The most arrogant thing I have ever seen...

[SUBMAN1]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S

[FIREWALL]

It's human nature to blame others, than to take responsibilty for ones own actions.

[SteamWake]

Im not so sure its 'human nature' rather more a product of our contemporary society.

When they stop keeping score for jr league baseball games.

When they give out ribbons for last place.

When they say "its okay to lose".

yes its okay to lose but learn from it, buck up and do better next time.

ps; subman you hacked my router.... LOL one of tens of thousands :D

[Sea Demon]

I think you're both right. It is human nature to blame others, but contemporary society is set up to make it much easier to do so with a straight face.

[FIREWALL]

Im not so sure its 'human nature' rather more a product of our contemporary society.

When they stop keeping score for jr league baseball games.

When they give out ribbons for last place.

When they say "its okay to lose".

yes its okay to lose but learn from it, buck up and do better next time.

ps; subman you hacked my router.... LOL one of tens of thousands :D

Isn't that called defeatism ? Makeing failure without learning from it an ok thing ?

[Sea Demon]

Im not so sure its 'human nature' rather more a product of our contemporary society.

When they stop keeping score for jr league baseball games.

When they give out ribbons for last place.

When they say "its okay to lose".

yes its okay to lose but learn from it, buck up and do better next time.

ps; subman you hacked my router.... LOL one of tens of thousands :D
Isn't that called defeatism ? Makeing failure without learning from it an ok thing ?

Or making failure an acceptable option. The perfect recipe for creating a system of entitlement junkies.

[FIREWALL]

:up: :up: :up:

[Skybird]

Isn't that called defeatism ? Makeing failure without learning from it an ok thing ?
Not necessarily. It could be, but must not be defeatism, because it is possible in a given scenario that you fail not by your own fault. That is possible because we are not total masters of our fate and potency of action. We may fail for reasons beyond our control and beyond our reach, or may be affected by factors that ruin our preparation and were completely unforseeable, because it is the nature of life to create the unexpected. Our bones are not made of adamantium, our soul is not made of cryptonite, our skin is not made of mithril, and our mind is not made of the calculation power of the Colossus computer. But for a society that lives by the motto of "the winner takes it all, the loser has to eternally fall and it's his own fault, always" (an attitude that reaches even as far as into the political voting system), this is hard to accept.

[Boris]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S

What is even more arrogant is to imply that the USA is so awesome so as to be beyond criticism. The US does its fair share of lecturing too.
And what's this can't stand to face their own problems stuff... honestly, where the hell do you get your view of Europe from?

[Rilder]

I for one welcome our new European Overlords.

[SteamWake]

I for one welcome our new European Overlords.

Now... where have I heard this before?

[caspofungin]

pot calling kettle black.

[Morts]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S

What is even more arrogant is to imply that the USA is so awesome so as to be beyond criticism. The US does its fair share of lecturing too.
And what's this can't stand to face their own problems stuff... honestly, where the hell do you get your view of Europe from?

:up: :up:

[August]

I for one welcome our new European Overlords.
Now... where have I heard this before?

Simpsons. Homer goes into space episode...

[Biggles]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S

What is even more arrogant is to imply that the USA is so awesome so as to be beyond criticism. The US does its fair share of lecturing too.
And what's this can't stand to face their own problems stuff... honestly, where the hell do you get your view of Europe from?

:up: :up:

I'll second that! :up: :up:

[Bewolf]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S
What is even more arrogant is to imply that the USA is so awesome so as to be beyond criticism. The US does its fair share of lecturing too.
And what's this can't stand to face their own problems stuff... honestly, where the hell do you get your view of Europe from?
:up: :up:
I'll second that! :up: :up:
Nothing to add. What goes around, comes around.

[SUBMAN1]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S
What is even more arrogant is to imply that the USA is so awesome so as to be beyond criticism. The US does its fair share of lecturing too.
And what's this can't stand to face their own problems stuff... honestly, where the hell do you get your view of Europe from?
:up: :up:
I'll second that! :up: :up:
Nothing to add. What goes around, comes around.
Nothing to add. What goes around, comes around.[/quote]Last i checked, no one runs around touting the USA is the best, though it might happen on rare occasion. Europe however constantly Delves into its arrogant attitude. It is a normal thing for them.

