Germany in deepest recession ever

[Skybird]

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article2762391/Bundesbank-erwartet-tiefste-Rezession-seit-1949.html

so far no English link, sorry.

As a result from the credit crunch and the crisis in the banking sector, the German federal bank expects for next year a decline of the economy of 1%. That translates into the loss of 200.000 jobs. It is the worst decline of the German economy since founding the Federal Republic of Germany after WWII.

Past experience shows that such calculations almost always are too optimistic and too much wishful thinking. Which means that it probably becomes even worse.

Originally it was planned to present the first balanced state budget since almost 20 years in 2009. but in the wake of the meltdown on the financial market, new debts had to be accepted. These again had been doubled in the latest draft for the 2009 budget today, to compensate for the losses of taxes and increased sociual spendings caused by the banking mess.

the new subprime desaster and the creditc ards crush, both of which are currently in the preparation phase before unfolding in full, have not even been calculated into the Federal bank's projection. I personally think a decline of 3%, slowly unfolding over all of 2009, is possible and not even unlikely, which would mean the loss of 600.000 jobs minimum (the rule of thumb for german economy says one percent of economic growth or loss equals 200.000 jobs). And it could become even worse due to events and new informations currently not forseeable. Or does anybody think that bankers all of a sudden have switched to always saying the truth, especially about the status of their own companies?

[FIREWALL]

Ask yourself where are all the jobs and money going ? And what can I do to stop it ?

Good Luck my friend. :up:

[Skybird]

Analysts and observers are united in attributing it directly to the finance crisis. Germany was in a solid boom before the crisis broke open. You maybe don't want to hear it, but we can directly say thankyou to Wall Street and the american finance market model for having kicked us into a recession, and all world economy along with us. And our politicians have warned of these events since three years and demanded from Washington and london to accept installing better rules for transactions and better supervision to safeguard against failures of individuals, speculators, and banks. Washington and London just laughed. they do not laugh anymore. but the damage they have allowed to take place - still is at our cost. And the demands of not regulating the processes that caused the mess - still are there. The G-20 ended with a declaration with 50 ppoints. but if you look close eniogh you see tzhat all these points are vague forumations, intentions that could interpreted this or that way, and there is almost nothing that would have nailed Washington on accepting that "just the old ways" and laissez-faire are no longer an option. the subcommitees working of filling these vague declarations of intention with solid substance, will start next year. I expect a lot of blockade from Oabama as well as London, and honestly - i expect nothing substantial at all from it.

So, don't smirk. If america would have done its homework, Germany would not have fallen into a recession. Aghain - we have been in a boom and planned for a balanced budget, until the crisis made in the US started to emerge.

[FIREWALL]

What your saying is YOUR investors put all YOUR eggs in OUR basket and they got broken. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That wasn't very smart. :p :nope:






btw a little ot, I just got some really good soaring missions last nite.

Kept me up till 4:00am:dead:

[MothBalls]

You maybe don't want to hear it, but we can directly say thankyou to Wall Street and the american finance market model for having kicked us into a recession, and all world economy along with us.

So, don't smirk. If america would have done its homework, Germany would not have fallen into a recession.
Can you give us a link to the mandate, executive order, or law, that forced Germany to make American investments?

Can you offer any proof that America hasn't paid any debts owed to Germany?

During your recent boom economy, how much of that was due to imports to America?


Things are what they are. Get over it. The whole situation is a ****t sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite. Right now you're sitting in a warm house with running water and electricity and have a full belly. Time to start being thankful for what you do have, for it may be gone soon.

Quick focusing on the blame and start working on a solution. The reality is that we can no longer ride the coattails of our parents and grandparents hard work and sacrifice.

It's our turn now. We are going to have to make sacrifices. We are going to have to work harder and smarter than ever before. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

I'm thankful I live in the country that's going to do everything it takes to make it better.

[jpm1]

In the news tonight there was a report on about how people in Nebraska abandon their kids because they canno't afford their education anymore , simply SPEECHLESS

[RickC Sniper]

In the news tonight there was a report on about how people in Nebraska abandon their kids because they canno't afford their education anymore , simply SPEECHLESS

Public school in Nebraska is not financed by the state?? Property taxes are the main revenue that finances schools.

Public schools are not paid for by charging the kid's parents a tuition.

[Lurchi]

It is true - noone compelled german or any other banks to invest in the U.S. market.

It is also true that many companies made large profits in the U.S.A. as it is still a very important market for BMW, Mercedes, VW and Porsche - even Airbus.

I think the U.S. ranks 5th place among Germany's most valuable trade partners, with the UK getting in 4th recently. From this one can see that we should have every interest that America gets its problems fixed which -of course- does not mean that we have plenty to solve of our own ...

[Skybird]

You maybe don't want to hear it, but we can directly say thankyou to Wall Street and the american finance market model for having kicked us into a recession, and all world economy along with us.

So, don't smirk. If america would have done its homework, Germany would not have fallen into a recession.
Can you give us a link to the mandate, executive order, or law, that forced Germany to make American investments?

Can you offer any proof that America hasn't paid any debts owed to Germany?

During your recent boom economy, how much of that was due to imports to America?


Things are what they are. Get over it. The whole situation is a ****t sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite. Right now you're sitting in a warm house with running water and electricity and have a full belly. Time to start being thankful for what you do have, for it may be gone soon.

Quick focusing on the blame and start working on a solution. The reality is that we can no longer ride the coattails of our parents and grandparents hard work and sacrifice.

It's our turn now. We are going to have to make sacrifices. We are going to have to work harder and smarter than ever before. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

I'm thankful I live in the country that's going to do everything it takes to make it better.
Hm, I suppose now i am expected to laugh. Please don't mind if I pass.

[Skybird]

It is true - noone compelled german or any other banks to invest in the U.S. market.

It is also true that many companies made large profits in the U.S.A. as it is still a very important market for BMW, Mercedes, VW and Porsche - even Airbus.

I think the U.S. ranks 5th place among Germany's most valuable trade partners, with the UK getting in 4th recently. From this one can see that we should have every interest that America gets its problems fixed which -of course- does not mean that we have plenty to solve of our own ...
not at the cost of leaving america such an unbalöanced consumer and extreme spender and money-lender that it is, becasue then we only delay the blowback of an deepßly unhealthy situation - a delay at the price of increasing the final bill to be payed, by them, by us, by us all.

germany always made one strategic mistake: it has mkistaken strong exports to be a strategic strength. In fact, it is the exact opposite, since it means strong dependence on the good will of others. This leaves germany always in an exposed position.

While it is true that foreign economies were not forced to fall for american finance products, it nevertheless were American banks spreading these in the world, inventing them, propagating them, setting them up like baits, and refusing any regulation or monitoring of them to safeguard agaimnst their risks, especially the often demanded regulating of hedgefonds is on my mind, the american rejection to accept implementing of measures that would rpeevnt banks from being able to sell away the risks of their risky operation is another major point. To say nobody forced other nations to fall for these practices and being fooled by their promises is like saying that it is the fish's mistake that the fisherman has brought out a line. And in case of aggressively, almost warlike operating hedgefonds, it compares even more to saying that it is the deers fault that it did not evade the shot when the hunter shoots it over long distance.

The system is the problem, and it must be replaced. that a massive chnage of the ways in which global economy is being done, is following in the wake of this, muist not be explicitly mentioned, I assume. And since almost all and everybody does not wish this massive chnage which is nothing but a revolution, things will continue to fall apart and detoriate for a long time to come. what I wish for, probably is an utopia. what I realistically assume to happen indeed, is a maelstrom. It will not result in a better world or economy order, but in greater chaos.

[MothBalls]

Please don't mind if I pass.

Don't mind at all.

Mothballs=1 Skybird=0

When you keep throwing stones at my country, don't expect me to "pass". I'll just give you another pasting that you can't respond to.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Hello global customer.

Welcome to the U.S. Liberal foreign policy system. We're here to make the world a better place.

If you are experiencing problems with your economy due to liberal U.S. economic policy, please press 1, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly to explain how it is all ok.

If your nation's currency is being affected by the strength of the U.S. dollar, please press 2, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly to explain how it is all ok.

If you require a loan from American taxpayers, please press 3, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly.

If you require a loan from a foreign country at the expense of American taxpayers, please press 4, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly.

If your country is a wealthy central European nation, please wait for the click.

If your country is experiencing a U.S. military invasion, please insert your phone into the second-smallest body orifice that is not located on your head.

(I do love my little jokes, whether they are funny or not:D
No serious commentary intended.)

[Skybird]

Please don't mind if I pass.

Don't mind at all.

Mothballs=1 Skybird=0

When you keep throwing stones at my country, don't expect me to "pass". I'll just give you another pasting that you can't respond to.
If it makes you sleep well to interpret it that way, I wish you good dreams - America does a lot of dreaming while leaving behind a trail of dreams turned into rubble others have to clean up behind you.

[MothBalls]

America does a lot of dreaming while leaving behind a trail of dreams turned into rubble others have to clean up behind you.

I can get you a broom and a shovel at a good price. (I'll have to ask for cash up front. We stopped extending credit to countries experiencing self induced recessions.)

[wireman]

I don't think it yet approaches the great depression.

[nikimcbee]

Hello global customer.

Welcome to the U.S. Liberal foreign policy system. We're here to make the world a better place.

If you are experiencing problems with your economy due to liberal U.S. economic policy, please press 1, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly to explain how it is all ok.

If your nation's currency is being affected by the strength of the U.S. dollar, please press 2, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly to explain how it is all ok.

If you require a loan from American taxpayers, please press 3, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly.

If you require a loan from a foreign country at the expense of American taxpayers, please press 4, and a representative of the Democratic party will be with you shortly.

If your country is a wealthy central European nation, please wait for the click.

If your country is experiencing a U.S. military invasion, please insert your phone into the second-smallest body orifice that is not located on your head.

(I do love my little jokes, whether they are funny or not:D
No serious commentary intended.)
Beep.
-you have selected gov't bail-out. If you are a spouse/contractor of a democratic senator please press 1. If you need this en espanyol, emprimo numero 9.

[Sea Demon]

Things are what they are. Get over it. The whole situation is a ****t sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite. Right now you're sitting in a warm house with running water and electricity and have a full belly. Time to start being thankful for what you do have, for it may be gone soon.

Quick focusing on the blame and start working on a solution. The reality is that we can no longer ride the coattails of our parents and grandparents hard work and sacrifice.

Standing ovation for you Mothballs. Well said. I would only like to add that we do need to search for the cause only to learn from it. People need to take responsibility for themselves, and push for accountability for all. I was going to add more, but I think you sufficiently covered the main stuff Mothballs. :up:

And it looks like you may be on your way to Skybird's sh**list as well. Congratulations. That happens when you threaten his sense of self-aggrandizing. Enjoy.

[Onkel Neal]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:

[PeriscopeDepth]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:
Have to agree here. I can't see why it's America's fault German firms bought into American funds/securities. They looked good to American traders as well.

PD

[Skybird]

America does a lot of dreaming while leaving behind a trail of dreams turned into rubble others have to clean up behind you.

I can get you a broom and a shovel at a good price. (I'll have to ask for cash up front. We stopped extending credit to countries experiencing self induced recessions.)
Not self-induced - US-induced. The finaical crisis that has kicked global economy into recession, that has made international stockmarkets loosing 35 trillion in the past 6 months, and will kill several million jobs over 2008 and 2009, is made in America, by an America-wanted model that sold financial products around the globe that were invented by american banks, which America prevented from and defended against closer rules that would have helped to safeguard the abuse of them through gamblers and casiono-players, and that America still wants to be protected against closer rules that would prevent them to do what they did in the past. and as the parallel thread I started yesterday shows, these people already have started again to abuse the saystem, and to abuse the finacial aids, and obviously have not learned anything, and do not intend to turn things for th ebetter whule their market is left to this holy cow named "self-regulation", a fetish for america. This all proves just one thing: the market DOEs NOT regulate itself, america does not want to prevent the abuse of the system, and it does not mind to have triggered the worst crisis since the great depression, and does not care for having led the basis for this in the years before by excessive spenidng and wasting more money than it can afford, and turning into the greatest debtor known in history.

But it'S always the others fault. America is holy, and does only good. Yeah. Sure. It'S so great a nation in all the damage it has imposed onto others, the world necessarily must be "jeaulous", and where we criticise america for it'S ways, we are just greedy and evil.

Whom do you - and others - deceive here? Me? Or yourself?

[PeriscopeDepth]

A bit of a premature judgment, IMO Sky. We'll know for certain in 12-20 years IMO. Excess is just becoming a matter of public attention. Subsim is a bit of a skewed place for casting judgment on a whole country. IMO, America really starts to shine when the boot is stepping on her throat. Everything before that is politics. Which I suppose is embodied in that Churchill quote.

PD

[Skybird]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:
Once again, we were in a boom, and a very strong one. Unemployment was on a record-low, exports boosting, there was more work than we had skilled workers. Not even the high oil price was able to kill the boom, just slowed it a bit. And then came Wall Street. mortage crisis. Credit crush, picking away at the exports. Voilá, there we are in the deepest recession since the founding of Germany. thanks, but no thanks.

And it is not just Germany. It is all the globe America has pulled with itself into the abyss.

Yes, it has been America'S fault this time, beyond any doubt, known since years. And we - especially Germany - told you so since three years, and warned for the need of safeguarding agaisnt it by reducing the freedom for abuse and casino-gambiling by those that were protected by Washington - and still are - and then, surprise-surprise, did what they were to be expected, and ruined the show for all. The deeply unhealthy financial policy of America, its enormous defict, its enormous trade disbaöance, its enormous dependency on foreign finacial drips since it live totally and completely beyond its means - all this has caused the mess we now are in, and still we here america's model is well, and the greatest, and regulations serving as safeties shall not be added to it to correct at least the worse flaws and faults in the system.

