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Bewolf
11-18-08, 09:04 AM
An older, nevertheless interesting article, though a bit tough to read it all.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html

What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.
Diagnosis is a pleasure. It is a thrill to solve a mystery from scattered clues, and it is empowering to know what makes others tick. In the psychological community, where almost all of us are politically liberal, our diagnosis of conservatism gives us the additional pleasure of shared righteous anger. We can explain how Republicans exploit frames, phrases, and fears to trick Americans into supporting policies (such as the "war on terror" and repeal of the "death tax") that damage the national interest for partisan advantage.

But with pleasure comes seduction, and with righteous pleasure comes seduction wearing a halo. Our diagnosis explains away Republican successes while convincing us and our fellow liberals that we hold the moral high ground. Our diagnosis tells us that we have nothing to learn from other ideologies, and it blinds us to what I think is one of the main reasons that so many Americans voted Republican over the last 30 years: they honestly prefer the Republican vision of a moral order to the one offered by Democrats. To see what Democrats have been missing, it helps to take off the halo, step back for a moment, and think about what morality really is.

I began to study morality and culture at the University of Pennsylvania in 1987. A then-prevalent definition of the moral domain, from the Berkeley psychologist Elliot Turiel, said that morality refers to "prescriptive judgments of justice, rights, and welfare pertaining to how people ought to relate to each other." But if morality is about how we treat each other, then why did so many ancient texts devote so much space to rules about menstruation, who can eat what, and who can have sex with whom? There is no rational or health-related way to explain these laws. (Why are grasshoppers kosher but most locusts are not?) The emotion of disgust seemed to me like a more promising explanatory principle. The book of Leviticus makes a lot more sense when you think of ancient lawgivers first sorting everything into two categories: "disgusts me" (gay male sex, menstruation, pigs, swarming insects) and "disgusts me less" (gay female sex, urination, cows, grasshoppers ).

For my dissertation research, I made up stories about people who did things that were disgusting or disrespectful yet perfectly harmless. For example, what do you think about a woman who can't find any rags in her house so she cuts up an old American flag and uses the pieces to clean her toilet, in private? Or how about a family whose dog is killed by a car, so they dismember the body and cook it for dinner? I read these stories to 180 young adults and 180 eleven-year-old children, half from higher social classes and half from lower, in the USA and in Brazil. I found that most of the people I interviewed said that the actions in these stories were morally wrong, even when nobody was harmed. Only one group—college students at Penn—consistently exemplified Turiel's definition of morality and overrode their own feelings of disgust to say that harmless acts were not wrong. (A few even praised the efficiency of recycling the flag and the dog).

This research led me to two conclusions. First, when gut feelings are present, dispassionate reasoning is rare. In fact, many people struggled to fabricate harmful consequences that could justify their gut-based condemnation. I often had to correct people when they said things like "it's wrong because… um…eating dog meat would make you sick" or "it's wrong to use the flag because… um… the rags might clog the toilet." These obviously post-hoc rationalizations illustrate the philosopher David Hume's dictum that reason is "the slave of the passions, and can pretend to no other office than to serve and obey them." This is the first rule of moral psychology: feelings come first and tilt the mental playing field on which reasons and arguments compete. If people want to reach a conclusion, they can usually find a way to do so. The Democrats have historically failed to grasp this rule, choosing uninspiring and aloof candidates who thought that policy arguments were forms of persuasion.

The second conclusion was that the moral domain varies across cultures. Turiel's description of morality as being about justice, rights, and human welfare worked perfectly for the college students I interviewed at Penn, but it simply did not capture the moral concerns of the less elite groups—the working-class people in both countries who were more likely to justify their judgments with talk about respect, duty, and family roles. ("Your dog is family, and you just don't eat family.") From this study I concluded that the anthropologist Richard Shweder was probably right in a 1987 critique of Turiel in which he claimed that the moral domain (not just specific rules) varies by culture. Drawing on Shweder's ideas, I would say that the second rule of moral psychology is that morality is not just about how we treat each other (as most liberals think); it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way.
When Republicans say that Democrats "just don't get it," this is the "it" to which they refer. Conservative positions on gays, guns, god, and immigration must be understood as means to achieve one kind of morally ordered society. When Democrats try to explain away these positions using pop psychology they err, they alienate, and they earn the label "elitist." But how can Democrats learn to see—let alone respect—a moral order they regard as narrow-minded, racist, and dumb?