-S

[Frame57]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans. Can't stand to face their own problems so they bash us instead. Wonderful. And funny. :rotfl:

-S
What is even more arrogant is to imply that the USA is so awesome so as to be beyond criticism. The US does its fair share of lecturing too.
And what's this can't stand to face their own problems stuff... honestly, where the hell do you get your view of Europe from?
:up: :up:
I'll second that! :up: :up:
Nothing to add. What goes around, comes around.
Nothing to add. What goes around, comes around.Last i checked, no one runs around touting the USA is the best, though it might happen on rare occasion. Europe however constantly Delves into its arrogant attitude. It is a normal thing for them.

-S[/quote]Just a few here SUBMAN. I have been to A few European Countries. While in Germany I had a great time and was treated wonderfully. That was during Regan's presidency though... I never bought a beer in England either...Great folks! France was another story altogether. I have never met such snobs in my life. I thought this attitude was just an alleged stereotype, but no, they live up to it. My Dad told me a story of our uncle Pete. Uncle Pete was always in trouble and always needed the families help. My Dad often obliged and helped him out. You would think Pete would be thankful, but no, he had an attitude and was never grateful to those who helped him out and often spoke of my Dad very negatively. I have to think that some Europeans are like that. Even though WWI and II were some time ago, this type of attitude persists in some of them. They would relish in the demise of America rather than realizing a historical truth, that a strong America is good for them as well...

[gandalf71]

...France was another story altogether. I have never met such snobs in my life. I thought this attitude was just an alleged stereotype, but no, they live up to it. ...

What is Europe?

Europe is France making policy and the other countries pay the bill for it. :rotfl:

Not too serious, but true to some point. There are French people, I know, who are pretty cool too.

Cheers,
Michael

[Biggles]

And that is Europe lecturing Americans.


This imply that the ENTIRE European continent is lecturing or "bashing" you americans. I'm gonna do your race for once Subman, and demand 100% proof to this "fact". If you cannot give me that, then I'll ignore this statement and regard it as a lie. (which I do anyway, well, I don't ignore it, but I certainly regard it as a lie and as a very rude thing to say).

[Morts]

I'll ignore this statement and regard it as a lie.
kinda like subman1 always does whenever he is presented with facts that doesnt fit his mindset

[Biggles]

I'll ignore this statement and regard it as a lie.
kinda like subman1 always does whenever he is presented with facts that doesnt fit his mindset

As I said, I'll go his race;)

[jumpy]

As an Englishman, I don't really consider myself to be a part of 'europe' ... *shuffles feet* that's politician talk.

I've never sanctioned anything they do in my own country, let alone anything in some nerdy euro cabinet minister club where disgraced British mp's go to rejuvenate their careers somewhere where no-one has heard of them and their nasty little deals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mandelson)
And there's more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Kinnock)

Great times we live in, I say. Great times.

:p

[bookworm_020]

Don't worry! I blame everyone for the problems. I use to blame myself, but I said sorry and forgave me!:D

I think every droped the ball on this one. Now everyone has to work together to help fix it!

[kiwi_2005]

Happy is the person who finds fault with himself instead of finding fault with others...:)

:roll:

[Skybird]

Happy is the person who finds fault with himself instead of finding fault with others...:)

:roll:
How egocentric! :nope:

[nikimcbee]

Do you mean: "do as I do, not as I say?"

[nikimcbee]

Don't worry! I blame everyone for the problems. I use to blame myself, but I said sorry and forgave me!:D

I think every droped the ball on this one. Now everyone has to work together to help fix it!