You have no right to be in a huff. But we have all legitimate reason and right there is to be very angry with you. and even now, while the drama starts to unfold in all its glory (so far we have had the overture only), America seem to be too stubborn to learn and to reflect about itself and to see that the old ways can no longer be seen as valid ways again. the same business practices that led to the first credit crunch, now are unfolding a new phase of suprime crisis, right now. That is what your laissez-faire leads to, and your self-regulating market: the got away with it the first time, so now they do it again. If they were successful with betraying the community and absuing the flaws of the system - why should they give up such personally lucrative practices, if no rules and supervision is hindering them?

Yes indeed, Neral, this time it is America's fault, and that'S why I - and many others! - pojnt finger at you in anger, becasue not only did you damage yourself - you also caused massive damage to us, damage for which we are not responisble, but you and you alone.
your great fantastic business model encourages human faults and flaws taking advantage by abusing the holes in your system. It triggers them, and produces them. And you stubbornly defend against closing these holes, and called that repair a "planned economy". The simple truth is: your system failed, and very costly.

[Skybird]

A bit of a premature judgment, IMO Sky. We'll know for certain in 12-20 years IMO. Excess is just becoming a matter of public attention. Subsim is a bit of a skewed place for casting judgment on a whole country. IMO, America really starts to shine when the boot is stepping on her throat. Everything before that is politics. Which I suppose is embodied in that Churchill quote.

PD

12-20 years for what? And I am talklijg about the economic basis of your country only, not the whoole country like culture, mentality, science, arts. But economically, it is a mess, and causes havoc in others as well. Just think of this economic cancer used as a weapopn, called hedge fonts. Even minimal supervision for these had been repelled by Washington, and so they move on, ruining healthy companies, and leave them behind as hulls with high debts and all blood sucked out. Hedge fonts should not be reglated - they should be forbidden since they villate every reason andaegument for healthy economics. Destroying healthy parts of economy is not in the interest of anyone except those gamblers hoping to mkae a profit by killing a company and rob the dead or too-weak-to-resist corpus.

Fate may have mercy with us if chruchill was right. That american strategy he describes may easily prove to be too costly for us, our civilisation, and our planet.why always waiting for destater having taking place, and then repairing and clenaing up? why not trying to safeguard against it in advance, to prevent it? does one always need to die first - just to accept that one had been in danger to one's life?

[PeriscopeDepth]

A bit of a premature judgment, IMO Sky. We'll know for certain in 12-20 years IMO. Excess is just becoming a matter of public attention. Subsim is a bit of a skewed place for casting judgment on a whole country. IMO, America really starts to shine when the boot is stepping on her throat. Everything before that is politics. Which I suppose is embodied in that Churchill quote.

PD
12-20 years for what? And I am talklijg about the economic basis of your country only, not the whoole country like culture, mentality, science, arts. But economically, it is a mess, and causes havoc in others as well. Just think of this economic cancer used as a weapopn, called hedge fonts. Even minimal supervision for these had been repelled by Washington, and so they move on, ruining healthy companies, and leave them behind as hulls with high debts and all blood sucked out. Hedge fonts should not be reglated - they should be forbidden since they villate every reason andaegument for healthy economics. Destroying healthy parts of economy is not in the interest of anyone except those gamblers hoping to mkae a profit by killing a company and rob the dead or too-weak-to-resist corpus.
A national conscious to emerge on the issue of market regulation. It hasn't even been considered by more than a handful of people until recently.

And if you think hedge funds are bad, credit default swaps are several times more vile.

Our (bloated) financial system funds our (and the world's, to a degree) economy. Everybody was holding crappy assets, and got caught. Only a few people realized how bad it was, and all these people held off on that realization in the interest of profit. You can only fudge your P&L for so long.

PD

[Skybird]

P&L? What'S that?

[PeriscopeDepth]

Fate may have mercy with us if chruchill was right. That american strategy he describes may easily prove to be too costly for us, our civilisation, and our planet.why always waiting for destater having taking place, and then repairing and clenaing up? why not trying to safeguard against it in advance, to prevent it? does one always need to die first - just to accept that one had been in danger to one's life?
Because a few people get far too rich off it before everybody else gets pissed off. And it may well take another major war to sort out.

The American populace is certainly not the only one in the world to be overly complacent. What makes us unique is that we are one of a few (realistically, the only one in a conventional war) that presently has the power to change the world through force.

PD

[PeriscopeDepth]

P&L? What'S that?

Sorry, I was referring to a company's profit and loss sheet.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-profit-and-loss-pl-statement.htm

PD

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, right :rotfl:

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:
Once again, we were in a boom, and a very strong one. Unemployment was on a record-low, exports boosting, there was more work than we had skilled workers. Not even the high oil price was able to kill the boom, just slowed it a bit. And then came Wall Street. mortage crisis. Credit crush, picking away at the exports. Voilá, there we are in the deepest recession since the founding of Germany. thanks, but no thanks.

And it is not just Germany. It is all the globe America has pulled with itself into the abyss.

Yes, it has been America'S fault this time, beyond any doubt, known since years. And we - especially Germany - told you so since three years, and warned for the need of safeguarding agaisnt it by reducing the freedom for abuse and casino-gambiling by those that were protected by Washington - and still are - and then, surprise-surprise, did what they were to be expected, and ruined the show for all. The deeply unhealthy financial policy of America, its enormous defict, its enormous trade disbaöance, its enormous dependency on foreign finacial drips since it live totally and completely beyond its means - all this has caused the mess we now are in, and still we here america's model is well, and the greatest, and regulations serving as safeties shall not be added to it to correct at least the worse flaws and faults in the system.

You have no right to be in a huff. But we have all legitimate reason and right there is to be very angry with you. and even now, while the drama starts to unfold in all its glory (so far we have had the overture only), America seem to be too stubborn to learn and to reflect about itself and to see that the old ways can no longer be seen as valid ways again. the same business practices that led to the first credit crunch, now are unfolding a new phase of suprime crisis, right now. That is what your laissez-faire leads to, and your self-regulating market: the got away with it the first time, so now they do it again. If they were successful with betraying the community and absuing the flaws of the system - why should they give up such personally lucrative practices, if no rules and supervision is hindering them?

Yes indeed, Neral, this time it is America's fault, and that'S why I - and many others! - pojnt finger at you in anger, becasue not only did you damage yourself - you also caused massive damage to us, damage for which we are not responisble, but you and you alone.
your great fantastic business model encourages human faults and flaws taking advantage by abusing the holes in your system. It triggers them, and produces them. And you stubbornly defend against closing these holes, and called that repair a "planned economy". The simple truth is: your system failed, and very costly.

[Skybird]

Yeah, right :rotfl:


Yes Neal, simply this: right. You have no reason to laugh at all.

[TDK1044]

If the German members here are an accurate representation of the average German voter, then the German education system has much to answer for.

To be an arrogant race is one thing, but to be stupid and arrogant is dangerous and leads to the kind of nonsense posted in this thread.

I'm sure there are other Forums better suited to your gifts, Skybird, and where the intellect level might be low enough for people to buy into your BS.

Do us all a favor and try one.

[Morts]

and where the intellect level might be low enough for people to buy into your BS.

Do us all a favor and try one.
hey ! i guess thats where Subman should go too:rotfl:

[Skybird]

If the German members here are an accurate representation of the average German voter, then the German education system has much to answer for.

To be an arrogant race is one thing, but to be stupid and arrogant is dangerous and leads to the kind of nonsense posted in this thread.

I'm sure there are other Forums better suited to your gifts, Skybird, and where the intellect level might be low enough for people to buy into your BS.

Do us all a favor and try one.
Do yourself a favour , and grow.

The greatest arrogance there can be is to mess it up for all others - and afterwards still risking a big mouth how great and wonderful one is, and to demand those who one does damage to fall to their knees and be uncritical and eternally thankful for it. The american banking model dominated the world business routines in this field, and caused the greatest accident known since WWI. that means it is a failure of the american model. and to quote the german federal president from just two or three days ago: by damage and consequence the financial crisis is more dangeorus and threatening than international terrorism is. And you great and holy and innocent ones still want to lecture the world about that we should run things your way after you spelled desaster onto yourself, and on us as well!? You deserve getting spanked.

When it comes to talking about arrogance, you should remain tight-lipped and with a shameful red flush in your face. America damaged the world with this year's stunts and their introduction in the past years - not the world damaged America. Of all problems the world has today, America has now emerged to be the biggest, blocking improvements on several others as well.

[gandalf71]

If the German members here are an accurate representation of the average German voter, then the German education system has much to answer for.

To be an arrogant race is one thing, but to be stupid and arrogant is dangerous and leads to the kind of nonsense posted in this thread.

I'm sure there are other Forums better suited to your gifts, Skybird, and where the intellect level might be low enough for people to buy into your BS.

Do us all a favor and try one.

Thank You TDK1044, finally somebody found some clear words for this ridiculous bull**** and I completly agree with your point of view!

It´s always easy to blame somebody else for their own problems. The question now is not longer what has gone wrong and who is responsible for this, the question is how we can get ourselves out of that ****. I don´t know the answer to that question, but I do know that pointing the finger on somebody to blame won´t help anybody.

Cheers,
Michael

[wireman]

I've read in The Inquirer that Philippe Oddo, CEO of the French private bank Oddo was detained by American bankers and held at gunpoint until he agreed to take shares in some very juicy loans that turned out to be rotten.
Now Oddo bank is bankrupt and the customers whose single innocent error was to be lured by great profit rates have lost most of their money, and they're pointing their finger at the US financial system. And rightly so I might add !


"...and the customers whose single innocent error was to be lured by great profit rates..."

That says it all. Sounds like greed is universal. We Americans must have brought it with us from the "Old country (ies)".

[MothBalls]

I would only like to add that we do need to search for the cause only to learn from it. People need to take responsibility for themselves, and push for accountability for all.

And it looks like you may be on your way to Skybird's sh**list as well.

Definitely agree there. We need to get to the root cause and prevent it from happening again. If we find any scapegoats, we'll send them to a country club prison for white collar crime. The real people responsible are too smart to get caught anyway.

I'm not an expert, but from my chair it looks fairly simple.
=======================================
Joe the worker buys a house for $400,000.

Bank loans Joe $400,000.

Bank now reports asset of $400,000.

Housing bubble pops.

House is now worth $200,000.

Joe the worker stops making payments.

Even after the foreclosure, bank now only has $200,000 asset to cover $400,000 loss in loan.

Multiply that by a few million times......
===================================

Of course it's more complicated than that. That $400,000 asset in a fractional reserve system created more money out of thin air. So when Joe defaulted, it wasn't only the $200,000 loss, but everything else that it created. Start factoring in credit swaps, derivatives, etc...

= chit sandwich. Of course you know in America, we had to supersize it then add bacon and cheese. Go ahead, take a bite. All of us will eventually.

I don't mind being on Skybird's chitlist. I bet at one point in time, all of us are members. Healthy debate is good, sometimes even fun. It's even more fun when you ask him a question he can't answer. :doh:

[Frame57]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:Just like a dysfunctional family where the kids blame "Ma and Pa" for their problems...:yep:

[Morts]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:Just like a dysfunctional family where the kids blame "Ma and Pa" for their problems...:yep:
difference is though, most of the time..problems can be traced back to the parents.
America isnt to blame for everything

[Digital_Trucker]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:Just like a dysfunctional family where the kids blame "Ma and Pa" for their problems...:yep: difference is though, most of the time..problems can be traced back to the parents.
America isnt to blame for everything
Besides, America is the kid and the rest of the world are the parents:rotfl:

[Morts]

It's always "America's fault" when things go wrong in other countries... :roll:Just like a dysfunctional family where the kids blame "Ma and Pa" for their problems...:yep: difference is though, most of the time..problems can be traced back to the parents.
America isnt to blame for everything
Besides, America is the kid and the rest of the world are the parents:rotfl:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[SUBMAN1]

Let me throw a wrench into Skybirds socket here and see if he can answer this one:

Using your logic, I guess the US can also be credited with Germany's economic boom too then, no?

You blame the bust on us, so the boom must also be us. Simple logic applied to the works of a simple mind of SB.

-S

[Fish]

Let me throw a wrench into Skybirds socket here and see if he can answer this one:

Using your logic, I guess the US can also be credited with Germany's economic boom too then, no?

You blame the bust on us, so the boom must also be us. Simple logic applied to the works of a simple mind of SB.

-S

You are absolutely right, work of a simple mind. :yep:

[Skybird]

Let me throw a wrench into Skybirds socket here and see if he can answer this one:

Using your logic, I guess the US can also be credited with Germany's economic boom too then, no?

You blame the bust on us, so the boom must also be us. Simple logic applied to the works of a simple mind of SB.

-S

You are absolutely right, work of a simple mind. :yep:
So, when a plane falls down the sky due to a malfunctioning engine, it must have taken off due to a malfuctioning engine, too - is that what you try to tell us about what your understanding of logic is? Well, logic never has been one of your strengths. We appreciate your intention to contribute something valuable to this discussion, but honestly said - i think your are somewhat handicapped.

Or in brief, Subman, while you are already on my ignore list since longer time now and will not be directly adressed by me anymore, answer me my favour of ignoring you personally on equal terms, if you please.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=988677&postcount=45
If you please. I think we two are more than done with each other.

[Rockstar]

Since 1973 the U.S. GDP has fallen. But it is documented, the plane has been falling for the last 35 years. So not only didn't you look before stepping on the one plane with bum engines you forgot to take your parachute. Looks to me sombody made a poor choice of airlines. Thats what happens when any governement books your flight. ;)

What's so special about the year 1973? What happened then to cause the economy to slow down?

Actually, nothing. No unusual event occurred that year.

It's simply that 1973 appears to be when the weight of government finally made a significant difference on the economy. Government spending and regulation reached the point that they were causing visible problems. It's hard to realize today — when we have a $2 trillion federal budget — that in 1961 the government spent less than $100 billion. But by 1971 the budget had more than doubled. And by 1975 it had more than tripled — in just 14 years from 1961. Today the federal budget is twenty times the size it was forty years ago. And with the increased federal spending came far-reaching new regulations. Those were the years of the New Frontier, The Great Society, and The Great Society II (the Nixon years), and they gave the government enormous new powers with which to hamper private business. We saw the enactment of Medicare, Medicaid, the Civil Rights Acts, the Clean Air Act, the War on Drugs, and price controls on oil — plus the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). All these intrusions forced companies to rearrange their business methods to please politicians and bureaucrats — rather than their customers and employees. .

