Somali Pirates hit a new high... er low

[SteamWake]

Stunning act of piracy

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,453030,00.html

[OneToughHerring]

If I was a pirate, I'd seriously consider that as a potential target. Or maybe Abramovich's luxury yacht. Taking care to avoid the missiles and other defence systems he has set up on that thing.

[geetrue]

This is the biggest heist so far ... the Saudi's are not going to be happy.
They could even cut off Kenya's oil supply for this one.

Whatever happened to that russian ship loaded with tanks anyway?

[Skybird]

Isn't it stunning how civilised we deal with the problem?

If it were up to me, some fast attack boats and frigates, some missile-armed helicopters, and blazing guns and flying vampyres whenever a pirate contact pops up on the screen, gets reported, gets sighted, or a home port and a home village of pirates gets identified. Problem solved.

Instead the german frigates: seeing an attack, observing while being forbidden to do something, anything, and then writing a report. That is what I call superior civilised ROEs! :up: The effect of deterrence is immense. And keeping precise record of one's own failure is important.

I wonder if they send the pirates maybe even a weather update, to make sure they safely make it back to port, those poor and handicapped little fellas.

Sounds like a nice hunting ground for some Little Birds armed with FFARs. What else for do we sent combat units into the region? For just writing reports? That could be acchieved with a rubber boat of the city police and a traffic cop with binoculars as well.

Politicians... :damn: :dead:

[Skybird]

This is the biggest heist so far ... the Saudi's are not going to be happy.
They could even cut off Kenya's oil supply for this one.

Whatever happened to that russian ship loaded with tanks anyway?
Still anchoring at Eyt (pirate home port).

[MothBalls]

Time for the UN to ask for naval support from a coalition of countries and start doing convoys.

[AntEater]

Actually the title should be:
"Pirates go to new (ship) lenghts"
:rotfl:

Re convoying, the problem with that is that international maritime trade is a merciless business. Some pilots of airlines complain about underfunded maintenace and low wages, in merchant traffic, these are standard.
Ships and crews are pretty much considered expendable, all the more because most of the ships are second hand and most of the crews are not from the same country as the owners.
Convoying would cost shipping companies more than losing the odd ship and crew to pirates.
Also, these ships are usually flagged under cheap flags. And as far as I know neither Liberia nor Cyprus are renowned naval powers.
Also, the great shipping companies like Maersk or HAPAG-Lloyd are not the ones to lose ships.
HAPAG ships give Somalia a wide berth and move quite fast, above 17 knots. At high seas, a Dhow or RHIB will have trouble catching them. Not to mention that for those companies, neither ships nor crew are expendable, some of them even register their ships under their national flag(!).
It is the bottom tier of maritime traffic that suffers, and those companies do not have the political leverage Maersk, P&O or HAPAG have.

[Blacklight]

One of my first responses would be: If a port is identified as a pirate haven and is used once for that purpose, it would be bombed.

I too support military strikes against these guys. We need to send a message of cruise missiles and bombs to these guys and reduce their speedboats to matchsticks.

We also need to get a LOT more multinational armed patrols in the area. Maybe even set up a "no trafic zone" where any vessel under a certain size will be terminated on sight.

[Skybird]

Time for the UN to ask for naval support from a coalition of countries and start doing convoys.

Arent we already doing something like that? Combat units we have in the operation's area. The problem is the ROEs. the Russians for example are allowed to open fire, as far as I do know (not sure, though). that'S why the mere fact that they were going in was enough to scare away the pirates trying to catch the Saudi freighter. especially the western navies seem to have ROE that bind both their hands on their back.

[Skybird]

One of my first responses would be: If a port is identified as a pirate haven and is used once for that purpose, it would be bombed.

I too support military strikes against these guys. We need to send a message of cruise missiles and bombs to these guys and reduce their speedboats to matchsticks.

We also need to get a LOT more multinational armed patrols in the area. Maybe even set up a "no trafic zone" where any vessel under a certain size will be terminated on sight.
wasting cruise missiles on tiny nutshells worth 100 $US only is a waste of money. As I said, CAS with FFAR and autocannons would be sufficient. eventually a Hellfire for those tough guys raising their RPGs at helicopters. One should get a deal with the Americans that they station one of their helicopter-carriers in the area and establish a pattern of area-covering air pastrols. Ships and nations trafficking through the area could be taxed, like a toll station on the highway. I do not see why America should pay for such an operation alone.

[SteamWake]

Isn't it stunning how civilised we deal with the problem?

If it were up to me, some fast attack boats and frigates, some missile-armed helicopters, and blazing guns and flying vampyres whenever a pirate contact pops up on the screen, gets reported, gets sighted, or a home port and a home village of pirates gets identified. Problem solved.

Instead the german frigates: seeing an attack, observing while being forbidden to do something, anything, and then writing a report. That is what I call superior civilised ROEs! :up: The effect of deterrence is immense. And keeping precise record of one's own failure is important.

I wonder if they send the pirates maybe even a weather update, to make sure they safely make it back to port, those poor and handicapped little fellas.

Sounds like a nice hunting ground for some Little Birds armed with FFARs. What else for do we sent combat units into the region? For just writing reports? That could be acchieved with a rubber boat of the city police and a traffic cop with binoculars as well.