After graduate school I moved to the University of Chicago to work with Shweder, and while there I got a fellowship to do research in India. In September 1993 I traveled to Bhubaneswar, an ancient temple town 200 miles southwest of Calcutta. I brought with me two incompatible identities. On the one hand, I was a 29 year old liberal atheist who had spent his politically conscious life despising Republican presidents, and I was charged up by the culture wars that intensified in the 1990s. On the other hand, I wanted to be like those tolerant anthropologists I had read so much about.
My first few weeks in Bhubaneswar were therefore filled with feelings of shock and confusion. I dined with men whose wives silently served us and then retreated to the kitchen. My hosts gave me a servant of my own and told me to stop thanking him when he served me. I watched people bathe in and cook with visibly polluted water that was held to be sacred. In short, I was immersed in a sex-segregated, hierarchically stratified, devoutly religious society, and I was committed to understanding it on its own terms, not on mine.

It only took a few weeks for my shock to disappear, not because I was a natural anthropologist but because the normal human capacity for empathy kicked in. I liked these people who were hosting me, helping me, and teaching me. And once I liked them (remember that first principle of moral psychology) it was easy to take their perspective and to consider with an open mind the virtues they thought they were enacting. Rather than automatically rejecting the men as sexist oppressors and pitying the women, children, and servants as helpless victims, I was able to see a moral world in which families, not individuals, are the basic unit of society, and the members of each extended family (including its servants) are intensely interdependent. In this world, equality and personal autonomy were not sacred values. Honoring elders, gods, and guests, and fulfilling one's role-based duties, were more important. Looking at America from this vantage point, what I saw now seemed overly individualistic and self-focused. For example, when I boarded the plane to fly back to Chicago I heard a loud voice saying "Look, you tell him that this is the compartment over MY seat, and I have a RIGHT to use it."

Back in the United States the culture war was going strong, but I had lost my righteous passion. I could never have empathized with the Christian Right directly, but once I had stood outside of my home morality, once I had tried on the moral lenses of my Indian friends and interview subjects, I was able to think about conservative ideas with a newfound clinical detachment. They want more prayer and spanking in schools, and less sex education and access to abortion? I didn't think those steps would reduce AIDS and teen pregnancy, but I could see why the religious right wanted to "thicken up" the moral climate of schools and discourage the view that children should be as free as possible to act on their desires. Conservatives think that welfare programs and feminism increase rates of single motherhood and weaken the traditional social structures that compel men to support their own children? Hmm, that may be true, even if there are also many good effects of liberating women from dependence on men. I had escaped from my prior partisan mindset (reject first, ask rhetorical questions later), and began to think about liberal and conservative policies as manifestations of deeply conflicting but equally heartfelt visions of the good society.
On Turiel's definition of morality ("justice, rights, and welfare"), Christian and Hindu communities don't look good. They restrict people's rights (especially sexual rights), encourage hierarchy and conformity to gender roles, and make people spend extraordinary amounts of time in prayer and ritual practices that seem to have nothing to do with "real" morality. But isn't it unfair to impose on all cultures a definition of morality drawn from the European Enlightenment tradition? Might we do better with an approach that defines moral systems by what they do rather than by what they value?

Here's my alternative definition: morality is any system of interlocking values, practices, institutions, and psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate selfishness and make social life possible. It turns out that human societies have found several radically different approaches to suppressing selfishness, two of which are most relevant for understanding what Democrats don't understand about morality.

First, imagine society as a social contract invented for our mutual benefit. All individuals are equal, and all should be left as free as possible to move, develop talents, and form relationships as they please. The patron saint of a contractual society is John Stuart Mill, who wrote (in On Liberty) that "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others." Mill's vision appeals to many liberals and libertarians; a Millian society at its best would be a peaceful, open, and creative place where diverse individuals respect each other's rights and band together voluntarily (as in Obama's calls for "unity") to help those in need or to change the laws for the common good.
Psychologists have done extensive research on the moral mechanisms that are presupposed in a Millian society, and there are two that appear to be partly innate. First, people in all cultures are emotionally responsive to suffering and harm, particularly violent harm, and so nearly all cultures have norms or laws to protect individuals and to encourage care for the most vulnerable. Second, people in all cultures are emotionally responsive to issues of fairness and reciprocity, which often expand into notions of rights and justice. Philosophical efforts to justify liberal democracies and egalitarian social contracts invariably rely heavily on intuitions about fairness and reciprocity.