Anywys, despite all the legends about the Reagan boom, there really were only two good economic years in the 1980s — 1983 and 1984 — and during the eight Reagan years average growth was only 2.9% a year. And despite all the hoopla about the Clinton prosperity, the average growth in those years was only 3.7% per year — less than the average through the prosperity, inflation, and recessions of the pre-1973 years. Conservative and liberal activists crow about the "prosperous" 1980s or 1990s. But, in fact, both periods were anemic when compared with the pre-1973 years and now it's even worse. The load of government has long since become too much for the economy to carry effortlessly.

And as though the economy weren't suffering enough already, along came 9/11. Needless to say, the event didn't cause the government to reexamine its foreign policy or to slim down — to give the economy the necessary freedom to adjust to our new needs. No chance. Instead, 9/11 has provided the perfect excuse to accelerate government growth. Not one federal program has been cut to accommodate the new spending plans. Instead, we get more government heaped on top of all that's already weighing down the economy. Such things as the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Department have to hurt the economy. Traveling businessmen lose an hour or two from their workdays because of airport security. Companies have to rearrange their affairs to comply with new reporting requirements. Sending 150,000 soldiers to Iraq has to hurt the economy. They could have been producing goods and services that would enhance our lives. These things add up. Yes, military spending helps some companies. But the rest of us who pay for that spending have to go without other things we wanted more. And the politicians have promised that this struggle will last for years and years — perhaps for the rest of our lives.

It's obvious that the politicians won't do what's required to restore the vibrant economy we once had. The tax cuts are no remedy, because the federal government spends $2 trillion every year. Where will that come from? Obviously, from me and other Americans. Any change in the tax rates changes only the method by which we pay the $2 trillion; it doesn't change the amount. So we can't expect the politicians to rescue the economy. There may be upward blips in economic statistics and the investment markets from time to time, but the long-term outlook for the economy will remain grim until there are dramatic reductions in the government's spending, controls, and intrusions. And that doesn't appear likely in the near future. At some point we may slide into an extended period of "negative growth" — a contraction of the economy — that drags on for several years, rather than just two or three calendar quarters.

What really gets my hackles up is we are now looking to borrow big cash from the Gulf States.

[Onkel Neal]

Let me throw a wrench into Skybirds socket here and see if he can answer this one:

Using your logic, I guess the US can also be credited with Germany's economic boom too then, no?

You blame the bust on us, so the boom must also be us. Simple logic applied to the works of a simple mind of SB.

-S


So, when a plane falls down the sky due to a malfunctioning engine, it must have taken off due to a malfuctioning engine, too - is that what you try to tell us about what your understanding of logic is? Well, logic never has been one of your strengths. We appreciate your intention to contribute something valuable to this discussion, but honestly said - i think your are somewhat handicapped.


I think your analogy would be more accurate to say that you blame a malfunctioning engine when it causes the plane to fall from the sky, and you praise a working engine for the many, many flawless take-offs and journeys... ;)

.

[Skybird]

Let me throw a wrench into Skybirds socket here and see if he can answer this one:

Using your logic, I guess the US can also be credited with Germany's economic boom too then, no?

You blame the bust on us, so the boom must also be us. Simple logic applied to the works of a simple mind of SB.

-S


So, when a plane falls down the sky due to a malfunctioning engine, it must have taken off due to a malfuctioning engine, too - is that what you try to tell us about what your understanding of logic is? Well, logic never has been one of your strengths. We appreciate your intention to contribute something valuable to this discussion, but honestly said - i think your are somewhat handicapped.


I think your analogy would be more accurate to say that you blame a malfunctioning engine when it causes the plane to fall from the sky, and you praise a working engine for the many, many flawless take-offs and journeys... ;)

.
that may be your view on real economy, but I was directly referring not to real world events, but Subman's absurd construction . ;)

[Skybird]

Let me throw a wrench into Skybirds socket here and see if he can answer this one:

Using your logic, I guess the US can also be credited with Germany's economic boom too then, no?

You blame the bust on us, so the boom must also be us. Simple logic applied to the works of a simple mind of SB.

-S


So, when a plane falls down the sky due to a malfunctioning engine, it must have taken off due to a malfuctioning engine, too - is that what you try to tell us about what your understanding of logic is? Well, logic never has been one of your strengths. We appreciate your intention to contribute something valuable to this discussion, but honestly said - i think your are somewhat handicapped.


I think your analogy would be more accurate to say that you blame a malfunctioning engine when it causes the plane to fall from the sky, and you praise a working engine for the many, many flawless take-offs and journeys... ;)

.
that may be your view on real economy, but I was directly referring not to real world events, but Subman's absurd construction . ;)

[SUBMAN1]

That may be your view on real economy, but I was directly referring not to real world events, but Subman's absurd construction . ;)I'd venture to say your comments were absurd and mine are fine and simply showing you the errors of your ways. ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird
Or in brief, Subman, while you are already on my ignore list since longer time now and will not be directly adressed by me anymore, answer me my favour of ignoring you personally on equal terms, if you please.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...7&postcount=45 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=988677&postcount=45)

If you please. I think we two are more than done with each other. This won't save you when you post something completely stupid. Sorry, but i can't let you slide on a topic as dumb as this one.

-S

PS. Something just popped into my head, using this logic that it is never Germany's fault is classic Germany and exactly the same method Hitler used to get to power. Careful with your ideas.

[jeremy8529]

Skybird, as angry as you are at our country, I will be the first to admit that our system is not perfect. The way you charge your words you sound as if you are angry at the average citizen for simply trying to afford a house payment, that is swept out from under his feet like a doormat ,and when they can no longer afford their payment due to economic pressures it causes backlash unfortunately for you and the rest of the world. The average American did not force the average German to buy the loans issued not from the average American, but from a not average American wall street CEO. The American people are no more at fault for this crisis than you are skybird, except for the fact that we put our trust into politicians that we have no control over once they are elected that have made horrible mistakes in not properly regulating the market. The fault is to be placed with a select few of the ruling class, which is made up of crooked politicians and greedy corporate executives.

All in all Skybird, the whole thing is real bad all around, It's a very unfortunate event that is still unfolding before us, and that we must make the best of it we can, but at this moment in time bickering and words will not make it any better, if you want to make a change, action is needed.

[Skybird]

Skybird, as angry as you are at our country, I will be the first to admit that our system is not perfect. The way you charge your words you sound as if you are angry at the average citizen for simply trying to afford a house payment, that is swept out from under his feet like a doormat ,and when they can no longer afford their payment due to economic pressures it causes backlash unfortunately for you and the rest of the world. The average American did not force the average German to buy the loans issued not from the average American, but from a not average American wall street CEO. The American people are no more at fault for this crisis than you are skybird, except for the fact that we put our trust into politicians that we have no control over once they are elected that have made horrible mistakes in not properly regulating the market. The fault is to be placed with a select few of the ruling class, which is made up of crooked politicians and greedy corporate executives.

All in all Skybird, the whole thing is real bad all around, It's a very unfortunate event that is still unfolding before us, and that we must make the best of it we can, but at this moment in time bickering and words will not make it any better, if you want to make a change, action is needed.

Well, to make that clear, as often before in the past 8 years, I make a difference between the individual standing before me with whom I talk, and the political entity the nation on the US is. There are certainly differences in living styles and mentality between the US, and the varous countries in Europe; and eventually (in a generalised, non-personal way), criticism of a living style'S details (when it is forming a major component of that people'S habits indeed) could be understood as a criticism of individual's behavior, yes. but all in all I stick to what I always said: I may criticise the US for much that it is responsible for as a politically acting, global-consequences-causing entity - but that does not mean that I "hate" the individual american person on a personal, private basis, that is total nonsens - no matter how often people like subman, Sea Demon, August or others try to make it look different, and illustrate they do not differ between their own person and the country they live which is either a form of totalitarianism or a psychiatric symptom of lacking borders between "me" and "environment".

I do not hoold Joe avergae responsible for having the desire to live in his own little house made of wood, houses that often are really not that big and special at all. when I talk of excessive spending, I would prefer to refer to a culture that is used to buy on credit, and banks having estoblished a roputine to give you a new credit card once the old one'S limits have been reached, becaseu they can make an income from encouraging you to make debts, and keeping you to be a debtor - in fact, to answer the end of a credit line with giving a new credit card is a lucrative business as long as the risks from this irresponsioble bsuiness pratice (born by greed and profit-hunger of banks) could be extrnalised and sold awqay and distruibuted around all globe. This is what has happened! When I say the Us is the greatest consumer in all th world, it is not about joe avergage gaving a car and a small house of wood in soke sidestreet, it is the generalised statistic mean value saying that per head, the statistics are this and that. But I admit this: that I have gotten the impression that america and americans take a lot of their typical way of living as granted. that is nothing unnormal, germans do that as well. It's just that gwrmans are not in the postion to export that around the world and making the world being affected by their habit, or making the world adapting to that habit. But America and Americans can do that - and it does. I think that quite some people in your nation think the world is just there to serve your interest and that it is your right to take that as granted. the interest to see a foreign place as actually being foreing, non-american, independant indeed, is relatively small. It already starts with the languge! you can travel around the globe, and almost everyhwere you can assume that you must not learn the foreign language, but you can assume that you can come around somehow by sticking to your own language! ;) the others adapt to you anyhow, so why changing yourself? Don't feel attacked by me, try to see my point.

Also note this difference i make between the political level, and the military. My attitude on the Iraq war is well known and well-illustrate by now - it totally refuse it, and did so from day one on. but I never criticies the generals or individual soldiers (where they were not involved in some scandals and prisoner abuses, nor did I ever held the individual GI responsible for the political lobbying of the so-called industrial-military complex. It just wouldn't make sense.

Take my criticism by the word on the level on which it is meant - the super-personal, the institutional, cultural, political level: not the personal level of individuals. You can criticise a nation and still be friend with a citizen living in that nation, like you can like a nation and not liking somebody from that nation. So, if you take my criticism personally, then you are wrong. Hell, I don'T know you, so how should I know wether I could like you or not? Many people here probably would give me different impressions in reallife, than they do here in the forum - and it wouldn'T be different for them with regard to my person.

I am very critically of my own country as well, just see how often and herfty I have attacked Germany opportunistic but orientationless Afghanistan-policy, or the EU. I just would like to send Merkel to the moon and think she does not have what it takes, and our great coalition is the second worst political constellation possibole with thes eparties in parliament. If I would not separate between person and nation, then it would mean that by saying all that - I would attack myself, right? ;)

I agree, deeds are needed, but I disagree on the US' - political - decision not to allow too many changes in a system that has proven not only to allow abuse, but even to encourage abuse, and already proves that right now it even motivates for abuse of the aid being given, implemented by the same motivation and comparable procedures. The responsible "hearoes" of unregulated market business illustrate this very moment that they have learned nothign and that all appell for ethically responsible behavior has met deaf ears, and greed and selfish profit-interest still are as dominant as before. Leavingn that untouched in the name of liberal market-philosophy? It will give us more of the desaSTER WE JUJST FAce, and those responsibole will get rewarded by this lacking limitation of their intrigues, and again joe Avergage will be the victim and will be left with paying the bills for the big sharks in the pool. Here, I insist on identifying the faulty assumptions and those who held them up, and to hold them responsible instead of cleanwashing their white shirts - else I cannot see how the deeds needed could take place. That'S why I point fingers. Because deeds that are needed will not be sufficient if they do not result in substantial changes to policies and lacking rules that still are being held up by some although they still cause damage that is still unfolding. Here, my criticism aims at the political as well as the cultural level, because the different living styles and ways of life are a factor here, too. were bankers or people do not voluntarily stop doing bad, they must be regulated - the market obviously does not regulate itself here, we see the evidence every day, every day, every day. It is highly questionable if it ever had that ablity.

I am no socialist. I want as much regulation as needed - but as little as possible. I am realist - no regulation at all simply collides with human nature that includes self-preservation and egoism - it never has and never will work without rules. Laissez-faire is one of the worst options. It is the path back into the jungle. sometimes, this forum is living proof for that, and the one yelling the loudest and offending the most personally, feels as the winner.

And it is not as if i am alone with what I criticise, and the criticism is not originally my own invention. It's not, really. amongst those not having profit interests in America, and not being dependant on the status quo in the global, american dominated banking model, my criticism forms the clear majority opinion. There must be substantial changes to the system. You say that thread on "Black Swans"? The guy I talked of there even demands that the system must be replaced. It is hard to argue with him since he made a fortune by his different views of things, and correctly foretold the unfolding of events.

Okay, enougn about my person again, this thread is not about Skybird and his attitude towards the US, but the recession in Germany, the global recession, and how it has been caused by the financial meltdown. Sentiments being formed by the going of things may be explained, but must not play the major role here.

[TDK1044]

Only three good things ever came out of Germany....Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Heidi Klum. I'd love to have all three of them! :)

[Hitman]

The US inducted a rubbish bank system that had to blow up somewhen, right....but the rest of the world bought it happily :roll:

Better have had your own ideas and personality earlier, Europe, whining now about that is not fair -as much as I agree that the crisis comes from the US, it's the EU own responsability to have accepted to trade with banks who used those methods instead of creating limits and controls to prevent dirt from hitting the fan.

The US ultra-liberal banks and economists can't be blamed for being what they are, at least they never negated it. It's us EU idiots who should have been smarter not to buy that :down:

[wireman]

Second!

[TDK1044]

The real issue is that there is no harmony in Europe at all. Calling what they have the 'European Union' is a joke. They all hate each other. Go to the UK or France and ask them how much they care about a German recession. You'll get a two word answer, and one of the words will be "off".