Politicians... :damn: :dead:

Skybird Im supprised at you, what about the enviromental impact? :hmm:

[Blacklight]

If the Somali government (and I use that term loosely) can't stop these guys, A multi-national colaition should go in there and wipe these guys out. Safe havens and ports that support these guys need to be bombed. Pirates need to be taken out. Shipping companies have to stop paying ransoms. Special Forces should be kept in that area specificly for taking these guys out. Convoys with proper ROE's need to be utilised. We need a few multinational aircraft carriers there to provide constant air patrol, also with proper ROE !
Lets see how they like it whenever they try to hijack a ship and their port gets turned into a burning heap !

[PeriscopeDepth]

According to this (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/search/label/Somalia) Royal Navy Marines were recently engaged in a shootout with pirates were stupid enough to shoot at them (Russia may also have been involved). Also:
- The Indian Navy around Somalia may be using a different RoE than Western navies involved.
- An older post (I didn't see it on the front page and didn't dig for it) has a merchant captain's account of coming under attack by pirates and a NATO P-3 dropping ordinance on them.

PD

[Skybird]

If the Somali government (and I use that term loosely) can't stop these guys,
There is none worth to be called that. The place is a true anarchy.

Skybird Im supprised at you, what about the enviromental impact? :hmm:
Hm? You mean 20 liters of gasoline, most of it burning after the nutshell was hit, maybe poisoning the ocean there?

[Letum]

Must....not....romanticize pirates...*strains*

[fatty]

Excellent! More material for my thesis! :p

[Brag]

These pirates are real tonnage kings:arrgh!:
So far, this month seven freighters been hijacked.
Some years ago, I took a ride in a cigarette smuggling boat, similar to the boats used by the Somali pirates. This boat was capable of doing 36 knots in a slight choppy sea.

[Carotio]

Not long time ago, a Danish warship patrolling the area caught a group of pirates and their equipment, which strongly indicated their piracy activities.

Then the problem arose. Before sending out the ship, there was no real policy, and there still ain't AFAIK, what to do with captured pirates.

Most ordinary people, including me, would probably say: punish them as pirates were used to be punished: either sent off ship in the sea without anything far from land or hung up in a mast. Not too much discussion, just do it.

But civilized as WE were, the ship crew were not allowed to do that, so the pirates were relased. I repeat: they were released. :o :o :o
Nobody in our country would want them to come to our country for a trial, because then they might got asylum in then end, which would be some sort of reward in the end. And the UN giving Denmark mandate to patrol the area have not given mandate to execute the pirates. Why not?

I would not be surprised if these were the same who captured this big tanker. They must be laughing their a$$'es off of our "civilized" manners.

[baggygreen]

Funny, isnt it - by our being 'civilised' we're costing ourselves money, and rewarding those who don't play by the same rules.

heres a question for the more legal-minded types.

have the laws authorising the execution of those engaged in piracy ever been revoked? If not, then a more generic question is why the hell aren't we using them?!

[MothBalls]

Funny, isnt it - by our being 'civilised' we're costing ourselves money, and rewarding those who don't play by the same rules.

heres a question for the more legal-minded types.

have the laws authorising the execution of those engaged in piracy ever been revoked? If not, then a more generic question is why the hell aren't we using them?!

Because we're civilized.

[Skybird]

I don't want and don't need executions. Just opening fire on attacking speedboats not with the intention to scare them away but to sink them (so that neither the boats nor the crews could escape and strike another day), and if that does not score the intended effect: hitting their houses and villages of origin with iron fists until their own people hold them back - that would be good enough for me.

[MothBalls]

I don't want and don't need executions. Just opening fire on attacking speedboats not with the intention to scare them away but to sink them (so that neither the boats nor the crews could escape and strike another day), and if that does not score the intended effect: hitting their houses and villages of origin with iron fists until their own people hold them back - that would be good enough for me.

Surprised to see you say that. You take the chance of hurting innocent people. Sounds more like revenge than justice.

Justice would be secretly arming some of the high value targets and when the pirates approach, blow them the f' out of the water, kill them all. I have no problem at all with killing pirates attempting to attack an unarmed vessel in international waters.

[Skybird]

I don't want and don't need executions. Just opening fire on attacking speedboats not with the intention to scare them away but to sink them (so that neither the boats nor the crews could escape and strike another day), and if that does not score the intended effect: hitting their houses and villages of origin with iron fists until their own people hold them back - that would be good enough for me.

Surprised to see you say that. You take the chance of hurting innocent people. Sounds more like revenge than justice.

Justice would be secretly arming some of the high value targets and when the pirates approach, blow them the f' out of the water, kill them all. I have no problem at all with killing pirates attempting to attack an unarmed vessel in international waters.
no revenge, I am just aware of the complicated nature of any effort trying to differ between civilians and pirates, because most pirates are civilian villagers and pirates (and/or militias) at the same time. As I said above, Somalia has no central government worth to be called that, and in that understanding is not so much a nation, but simply an unregulated, anarchistic jungle. Being pirate is a part time job for many villagers and fishermen. It is being switched on and off.

[AntEater]

AFAIK the UK abolish the death penalty for piracy only a few years ago.
By then it was taken as a joke.