But now imagine society not as an agreement among individuals but as something that emerged organically over time as people found ways of living together, binding themselves to each other, suppressing each other's selfishness, and punishing the deviants and free-riders who eternally threaten to undermine cooperative groups. The basic social unit is not the individual, it is the hierarchically structured family, which serves as a model for other institutions. Individuals in such societies are born into strong and constraining relationships that profoundly limit their autonomy. The patron saint of this more binding moral system is the sociologist Emile Durkheim, who warned of the dangers of anomie (normlessness), and wrote, in 1897, that "Man cannot become attached to higher aims and submit to a rule if he sees nothing above him to which he belongs. To free himself from all social pressure is to abandon himself and demoralize him." A Durkheimian society at its best would be a stable network composed of many nested and overlapping groups that socialize, reshape, and care for individuals who, if left to their own devices, would pursue shallow, carnal, and selfish pleasures. A Durkheimian society would value self-control over self-expression, duty over rights, and loyalty to one's groups over concerns for outgroups.
A Durkheimian ethos can't be supported by the two moral foundations that hold up a Millian society (harm/care and fairness/reciprocity). My recent research shows that social conservatives do indeed rely upon those two foundations, but they also value virtues related to three additional psychological systems: ingroup/loyalty (involving mechanisms that evolved during the long human history of tribalism), authority/respect (involving ancient primate mechanisms for managing social rank, tempered by the obligation of superiors to protect and provide for subordinates), and purity/sanctity (a relatively new part of the moral mind, related to the evolution of disgust, that makes us see carnality as degrading and renunciation as noble). These three systems support moralities that bind people into intensely interdependent groups that work together to reach common goals. Such moralities make it easier for individuals to forget themselves and coalesce temporarily into hives, a process that is thrilling, as anyone who has ever "lost" him or herself in a choir, protest march, or religious ritual can attest.
In several large internet surveys, my collaborators Jesse Graham, Brian Nosek and I have found that people who call themselves strongly liberal endorse statements related to the harm/care and fairness/reciprocity foundations, and they largely reject statements related to ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity. People who call themselves strongly conservative, in contrast, endorse statements related to all five foundations more or less equally. (You can test yourself at www.YourMorals.org (http://www.yourmorals.org/).) We think of the moral mind as being like an audio equalizer, with five slider switches for different parts of the moral spectrum. Democrats generally use a much smaller part of the spectrum than do Republicans. The resulting music may sound beautiful to other Democrats, but it sounds thin and incomplete to many of the swing voters that left the party in the 1980s, and whom the Democrats must recapture if they want to produce a lasting political realignment.

In The Political Brain, Drew Westen points out that the Republicans have become the party of the sacred, appropriating not just the issues of God, faith, and religion, but also the sacred symbols of the nation such as the Flag and the military. The Democrats, in the process, have become the party of the profane—of secular life and material interests. Democrats often seem to think of voters as consumers; they rely on polls to choose a set of policy positions that will convince 51% of the electorate to buy. Most Democrats don't understand that politics is more like religion than it is like shopping.
Religion and political leadership are so intertwined across eras and cultures because they are about the same thing: performing the miracle of converting unrelated individuals into a group. Durkheim long ago said that God is really society projected up into the heavens, a collective delusion that enables collectives to exist, suppress selfishness, and endure. The three Durkheimian foundations (ingroup, authority, and purity) play a crucial role in most religions. When they are banished entirely from political life, what remains is a nation of individuals striving to maximize utility while respecting the rules. What remains is a cold but fair social contract, which can easily degenerate into a nation of shoppers.

The Democrats must find a way to close the sacredness gap that goes beyond occasional and strategic uses of the words "God" and "faith." But if Durkheim is right, then sacredness is really about society and its collective concerns. God is useful but not necessary. The Democrats could close much of the gap if they simply learned to see society not just as a collection of individuals—each with a panoply of rights--but as an entity in itself, an entity that needs some tending and caring. Our national motto is e pluribus unum ("from many, one"). Whenever Democrats support policies that weaken the integrity and identity of the collective (such as multiculturalism, bilingualism, and immigration), they show that they care more about pluribus than unum. They widen the sacredness gap.
A useful heuristic would be to think about each issue, and about the Party itself, from the perspective of the three Durkheimian foundations. Might the Democrats expand their moral range without betraying their principles? Might they even find ways to improve their policies by incorporating and publicly praising some conservative insights?