The Europeans have spent hundreds of years fighting each other, and because of that history they have no monetary strength as one entity. So, one by one they bought into the US system, and when things were good nobody complained. Now that there has been an inevitable but unprecidented monetary event, they want to blame the US for their lot in life.

It's pathetic. At least the Brits see it for what it is and are not looking to absolve themselves of some share of the blame, unlike the oh so predictable Germans.

[Skybird]

Only three good things ever came out of Germany....Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Heidi Klum. I'd love to have all three of them! :)
You need to educate yourself a bit about the massive influence of Germany arts, philosophy, science and engineering on forming the current global culture, then. It is one of the most influential heritages in the western culture, you know. there has been so incredibly much more than just the Nazis.

The US inducted a rubbish bank system that had to blow up somewhen, right....but the rest of the world bought it happily :roll:

Better have had your own ideas and personality earlier, Europe, whining now about that is not fair -as much as I agree that the crisis comes from the US, it's the EU own responsability to have accepted to trade with banks who used those methods instead of creating limits and controls to prevent dirt from hitting the fan.

The US ultra-liberal banks and economists can't be blamed for being what they are, at least they never negated it. It's us EU idiots who should have been smarter not to buy that
Yes and no. It were American banks inventing and selling the idea of the latest hyper-compley and super-risky financial products that many fell for - but then again, this was only possible since the massive anglosaxon dominance prevented any rules that would have prevented such shortsighted products being put onto the market. Then, many of these products are so complex now that even bankers themselves do not understand them anymore. And finally, the risk that arose especially from trading with American mortage-related financial products and transactions from second to third to fourth hands again was propagated and initiated by the american market. they wnated an anarchic wild wild west, and washington made sure that htey get it. Every fisherman knows that you catch fish in troubled water - transparency in the business was not wanted at all. act is that since roughly three years especially Germany has warned against the serious risks and the market distortions caused by the american black hole, and always was just laughed away: it just were us stupid, risk-hating germans, what do us stupid Germans know about trading, the profit comes were the adventure is challenged, and this bull**** about superliberal market without any regulations at all. I would not care if only americans alone would need to pay for the mess. But unfortunately, the greater part of the global bill is payed poutside america. Thanks, but no thanks at all for that.

Why is nobody laughing anymore?

The international finance system is so much interlinked that one nation alone cannot start to embark on an extraroute all by itself, if the others do not follow that. It's not much different than with climate issues - one nation acting alone, means nothing. the major problem has been that America denied the need to make regulation obligatory where voluntary reasonable behavior and responsible, trustworthy action by bankers and banks was not showing up. But this is not to be allowed anymore, because such a system rewards those abusing these freedom to make their selfish profit at the cost of millions and millions, and ruining whole economies. After the bailout package had been accepted and all those appeals had been made that now trust and responsible acting should become the rule - the same players just started to make profit from abusing these aid packages! WTF, what else does it take to convince american policy-makers that voluntary codes of behavior will not work when man is confronted with the choice to fill his pockets with millions if he is willing to ruin the country by that? "Me first" is in our genes, and if you give freedom to the behavior of this genes, they will dominate - it is the most natural thing in the world, so to speak. And naturally you create egopists that way that act by the motto of "me first, and the biblic flood once I am gone." You need to set limits and implement rules which to violate will cause hurting sanctions, else nobody will follow them. Is anybody leaving his front door open when leaving home, because of freedom in his country, and security will regulate itself? No. you all close and lock your doors. your accept laws, and run a police. but when it comes to economy and banking, you leave all doors and windows open and send all police to holidays - you seriously assume that nobody will take the opportunity...? Come down to earth again, this is the real life.


The US inducted a rubbish bank system that had to blow up somewhen, right....but the rest of the world bought it happily :roll:

Better have had your own ideas and personality earlier, Europe, whining now about that is not fair -as much as I agree that the crisis comes from the US, it's the EU own responsability to have accepted to trade with banks who used those methods instead of creating limits and controls to prevent dirt from hitting the fan.

The US ultra-liberal banks and economists can't be blamed for being what they are, at least they never negated it. It's us EU idiots who should have been smarter not to buy that :down:
Ultraliberal banking like hedgefonts - does active damage by destroying healthy companies to liquidise them and taking the money as profit, leaving behind a company that once was healthy, now is dieying of it's debts. I can't blame them for what they are doing? you are wrong - I can, and I blame them for what they are doing indeed, and what they are. They are a lethal virus, and they need to be exterminated, like Ebola virusses would get exterminated, or cancer cells. The chief fondmanagers and CEO of such enterprises should be hung up the flagpoles at Wall Street, as a warning to all that there is no excuse to put private greed above the legitimate interest of the social community and responsibly dealing with the economy.


The real issue is that there is no harmony in Europe at all. Calling what they have the 'European Union' is a joke. They all hate each other. Go to the UK or France and ask them how much they care about a German recession. You'll get a two word answer, and one of the words will be "off".

The Europeans have spent hundreds of years fighting each other, and because of that history they have no monetary strength as one entity. So, one by one they bought into the US system, and when things were good nobody complained. Now that there has been an inevitable but unprecidented monetary event, they want to blame the US for their lot in life.

It's pathetic. At least the Brits see it for what it is and are not looking to absolve themselves of some share of the blame, unlike the oh so predictable Germans.
You have easy talking, for your nation never had to sit down with its many national components and finding out the hard way how to cooperate peacefully together - there were none likemin europe. You were immigrants from the beginning, and then conquerors. At least we learned to sit together any maybe yell to each other, but no longer hanging at each other'S throats - you had the easy way to just wipe out the Indians and take the land and leave it to that. The Euro despite the current turbulences has become of equal importance than the dollar, and in the long run, it is far more reasonable to assume that the dollar will lose its dominant position in global and oil trade. The inevatible event you mentioned, has taken place in america, and has been caused by the american internal financial market. you really want to make somebody believe that it has not been financial-economic America's fault that the crisis broke out, strangely in amercia, mounting into the world from america, and along the paths left by the american banking model in the world? the US are the epicentre of this earthquake, because you digged too deep!

Germany: 82 millions people, 1 Skybird. Fakt.
Wrong. German popuation is less than 80 million, latest cleanings of demographic statistics have shown, estimations are at around 78 million. And zero Skybird. Skybird is just an evil ghost haunting this forum. He is not real. :88) Nevertheless the very vast majority of businessmen and finance analysts, the government, the german finance ministre, the chancellor and the federal president - agree with this ghost. Steinbrücks and Köhler'S words on repeated occasions left nothing to wish in clearness about who has to be seen as the cause of this mess. That directness is unsual in diplomacy, and only illustrate how serious it all is.

America must accept responsibility for having caused this desaster by the many flaws in the design of its financil system, and its deeply ill and unhealthy status of state finances, and trade balance. More and more of the world economy gets infested and becomes ill from it. and America needs to accept that desperately needed safeties and regulation to protect against abuse of the system like it has become the rule, are needed so that it could take place any longer. being the responisble cause of it all, america has an obligation now. Just saying once again: no rules, no regulations, is totally and completely unacceptable and just makes mockery of any lip-confessions of learning lesson from what happened.

[TDK1044]

Only three good things ever came out of Germany....Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Heidi Klum. I'd love to have all three of them! :)
You need to educate yourself a bit about the massive influence of Germany arts, philosophy, science and engineering on forming the current global culture, then. It is one of the most influential heritages in the western culture, you know. there has been so incredibly much more than just the Nazis.


You live in a make believe world all of your own. German engineering is respected, but the German people are not. Nor are they liked or trusted. German arts, philosophy and influential heritage is a joke.

Your Country owes more to the world than it could ever repay. Your arrogance is not surprising. Your ancestors sat on their asses as an Austrian painter took over your so called culture filled Country and set about killing millions of people in his attempt at world domination.

And what did the great German people do as Hitler grew in strength? They sat on their asses and took the view that if he was successful then they'd see an improvement in their quality of life, and if he failed then they could say that he and the Nazis were not representative of the German people and that they therefore shouldn't be blamed.

Well I've got news for you...the world does blame you. Whine all you want about the current financial crisis. If the recession really hits hard in Germany then the world will see the rise of the Nazis once more and all will see that little has changed in Germany since 1945. US flags will be burnt in the streets of Berlin, and Jewish Americans will be blamed for the world financial crisis. That's German culture.

[Skybird]

With all that display of historic ignorance of yours, TDK, I just repeat what I told you before: you definitely need better education. German culture and history began a thousand years ago. Hitler came a hundred years ago. Is your skill in math better than you knowledge on any history and culture that is not American? I hope so. no matter, your country massively benefitted from the rich heritatge of german culture, like it did benefit from the ideas and thinking of another country you guys love to spit on, but without which your nation probably even would not exist, at leats not in it's idealistic self-perception as it is today: France.

Get some books and learn to look beyond the end of your nose.

BTW, I just can't resist since I think I owe your snobbish arrogant tone a bit, two studies done over this year found Germany to be amongst the top three in global popularity and worldwide reputation scores. In one, it even ranked as number one. America was - well, its enough to say that it was not even close to be in the top group. Glorious and being envied you are mainly in one view only: your own. But since you think the whole world is owing you and admires you, I at least can understand why it is that hard for you to see that.

[Bewolf]

Only three good things ever came out of Germany....Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Heidi Klum. I'd love to have all three of them! :) You need to educate yourself a bit about the massive influence of Germany arts, philosophy, science and engineering on forming the current global culture, then. It is one of the most influential heritages in the western culture, you know. there has been so incredibly much more than just the Nazis.

You live in a make believe world all of your own. German engineering is respected, but the German people are not. Nor are they liked or trusted. German arts, philosophy and influential heritage is a joke.

Your Country owes more to the world than it could ever repay. Your arrogance is not surprising. Your ancestors sat on their asses as an Austrian painter took over your so called culture filled Country and set about killing millions of people in his attempt at world domination.

And what did the great German people do as Hitler grew in strength? They sat on their asses and took the view that if he was successful then they'd see an improvement in their quality of life, and if he failed then they could say that he and the Nazis were not representative of the German people and that they therefore shouldn't be blamed.

Well I've got news for you...the world does blame you. Whine all you want about the current financial crisis. If the recession really hits hard in Germany then the world will see the rise of the Nazis once more and all will see that little has changed in Germany since 1945. US flags will be burnt in the streets of Berlin, and Jewish Americans will be blamed for the world financial crisis. That's German culture.


That was one fine example of "realsatire" right there :rotfl:

[Morts]

Only three good things ever came out of Germany....Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Heidi Klum. I'd love to have all three of them! :)
You need to educate yourself a bit about the massive influence of Germany arts, philosophy, science and engineering on forming the current global culture, then. It is one of the most influential heritages in the western culture, you know. there has been so incredibly much more than just the Nazis.


You live in a make believe world all of your own. German engineering is respected, but the German people are not. Nor are they liked or trusted. German arts, philosophy and influential heritage is a joke.

Your Country owes more to the world than it could ever repay. Your arrogance is not surprising. Your ancestors sat on their asses as an Austrian painter took over your so called culture filled Country and set about killing millions of people in his attempt at world domination.

And what did the great German people do as Hitler grew in strength? They sat on their asses and took the view that if he was successful then they'd see an improvement in their quality of life, and if he failed then they could say that he and the Nazis were not representative of the German people and that they therefore shouldn't be blamed.

Well I've got news for you...the world does blame you. Whine all you want about the current financial crisis. If the recession really hits hard in Germany then the world will see the rise of the Nazis once more and all will see that little has changed in Germany since 1945. US flags will be burnt in the streets of Berlin, and Jewish Americans will be blamed for the world financial crisis. That's German culture.
wow...just wow

ps, thanks for the good laugh:rotfl:

[AntEater]

Lol, I missed all the fun.

[August]

The problem with defending ones country from the criticism of a hate filled foreigner like Skybird is avoiding succumbing to the temptation of returning his fire in kind. It's not easy to do and i'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

You read "America was wrong about this" and "America is at fault for that" and there is such a strong temptation to answer it by pointing out equally hateful things about their country. IE Hit me with your fist and i'm tempted to hit you back with my fist. Talk about my sister and i want to talk about yours. Say my country is filled with jerks and i want to say yours is filled with dinkwads.

So what is a person to do in this situation? You can't attack the person because of forum rules and attacking his nationality just makes you as big of an ass as he is. So what's left? To constantly have to defend your homeland over and over again until judgment day comes and the trumpets sound? Ignore him and let his poison affect the opinions of 3rd parties and maybe even your own fellow countrymen? Defense is no way to win a war, and a forum war is no exception..

Personally I think that anyone who engages in this national criticism, at least those who make a habit of it, should loose their forum privilege not to be attacked personally. They are, after all, the one who started the flame war and protecting them just gives them cover from which to continue spouting their message of hate.

[Bewolf]

The problem with defending ones country from the criticism of a hate filled foreigner like Skybird is avoiding succumbing to the temptation of returning his fire in kind. It's not easy to do and i'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

You read "America was wrong about this" and "America is at fault for that" and there is such a strong temptation to answer it by pointing out equally hateful things about their country. IE Hit me with your fist and i'm tempted to hit you back with my fist. Talk about my sister and i want to talk about yours. Say my country is filled with jerks and i want to say yours is filled with dinkwads.

So what is a person to do in this situation? You can't attack the person because of forum rules and attacking his nationality just makes you as big of an ass as he is. So what's left? To constantly have to defend your homeland over and over again until judgment day comes and the trumpets sound? Ignore him and let his poison affect the opinions of 3rd parties and maybe even your own fellow countrymen? Defense is no way to win a war, and a forum war is no exception..

Personally I think that anyone who engages in this national criticism, at least those who make a habit of it, should loose their forum privilege not to be attacked personally. They are, after all, the one who started the flame war and protecting them just gives them cover from which to continue spouting their message of hate.

Please, August, do not assume. Hate and enragement are a very different kind of breed. The hate card is a convinient way out if you want to find justification for yourself for such reactions. They all just hate you, eh? All just jealous. Nothing else.