However, the question is interesting legally.
I suppose Danes, Americans and Germans have the same problem.
Our navies are not police forces.
The USCG is the "ocean police" for the US, the USN may have the mandate for killing terrorists, but pirates are criminals.
Germany has the same problem, only our institutions are so convoluted that we don't even have a coast guard ;)
So the US might solve the problem Bush style by declaring them as terrorists.
The british, french and russians are simply less hindered by legalese.
Also, the british navy was traditionally founded for this exact purpose.
Actually the german navy was too, in a way. The first purpose build warship(s), the convoy ship(s) "Wappen von Hamburg" (a series of ships with the same name) were build by the free and hanseatic city of Hamburg to protect their merchants from barbary pirates.
After the last Wappen von Hamburg blew up in the early 18th century, Hamburg decided it was cheaper to rely on the royal navy for that. Also, these ships had mutated from a useful small escort into a quasi-battleship only outdone by the Sovreign of the Seas.
A second problem, which I think happened with the danes was simple:
The Pirates commited their offenses (piracy) in international waters. They were either aboard a merchant vessel or aboard their own. If they were on their own vessel, in theory (very theoretic) Somali law would apply, if they are on a merchant, the law of the flag state would apply.
So they were put on danish "territory" (one of her danish majesty's ships) but had not commited a crime on danish soil.
Extraditing them to Somali authorities would be the normal course of action, but there are none worth mentioning.

Please note that I do not endorse this legal mumbo-jumbo. I can't do anything about it either.
A UN mandate would actually be a way out, as within such a mandate, it doesn't matter what the individual nations let their navies do or on whose soil the pirates were.
A UN mandate would be the sole legal basis for any desired action, and the member states would just make their ships available to execute UN law.

Another alternative would be simply to blow the **** out of any dhow that shows up.
Problem is, there are a lot of dhows there and no real way of telling fishermen apart from pirates.
Especially since both are usually armed (fishermen have to defend themselves) and sometimes identical or at least using the same boats.

[baggygreen]

Funny, isnt it - by our being 'civilised' we're costing ourselves money, and rewarding those who don't play by the same rules.

heres a question for the more legal-minded types.

have the laws authorising the execution of those engaged in piracy ever been revoked? If not, then a more generic question is why the hell aren't we using them?!

Because we're civilized.I was just begging for that hey!:|\\

[baggygreen]

Funny, isnt it - by our being 'civilised' we're costing ourselves money, and rewarding those who don't play by the same rules.

heres a question for the more legal-minded types.

have the laws authorising the execution of those engaged in piracy ever been revoked? If not, then a more generic question is why the hell aren't we using them?!

Because we're civilized.I was just begging for that hey!:|\\

[bookworm_020]

AFAIK the UK abolish the death penalty for piracy only a few years ago.
By then it was taken as a joke.

However, the question is interesting legally.
I suppose Danes, Americans and Germans have the same problem.

Well as you can't kill them, just pop them in the sea in life jackets with the daily rubbish and wait for the sharks to come and collect!:arrgh!: They are killed by mother nature, not the navy, so all laws are upheld!

[jpm1]

strange land they're considered as a country but it's the only place on earth that can't manage to get a government i mean is there only a president there ..?
the size of their small barcasses may be difficult to detect on radar too :hmm:

[Skybird]

Nicht allein die Überfallkommandos verdienen am Lösegeld, an der nahezu staatenlosen Küste Somalias und dem – mehr oder weniger unabhängigen – Puntland, entstehen derzeit geradezu wohlhabende Wohngegenden mit vielen Bungalow-Neubauten, in deren Garagen die Nobelmarken der Welt abgestellt sind, wo Warlords, Clanchefs und eine Vielfalt von Dienstleistern darum bemüht sind, sich schadlos an der Piraterie zu halten. Gewissermaßen als Zulieferindustrie für die kriminelle Branche haben sich rund um Eyl, Harardhere und Hobyo unzählige Restaurants und Garküchen angesiedelt. Ihre größten Umsätze erzielen sie mit den Hunderten von Geiseln, denen sie – mangels Konkurrenz – die Preise frei diktieren können. Experten taxieren den Jahresumsatz von Lösegeld bei den Piraten am Horn von Afrika auf etwa 300 Millionen Dollar. Dies wären 150 Prozent des öffentlichen Budgets des vermeintlichen „Staatsgebietes“ von Puntland, in dem Eyl liegt.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article2743992/Der-Weg-zur-Piratenjagd-ist-frei.html


summary:
Experts estimate the annual ransom earned by those pirates to be around 300 million dollar, which is 150% of Puntlands income. Whole villages live by supporting assault commandos. Along the coasts, whole small towns with many villas have been build where the warlords and clan-chiefs are residing and live a life in wealth and luxury. Piracy has turned into a profitable industry, and whole restaurants and their kitchens pop up to supply both assault commandos and hostages with food. Village communities are in almost complete support of pirate operations, and have made it the basis of their economic living.

I think this gives an idea of what we are talking about. This is not just some poor, poor fisherman not catching eniough fish anymore and being driven by hunger whn they chase those big ships instead - this is a profitable enterprise on large scale, run by warlords and militias chasing the big money. No reason to have romantic images of the noble but poor natives in your mind. Considering it, I would expand my intial tactic, send in a carrier, and let the bombers clean the whole coast of all those noble restaurants and villas and new townships and burn them down and flatten all the pirate nests completely. In other words: waging unlimited war on land. these pirate enterprises are as desperate and innocent as is the FARC innocent of having turned from an ideologically driven guerilla into an a usual common mafia group commiting acts of ordinary organised crime: smuggling drugs and weapons, and kidnapping for ransom, not following any ideals beyond that anymore.

the original article in full also mentions that it is deeply worrying that this tanker was hijacked: outside the dangerous waters, far away from the coats nad in open blue water, pirates having used a hijecked big trawler to get out to the open sea that far and just near the tanker boarded their small attack boats. This is a complete new quality, and a very dangerous escalation.

the article also says the EU is hammering out a deal with the german navy that would allow them to be a bit more active and eventually arrest pirates - to hand them over to the somalias (very good joke), or hand them over to german authorities if they had directly threatened german "Rechtsgüter". No word on preventing attacks by tying to strike the attacking boats. It is so much safer to send a rubber boat with commandoes to recapture the ship, or have a helo hovering over a ship that is hijecked by persons armed with missile launchers.

idiots, idiots, idiots.