I blame Steed, problem solved.:cool:

[nikimcbee]

To answer your question, I'd the the mosr arrogant thing I've was the oregon ducks declaring themselves national champs and heismann winner...in october. (they went on to loose the rest of their games.:rotfl:

[bookworm_020]

Don't worry! I blame everyone for the problems. I use to blame myself, but I said sorry and forgave me!:D

I think every droped the ball on this one. Now everyone has to work together to help fix it!
I blame Steed, problem solved.:cool:

England blames him already, thats enough people to deal with!

[XabbaRus]

Has steed actually been back since he went off in a huff. What was all that about anyway? I've forgotten.

[bookworm_020]

Has steed actually been back since he went off in a huff. What was all that about anyway? I've forgotten.

Haven't seen him in awhile, I thought it was quiet around here!;) I think it was about belly button lint and he was going to do some in depth testing:hmm:

[Stealth Hunter]

Actually, we have quite a few things we could learn from the Europeans. The main countries over there have existed longer than the United States has.

As my grandfather used to say, "Age brings wisdom and enlightenment."

[Enigma]

Unfortunately, the attitude of a few around here is that they have nothing to learn from anybody. This much is obvious.

[August]

Actually, we have quite a few things we could learn from the Europeans. The main countries over there have existed longer than the United States has.

As my grandfather used to say, "Age brings wisdom and enlightenment."

But not too many of them have a present form of government that predates ours so i don't see that these former monarchies could teach us much, at least in that regard, except to underscore why they're not the way to go.

[caspofungin]

i agree that the us govt has been around for a long time, but from the tone of some of your compatriots' posts, i was under the impression that the way the us government runs things today is fundamentally different from how washington, jefferson, and madison envisioned things.

anyway, any government, democracy, monarchy, dictatorship, still has to deal w/ various fiscal and foreign policy issues, for example. it's always a good move to learn from your own mistakes, but it's even better to learn from someone elses mistakes before you make your own.

[Boris]

Actually, we have quite a few things we could learn from the Europeans. The main countries over there have existed longer than the United States has.

As my grandfather used to say, "Age brings wisdom and enlightenment."
But not too many of them have a present form of government that predates ours so i don't see that these former monarchies could teach us much, at least in that regard, except to underscore why they're not the way to go.
What does it matter that the US democracy is older? Is older better? Shouldn't the newer democracies be better because they have the benefit of the advancements in political science? I ask these questions rhetorically.
And this may shock many Americans, but democracy is in fact not American, but grew out of Europe and developed over a couple of thousand years :yep:
The American ideals of liberty were inspired by the French revolutionaries...
England had a democratic parliament way before the US.... and democracy originally came from Greece, although the form in which we see it today is pretty different.
Let's face it, the US is a product of European colonisation and centuries of European immigration. I'm not rubbing this in American's faces, this shouldn't even be a bad thing. We're far more similar than you think.

[wireman]

But... Viva la difference !

[Digital_Trucker]

Ah, folks, the US isn't even a democracy:rotfl:, it's a republic.

Seriously, there is no such thing as the perfect government since they are all run by humans and we know how good that life form is at running things:damn:

[SUBMAN1]

Happy is the person who finds fault with himself instead of finding fault with others...:)

:roll: How egocentric! :nope:Hey, I learned this from you! I could never hope to achieve your proficiency however.

-S

[Sailor Steve]

The American ideals of liberty were inspired by the French revolutionaries...
And this may come as a shock to you, but the US Revolution predated the French Revolution, and the latter was inspired by ours, right down to the choice of colors for the flag.
England had a democratic parliament way before the US.... and democracy originally came from Greece, although the form in which we see it today is pretty different.
Let's face it, the US is a product of European colonisation and centuries of European immigration. I'm not rubbing this in American's faces, this shouldn't even be a bad thing. We're far more similar than you think.
On that I agree completely. The US ideal devolved from the work of John Locke and Charles de Montesquieu, and Englishman and a Frenchman respectively. All the enlightenment thinkers, writers, philosiphers and politicians followed those two. They inspired us all, and should be required reading for any discussion on liberty and politics.

[PeriscopeDepth]

On that note, I believe the only Republic that predates the USA is the Dutch Republic.