[Thomen]

The problem with defending ones country from the criticism of a hate filled foreigner like Skybird is avoiding succumbing to the temptation of returning his fire in kind. It's not easy to do and i'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

You read "America was wrong about this" and "America is at fault for that" and there is such a strong temptation to answer it by pointing out equally hateful things about their country. IE Hit me with your fist and i'm tempted to hit you back with my fist. Talk about my sister and i want to talk about yours. Say my country is filled with jerks and i want to say yours is filled with dinkwads.

So what is a person to do in this situation? You can't attack the person because of forum rules and attacking his nationality just makes you as big of an ass as he is. So what's left? To constantly have to defend your homeland over and over again until judgment day comes and the trumpets sound? Ignore him and let his poison affect the opinions of 3rd parties and maybe even your own fellow countrymen? Defense is no way to win a war, and a forum war is no exception..

Personally I think that anyone who engages in this national criticism, at least those who make a habit of it, should loose their forum privilege not to be attacked personally. They are, after all, the one who started the flame war and protecting them just gives them cover from which to continue spouting their message of hate.
You are correct, mostly. :up:
However, it is rather sad that in a world as ours is these days, people on both sides built their opinion about countries and their citizens on forum posts and a very biased media.
Reading through some of SB posts does gives me the impression that my fellow countrymen are ignorant and quick to blame everybody else; what they not really are, at least not the ones that I call friends and family.
Reading some of TDKs rants can certainly give the impression that Americans are arrogant and un(der)educated when it comes to history and world knowledge.
Again, that's not what Americans really are, atleast not the ones I know here.

There are loonies on both sides on the pond, unfortunately those are the vocal minority whose whole purpose seems to be to spoil the impression one gets of the overall population.

Personally, I like being a German living in the US. People are usually very friendly and respectful.

As far as this thread goes, it might be better just to close it.

[AntEater]

I didn't follow the thread that closely, but August and the other right wing US guys are not exactly throwing powder puffs in a debate either.
If you can't take it, don't start it
:rotfl:

[August]

I didn't follow the thread that closely, but August and the other right wing US guys are not exactly throwing powder puffs in a debate either.
If you can't take it, don't start it
:rotfl:

Don't call me a "right wing guy" I'm not right wing or left wing. My views are a mix of both. Part of the problem here is when people start trying to tell me what side i should belong to or what that side has the potential for based on past events in their country.

For example I am pro abortion rights (considered a left wing view here) but advocate personal responsibility (right wing). I favor a conservative view of gun rights (right wing) but oppose business deregulation (left wing). I support a strong military and police force (right wing) but support drug legalization (left wing).

So which side am I on? I'll tell you; My countries side. End of story. There's an old saying in my country: "My country right or wrong, but my country".

[TDK1044]

Reading through this thread, it does seem that my comments are somewhat excessive and painted with too broad a brush.

I apologise for the venom expressed in my post, Skybird. You and I are destined to disagree on many issues, but I went too far in this thread.

[wireman]

(Golf Clap)

Good for you TDK1044.

[TDK1044]

Yeah. I'm not usually that big an ass, wireman. I went way too far here. Apologies to the German members.

[Skybird]

TDK,

good to see you getting calmer again. If only you believe me that in no way I want to personally attack you or your countrymen on a personal, vis-a-vis basis, not here or in any other post, a lot would be won. We can disagree on practical issues and political assessemnts - we must not personally hate each other, or personally fight with each other. If you read through my posts, you will see that I indeed criticise your nation on certain given specifics of policies and political acts, yes (like i also critice my own country on other specifics, or the EU) - but you will also see that I do not start to aim personally at board members as long as i do not get personally attacked first: but I reserve the right of giving the change in the currency they eventually have chosen first (and often I do not even that, but simply ignore much personal mud thrown at me). I have been friends over years with Americans, and personally, not via internet, you know, since my time in Berlin. do you think they were just masochists who enjoyed to get bashed by me over nothing, and getting personally offended? ;) :lol: Hell, we even often agreed in many critical views on both America, and Germany.


Personally I think that anyone who engages in this national criticism, at least those who make a habit of it, should loose their forum privilege not to be attacked personally. They are, after all, the one who started the flame war and protecting them just gives them cover from which to continue spouting their message of hate.

If that is not hypocrisy at its best. It is not your disagreements with me or your differing opinion that made me put you onto my ignore list. It were your personal attacks, your constant mistaking of argument with personal attack, and your inability or unwillingness to see the difference between criticising a set of clear-defined details and aspects of the policy and political effects caused by your country - and yourself, your ego, your private person. Because for you, like for quite some others, the US is a golden monument, untouchable resting on its podest, and what you consider it to be by ideals and dreams and utopias once designed a long time ago, you mistake with the reality it is causing for real. You are used to be seen as the big liberators, the power of democracy, of good, of light and what is positive in life, on earth, and all universe. If somebody reminds you that there is quite some things not functioning as advertised, and this monument of a (young!) nation violating parts of its own heritage and self-refering claims, and by that also damages others, then you blow the horn and call for the big witch-hunt.

but with growing criticism of the US you will have to live, for your position in the world is no longer seen as one-sided as in the past, and your influence to prevent critical views and make people believe what you want them to believe, is waning. and that is good.

The irony here is that people like you, by claiming to be personally offended if needing to face any realistic assessement of the US that is looking beyond the end of your nose, you are preventing yourself as well to see what damage you already have suffered, and what losses of the ideals that the US has been meant to be by its founders, already took place. You do not see the present nation the US is, which has drastically changed from the early ideals, or even the time around WWII, and short after, but you live in your private imagination of what the US was meant to be, long time ago, in the past. While fantasising, you are too busy to realise that you are also doing damage to others as well, whom you claim to do well from your fantasy perspective.

No wonder then that you are enraged by me so much! I am a disturbance to your private dream show, for which you have invested part of your life's energy. shaking somebody from his dreams and tell him he is not sleeping in a bed at the centre of the earth never is being welcomed.

Take this comment like you want. Feel free to see it as a personal attack, if you must that. But this is how I see this post: as an explanation, simply that, not more, not less.

I would like to ask you to simply ignore me and stop adressing me personally, like I asked Subman as well. It's just a favour I do to you that by ignoring me you could answer me on equal terms. and if argument over a political opinion would not be mistaken with personal attacks so often by you and some other guys, then this forum would be a slightly calmer place. I ignore personal attacks I am not aware of, that is what the ignore button is for, and I do not see any reason why I should constantly prove people how much mud I can take without feeling hurt, but where such comments get quoted by others and I must note them, I feel hit nevertheless, and then I react to it - and who would criticise me for that. I am not personally attacking neither members of this board first, nor do I attack individual, private american persons on a personal level first, I criticise certain - not all - policies, and political effects caused by your country, and i do it by arguments, not by some stupid generalisation like "all Americans are Abu Ghraib fans and are military fascists by nature" - which would be the equivalent to this stupid endless repetion about the Third Reich and the citizens of the Federal Republic of today. Where you get hot over others criticising your nation's policies, and do not see that "you" are not your "nation", you have a problem, so then go and see a therapist, because you also pose a problem to others. But your mistaking of "nation" and "ego" shall not be an argument why critical opinions you do not like should be censored, or supressed or prevented from being spoken out, just to caress your inflationary nation/ego.

america is not beyond criticism, and it is not untouchable - and it also is neither perfect, nor divine. There is a lot of damage that it has caused by its ways of goings and proposing it's models and routines, enforcing them by using its enormous influence and dominant position, and for this damage the world is pointing finger at you and want you to accept responsibility for, and agree to desperately needed repairs and major corrections. If that hurts some people's ego I'm sorry (or not), but that's how it is. America has started to cost the world too much and promises to become even more expensive if being allowed to just continue as if nothing needs to be changed - that simple it is.

[August]

Reading through some of SB posts does gives me the impression that my fellow countrymen are ignorant and quick to blame everybody else; what they not really are, at least not the ones that I call friends and family.
Reading some of TDKs rants can certainly give the impression that Americans are arrogant and un(der)educated when it comes to history and world knowledge.
Again, that's not what Americans really are, atleast not the ones I know here.

That's why the opinion of folks like yourself is so important on forums such as this one. You have a foot in each world and don't have to rely on Speigel articles to form your opinions.

Y'know when Skybird posts something about Germany or about how Germans are thinking, I usually send a copy of it to my cousins who live over there to get their take on it. A great majority of the time they write back telling me to please not take his rantings as in any way representative of the German national mood on a particular subject.

Unfortunately though most people don't have those kind of foreign family connections, and it then becomes a question of how much time and effort a person is willing put toward finding out the truth. Given that this forum is for casual recreation that effort is often minimal or non-existant. However the impressions gotten from it can remain long after the browser is closed.

Making it worse there are those, on both sides of the pond,who don't care one bit about uncovering the truth. They use their forum posts like a propaganda tool. Their words are literary weapons, designed to cause discontent and doubt in the minds of their targets. Guess which group I think Skybird belongs to...

So keep posting Thomen. You are in a unique position to educate Germans about Americans and Americans about Germans and maybe lessen the impact of the Skybirds of the world. :up:

[TDK1044]

From an American perspective, Skybird, it feels like Europe is always looking to blame the US for their lot in life. Sure, American foreign policy and monetary strategy has left much to be desired at times, but if the EU functioned the way it was meant to, and the Euro was a real competitor to the Dollar, then much would be different.

But Europe is so fragmented. Many of the countries have little time for each other, and the British don't think they're European at all. There's little cohesion, and as a result of that the US has a greater influence there than it should have.

I think things will change though and I think China will be the wild card over the next 20 years. We'll see.

Ironically, I'm about to fly to the UK for a few days and will be returning home on Sunday. I'll check out this thread then.

If I ever get to Germany, I'll buy you several beers, Skybird. It's the least I could do in apology for my needless rant. :D

[Skybird]

From an American perspective, Skybird, it feels like Europe is always looking to blame the US for their lot in life.
Indeed, it has often be like that indeed, especially with germany, and even more so during Bush, and Reagan as well. You see, Germans are obessed with America, and it is both fascination and irritation at the same time, for we perceive america to be doing things very different than we do - and often we think it should be impossible to do it the american way, for we often think our way works better. This is as basic a characterisation of Germans' attitude towards america as it can be. But at the basis, despite all criticism, you often find fascination. the other reason why america attracts so much close attention, of course is that it is so omnipresent in the world that it is affecting practically everybody else - and then it is a legitimate interest that the affected party has interest into the one by whom it gets affected. With Obama, the tone will change, but he probably will demand even more, and germans definitely are wrong when assuming that Americans have voted a world president - Obama will be the US president before anything else. I predicted since month that many people here are set for a cold-shower-wakeup event, especially the Green and the SPF, but also mahjor parts of the CDU. At the same time we will find it more difficult to reject him, like it was easy for obvious reasons to reject Bush. I am waiting to see how berlin will handle it: a weak chancellor, a damn paralysed great coalition, and plenty of stagnation, and positioning for the next election in roughly one year. As Afghanistan shows, and Steinmeier demonstrates in his sleep-envoking comments, German foreign policy excels in weaseling around, making loud words here, and doing different (and half-hearted only) there. I would like to spank them all.

However, I tried to make clear the defined context of my criticism regarding America's role on the finance crisis, and I see myself in conformity with practically every economic-political observer (at least outside the US), and I took it for granted that the events and the timetable of how the fincial crisis unfolded, is generally known. Assuming that to be consensus and widespread knowledge, maybe was a mistake of mine, helping to heat up the atmosphere, leaving my statements hanging in open air and giving the appearance of being a lose gun firing wild. My structural presentation also is often not that good in this foreign language, thinking in German or translating into English really affects the way I arrange my thoughts, and in English it is more confused, due to the constant translating I need to do. That is no excuse for I am responsible for how and what I write, but it may help as a bit of an explanation.

I think things will change though and I think China will be the wild card over the next 20 years. We'll see.
Excluding the impact of surprising, unpredictable events, that probably will be like that. Haha, that Nassim Taleb book really made me sensitive to the importance of expecting the unexpected events. :lol:

If I ever get to Germany, I'll buy you several beers, Skybird. It's the least I could do in apology for my needless rant. :D
Pah, already forgotten, I snapped back and had my bite of you, so we can leave the issue behind. :D My topic selection certainly sometimes could encourage emotional debate. But there have been more serious "events" in past years.

Bon Voyage when going to Britain. Some landscape there I would like to see myself, maybe.

[Bewolf]

From an American perspective, Skybird, it feels like Europe is always looking to blame the US for their lot in life. Sure, American foreign policy and monetary strategy has left much to be desired at times, but if the EU functioned the way it was meant to, and the Euro was a real competitor to the Dollar, then much would be different.

But Europe is so fragmented. Many of the countries have little time for each other, and the British don't think they're European at all. There's little cohesion, and as a result of that the US has a greater influence there than it should have.

I think things will change though and I think China will be the wild card over the next 20 years. We'll see.

Ironically, I'm about to fly to the UK for a few days and will be returning home on Sunday. I'll check out this thread then.

If I ever get to Germany, I'll buy you several beers, Skybird. It's the least I could do in apology for my needless rant. :D
Apart from what Skybird already and fittingly said, I have to add a few tidbits of my own to the discussion.

First of all, yes, europeans, and germans prolly all the same, are arrogant b*stards when it comes to the US for sure. In many ways this is unfair and ignorant, something that has to be openly admitted, given the history of the US and it's culturual background. Many over here see the US as just another, though very powerful, nation state like all the others, with only subtle differences, while in reality it's a completly different mindset prelevant there based on many different cultures who never reallly blended in with each other. The land is so huge that a democrat or republican on the east coast is a completly different breed of person then his ideologic relative on the west coast. It's hard to reember that once the air gets hot.