[DeepIron]

Personally, I don't understand why the International community isn't taking more strident (military if needed) measures. The more we "pussyfoot" around, the bolder these guys become...:shifty:

[AntEater]

Actually I think there IS a Somali government of ethiopian making (so by proxy a US ally :D) that wants to try pirates.
Pirate activity is mainly in Puntland, which is basically an independent country in the north, less ravaged by the civil war.
So the (ethiopian proclaimed) somali government is interested in trying pirates as seperatists.
Funny is that previous to piracy, Puntland was always portrayed as a model region in Somalia, where the rule of law still exists etc.....

[jpm1]

the FARC at the origin weren' bad guys i lived in Colombia in the 80's the governments of that era were known to be highly corrupted . the problem's that these governments were supported by drug cartels which brewed billions of dollars i mean it wasn't difficult not to do the same to fight such power . i heard that then they become a kinda mafia too to finance their weapons but for having known this group at its origin at the origin they weren't corrupted guys they just wanted to fight injustice , they have gone bad then maybe don't know but at the origin they were a group of "campesinos" fighting for justice .

[sonar732]

Amazing enough...the price of crude is still going down after this!

EDIT: I'm surprised that there hasn't been more security details being hired by the companies that operate in the Gulf of Aden.

[Zayphod]

One of my first responses would be: If a port is identified as a pirate haven and is used once for that purpose, it would be bombed.

I too support military strikes against these guys. We need to send a message of cruise missiles and bombs to these guys and reduce their speedboats to matchsticks.

We also need to get a LOT more multinational armed patrols in the area. Maybe even set up a "no trafic zone" where any vessel under a certain size will be terminated on sight.

I'm with you 100% on that one. I'd send at least 4 warships to within blasting distance of their harbors, stop and search each and every boat coming out/going in, and those that don't stop, blow them out of the water. Twice (just to make sure).

If they're found to be bringing weapons out, blast the harbor and support structure.

Yes, the UN will complain about it. Tough. Let them send their own ships there to fix it if they don't like it.

So says I, once I become the Evil Overlord. :up:

[Wolfehunter]

Nicht allein die Überfallkommandos verdienen am Lösegeld, an der nahezu staatenlosen Küste Somalias und dem – mehr oder weniger unabhängigen – Puntland, entstehen derzeit geradezu wohlhabende Wohngegenden mit vielen Bungalow-Neubauten, in deren Garagen die Nobelmarken der Welt abgestellt sind, wo Warlords, Clanchefs und eine Vielfalt von Dienstleistern darum bemüht sind, sich schadlos an der Piraterie zu halten. Gewissermaßen als Zulieferindustrie für die kriminelle Branche haben sich rund um Eyl, Harardhere und Hobyo unzählige Restaurants und Garküchen angesiedelt. Ihre größten Umsätze erzielen sie mit den Hunderten von Geiseln, denen sie – mangels Konkurrenz – die Preise frei diktieren können. Experten taxieren den Jahresumsatz von Lösegeld bei den Piraten am Horn von Afrika auf etwa 300 Millionen Dollar. Dies wären 150 Prozent des öffentlichen Budgets des vermeintlichen „Staatsgebietes“ von Puntland, in dem Eyl liegt.

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article2743992/Der-Weg-zur-Piratenjagd-ist-frei.html

summary:
Experts estimate the annual ransom earned by those pirates to be around 300 million dollar, which is 150% of Puntlands income. Whole villages live by supporting assault commandos. Along the coasts, whole small towns with many villas have been build where the warlords and clan-chiefs are residing and live a life in wealth and luxury. Piracy has turned into a profitable industry, and whole restaurants and their kitchens pop up to supply both assault commandos and hostages with food. Village communities are in almost complete support of pirate operations, and have made it the basis of their economic living.

I think this gives an idea of what we are talking about. This is not just some poor, poor fisherman not catching eniough fish anymore and being driven by hunger whn they chase those big ships instead - this is a profitable enterprise on large scale, run by warlords and militias chasing the big money. No reason to have romantic images of the noble but poor natives in your mind. Considering it, I would expand my intial tactic, send in a carrier, and let the bombers clean the whole coast of all those noble restaurants and villas and new townships and burn them down and flatten all the pirate nests completely. In other words: waging unlimited war on land. these pirate enterprises are as desperate and innocent as is the FARC innocent of having turned from an ideologically driven guerilla into an a usual common mafia group commiting acts of ordinary organised crime: smuggling drugs and weapons, and kidnapping for ransom, not following any ideals beyond that anymore.

the original article in full also mentions that it is deeply worrying that this tanker was hijacked: outside the dangerous waters, far away from the coats nad in open blue water, pirates having used a hijecked big trawler to get out to the open sea that far and just near the tanker boarded their small attack boats. This is a complete new quality, and a very dangerous escalation.

the article also says the EU is hammering out a deal with the german navy that would allow them to be a bit more active and eventually arrest pirates - to hand them over to the somalias (very good joke), or hand them over to german authorities if they had directly threatened german "Rechtsgüter". No word on preventing attacks by tying to strike the attacking boats. It is so much safer to send a rubber boat with commandoes to recapture the ship, or have a helo hovering over a ship that is hijecked by persons armed with missile launchers.

idiots, idiots, idiots.Either which way you look at it skybird these men and woman so called pirates have guns to their heads and their families if they don't do what they need to do to stay alive their dead anyways. Its about survival. So if they don't work for warlords they're dead or slaves. If they do and become pirates they may get lucky.