PD

[Bewolf]

The American ideals of liberty were inspired by the French revolutionaries... And this may come as a shock to you, but the US Revolution predated the French Revolution, and the latter was inspired by ours, right down to the choice of colors for the flag.
England had a democratic parliament way before the US.... and democracy originally came from Greece, although the form in which we see it today is pretty different.
Let's face it, the US is a product of European colonisation and centuries of European immigration. I'm not rubbing this in American's faces, this shouldn't even be a bad thing. We're far more similar than you think. On that I agree completely. The US ideal devolved from the work of John Locke and Charles de Montesquieu, and Englishman and a Frenchman respectively. All the enlightenment thinkers, writers, philosiphers and politicians followed those two. They inspired us all, and should be required reading for any discussion on liberty and politics.

Ehem. Revolutionary tendencies were present long before the actual uprising in France. The principles the founding fathers build upon were references to, amongst others, Rousseau, one of the most influential people in formulating the french revolution's goals. The soon to be US was by then by far not cut off from european development and political/philosophical discourse and many ideas found their way over the atlantic. In fact it's Rousseau, Locke and Kant mostly known for their theories about modern democracy, human rights and the seperation of powers.

[Skybird]

And this may come as a shock to you, but the US Revolution predated the French Revolution, and the latter was inspired by ours, right down to the choice of colors for the flag.

There is little use to nail it down to comparing just two events, just two years, you need to see the historic movement and tradition behind both events. The French revolution actually were three revolutions, or phases if you want. First the implementation of a constitutional monarchy, second the forming of a republic with extremist tendencies in protecting itself, and third the ruling of the directors (don't know how you call that in English), that had to fight both against the basic burgoiesie and the ordinary people, and against the efforts of the "restauration" that tried to reestablish the absolutistic system. All three phases lasted roughly from 1789 to 1799

The American founders, many of them having been deists, also were based in their deism in the european phase of enlightenment. Taking the convent of 1787 as the final point ending the phase of the active "American revolution" (which began in the wars with the French and the Indians 20-25 years earlier), this event then would have been two years earlier then the beginning of the three phases of the French revolution. but it is not really correct to say the one revolution caused or motivated the other. both were separated by a wide ocean, both were basing on a different, a third cultural developement: that of the so-called enlightenment, which made the intellectuals in the fine saloons in the metropoles in the East discuss the latest ideas of european, and especially French forethinkers years before the one or the other revolution "officially" ended. both events actually were no events, but were eras, or historic phases of radical, violent change, lasting 10, 12, 15, even 20 years before finding their ending dates that the history books usually mark as the "revolution event". both revolutions also were to close in date and time as if the one seriously could have effected, not to mention: triggered the other, you shall not forget that travelling back then took its time and the transportation of information and the spreading of new thoughts, of news cultural standards, took its time - probabaly more time then there was in those just two years after the "official" end of the American and before the "official" beginning of the French revolution. the movement of enlightenment changing the cultural climate slowoly in the background of history had the momentum and the inner dynamic to work longer time in advance, and then affect both counties, France AND America.

So, it probably is most correct to say that both revolutionary phases were influenced by the same cultural movement in Europe, the enlightenment, and the attempt to get rid of the absolutistic system, and/or the prevention of this system returning. To say the French caused the American or the American caused the French revolution makes little sense, seen this way. the general movement of the enlightenment is the factor behind both, and initiated the needed change in thoughts in both countries long before the revolutions broke out.

P.S. Ha, just noticed that Bewolf beat me. In principle we say and mean the same.

[Skybird]

On that note, I believe the only Republic that predates the USA is the Dutch Republic.