The ingroup/loyalty foundation supports virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice that can lead to dangerous nationalism, but in moderate doses a sense that "we are all one" is a recipe for high social capital and civic well-being. A recent study by Robert Putnam (titled E Pluribus Unum) found that ethnic diversity increases anomie and social isolation by decreasing people's sense of belonging to a shared community. Democrats should think carefully, therefore, about why they celebrate diversity. If the purpose of diversity programs is to fight racism and discrimination (worthy goals based on fairness concerns), then these goals might be better served by encouraging assimilation and a sense of shared identity.

The purity/sanctity foundation is used heavily by the Christian right to condemn hedonism and sexual "deviance," but it can also be harnessed for progressive causes. Sanctity does not have to come from God; the psychology of this system is about overcoming our lower, grasping, carnal selves in order to live in a way that is higher, nobler, and more spiritual. Many liberals criticize the crassness and ugliness that our unrestrained free-market society has created. There is a long tradition of liberal anti-materialism often linked to a reverence for nature. Environmental and animal welfare issues are easily promoted using the language of harm/care, but such appeals might be more effective when supplemented with hints of purity/sanctity.

The authority/respect foundation will be the hardest for Democrats to use. But even as liberal bumper stickers urge us to "question authority" and assert that "dissent is patriotic," Democrats can ask what needs this foundation serves, and then look for other ways to meet them. The authority foundation is all about maintaining social order, so any candidate seen to be "soft on crime" has disqualified himself, for many Americans, from being entrusted with the ultimate authority. Democrats would do well to read Durkheim and think about the quasi-religious importance of the criminal justice system. The miracle of turning individuals into groups can only be performed by groups that impose costs on cheaters and slackers. You can do this the authoritarian way (with strict rules and harsh penalties) or you can do it using the fairness/reciprocity foundation by stressing personal responsibility and the beneficence of the nation towards those who "work hard and play by the rules." But if you don't do it at all—if you seem to tolerate or enable cheaters and slackers -- then you are committing a kind of sacrilege.

If Democrats want to understand what makes people vote Republican, they must first understand the full spectrum of American moral concerns. They should then consider whether they can use more of that spectrum themselves. The Democrats would lose their souls if they ever abandoned their commitment to social justice, but social justice is about getting fair relationships among the parts of the nation. This often divisive struggle among the parts must be balanced by a clear and oft-repeated commitment to guarding the precious coherence of the whole. America lacks the long history, small size, ethnic homogeneity, and soccer mania that holds many other nations together, so our flag, our founding fathers, our military, and our common language take on a moral importance that many liberals find hard to fathom.

Unity is not the great need of the hour, it is the eternal struggle of our immigrant nation. The three Durkheimian foundations of ingroup, authority, and purity are powerful tools in that struggle. Until Democrats understand this point, they will be vulnerable to the seductive but false belief that Americans vote for Republicans primarily because they have been duped into doing so.

Comments?

August
11-18-08, 09:08 AM
Nothing more than a partisan Democrats attempt to vilify the opposition.

Bewolf
11-18-08, 09:10 AM
Nothing more than a partisan Democrats attempt to vilify the opposition.

Wow August, you must be the fastest reader I've ever met. Even I needed nearly 10 minutes to read it all. I am impressed.

August
11-18-08, 09:22 AM
Nothing more than a partisan Democrats attempt to vilify the opposition.
Wow August, you must be the fastest reader I've ever met. Even I needed nearly 10 minutes to read it all. I am impressed.

:D I got about half way through it and just couldn't take it any more.

Frame57
11-18-08, 12:07 PM
I agree with the article in some regards. The reason the (Extreme left) Democrats do not understand the American moral psyche is because they want to under mine it. They do not want to understand it.

tater
11-18-08, 01:11 PM
Some of us just don't like paying a gajillion dollars in taxes so it can be given to deadbeats, then getting vilified for paying way more than a fair share and forced to pay even more.