Its about chance. What are the odds. Both have high chances of death in the end.

Its survival in the muck and you would do it too if you had little or no choice.

Is it right? No but that is reality. Target the warlord.

[PeriscopeDepth]

The world has spoken on Somalia. Nobody cares. Unless of course, you start messing with our trade.

PD

[CaptHawkeye]

What's funny is that an absurdly simple way to protect merchant shipping in the Gulf is already available. It wouldn't even require arming Tankers and Freighters. Simply bring back the Convoy System. Every major world power and their dog has SOME kind of naval presense in that region. It wouldn't be hard to just organize the container ships into groups and have them escorted by a single DDG or even a Frigate.

[PeriscopeDepth]

What's funny is that an absurdly simple way to protect merchant shipping in the Gulf is already available. It wouldn't even require arming Tankers and Freighters. Simply bring back the Convoy System. Every major world power and their dog has SOME kind of naval presense in that region. It wouldn't be hard to just organize the container ships into groups and have them escorted by a single DDG or even a Frigate.
Why not just put a few squads of infantry on each vessel depending on its size? Would be a lot cheaper than some NATO FFG that was made to hunt Soviet subs.

PD

[Skybird]

the FARC at the origin weren' bad guys i lived in Colombia in the 80's the governments of that era were known to be highly corrupted . the problem's that these governments were supported by drug cartels which brewed billions of dollars i mean it wasn't difficult not to do the same to fight such power . i heard that then they become a kinda mafia too to finance their weapons but for having known this group at its origin at the origin they weren't corrupted guys they just wanted to fight injustice , they have gone bad then maybe don't know but at the origin they were a group of "campesinos" fighting for justice .
Have I said anything different than that they turned from a left-leaning guerilla in the past to ordinary (and very brutal) criminals today? My point was that the pirates in somalia never have been what Farc was at the beginning - they were local criminals in the past decade, who then turned professional and being hired and supported by the militias and warlords. the warlords are the ones who ruined the country and are responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands over the past 20 years. These masses died of starvation for the most, and the many wars between rivaling warlords. And the West, with every ransom payed, finances these mass murders and criminals, and pays for their new weapons. they should and must be killed and their houses and boats destroyed, their supporters killed and the pirate villages burnt. Not by troops on the ground, we already had that, but by a robust air campaign via carrier, since this is not about invasiona nd conquering, but simpole destruction - and destrioytion alone can be achieved quite well from the air, with no hightech airdefense around. Piracy has been turned into a business now, and it constructs infrastructure on land for future piracy. It influences the way people live so that in the future they depend even more on supporting pirates - and then you will feel even more scruples to fire at those "poor, noble victims of and by the many millions - but Somalia's pirates have nothing to do with them anymore. they are militias and gangsters and fight not for freedom and survival, but their bosses' wealth. Destroy them.

[CaptHawkeye]

What's funny is that an absurdly simple way to protect merchant shipping in the Gulf is already available. It wouldn't even require arming Tankers and Freighters. Simply bring back the Convoy System. Every major world power and their dog has SOME kind of naval presense in that region. It wouldn't be hard to just organize the container ships into groups and have them escorted by a single DDG or even a Frigate.
Why not just put a few squads of infantry on each vessel depending on its size? Would be a lot cheaper than some NATO FFG that was made to hunt Soviet subs.

PD

This increases the danger to the tank though. Since infantry squads could repel attacks easily, they could not discourage them entirely. No one is going to want to assault a convoy of 3-4 ships when a Burkleswarm is leading the pack. That's the problem with a lot of these pirates, their are so many of them and yet so few military ships to GET them. What you want to do is make them come to you.

[geetrue]

Amazing enough...the price of crude is still going down after this!

EDIT: I'm surprised that there hasn't been more security details being hired by the companies that operate in the Gulf of Aden.

not today ... crude went up to $58 due mainly to this heist

here are some clues: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1119/p01s03-woaf.html


Mustafa Alani, director of the Center for Counter-Terrorism at the Gulf Research Center, a Dubai-based think tank, said that there is a part of Somalia – Puntland – where the pirates operate from and that the leader of that area is "taxing those pirates." The leader of Puntland denies any involvement with the pirates, Alani says, but adds: "You can't do these activities without political protection."

While security experts say piracy has gotten more sophisticated in recent years, they do not believe that pirates are anything more than high-rolling criminals with an eye for making easy cash.

[fatty]

What do you guys think about allegations that these pirates are funnelling their prizes into funding terrorism? These are huge multi-million dollar ransoms that they are collecting for themselves, but they don't have very many places to spend it.

[Skybird]

What's funny is that an absurdly simple way to protect merchant shipping in the Gulf is already available. It wouldn't even require arming Tankers and Freighters. Simply bring back the Convoy System. Every major world power and their dog has SOME kind of naval presense in that region. It wouldn't be hard to just organize the container ships into groups and have them escorted by a single DDG or even a Frigate.
Why not just put a few squads of infantry on each vessel depending on its size? Would be a lot cheaper than some NATO FFG that was made to hunt Soviet subs.