PD
No. the first giving his definition of the term "republic" was Aristoteles, and the first republic history agress to call as that was the early Roman republic. However, the term knows until today no uniform definition, and over various historic era found varying degrees of tolerance for different forms of government or social order. I think the importance that some people attribute to the term in their nation's self-perception thus is massively exaggerated, since there is no real consensus on what a republic in the end "really", "purely" is. America claims to be no democarcy, but a republic. But France also is a Republic. Wester germany was a republic - the GDR called itself a republic as well, as does China or North Korea. So it makes no sens to say you are a republic, and leave it to that - you could be everything, then. In the end, America, France and Germany then would find themselves agreeing in in saying that they all three are democratic republics in their self-understanding, and that is as good a description as if saying they are all democracies. In the end, the term "republic" means nothing more than a social community that is united by agreeing on a certain set of rules that regulate the form and nature of this social community. that'S why a republic can be an oligarchy, a tyranny both in modern or ancient understanding (very different!), a democarcy, or even a monarchy. During some time of the French revolution, "monarchy" and "republic" were not seen to be mutually exclusive to each other.

[Bewolf]

Too kind, Sky, but unnessecary. That post was informative enough to endure a little expansion on the topic ; )

[PeriscopeDepth]

Okay. I should have said first modern era Republic.

PD

[Skybird]

Okay. I should have said first modern era Republic.

PD
Don't jump off the hook so easily, little fish! :D Okay, no matter if ancient or modern era: what is a republic, then? :know:

[wireman]

Make the bad man stop!

[August]

Let's face it, the US is a product of European colonisation and centuries of European immigration. I'm not rubbing this in American's faces, this shouldn't even be a bad thing. We're far more similar than you think.

Well the millions of Asians and south Americans who have also immigrated to my country over the past two centuries might disagree with that.

Also it's worth noting that our European immigrants were basically rejecting the old world in favor of the new. That alone makes them somewhat a special breed of people.

[Boris]

Let's face it, the US is a product of European colonisation and centuries of European immigration. I'm not rubbing this in American's faces, this shouldn't even be a bad thing. We're far more similar than you think.
Well the millions of Asians and south Americans who have also immigrated to my country over the past two centuries might disagree with that.

Also it's worth noting that our European immigrants were basically rejecting the old world in favor of the new. That alone makes them somewhat a special breed of people.

Don't forget all the Africans too... although their immigration was a little "forced"

But yeah, you're right in that the founders of the USA were a special breed in the sense that they accepted new ways of political thoughts and ideals.

The point of my post though was to try and stop all the we're better than you guff, because it's pointless as no one is neccessarily better than the other. Thinking that you're better than someone else, that is the very definition of arrogance.

[August]

The point of my post though was to try and stop all the we're better than you guff, because it's pointless as no one is neccessarily better than the other. Thinking that you're better than someone else, that is the very definition of arrogance.

No I don't think we're better, just different and imo that's a good thing.

[Sailor Steve]

Ehem. Revolutionary tendencies were present long before the actual uprising in France. The principles the founding fathers build upon were references to, amongst others, Rousseau, one of the most influential people in formulating the french revolution's goals. The soon to be US was by then by far not cut off from european development and political/philosophical discourse and many ideas found their way over the atlantic. In fact it's Rousseau, Locke and Kant mostly known for their theories about modern democracy, human rights and the seperation of powers.
Ehem yourself. I was answering the specific charge by Boris, nothing more. The American revolutionaries were also at it long before the shooting started. As John Adams put it, "The real revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people".

@ Skybird: I never said one event caused the other. I did say that ours inspired theirs. You're right, it does go much further and deeper than that. As always, what happens in the world is a development of many minds playing off each other.

[MothBalls]

As always, what happens in the world is a development of many minds playing off each other.

Or with each other.... :)

[Kapitan_Phillips]

What I find arrogant, is that the original poster seems to enjoy throwing pieces of meat around and hightailing it when the dogs come to feast. This is nothing but a flame-baiter of a thread. :shifty:

[bookworm_020]

I sense a lockdown about to happen!:-?

[August]

I sense a lockdown about to happen!:-?

IBTL? :D

[Biggles]

What I find arrogant, is that the original poster seems to enjoy throwing pieces of meat around and hightailing it when the dogs come to feast. This is nothing but a flame-baiter of a thread. :shifty:

I agree. I'm surprised that it's still alive actually...