PeriscopeDepth
11-18-08, 01:40 PM
I can't believe anybody would place an article like this here and expect any sort of serious discussion.

But Frame, something you said struck me.
The reason the (Extreme left) Democrats do not understand the American moral psyche is because they want to under mine it. They do not want to understand it.
This certainly seems to be written by a guy that could be put in the extreme left category. I'm curious what you believe the American moral psyche to be? How did it come to be? Has it changed in the last 40 years or so?

PD

FIREWALL
11-18-08, 01:51 PM
I just don't like Essays.


K.I.S.S. :D :rotfl:

Sailor Steve
11-18-08, 07:56 PM
"Friends don't let friends vote...(place your evil party of choice here)!"

Bewolf
11-19-08, 04:35 AM
I can't believe anybody would place an article like this here and expect any sort of serious discussion.

But Frame, something you said struck me.
The reason the (Extreme left) Democrats do not understand the American moral psyche is because they want to under mine it. They do not want to understand it. This certainly seems to be written by a guy that could be put in the extreme left category. I'm curious what you believe the American moral psyche to be? How did it come to be? Has it changed in the last 40 years or so?

PD
Well, I do have a lot of american friends after travelling the country quite extensivly. My ex girfriend is american, too. And from a european perspective this article kinda finally explained a breed of ppl practically I never quite "got". Europe, or at least northern Europe, is more on the intellectual side in general and it always wondered me how common sense is tossed aside for ideological reasons so often in the US. This article made the impression of tackling this problem, but I am in no position to judge it's validity, so I put it here instead of taking it's content as given. So I'd be thankful for a little more input on the matter.

UnderseaLcpl
11-19-08, 02:59 PM
Thank you, Bewolf, for the article. I always enjoy perspective from other points of view, especially those that seem most alien to me. That being said, I have a number of contentions with the issues addressed here, and what follows is sure to be a long and boring reprisal, with perhaps a few sharp remarks. However, These are in no way intended as being inflammatory, it's just my particular fashion of debate, and of course I accept and similarly-toned criticism in turn.

The first thing to catch my eye was the abominable way in which the largely unsolved science of genetics is seemingly co-opted into a theory that it somehow determines political beliefs. While certain genetic characteristics may generate traits which make a person more responsive to certain political beliefs, this is a an appalling oversimplification of the mechanics at work between genetics, the brain, and political socialization.

Forgive me for going off on a tangent, but this is so typical of the liberals (and many conservatives, I might add) I have encountered, who seem to know the solution for everything regardless of historical precedence or any kind of respect for science. I'm always amazed at how liberals cling to science and hurl accusations at the religious right, when they themselves treat science in the same way as their counterparts often treat God, worshipping it and frequently misrepresenting its' very nature.

Furthermore, I look with disdain upon the liberal view of my "conservative" friends, no matter how far to the left I may think they are. This is exemplified in this paragraph;

Back in the United States the culture war was going strong, but I had lost my righteous passion. I could never have empathized with the Christian Right directly, but once I had stood outside of my home morality, once I had tried on the moral lenses of my Indian friends and interview subjects, I was able to think about conservative ideas with a newfound clinical detachment. They want more prayer and spanking in schools, and less sex education and access to abortion? I didn't think those steps would reduce AIDS and teen pregnancy, but I could see why the religious right wanted to "thicken up" the moral climate of schools and discourage the view that children should be as free as possible to act on their desires. Conservatives think that welfare programs and feminism increase rates of single motherhood and weaken the traditional social structures that compel men to support their own children?

Like the liberal interpretations of science and the natural world, this is an extremely twisted perspective on the views of others that reeks of egocentric nonsense. I don't even support most conservative social views and even I think the above is a thick glaze of know-it-allism surrounding a core of inexplicably arrogant wrongness.
As thought the Liberals, or anyone else for that matter, could posess such revolutionary views as to what flaws beset the human race.:roll:
Believe it or not, the conservatives do have a good point in their desire to promote traditional social values. Admittedly, these values have often embraced or inadvertently supported cultural conditions which are, indeed, backwards, but they also have a history of promoting social order. And even though I rarely adhere to or agree with conservative social positions, they do seem to understand the inestimable value of a properly functioning economy. Liberals tend to value a good economy as well, but they are always tampering with it, trying to fix it, trying to make it distribute wealth more evenly or function more effeciently (which means that they have no appreciation for the inherent effeciency of free economy).