PD

This increases the danger to the tank though. Since infantry squads could repel attacks easily, they could not discourage them entirely. No one is going to want to assault a convoy of 3-4 ships when a Burkleswarm is leading the pack. That's the problem with a lot of these pirates, their are so many of them and yet so few military ships to GET them. What you want to do is make them come to you.

Air power.

Little Birds, Cobras, air-based recce.

FFARs, Cannons.

You don't want to wait until they "come to you". You want to actively hunt, find and kill them before they can come to you, and destroy their infrastructure on land, and the rewards their bosses have from this lucrative business. Bomb the villas and new settlements from where they operate. that way they cannot and/or will not come to you anymore.

the business must be stopped to be rewarding for them. It must be turned to be painful for them - so make it painful for them, then. when enough pirates have been killed and enough villas have been burnt, they will not come anymore.

[Skybird]

What do you guys think about allegations that these pirates are funnelling their prizes into funding terrorism? These are huge multi-million dollar ransoms that they are collecting for themselves, but they don't have very many places to spend it.
I don't mind wether they spend it on their own wars, or wars against us - both is a reason to put them on the list of endangered species.

[PeriscopeDepth]

What's funny is that an absurdly simple way to protect merchant shipping in the Gulf is already available. It wouldn't even require arming Tankers and Freighters. Simply bring back the Convoy System. Every major world power and their dog has SOME kind of naval presense in that region. It wouldn't be hard to just organize the container ships into groups and have them escorted by a single DDG or even a Frigate. Why not just put a few squads of infantry on each vessel depending on its size? Would be a lot cheaper than some NATO FFG that was made to hunt Soviet subs.

PD
This increases the danger to the tank though. Since infantry squads could repel attacks easily, they could not discourage them entirely. No one is going to want to assault a convoy of 3-4 ships when a Burkleswarm is leading the pack. That's the problem with a lot of these pirates, their are so many of them and yet so few military ships to GET them. What you want to do is make them come to you.
Air power.

Little Birds, Cobras, air-based recce.

FFARs, Cannons.

You don't want to wait until they "come to you". You want to actively hunt, find and kill them before they can come to you, and destroy their infrastructure on land, and the rewards their bosses have from this lucrative business. Bomb the villas and new settlements from where they operate. that way they cannot and/or will not come to you anymore.

the business must be stopped to be rewarding for them. It must be turned to be painful for them - so make it painful for them, then. when enough pirates have been killed and enough villas have been burnt, they will not come anymore.
I agree with you Sky.

A combination of a few squadrons of MPAs (or even Predators) and attack helicopters would be an excellent solution.

PD

[Sonarman]

This really is getting out of hand, No sooner have they docked their captured supertanker... they go out again & seize another ship (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/19/piracy-somalia-ship-hong-kong)

[Skybird]

Actually I get the impression that the german navy has chnaged it's procedure, there have been several news from the past three days that they have taken operations more actively in recent times, sending a helicopter after ships that send a distress call. To what degree they were armed and were authorized to engage with weapons, I do not know. So far the ROEs had been to simply observe events, but not to act. Maybe they have been changed. If so, I would like to know what the ROEs are now.

The French organise convoys since quite some time, but it is too few such convoys. French and British sailors and ships have opened fire at pirates in the past days and weeks. The result seem to be that the number of speedboats attacking a target ship has increased - they now come in swarms of up to 8-12 . they were also decribed to operate in such numbers now that the navy loses track of them in the meaning of not having enough ressources to target them all, and that operaiton area is huge. Which is another argument imo to engage them not on sea, but on land.

[Skybird]

I agree with you Sky.

A combination of a few squadrons of MPAs (or even Predators) and attack helicopters would be an excellent solution.

PD
Missile-armed drones that can patrol the sky for as long as they have weapons or up to - how long? 24, 36 hours? also is a good option. you see a speedboat - you hit it the moment you see it from out of the blue. Should affect their moral, I guess.

Flying drones seem to be the future anyway.

[Schöneboom]

Private enterprise to the rescue:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/10/blackwater-sets-sights-somali-pirates

I liked the part about the "former Navy SEALs" -- that would make a rather quick, one-sided action flick! A cheaper alternative would be, as any SH3 player can guess: armed merchants.

[bookworm_020]

Intresting article on the situation.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bspeedboats-v-warshipsb/2008/11/19/1226770532255.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

[XabbaRus]

Go India.

INS Tabar has sunk a mothership....

[PeriscopeDepth]

Go India. :up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7736885.stm

You have to love how they threatened to destroy a warship that had guns trained on them. Idiots.

PD

[jpm1]

i think proceeding to air strikes this isn't a viable solution why cause soon or later a bomb'll hit a house full of women and children and a reporters group'll manage to get there in a clandestine way to film the scene to put it on our screens and to scandalize us . i think maybe a solution should be to make more air patrols

[Skybird]

Private enterprise to the rescue:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/10/blackwater-sets-sights-somali-pirates

I liked the part about the "former Navy SEALs" -- that would make a rather quick, one-sided action flick! A cheaper alternative would be, as any SH3 player can guess: armed merchants.
Some companies hire British ex navy officers who travel down there by regular air traffic and board the ships without firearms, but bring one of these new sound cannons with them that can pass international borders if deconstructed. It then gets rebuild aboard the ship. source: Some BBC reports from the past two days.

I do not like these sound cannons, for they do nothing to fight the cause of the problem, and let's the attackers escape. I do not wish to let them escape and needing to fight them again and again on other days.