Then there is the obvious problem of the US beeing a country involved all over the world, quite massivly at times, basicly effecting everybodies life on this planet in one way or another. Power brings a lot of responsebility, a responsebility I got the impression many americans see as a burdern. This, I assume, is in direct relation to the phenomenon most americans never leave their country and got an education that is very US centric. I once had a talk with an american exchange student, back in school days. Though a cool guy, I asked to see his history book. World War 2 was put on two pages only, and it basicly said "we got in, we rocked, we saved the world". Mix in all the hollywood movies and the views of a lot of US forum members and over time you develop the picture of a nation that is so fixated on beeing the "good" guys they stop listening to reason out of principle. I mean, seriously, america talks about freedom and democracy....but it appears they consider non american lives not noteworthy. The easyness with that the phrase "collatoral damage" is thrown around, it's ease of acceptance of that to win a war, Guantanamo, Abu Ghuraib does not appear to fit to a civilized nation that sees itself and actually is supposed to be the beacon of the western world. Now I know I am leaning myself out of the window given german history. But we are living in the 21 century now, not the 1940ies. And much of Germany's acceptance of freedom and democracy stems from the example the US gave. This reputation, not the military or economic weight, is what enabled the US to reach it's position in the world, where the fascination stems from. And that reputation is all but shattered by now, not just by the US government, but also by common ppl discussing on boards like these. And it always appeared to be republicans giving this "barbarian" impression, that is why Bush was so loathed, Obama beeing such a hope. In a nutshell, the impression given by republicans: weapons fanatics, death penalty, CIA kidnappings, prison camps, torture, wars of agression, arrogance, environment hostility. I am sure there is more to it in it's substance, but from an outsiders view, without knowledge about the internal workings of the US parties and their domestic messages, these are the dominant images. They "appear" to be the complete opposite of what the US stood for.

Please note I am not talking facts here, but perception.

It's not only that, though.
You'd not believe the questions I had to reply to at times, the wonderous look on many a US folks faces once they got told France and Germany share a border, or that Germany is not located in the middle east. The numbers of times I got asked how Hitler is doing and why we hate jews is mind boggling, considering that germany is a completly different country now compared to the WW2. All this left the impression that americans get involved in a world they know nothing about..and worse, don't want to know about. I had americans telling me the "greens", a german party, is communist because they read that in one of their newspapers. That europe is "socialist" while in fact it is social democratic based on capitalism, a pretty big difference. Add this to the constant bragging and superiourity complexes ones has to face, especially when it comes to american ideology, then it compares with communist fanatics who are equally obsessed with their world view.

You see, I tried to argue in a very calm, very open manner, sharing ideas and views in the begining of my forum life. I've also traveled to and through the US (and Canada) quite extensivly. I've been everywhere between New York and Seatle. Wheerever I went, I met friendly, helpful ppl. My work environment also puts me in contact with US folks all the time annd on a personal level, I get along with them really well. I actually like america very much, despite the impressions some got here. When it comes to games about the cold war or the pacific theatre of operations in WW2, it's not the japanese or russian side I chose. I said it before and I will repeat it, I'd not invest so much energy in typing and ranting if it were not a country I didn't bother about in a good way. And I dare say, that is the case with most europeans here. You have friends, good and steady ones. It is not forgotten what you did with the Berlin airlift and during the cold war. It's just..you guys are on such a collective ego trip, you never listen. it is not that europeans are the masters of knowledge themselves at all, far from it. But you do not even take it into consideration. How would you deal with a person you consider a friend, but that acts towards you like he doesnt bother at all? http://smiliestation.de/smileys/Traurig/7.gif

I apologize for coming into this forum with guns blazing and without making an adequate introduction and impression first. World events kinda prevented that I assume.
I will stress again that all that is written here is not set in stone or the last word on wisdom. It's just an overview, where many of the problems stem from and that facts and perception may differ quite a bit, but that it is perception ultimately deciding judgement, fair or unfair. If you are in such discussions, just give the folks argueing a little more credit and don't go the "hate" line. Europeans bash themselves over politics as well, at times as harsh or even worse then here. Britain and Germany especially have a history of that, nevertheless we get along pretty well.

[August]

Since we're clearing the air here I must say that i'm getting kind of tired of Europeans accusing Americans of not knowing their geography. So what if one of our younger citizens doesn't know that France borders Germany?

How many Euros can tell which states border, say Wisconsin, without looking at a map? How about California?

How many times have I heard our Congressmen referred as "Members of Parliament" or our administrators referred to as "ministers"?

Most of the Americans you meet over there are young soldiers and students on holiday. That's like getting financial advice from a welfare recipient, probably not the best source.

[Bewolf]

Since we're clearing the air here I must say that i'm getting kind of tired of Europeans accusing Americans of not knowing their geography. So what if one of our younger citizens doesn't know that France borders Germany?

How many Euros can tell which states border, say Wisconsin, without looking at a map? How about California?

How many times have I heard our Congressmen referred as "Members of Parliament" or our administrators referred to as "ministers"?

Most of the Americans you meet over there are young soldiers and students on holiday. That's like getting financial advice from a welfare recipient, probably not the best source.
Wisconsin, there comes Michigan, Ohio, Illinois and what was it...Iowa? No brainer, I travelled the area quite a bit, was invited to a wedding in Minneapolis, landed in Detroit, got a car and made a great lakes roundtrip beforehand. Pretty flat landscape, though the immidiate lake areas were beautiful, Chicago an exception but downtown, which was impressive, though kinda "cold".

California, Mexico to the south, Oregon to the north, I forgot what is in the east, some desert state for sure.
You need to trust me I did not look that up on the internet.

But then again nobody asks you to know all the german states either. It's about whole countries, no states, after all. And as we are at it, I could name you most asian, north and south american, african and european countries, their capitals, major rivers, mountain ranges and forrests. We had to learn all of that in school, in case of the US even the states. And though I forgot a lot of it by now, I still can pretty much place countries correctly once I hear their name.

What is problematic in this regard, in my opion, and given the example of Germany and France, that both these countries were playing major roles in history, directly related to the US, both play a major role in current alliances. Both consider themselves allies of the US. Heck, the largest part of the US immigrants are german, more then the british and irish combined. Both France and Germany consider themselves friends of the US. Is it really asked to much for an allie's population to know their friends location? After all I got most of this not from US folks that came over here, but americans I met within the US.

And if the US folks don't know that much about the world, how do they judge foreign affairs, their development, history and relationships to other countries? And how does this effect their vote for a president and his foreign policy agenda? You see, the problem lies in the influence and power the US, it's impact on the rest of the world. US diplomacy is best described as a broad sword, it's not exactly subtle. For you guys US foreign policy may run as "and then there is the rest of the world somewhere", but I assure you this rest does not take it that lightly when another country is invaded or it's citizens kidnapped in the name of fighting terrorism. In case of Germany the once highly regarded Nuremberg trials are more and more seen as nothing more then winners justice even by the intellectual elite in light of the US recent actions, compared to it's former place as a high standart for international attempts to fight wars of agression themselves.

That can't be a good development, but it's an understandable reaction. And I fear similiar developments are occuring all over the planet right now, detoriating the US position even more. A weaker US also means a weaker alliance, in return meaing a weaker west in general and less of a chance to tackle future opponents like China and maybe India.

[August]

Wisconsin, there comes Michigan, Ohio, Illinois and what was it...Iowa? No brainer, I travelled the area quite a bit, was invited to a wedding in Minneapolis, landed in Detroit, got a car and made a great lakes roundtrip beforehand. Pretty flat landscape, though the immidiate lake areas were beautiful, Chicago an exception but downtown, which was impressive, though kinda "cold".

Good job. Do you think you could do that if you hadn't been there?

[Bewolf]

Wisconsin, there comes Michigan, Ohio, Illinois and what was it...Iowa? No brainer, I travelled the area quite a bit, was invited to a wedding in Minneapolis, landed in Detroit, got a car and made a great lakes roundtrip beforehand. Pretty flat landscape, though the immidiate lake areas were beautiful, Chicago an exception but downtown, which was impressive, though kinda "cold".
Good job. Do you think you could do that if you hadn't been there?

Not all of them, but I am confident I could name at least 2 even without having been there. As I said, we learned it in school and I am curious like that anyways. As long these states are not involved in international politics, though, I still do not think that comparisons between US states and whole countries are fair.

[Skybird]

What is problematic in this regard, in my opion, and given the example of Germany and France, that both these countries were playing major roles in history,

I find it even more irritating if people are in favour to wage a war against a country like Iraq or Afghanistan and making a big hush of it - but cannot even locate it on a map.

And on mistaking labels for government members (ministers versus secretaries, in the end the job is the same) or for house members (congresses versus parliaments), I just would point out that from our side of the pond we could as well complain about constantly mistaking the Third Reich for the Federal Republic, and Nazis back then with Germans today (and I am not talking of TDK's comments which he has taken back in a friendly move). This has been fired so very often.

[August]

As long these states are not involved in international politics, though, I still do not think that comparisons between US states and whole countries are fair.

I don't see why they wouldn't be. In terms of relativity to the life of the average American, as well as their territorial size and number, US states are just as important over here as European nations are over there, especially with the EU well on its way to regulating them to a similar status.

[Hitman]

Yes and no. It were American banks inventing and selling the idea of the latest hyper-compley and super-risky financial products that many fell for - but then again, this was only possible since the massive anglosaxon dominance prevented any rules that would have prevented such shortsighted products being put onto the market. Then, many of these products are so complex now that even bankers themselves do not understand them anymore. And finally, the risk that arose especially from trading with American mortage-related financial products and transactions from second to third to fourth hands again was propagated and initiated by the american market. they wnated an anarchic wild wild west, and washington made sure that htey get it. Every fisherman knows that you catch fish in troubled water - transparency in the business was not wanted at all. act is that since roughly three years especially Germany has warned against the serious risks and the market distortions caused by the american black hole, and always was just laughed away: it just were us stupid, risk-hating germans, what do us stupid Germans know about trading, the profit comes were the adventure is challenged, and this bull**** about superliberal market without any regulations at all. I would not care if only americans alone would need to pay for the mess. But unfortunately, the greater part of the global bill is payed poutside america. Thanks, but no thanks at all for that.

Why is nobody laughing anymore?

The international finance system is so much interlinked that one nation alone cannot start to embark on an extraroute all by itself, if the others do not follow that. It's not much different than with climate issues - one nation acting alone, means nothing. the major problem has been that America denied the need to make regulation obligatory where voluntary reasonable behavior and responsible, trustworthy action by bankers and banks was not showing up. But this is not to be allowed anymore, because such a system rewards those abusing these freedom to make their selfish profit at the cost of millions and millions, and ruining whole economies. After the bailout package had been accepted and all those appeals had been made that now trust and responsible acting should become the rule - the same players just started to make profit from abusing these aid packages! WTF, what else does it take to convince american policy-makers that voluntary codes of behavior will not work when man is confronted with the choice to fill his pockets with millions if he is willing to ruin the country by that? "Me first" is in our genes, and if you give freedom to the behavior of this genes, they will dominate - it is the most natural thing in the world, so to speak. And naturally you create egopists that way that act by the motto of "me first, and the biblic flood once I am gone." You need to set limits and implement rules which to violate will cause hurting sanctions, else nobody will follow them. Is anybody leaving his front door open when leaving home, because of freedom in his country, and security will regulate itself? No. you all close and lock your doors. your accept laws, and run a police. but when it comes to economy and banking, you leave all doors and windows open and send all police to holidays - you seriously assume that nobody will take the opportunity...? Come down to earth again, this is the real life.

Errrr read again my post, what you are saying is more or less what I meant when I said that we Europeans should have had more personality and not allow those anglosaxon lobbies to make enough pressure to introduce such brutal banking system here. After all, the EU was theoretically an attempt to be able to stand such pressures and risks :hmm:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman
The US inducted a rubbish bank system that had to blow up somewhen, right....but the rest of the world bought it happily :roll:

Better have had your own ideas and personality earlier, Europe, whining now about that is not fair -as much as I agree that the crisis comes from the US, it's the EU own responsability to have accepted to trade with banks who used those methods instead of creating limits and controls to prevent dirt from hitting the fan.

The US ultra-liberal banks and economists can't be blamed for being what they are, at least they never negated it. It's us EU idiots who should have been smarter not to buy that :down:

Ultraliberal banking like hedgefonts - does active damage by destroying healthy companies to liquidise them and taking the money as profit, leaving behind a company that once was healthy, now is dieying of it's debts. I can't blame them for what they are doing? you are wrong - I can, and I blame them for what they are doing indeed, and what they are. They are a lethal virus, and they need to be exterminated, like Ebola virusses would get exterminated, or cancer cells. The chief fondmanagers and CEO of such enterprises should be hung up the flagpoles at Wall Street, as a warning to all that there is no excuse to put private greed above the legitimate interest of the social community and responsibly dealing with the economy.


No, read again, I didn't say they can't be blamed for what they ARE not for what they've done. If you allow a wolf to enter in a sheep's herd, the wolf will simply act according to his nature. Of course his actions are to blame from your point of view, but ultimately it is you who should have known and prevented the wolf from getting in. I do not like that banking system, it's aggressive, short-termed and will not work in Europe due to our different way of doing and seeing things. But we knew it, and we should have done better. Hanging them in Wall Street? Fair enough and I agree with that BUT Wall Street is in New York and we have no jurisdiction there. Let the Americans do what they want with their banking system and if they like to have such vampires it's OK with me. The only thing we could and should have done is put enough barrires to prevent them jumping the Atlantic, and we didn't. And we were warned: The US ultraliberal banking system (And its backup in the London city) is a direct heritage from the times of Reagan and Thatcher, it was OK in the 80s and served its purpose, but we are no longer there. Our government bodies and banking directives here in EU should have recognized that and at least tried to prevent such disaster as we have today, that's what they are paid for after all.

[Bewolf]

As long these states are not involved in international politics, though, I still do not think that comparisons between US states and whole countries are fair.
I don't see why they wouldn't be. In terms of relativity to the life of the average American, as well as their territorial size and number, US states are just as important over here as European nations are over there, especially with the EU well on its way to regulating them to a similar status.

