for. "I don't think it will be recognisable in Western Europe, but Afghanistan will be something which will provide good enough security for the people. I think good enough should be what we look for," the brigadier said.

"It's not second best, it's realistic."

"There is a new realism in the air. In fact, all that has happened is that the rhetoric is finally catching up with what is actually happening on the ground.
My guess is that ordinary Afghans have known for some time that the liberation of 2001 offered more promise than delivery.
(...)

[Rockstar]

DRUDGE 2009...

RUSSIAN ANALYST PREDICTS DECLINE AND BREAKUP OF USA
Tue Nov 25 2008 09:04:22 ET

A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.

Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily IZVESTIA published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse."

The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events.

When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator."

When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."

Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."

He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."

He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.

He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all." Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.

Developing...

[Skybird]

Steady decline: yes, but complete breakup: currently not in sight, and claiming Alaska for Russia: not as long as Palin prowls in the Alaskan wilderness! :lol: I mean the Russians would be crazy if they want her...

[VipertheSniper]

Talk about propaganda BS...

[August]

Guaranteed to be a Speigel article by the end of the week.... Pravda means truth.

[AVGWarhawk]

Steady decline: yes, but complete breakup: currently not in sight, and claiming Alaska for Russia: not as long as Palin prowls in the Alaskan wilderness! :lol: I mean the Russians would be crazy if they want her...

Depends what they want her for;)

[sonar732]

I laughed during the segment of which areas would break up and how. Texas...talking about independance? Ok Neal...why didn't you let us know about this short of Sam Houston?

:rotfl::rotfl::arrgh!::arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

That sounds like fun, can we get back a piece of Louisiana ? Pretty please ?

Yep, you can have it all. Plan on setting up for the next hurricane. ;)

[Rockstar]

That sounds like fun, can we get back a piece of Louisiana ? Pretty please ?

Not much than a swamp turned into a garbage dump. New Orleans (French Quarter) reeks of urine, vomit and stale beer. Cleaned out periodically by hurricanes. It's all yours, just tell Govna Bobby J. I sent ya.

[DAB]

That sounds like fun, can we get back a piece of Louisiana ? Pretty please ?

Sure... just remember who your friendly island to the north is when the British Government claims 13 states on the US Eastern Seaboard!

...now where did the Proclamation Line run through again?

[Raptor1]

Does this whole business with the US breaking up remind anyone of Crimson Skies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Skies)?

[August]

That sounds like fun, can we get back a piece of Louisiana ? Pretty please ?

Indian giver.

[AntEater]

Hmm, sounds like a Scifi novel.
Lets see:
- 13 old states, either the rest of the US of A or a british protectorate/colony ;)
- Texas is independent, of course
- the rest of the southern states go either back to Mexico or will become some new latin republic
- Arnie becomes president of the People's republic of California
- the South rises again, but this time as an african american nation
- The lakes area gets absorbed into Canada
- The Sioux and other Indians renounce all treaties, go on war path and take their land back

Germany could annex Pennsylvania, though...

[August]

That sounds like fun, can we get back a piece of Louisiana ? Pretty please ?
Indian giver.
Come on, I didn't even ask for the Statue of Liberty, although it would look pretty cool on a trafic circle in Paris :D

Don't you have one there already albeit a smaller version of it?

[Onkel Neal]

Cool, I saw that statue when I was in Paris. :yep:

[August]

I have to admit i only know of it's existence because I saw the sequel to National Treasure. :oops:

[Skybird]

Whatever it is that you had, Neal, send me three bottles of it!

[Digital_Trucker]

Well, from driving all over the place with nothing to do but look at what's along side the road, I can tell you there's one in Birmingham, Alabama, too:rotfl:

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/al/ALBIRliberty_katherinerowland.jpg

http://www.bhamonline.com/liberty/index.htm

[Enigma]

There are hundreds..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicas_of_the_Statue_of_Liberty)

[August]

There are hundreds..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicas_of_the_Statue_of_Liberty)

The one in France though was made by the originals creator.

[MothBalls]

Whatever it is that you had, Neal, send me three bottles of it!

It's not in a bottle, it comes in a tube (http://www.preparationh.com/). Careful though, use to much and it might kill you.

[Skybird]

MothBall,
squeeze your pimple.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5821/010230ohrenzuwo8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)