I also do not like the idea of armed Blackwater guards on civilian ships, it puts the merchant crew at risk if there is a firefight, not to mention the ship itself (one RPG going into the bridge, and go figure). Also the reputation of these mercenary companies is somewhat ruined after Iraq and too many complaints there are of these guys being undisciplined trigger-happys (proved in Iraq). War is no business for private enterprise, this is a serious distortion. europe has struggled for long time to get rid of these mercebnary armies we had in earlier times, and replace them with regular standing armies "owned" by a nation'S king.

[jpm1]

or to create escorts i mean find a viable joint point in the indian ocean where ships could joint their escorts Diego garcia maybe

[Skybird]

or to create escorts i mean find a viable joint point in the indian ocean where ships could joint their escorts Diego garcia maybe
and how long should it go like this? It again does nothing to reduce the number of pirates. Piracy itself needs to be battled - not just arranging ourselves with the situation. Hell, they have a constuction boom along the coast! Piracy has turned into a job-motor, one news said today. Tolerance will not get us anywhere else than increasing the problem, and widening their action zone. They already buy better ships and weapons. Sooner or later they get missiles and SAMs, both on sea and on land - and then your tolerance has led you to increasing the drama in africa, and the navy having to deal with an even greater risk.

Let'S shatter them now, while they still are a relatively small opponent. Why waiting until they became a more potent one? The Sirius Star really escalated things and should be understood as a wakeup call, really.

[Konovalov]

Let'S shatter them now, while they still are a relatively small opponent. Why waiting until they became a more potent one? The Sirius Star really escalated things and should be understood as a wakeup call, really.
Couldn't agree more. Well said. :yep: Let's take the gloves off and send a clear message to these thugs that they have bitten off more than they can chew. :arrgh!:

[Foxtrot]

You don't see this matter as I see. First of all keep your "John Rambo", "John McCain", "Chuck Norris" idols, "haaaa! I will send my frigate, my planes, my warships and everything in my arsenal" dreams and gun magazine with big boobs women aside.

Look, first they stole tanks. Now in order to fuel those tanks, they stole a tanker. Now they have two elements but they are lacking munation. For this, they will attack on a military vessel sooner or later....and so on

I say they are creating a stolen army.

[Letum]

You don't see this matter as I see. First of all keep your "John Rambo", "John McCain", "Chuck Norris" idols, "haaaa! I will send my frigate, my planes, my warships and everything in my arsenal" dreams and gun magazine with big boobs women aside.

Look, first they stole tanks. Now in order to fuel those tanks, they stole a tanker. Now they have two elements but they are lacking munation. For this, they will attack on a military vessel sooner or later....and so on

I say they are creating a stolen army.


They need to steal a refinery first.

[jpm1]

create escorts from Diego garcia with for example two departures one at 8h00 and one at 18h00 these guys have nothing but wood barcasses you don't need Moscow like cruisers to provide the protection you take the main navies US , England , France , Germany and the Aussie navy and you're done . Somalian have nothing in their country if you withdraw them what feeds them soon or later they'll have to go back to a peaceful society . Piracy are their only way to buy weapons . The problem won't be sold if they haven't a government and that can be done by the somalian people only

[lesrae]

Go India. :up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7736885.stm

You have to love how they threatened to destroy a warship that had guns trained on them. Idiots.

PD

The RN are doing their bit too :D

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.14277/changeNav/6568 (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.14277/changeNav/6568)

[jpm1]

Go India. :up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7736885.stm

You have to love how they threatened to destroy a warship that had guns trained on them. Idiots.

PD

The RN are doing their bit too :D

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.14277/changeNav/6568 (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.14277/changeNav/6568)

nicely done http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/DRUK.gif

[Bewolf]

As does the BM


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/somalia/3479878/Somali-pirates-try-to-seize-British-ship.html

[jpm1]

As does the BM


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/somalia/3479878/Somali-pirates-try-to-seize-British-ship.html

a bit suicidal behaviour from now on

[AntEater]

Apparently the Bundestag will set new ROEs for the German Navy (BM, Bundesmarine is loooong gone) in December, allowing them to arrest pirates and to use force in cases other than self defense.

But harassing speedboats with a Sea Lynx sounds fun.
I wonder wether the Mk.88As are restricted to the new .50 cal (NOT an M2!) doorgun or if they have Sea Skuas aboard Karlsruhe.

[CaptHawkeye]

So, everyone here IS aware that if you fit a civilian tanker with weapons it is officially considered a warship. Therefore, it will be barred from entering a majority of the world's ports. So, that option is out the windown immedietly.

[sonar732]

Oil is below $50/barrel right now so it looks like this isn't having that much effect on prices.

[August]

So, everyone here IS aware that if you fit a civilian tanker with weapons it is officially considered a warship. Therefore, it will be barred from entering a majority of the world's ports. So, that option is out the windown immedietly.

I'm sure that if the choice was to allow armed merchant ships into port or not have oil delivered they would change their minds about that quickly enough...

[Letum]

There are a few uranium merchant ships that carry 30mm cannon.

[jpm1]

There are a few uranium merchant ships that carry 30mm cannon.

Prove it .. :o

[sonar732]

Found this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081124/ap_on_re_af/piracy) online while reading email...

Shippers seek naval blockade of Somali coast


KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia – Shipping officials from around the world called for a military blockade Monday along the coast of Somalia to intercept pirate vessels heading out to sea.

[Etienne]

There are a few uranium merchant ships that carry 30mm cannon.