So what impact had Wisconsin in international politics? How much did Wisconsin influence the war in Iraq? France and Germany both did in their own ways, seperate from each other. The EU is by far not as dominant as many folks outside Europe often appear to think. France does not deal with Wisconsin, but with the US as a whole. Same goes for Germany. This is not true in the US dealing with the EU. So yes, on an international level, there are grave differences. Just because the US states are as large as whole european countries, that does not mean they have the same impact on the international stage.

[August]

So what impact had Wisconsin in international politics?
I thought we were discussing the relevance to Americans. We have a big country. To some of us the nearest national border is 1500 miles away so international politics are not going to have the same degree of importance to our people.

How much did Wisconsin influence the war in Iraq?
Wisconsin had it's largest deployment of National Guard since WW2 to Iraq. I'd say their influence on the war was at least as great as Germany's.

France does not deal with Wisconsin, but with the US as a whole. Same goes for Germany.
Actually you may not know this but our state politicians go on trade junkets to make deals and partnerships with foreign countries fairly often.

Just because the US states are as large as whole european countries, that does not mean they have the same impact on the international stage.
I'm not saying they do, but their impact on the average American is a different story.

[Bewolf]

So what impact had Wisconsin in international politics?
I thought we were discussing the relevance to Americans. We have a big country. To some of us the nearest national border is 1500 miles away so international politics are not going to have the same degree of importance to our people.

How much did Wisconsin influence the war in Iraq?
Wisconsin had it's largest deployment of National Guard since WW2 to Iraq. I'd say their influence on the war was at least as great as Germany's.

France does not deal with Wisconsin, but with the US as a whole. Same goes for Germany.
Actually you may not know this but our state politicians go on trade junkets to make deals and partnerships with foreign countries fairly often.

Just because the US states are as large as whole european countries, that does not mean they have the same impact on the international stage.
I'm not saying they do, but their impact on the average American is a different story.
I see what you mean. But that sounds more like an excuse rather then an explaination to my statement this comparison is not fair. You basicly give your states the same importance as other countries. Now what does this make the Union as a whole? I seriously dislike the undertone of this.

[August]

I see what you mean. But that sounds more like an excuse rather then an explaination to my statement this comparison is not fair. You basicly give your states the same importance as other countries. Now what does this make the Union as a whole? I seriously dislike the undertone of this.

Well i'm not saying this to irritate you, just to look at it from our view three thousand miles away across a very big ocean.

[Bewolf]

I see what you mean. But that sounds more like an excuse rather then an explaination to my statement this comparison is not fair. You basicly give your states the same importance as other countries. Now what does this make the Union as a whole? I seriously dislike the undertone of this.
Well i'm not saying this to irritate you, just to look at it from our view three thousand miles away across a very big ocean.

Kay, I'll just take your words the way they are then. But if true, what do you think does this tell about your perception of the world in regards to the discussion at hand?

[August]

Kay, I'll just take your words the way they are then. But if true, what do you think does this tell about your perception of the world in regards to the discussion at hand?

Me personally or some undefined group of my fellow countrymen and the entire world or just Europe's corner of it?

[Bewolf]

Kay, I'll just take your words the way they are then. But if true, what do you think does this tell about your perception of the world in regards to the discussion at hand?
Me personally or some undefined group of my fellow countrymen and the entire world or just Europe's corner of it?

All of it, if that is no problem.

[August]

Kay, I'll just take your words the way they are then. But if true, what do you think does this tell about your perception of the world in regards to the discussion at hand?
Me personally or some undefined group of my fellow countrymen and the entire world or just Europe's corner of it?
All of it, if that is no problem.

It tells me that we are big enough and diverse enough to be an international community on our own.

[Bewolf]

Kay, I'll just take your words the way they are then. But if true, what do you think does this tell about your perception of the world in regards to the discussion at hand?
Me personally or some undefined group of my fellow countrymen and the entire world or just Europe's corner of it?
All of it, if that is no problem.
It tells me that we are big enough and diverse enough to be an international community on our own.

I see where you are coming from. Technically speaking, though, one nation can't be an international community itself, that would be a contradiction in itself.

It still does not answer the question though, how do you judge the lack of political and international education and how to solve this problem. Because going on like this clearly defies any common sense, don't you agree? Or are you advocating the lack of knowledge and thus a basis for good judgement by the people when it comes to international affairs?

I am still not sure if you are just explaining or justifying the situation.

Btw, when I talk about education, I am not talking about school or university. I talk about self education, reading newspapers, magazines, even international and foreign ones to get a better picture of the world. Everybody with a computer is able to do that nowadays.

[August]

I see where you are coming from. Technically speaking, though, one nation can't be an international community itself, that would be a contradiction in itself.

On the face of it yes but when you think about it given our size and ethnic diversity we really are very much like an international community. Same thing with Russia and especially the old Soviet Union. So while technically you are correct the practical application is the opposite.

It still does not answer the question though, how do you judge the lack of political and international education and how to solve this problem. Because going on like this clearly defies any common sense, don't you agree? Or are you advocating the lack of knowledge and thus a basis for good judgement by the people when it comes to international affairs?

The reason i asked whether you were talking about me specifically or some group of my countrymen is because there is no one single answer here. We are way too big for that. There are those who know as much as i do about international affairs, those that know a lot more and those who know a lot less.

This is nothing to be ashamed of. After all I can get into my car and drive almost 5000 kilometers and still be in my country. If you do the same how many countries will you pass through? The average person just doesn't have the same basic need to interact with foreign countries that you do.

[Bewolf]

On the face of it yes but when you think about it given our size and ethnic diversity we really are very much like an international community. Same thing with Russia and especially the old Soviet Union. So while technically you are correct the practical application is the opposite.

There we have to disagree. While yes, the Soviet Union was compromised of many different ethnic and cultural groups, it was always seen as one country. Nobody ever referred to the Ukraine, White Russia, Georgia or any of the other countless entities the USSR was made of. It was seen as one political entity, same with the US nowadays.


The reason i asked whether you were talking about me specifically or some group of my countrymen is because there is no one single answer here. We are way too big for that. There are those who know as much as i do about international affairs, those that know a lot more and those who know a lot less.

This is nothing to be ashamed of. After all I can get into my car and drive almost 5000 kilometers and still be in my country. If you do the same how many countries will you pass through? The average person just doesn't have the same basic need to interact with foreign countries that you do.

Reading this, I think we are not taking about the same subject. As soon as a nation is involved in international politics, the need for education and information is there. That is an absolute given for any basic ability for judgement by the ppl of that nation and the very same for any nation, no matter how large or small.
What you refer to is a lack of opportunity for common folks due to the geographic environment, which is undoubtly true especially for the US and their lack of neighbours. Nevertheless there are countless possibilities to gain knowledge even without leaving the country.

[Onkel Neal]

The average person (American) just doesn't have the same basic need to interact with foreign countries that you do.

Yeah, I think that's a basic American trait, we don't feel any shame in not knowing where Latvia or Turkmenia are or who the PM of Germany is. We have plenty of business here to take care of, we're pretty much self-contained.

[Skybird]

:doh: Oh Neal...

(did I hear somebody saying "Yes, Major Carter?")

Being the

- (by far) greatest consumer of global resources (roughly 25% of global resources for just 5% of the global population makes for an impressive per-head-calculation second to none in the world),

- and running in over 160 countries around 900 military bases, installations and passive real estates eventually currently not being actively used by the military (short of one third of these in Germany alone),

- and enforcing the independence and recognition of nations like kosovo just so that a military base like Bondsteel with 400 km2 can be maintained and/or established unaffected by not-too-sympathetic nations like Serbia for example,

hardly qualifies for a description of being "self-contained", Neal. ;) Maybe you like to be left alone inside the US and just live your lives (what by the level of desinterest for the "rest" of the world certainly can be judged to be true), but that for acchieveing this the politcal acting of your nation probably is the most penetrative and expansive of all nations there are - you nevertheless accept (and do not like to be remineded of).

Being self-contained is something different. and independence and autarky is a necessary precodntions for that ö- else you cannot afford to be "self-contained".

[Onkel Neal]

The govt handles our external stuff, I'm referring to the majority of the people in the US.

[MothBalls]

Adding my $0.02 to what Neal said,

There's three distinctly different entities in the US.

American Business
American Government
American People

Try to remember that when America has a negative affect on your country, it's not coming from the bottom group. American people don't want to cause problems or hurt anyone. We have very little control over the other two groups who do the damage.

[Skybird]

The govt handles our external stuff, I'm referring to the majority of the people in the US.

I did not know that the government and the external stuff has so little to do with the people in the US. :)

[MothBalls]

The govt handles our external stuff, I'm referring to the majority of the people in the US.

I did not know that the government and the external stuff has so little to do with the people in the US. :)

Now you do.

[Skybird]

Adding my $0.02 to what Neal said,

There's three distinctly different entities in the US.

American Business
American Government
American People

Try to remember that when America has a negative affect on your country, it's not coming from the bottom group. American people don't want to cause problems or hurt anyone. We have very little control over the other two groups who do the damage.

Ah, so you are excused and should be allowed to just carry on like that?

It is your government that you elect, and it is your business men from your people that influences your countries policies. Usually you americans are the first to point out that the government is for and of the people and that you are all one (as often being said in thios forum). but it seems there are occasions when this statement opportunistically is denied.

[Skybird]

The govt handles our external stuff, I'm referring to the majority of the people in the US.

I did not know that the government and the external stuff has so little to do with the people in the US. :)

Now you do.

One problem remains - i don't believe a single word of it. ;)

[MothBalls]

Being the

- (by far) greatest consumer of global resources (roughly 25% of global resources for just 5% of the global population makes for an impressive per-head-calculation second to none in the world)

Hmm, wonder what we use some of those resources for? Ah, you answered it already.

- and running in over 160 countries around 900 military bases, installations and passive real estates eventually currently not being actively used by the military (short of one third of these in Germany alone),


My memory seems to be failing me at the moment. Can you please remind me why we had so many bases in Germany in the first place?

Do one thing for me. Tell me what Europe would look like today if America never had a base there, anywhere in Europe, ever. (Here's a hint, look east. If you see Palin's front porch, you went to far, back up a little)

[August]

There we have to disagree. While yes, the Soviet Union was compromised of many different ethnic and cultural groups, it was always seen as one country. Nobody ever referred to the Ukraine, White Russia, Georgia or any of the other countless entities the USSR was made of. It was seen as one political entity, same with the US nowadays.

Actually that kind of illustrates my point Bewolf. Yes, to outsiders including Americans, the USSR was indeed seen as a single entity. However as soon as it collapsed many of the various republics and ethnic groups, long considered to be one, couldn't break away from each other fast enough, so how accurate was that single entity concept?

Reading this, I think we are not taking about the same subject. As soon as a nation is involved in international politics, the need for education and information is there. That is an absolute given for any basic ability for judgement by the ppl of that nation and the very same for any nation, no matter how large or small.
What you refer to is a lack of opportunity for common folks due to the geographic environment, which is undoubtly true especially for the US and their lack of neighbours. Nevertheless there are countless possibilities to gain knowledge even without leaving the country.

There is plenty of education/information available on other cultures and nationalities here in the states as well. Our libraries and access to information are as extensive as anyone's. We just tend to look at things differently than Europeans do because of our differences in size and our history.

For example, a Texan is just as far away from me physically as a Finn is to an Italian but there are far less differences between us. Perhaps that tends to make us less aware of the boundaries that put the "international" in "international politics".

On the other hand the ability of any single political group to exert control over a country like mine is far greater than in your comparatively homogeneous societies. The effort required for a group like say the nazis or the communists to subjugate my country would be comparable to them having to come to power in all of Europe all at once. I'm not saying it couldn't happen here of course, anything is theoretically possible, but it would be far, far more difficult to achieve.

So when you talk about the importance of understanding international politics, what it is about them that is important may be different from your vantage point than it is to mine.

After all if we thought as Europeans do we'd be 50 individual nations all speaking different languages traditions and cultures (and probably constantly at war with each other). On the other hand if you Europeans thought as we Americans do your people would tend to be much less aware of international politics than might be prudent for your continued national survival.

[Onkel Neal]

Adding my $0.02 to what Neal said,

There's three distinctly different entities in the US.

American Business
American Government
American People

Try to remember that when America has a negative affect on your country, it's not coming from the bottom group. American people don't want to cause problems or hurt anyone. We have very little control over the other two groups who do the damage.

Ah, so you are excused and should be allowed to just carry on like that?

It is your government that you elect, and it is your business men from your people that influences your countries policies. Usually you americans are the first to point out that the government is for and of the people and that you are all one (as often being said in thios forum). but it seems there are occasions when this statement opportunistically is denied.

We're not concerned with being excused. To make my meaning clearer, I'm not suggesting the people and govt are not linked, what I'm trying to get across to you is the people do not spend a lot of time and energy on foreign policy details. The people here are involved with their govt, and the govt (in a general sense) deals with foreign govts and trade. There are a lot of exceptions, of course; business people, for one. But the average guy from Texas/Kansas/Utah/Michigan probably doesn't obssess over the kind of world stage stuff the average European does. I know some people love to criticize us for that, ok, that's fine, who cares. Like it or not, we're not going to be shamed into adopting your way of thinking.

All preceding comments are how I perceive it, from the view here.

[MothBalls]

While yes, the Soviet Union was compromised of many different ethnic and cultural groups, it was always seen as one country. Nobody ever referred to the Ukraine, White Russia, Georgia or any of the other countless entities the USSR was made of. It was seen as one political entity, same with the US nowadays.

I understand this point. The world view of America is our federal government and our foreign policies. Amongst the American people, there is much cultural diversity. I have been lucky in that I've traveled to many places in the US and lived in different areas.

I've also been fortunate enough to have traveled the world and met people from many countries. I never made any enemies and still have friends I keep in touch with and visit. Many of them have visited me here as well.

Texas isn't a state, it's an attitude. :) I lived in Houston for 15 years. Even though it's a huge state, and huge city, there's micro-cultures there. It's hard to understand unless you've spent some time there.