Allow me, once more, to delve deeper into the issue and reveal the reasons for my opinions. It always baffles me when liberals, who are the supposed champions of nature and environmentalism, consistently propose measures which would tamper with the order of nature. Surely, they must be familiar with the concept of Darwinism, and as such, they must appreciate its' reflection in Social Darwinism, yes? Apparently not.

Take, for example, the global warming "crisis". A lot of evidence exists suggesting that climate change is natural. There is also strong evidence to support the notion the global magnetic polarity reversal may account for climate changes, as well as a myriad of other factors ranging from sunspot activity to Terra's orbital evolution.
http://hypsithermal.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/clue-sunspots-and-global-cooling/
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/07/11/globalwarming.overview/index.html

One of my fave's, and a there are a lot of supporting studies from the IPCC scientists who withdrew from the council
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEJ5pHVKjiI


This is not to say that they may not be right, although I doubt it, but to interfere with the natural procession of human civilization, or worse, to do so with tremendous economic consequences, to no avail, would be a drastic upset of the natural cycle. Even if humanity is causing global warming, what solution could they ever have that doesn't ruin humanity in the process? Our best hope would be to continue the march of progress towards technology and cheap energy and resources. After all it isn't as if you can stop either one of them, you can only hinder their progress, and possibly upset the cycle that has dominated life on Earth since its' inception.

I had planned on a lengthy explanation of how Turiel's definition of morality was fallacious, but I have to go to work soon, so I will leave you with this. Morality is order. Think about it for a bit, and maybe you will see what I mean, or I can answer questions about this belief later.

Quite frankly, the arrogance and condescending nature of this piece simply astounds me. I also find the consistent inability of liberals I have known to differentiate between the mechanics of a free-market society and those of a political system absolutely unbelieveable. Plutocracy is the inevitable fruit of such beliefs.

Since I am out of time, I will say that I am happy to answer any questions about my opinion. Perhaps it is me that is wrong, but I will relate one piece of wisdom that I have learned from my relatively few years on Earth;

"Beware those who would make a 'better' world"

DeepIron
11-19-08, 03:03 PM
What makes people vote Republican? Because the Libertarians and Independents have no "clout"... :roll:

UnderseaLcpl
11-19-08, 03:11 PM
What makes people vote Republican? Because the Libertarians and Independents have no "clout"... :roll:


We can change that! Fight the machine:D

PeriscopeDepth
11-19-08, 03:43 PM
Well, I do have a lot of american friends after travelling the country quite extensivly. My ex girfriend is american, too. And from a european perspective this article kinda finally explained a breed of ppl practically I never quite "got". Europe, or at least northern Europe, is more on the intellectual side in general and it always wondered me how common sense is tossed aside for ideological reasons so often in the US. This article made the impression of tackling this problem, but I am in no position to judge it's validity, so I put it here instead of taking it's content as given. So I'd be thankful for a little more input on the matter.
I'm not knocking the article itself Beowulf. I'm just saying the majority of people here will just read a few paragraphs of the article, think "Damn commie university professors!", and move on. I know exactly the kind of people you're referring to that you "don't get".

I'll write something a little bit more thoughtful/longer here soon. :)

PD

Sea Demon
11-19-08, 04:32 PM
What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies?
This statement in particular is hilariously fallacious. This is typical thinking from people who don't understand economic principles or the very concepts of liberty. Those who believe in economic freedom and the sanctity of private property rights usually vote Republican as they are the ones closest to upholding those ideals. Democrats tell you that they're doing you a favor by taking more money out of your wallet. Democrats are also the ones currently discussing seizing/confiscating personal pension accounts (private property) to roll into some blackhole government "annuity". Democrats are the party of the "entitlement junkies". The thing is, the working man who is self-sufficient, appreciates freedom and liberty, lives by a code of personal responsibility and holds others to the same standard of accountability, and is law abiding could never vote Democrat unless they really didn't understand the issues or are emotionally driven. The Democrat Party simply has no stake in these traditional American values. These are some of the values I believe that could be included with what Frame was talking about.

Letum
11-19-08, 04:58 PM
On a very similar note to the OP is this TED talk.
It is not necessarily my view on the subject, but it is an interesting take.