California isn't a state, it's a lifestyle. I lived in Southern California longer than anywhere else. Again, same thing. The state is so large there are different lifestyles and cultural differences there as well.

America really is the melting pot where people from all over the world continue to influence and shape our society and culture. It's still a young country, still in Beta, and it is constantly changing and developing. Hopefully for the better. There's been some bumps and bruises, few mistakes here and there, but the same could be said for any country.

What most people don't see, or realize, is that the American people have the best of intentions. We don't want to harm anyone, we don't want to make enemies, we don't want to start wars. When our government starts making bad decisions, we do speak up, with our votes. The current administration, and party, hasn't being doing what the people wanted. This showed up in the election results. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next.

It may not be the best system in the world, but it works for me.

[August]

We're not concerned with being excused. To make my meaning clearer, I'm not suggesting the people and govt are not linked, what I'm trying to get across to you is the people do not spend a lot of time and energy on foreign policy details. The people here are involved with their govt, and the govt (in a general sense) deals with foreign govts and trade. There are a lot of exceptions, of course; business people, for one. But the average guy from Texas/Kansas/Utah/Michigan probably doesn't obssess over the kind of world stage stuff the average European does. I know some people love to criticize us for that, ok, that's fine, who cares. Like it or not, we're not going to be shamed into adopting your way of thinking.

Damn well said Neal.

[Bewolf]

While yes, the Soviet Union was compromised of many different ethnic and cultural groups, it was always seen as one country. Nobody ever referred to the Ukraine, White Russia, Georgia or any of the other countless entities the USSR was made of. It was seen as one political entity, same with the US nowadays.
I understand this point. The world view of America is our federal government and our foreign policies. Amongst the American people, there is much cultural diversity. I have been lucky in that I've traveled to many places in the US and lived in different areas.

I've also been fortunate enough to have traveled the world and met people from many countries. I never made any enemies and still have friends I keep in touch with and visit. Many of them have visited me here as well.

Texas isn't a state, it's an attitude. :) I lived in Houston for 15 years. Even though it's a huge state, and huge city, there's micro-cultures there. It's hard to understand unless you've spent some time there.

California isn't a state, it's a lifestyle. I lived in Southern California longer than anywhere else. Again, same thing. The state is so large there are different lifestyles and cultural differences there as well.

America really is the melting pot where people from all over the world continue to influence and shape our society and culture. It's still a young country, still in Beta, and it is constantly changing and developing. Hopefully for the better. There's been some bumps and bruises, few mistakes here and there, but the same could be said for any country.

What most people don't see, or realize, is that the American people have the best of intentions. We don't want to harm anyone, we don't want to make enemies, we don't want to start wars. When our government starts making bad decisions, we do speak up, with our votes. The current administration, and party, hasn't being doing what the people wanted. This showed up in the election results. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next.

It may not be the best system in the world, but it works for me.

I do not doubt a single word of what you said, Mothballs, including the last paragraph. That was pretty much my own impression whenever I've been to the States. As I said before, the ppl I met were friendly, helpful and all in all a great bunch of people. And when it comes to american foreign policy, I do recognnize the willing of the US to spread democracy and freedom. The neoconservative agenda to change the autocratic middle east into democracies is highly respectful seen all by itself.
The problem lies in the "means" and the believe that everything is solveable by wars, combined with the assumption ppl will flock to democracy by principle, all over the world. As it was proven by now, that is not the case. You can't help a people that does not want to be helped.
There is a german proverb, stating "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". America always reminds me of a doc that tries to cure a leg bruise by chopping of the arm, simply because he does not know enough about the patient. With the best intentions, but the patient may have problems recognizing this.

[PeriscopeDepth]

We're just pissed that people just as uneducated as we are, can actually invade some countries every now and then and be the weatherman of the world :D
The western world more or less nominated the US for this role during the Cold War, AFAIC.

PD

[Bewolf]

We're just pissed that people just as uneducated as we are, can actually invade some countries every now and then and be the weatherman of the world :D The western world more or less nominated the US for this role during the Cold War, AFAIC.

PD
That is not exactly true. Check out the Truman Doctrin. That does not take anything away from the american contribution, though.
And coming to the education question. No, americans are not "less" educated, they just have other priorities in education.

[PeriscopeDepth]

The problem lies in the "means" and the believe that everything is solveable by wars, combined with the assumption ppl will flock to democracy by principle, all over the world. As it was proven by now, that is not the case.
While OT, I don't believe the people inside government that were really pushing for said war really believed it would solve things so much as push an agenda. They just had a sucker for a commander in chief.

PD

[PeriscopeDepth]

We're just pissed that people just as uneducated as we are, can actually invade some countries every now and then and be the weatherman of the world :D The western world more or less nominated the US for this role during the Cold War, AFAIC.

PD
That is not exactly true. Check out the Truman Doctrin.
Elaboration requested. :)

PD

[Bewolf]

We're just pissed that people just as uneducated as we are, can actually invade some countries every now and then and be the weatherman of the world :D The western world more or less nominated the US for this role during the Cold War, AFAIC.

PD
That is not exactly true. Check out the Truman Doctrin. Elaboration requested. :)

PD
Ask, and you shall recieve :cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine

"...The Truman Doctrine is a proclamation by Harry S. Truman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman), President of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States) on March 12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_12), 1947 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947). It stated that the U.S. would support the Kingdom of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) economically and militarily to prevent their falling under Soviet control. Truman called upon the U.S. to "support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures,"[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine#cite_note-0) which generalized his hopes for Greece and Turkey into a doctrine applicable throughout the world. The Soviet Union was clearly at the heart of Truman's thoughts, but the nation was never directly mentioned in his speech. As Edler states, Truman was attempting to solve Eastern Europe's instability while making sure the spread of communism would not affect nations like Greece and Turkey."


"The Truman Doctrine was the first in a series of containment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment) moves by the United States, followed by economic restoration of Western Europe through the Marshall Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan) and military containment by the creation of NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) in 1949. In Truman's words, it became "the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures." Using a framing rhetoric that continues to have resonance today, Truman reasoned that because these "totalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism) regimes" coerced "free peoples," they represented a threat to international peace and the national security of the United States."


"The Truman Doctrine can also be compared to the rationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_justification) for America's first involvements in the Vietnam War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War). Starting shortly after the outbreak of the Korean War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War), Truman attempted to aid France's bid to hold onto its Vietnamese colonies. The United States supplied French forces with equipment and military advisors in order to combat Ho Chi Minh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh) and his Viet Minh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Minh) movement."


As you can see, the US got itself a mission. This mission worked out for Europe, and we are thankful for that. But in no way was it bestowed upon the US. Remnants of this doctrin, the involvement in other countries for the bringing liberrty and democracy, are quite alife to this very day.

[PeriscopeDepth]

As you can see, the US got itself a mission. This mission worked out for Europe, and we are thankful for that. But in no way was it bestowed upon the US. Remnants of this doctrin, the involvement in other countries for the bringing liberrty and democracy, are quite alife to this very day.
Yes, but because of that mission Europe felt it didn't REALLY need to provide for its defense because of American assurances. The US on the other hand bought itself the most capable military the world has seen, until recently with the intent of defending Europe from Soviet armies.

I guess I'm just kicking myself really for a massive investment in a defense establishment that is several times more massive than any other and has yet to do anything besides save Saudi Arabia.

Heading OT, I know.

PD

[Bewolf]

As you can see, the US got itself a mission. This mission worked out for Europe, and we are thankful for that. But in no way was it bestowed upon the US. Remnants of this doctrin, the involvement in other countries for the bringing liberrty and democracy, are quite alife to this very day. Yes, but because of that mission Europe felt it didn't REALLY need to provide for its defense because of American assurances. The US on the other hand bought itself the most capable military the world has seen, until recently with the intent of defending Europe from Soviet armies.

I guess I'm just kicking myself really for a massive investment in a defense establishment that is several times more massive than any other and has yet to do anything besides save Saudi Arabia.

Heading OT, I know.

PD
That Europe didn't deem it nessecary to provide it's own defenses is floating around quite a bit, but that's wrong and more a cliché born out of defense budget cuts in the post cold war era then the cold war itself.

Taking the Bundeswehr as an example:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr

"During the Cold War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War) the Bundeswehr was the backbone of NATO's conventional defense in Central Europe. It had a strength of 495,000 military and 170,000 civilian personnel. The Army consisted of three corps with 12 divisions, most of them heavily armed with tanks and APCs. The Luftwaffe owned significant numbers of tactical combat aircraft and took part in NATO's integrated air defence (NATINAD). The Navy was tasked and equipped to defend the Baltic Approaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea), to provide escort reinforcement and resupply shipping in the North Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea) and to contain the Soviet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) Baltic Fleet."


http://www.ip-global.org/archiv/2005/fall2005/half-a-century-of-the-bundeswehr.html

"There was also a support force of reservists. These were organized into three commands that in the event of a general mobilization could be increased by 12 additional fighting brigades, of which two were fully operational in peacetime and assigned to the army, with a further four semi operational. In total the army was made up of 422 battalions. After reunification, with the integration of the (East) German Democratic Republic’s forces, the army for a short period increased to 490 battalions, before starting a period of swift contraction. In terms of weapons (not counting equipment that was never taken over from the East German army) there were 5,119 tanks, 2,100 armed infantry vehicles, 432 armored anti-aircraft vehicles, and 143 armored anti-missile vehicles, 1,062 pieces of artillery of 100-plus millimeters and 235 missile launchers with both middle- and long-distance capability (MARS and LARS)."


http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-4996.html

"Prior to unification, the armed forces of East and West Germany were considered among the shock troops of their respective alliances. The leaders of NATO and the Warsaw Pact-- the United States and the Soviet Union, respectively--each maintained powerful forces based in the two Germanys, the presumed battleground. In terms of tactics, force organization and structure, and equipment, superpower influence on each German military was pervasive. On the Soviet side, with more than 400,000 troops, the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany (GSFG) was far larger than the NVA itself and was the Warsaw Pact's most potent military force outside the Soviet Union. The United States was clearly the most important member of NATO, but only a small portion of its total military forces were stationed in West Germany or in Europe. Unification changed the Bundeswehr's situation dramatically and in the process added about 30 percent more territory and hundreds of kilometers of Baltic Sea coastline to the task of preserving the territorial integrity of the enlarged country."



Also, keep in mind, in case war broke out, Germany and Europe would have been completly devastated. Germany "was" the frontline. And despite the russian offer for unification for the price of becoming neutral, comparable to what happend to Austria, we stuck with the western Alliance. We rearmed after the expiriences in WW2 despite a populationwide attitude to never go to war again. The heck, we even provided great support to american bases in Germany later in the Iraq war despite beeing completly opposed to that war. We also activly participate in the Afghanistan war, as do several other european countries. Who is not thankful to whom is a question we could debate all week long, but it's by far not as one sided as the US folks make it out to be all the time.

P.S. About OT, I think we left the lands of recession a long time ago already =)

P.P.S. May I ask where these rumors Europe didn't/doesn't do anything for it's self defense come from? These rumors are spread to a degree one really wonders who's behind this nonsense.

[Bewolf]

Adding my $0.02 to what Neal said,

There's three distinctly different entities in the US.

American Business
American Government
American People

Try to remember that when America has a negative affect on your country, it's not coming from the bottom group. American people don't want to cause problems or hurt anyone. We have very little control over the other two groups who do the damage.
Ah, so you are excused and should be allowed to just carry on like that?

It is your government that you elect, and it is your business men from your people that influences your countries policies. Usually you americans are the first to point out that the government is for and of the people and that you are all one (as often being said in thios forum). but it seems there are occasions when this statement opportunistically is denied.
We're not concerned with being excused. To make my meaning clearer, I'm not suggesting the people and govt are not linked, what I'm trying to get across to you is the people do not spend a lot of time and energy on foreign policy details. The people here are involved with their govt, and the govt (in a general sense) deals with foreign govts and trade. There are a lot of exceptions, of course; business people, for one. But the average guy from Texas/Kansas/Utah/Michigan probably doesn't obssess over the kind of world stage stuff the average European does. I know some people love to criticize us for that, ok, that's fine, who cares. Like it or not, we're not going to be shamed into adopting your way of thinking.

All preceding comments are how I perceive it, from the view here.

Square and fair. Though I then have to adjust this perception by adding this has nothing to do with shame and beeing ashamed, but common sense and the lack thereof. Because by what you said, the average american does not care what his government does. Or considers his government's foreign policies as too unimportant to bother.

Fine with me, as long you guys don't complain and whine about ppl abroad getting angry at the US.

[August]

May I ask where these rumors Europe didn't/doesn't do anything for it's self defense come from? These rumors are spread to a degree one really wonders who's behind this nonsense.

I believe it was by comparing military expenditures with gross national product or something like that.

[AntEater]

Good point Bewolf has there.
In cold war times, it would've been Germans who took up the lion's share of manpower in NATO, at least on the ground.
The Bundeswehr of cold war days ranks fairly equal among the larger german armies.

Re the expenditure today, serveral points:

Most european nations do not maintain serveral very expensive weapons systems like strategic bombers, ICBMs and nuclear aircraft carriers. We don't have to spend the money for their upkeep, replacement and readiness.
Those european forces that have such weapons like France and Britain only have small numbers of them.
Also, European defense procurement may be a mess (A-400m, 'nuff said), but our defense contractors are amateurs in screwing over our governments compared to the US. If the US would get the same amount of "bang for buck" as Germany or Britain, it wouldn't have to spend so much money.
And except for britain, european nations did not privatize their military R&D and their procurement apparatus the way the US did.

To me, the "europe doesn't care for defense" statement is a myth.
It was true in the early 1990s, but then the Clinton administration did pretty much the same in the US.
And with regards to germany, OUR defense budged is slightly increasing while all those bigger spenders have to drastically slash their military in face of the economic crisis.
I wouldn't be too surprised if italian or spanish aircraft carriers go up for sale or something.