Video Link (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html)

PeriscopeDepth
11-20-08, 02:14 AM
First off, I have to agree that there is a demeaning undertone to the article in that the author assumes peoples decision to vote a certain way foolish. People have their reasons to vote (hopefully), and will vote for the candidate/party who has appealed to them most based on that candidate’s/party’s policies and image put forth.

But anyways, my long winded (for me at least) response…

I was a Poli Sci major a few years ago in school, and to get out of writing a research paper I ended up working on a California State Assembly campaign for a Republican candidate in a VERY Republican district. This led to a summer job of registering Republican voters for the Governator’s campaign throughout Southern California. Besides illustrating how well run and executed Republican campaigns generally are, I came in contact with A LOT of Republican voters. I registered voters in both in poorer (though certainly no Southeast Los Angeles or anything like that), very wealthy, and most everything in between neighborhoods.

These voters tended to end up in two categories, ideological Republicans and economic Republicans. Of course there was cross over, but there were Republican voters who would clearly benefit more from Dem economic policy. I even heard a few campaign managers refer to lower income Republicans as “ideological supporters”. These people clearly respond to the Republican SOCIAL message, though. “Traditional values” are a huge concern to Republican voters who are primarily ideological in nature, something that has been exploited by both parties in Southern strategies (Clinton, Carter are examples of part of the Dem Southern Strategy). The Republicans just staked a lot more on it than the Dems. And let me be clear, there’s nothing wrong with supporting a candidate whose values are perceived to be in line with yours. And it worked quite well for the Republicans for a long while, when a large enough segment of America identified with the message. A huge chunk of this segment was the aging, tending towards conservative, baby boomer generation. Combined with a number of conservative rural Americans, the Republicans had a very reliable base that turned out to vote very consistently.

We may be in the beginning of a shift in American party politics because that Republican base is becoming outnumbered by the Democratic base. And that base is actually turning out to vote in higher numbers than the Republicans base for the first time in a long time. I don’t think the Republicans are going to be able to continue to do what they’ve done for the past 40+ years (in terms of campaign strategy) and continue to be as powerful a force as they have been.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?ref=politics

PD

Bewolf
11-20-08, 04:32 AM
First off, I have to agree that there is a demeaning undertone to the article in that the author assumes peoples decision to vote a certain way foolish. People have their reasons to vote (hopefully), and will vote for the candidate/party who has appealed to them most based on that candidate’s/party’s policies and image put forth.

But anyways, my long winded (for me at least) response…

I was a Poli Sci major a few years ago in school, and to get out of writing a research paper I ended up working on a California State Assembly campaign for a Republican candidate in a VERY Republican district. This led to a summer job of registering Republican voters for the Governator’s campaign throughout Southern California. Besides illustrating how well run and executed Republican campaigns generally are, I came in contact with A LOT of Republican voters. I registered voters in both in poorer (though certainly no Southeast Los Angeles or anything like that), very wealthy, and most everything in between neighborhoods.

These voters tended to end up in two categories, ideological Republicans and economic Republicans. Of course there was cross over, but there were Republican voters who would clearly benefit more from Dem economic policy. I even heard a few campaign managers refer to lower income Republicans as “ideological supporters”. These people clearly respond to the Republican SOCIAL message, though. “Traditional values” are a huge concern to Republican voters who are primarily ideological in nature, something that has been exploited by both parties in Southern strategies (Clinton, Carter are examples of part of the Dem Southern Strategy). The Republicans just staked a lot more on it than the Dems. And let me be clear, there’s nothing wrong with supporting a candidate whose values are perceived to be in line with yours. And it worked quite well for the Republicans for a long while, when a large enough segment of America identified with the message. A huge chunk of this segment was the aging, tending towards conservative, baby boomer generation. Combined with a number of conservative rural Americans, the Republicans had a very reliable base that turned out to vote very consistently.

We may be in the beginning of a shift in American party politics because that Republican base is becoming outnumbered by the Democratic base. And that base is actually turning out to vote in higher numbers than the Republicans base for the first time in a long time. I don’t think the Republicans are going to be able to continue to do what they’ve done for the past 40+ years (in terms of campaign strategy) and continue to be as powerful a force as they have been.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?ref=politics

PD

Thanks a lot for the effort, Periscope. It's appreciated and respectfully recieved. Adds some more and very interesting input.

SUBMAN1
11-20-08, 09:02 AM
What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies?
This statement in particular is hilariously fallacious. This is typical thinking from people who don't understand economic principles or the very concepts of liberty. Those who believe in economic freedom and the sanctity of private property rights usually vote Republican as they are the ones closest to upholding those ideals. Democrats tell you that they're doing you a favor by taking more money out of your wallet. Democrats are also the ones currently discussing seizing/confiscating personal pension accounts (private property) to roll into some blackhole government "annuity". Democrats are the party of the "entitlement junkies". The thing is, the working man who is self-sufficient, appreciates freedom and liberty, lives by a code of personal responsibility and holds others to the same standard of accountability, and is law abiding could never vote Democrat unless they really didn't understand the issues or are emotionally driven. The Democrat Party simply has no stake in these traditional American values. These are some of the values I believe that could be included with what Frame was talking about.

You beat me to it man. Enough said.

I will add one point - I do find it hilarious that democrats believe the above article. Shows their brain has not past about the 3 year old mark since they have no capability to analyze it for themselves. :down:

-S

Morts
11-20-08, 09:13 AM
You beat me to it man. Enough said.

I will add one point - I do find it hilarious that democrats believe the above article. Shows their brain has not past about the 3 year old mark since they have no capability to analyze it for themselves. :down:

-S
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

MothBalls
11-20-08, 11:04 AM
It doesn't say anything about people like me who don't vote for a party.

When I vote I look at each candidate individually. I don't pay attention to what party they are in. I might vote for a (R)Congressman and a (D)Senator.

Same with anything else, each on it's own merit.

They should abolish the two part system. It sometimes appears to divide what is supposed to be a united country.

August
11-20-08, 11:06 AM
It doesn't say anything about people like me who don't vote for a party.

When I vote I look at each candidate individually. I don't pay attention to what party they are in. I might vote for a (R)Congressman and a (D)Senator.

Same with anything else, each on it's own merit.

They should abolish the two part system. It sometimes appears to divide what is supposed to be a united country.

I agree. I think that political parties are obsolete in this world of instant mass communication.

Bewolf
11-20-08, 11:14 AM
It doesn't say anything about people like me who don't vote for a party.

When I vote I look at each candidate individually. I don't pay attention to what party they are in. I might vote for a (R)Congressman and a (D)Senator.

Same with anything else, each on it's own merit.

They should abolish the two part system. It sometimes appears to divide what is supposed to be a united country.
I agree. I think that political parties are obsolete in this world of instant mass communication.

care to elaborate on this?

Letum
11-20-08, 11:15 AM
It doesn't say anything about people like me who don't vote for a party.

When I vote I look at each candidate individually. I don't pay attention to what party they are in. I might vote for a (R)Congressman and a (D)Senator.

Same with anything else, each on it's own merit.

They should abolish the two part system. It sometimes appears to divide what is supposed to be a united country.
I agree. I think that political parties are obsolete in this world of instant mass communication.


Nothing annoys me more than the whipping system in British politics.
I hear it is even more potent over in the US, but I am no expert.

August
11-20-08, 11:36 AM
care to elaborate on this?

Well I believe that belonging to a party isn't as important now that a candidate can communicate directly to the electorate.

UnderseaLcpl
11-20-08, 11:40 AM
care to elaborate on this?

Well I believe that belonging to a party isn't as important now that a candidate can communicate directly to the electorate.

That would be nice, I agree, but it is hard to achieve that in a winner-takes-all system. There will always be voting blocks in any form of democracy even if parties are outlawed, and a party is basically just an organized voting block anyway.

It's a good idea, but I'm pessimistic.

Digital_Trucker
11-20-08, 11:54 AM
care to elaborate on this?
Well I believe that belonging to a party isn't as important now that a candidate can communicate directly to the electorate.
If they would communicate in an honest manner that would be true. On the other hand, in the case of a candidate that has been in a political office before, we, as voters, should be able to see what they stand for by their voting records. Unfortunately, honest communication by a politician is rare and self-informed voters are, too.

Hylander_1314
11-21-08, 04:28 PM
The best way to keep balance, is to do what used to be done. After the election, who ever lost the presidential race, becomes the VP.