Prove it .. :o

I've heard this as well. But then, if you're carrying uranium, you're already dealing with some hard core custom issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye
So, everyone here IS aware that if you fit a civilian tanker with weapons it is officially considered a warship. Therefore, it will be barred from entering a majority of the world's ports. So, that option is out the windown immedietly.


I'm sure that if the choice was to allow armed merchant ships into port or not have oil delivered they would change their minds about that quickly enough...

The oil is received by a private company. Custom decisions are made by a government entity. Governments love nothing more than messing around with foreign shipping companies, if only for the heck of it... I've seen ships being denied entry for sending their papers an hour too late, crew members being confined aboard because of a typo in their birthdate or a small ink stain on their CDCs, you name it. Eventually, enough phone calls and letters will be exchanged (And maybe a couple of bribes) and the ship will be allowed entry. Let's assume it's a small - very small - tanker, and it had to spend two days at anchor. You're up to 50 000$ in lost charter revenue, plus expenses.

Why do you think cruise ships gave up skeet shooting? Half because of environmental regulations, half because of the custom hassle of clearing the rifles into every port. Cruise ship have officers on board dedicated to doing custom paperwork all day long... And they found a couple of 12 gauge to be too much trouble to be worth it.

Imagine a .50 cal. I don't even want to think about small arms; that'd probably be even worst (Due to the possibillity of them being smuggled ashore)

Plus, you have to train the crew (Let's assume they all speak English. Good luck!), buy the guns, (Trust me, it's too expensive) insure them (Hello, workplace injury risks! Fire risks! Explosion risks! It's too expensive.) , carry them (Let's assume 5 tons, at 40$ a ton per trip...), pay customs fees / bribes wherever you go - assuming some podunk country isn't just gonna seize the darn things, or you don't have them stolen in dry dock. Let's also hope that arming the ship doesn't entitle the crew to warzone pay.

Also, you have to train the crew to use them effectively. We're talking about people who, in many cases, can barely be trusted with a paint gun. (Carrying a trained gun crew on top of the existing crew is WAY too expensive to even think about.)

Remember, the merchant marine exists for one purpose, and one purpose only : To turn a profit.

[PeriscopeDepth]

An interesting perspective on the Somali pirate issue from guess where...

Why pirates are good, and why the US isn't doing anything really to stop them. (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/11/are-pirates-problem-or-solution.html)

PD

[Etienne]

An interesting perspective on the Somali pirate issue from guess where...

Why pirates are good, and why the US isn't doing anything really to stop them. (http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/11/are-pirates-problem-or-solution.html)

Well, I'm not a specialist sitting in a warm office in a big city, so I guess my opinion isn't that well researched. I mean, I'm just a blue collar worker and all that.

But as far as I'm concerned, Pirates = Very ****ing bad.

Seriously, is this guy really saying "Let them go at it, it's good for us in the long run"? Isn't that a bit like saying "Let the suicide bomber have their fun, it lowers their number and doesn't kill US citizens"?

While he does make a point that anti-piracy laws probably need a good revamping (I'm not entirely up to date on THAT area of maritime law, but if it's like the rest of it, it needs updating), and it's good that there is finally some media attention to the piracy problem, I just can't wrap my head around the rest of his piece. Let the US fight global terror while the other countries handle this lesser type of terrorism? Deal with the pirate government? They'll stabilize the area?

Whaaaa? Am I missing something here?

Heh, from the blog's "about" thing:

New visitors should expect other contributors in the comments to be smarter than you.

Yeah, I'm not commenting on that blog.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Hey Etienne,

He's doing what academics do. Write a trendy new perspective that may not necessarily be right, but is different and will be noticed. I can't say I believe he's right, but I don't believe he is wrong either. So I'm not sure about this...


Well, I'm not a specialist sitting in a warm office in a big city, so I guess my opinion isn't that well researched. I mean, I'm just a blue collar worker and all that. You give yourself too little credit. I'm betting you make a bunch more than many "white collar" people I know as a ship's officer (I find the "collar" definitions particularly irritating in this age of increasing economic disparity. Just gives people something to be pissed off about at each other.) But anyways, on the subject of the thread.

But as far as I'm concerned, Pirates = Very ****ing bad.

Seriously, is this guy really saying "Let them go at it, it's good for us in the long run"? Isn't that a bit like saying "Let the suicide bomber have their fun, it lowers their number and doesn't kill US citizens"? What he seems to think is that the USN can/should concentrate on GWOT related missions because the rest of the world can, and should step up to the plate. That wouldn't happen if the USN ran around blowing every pirate out of the water they found and solving everybody else's problems for them. Paths of least resistance and whatnot. I don't know where he pulls his economic numbers from, but I'll give him enough credit to assume he's not going around deceiving people.

While he does make a point that anti-piracy laws probably need a good revamping (I'm not entirely up to date on THAT area of maritime law, but if it's like the rest of it, it needs updating), and it's good that there is finally some media attention to the piracy problem, I just can't wrap my head around the rest of his piece. Let the US fight global terror while the other countries handle this lesser type of terrorism? Deal with the pirate government? They'll stabilize the area?

Whaaaa? Am I missing something here? It does sound crazy on the face of it. But I think it's a tenet of US foreign policy now that Islamist governments ala Taliban ruling a country is something that shouldn't be allowed to happen. A bunch of thugs with guns, experience, and their own little navy represent a potential counter to Islamic forces in the area. A context to this is the US relying very much on known heroin runners/warlords (the Afghani Northern Alliance) during OEF.

Heh, from the blog's "about" thing:

New visitors should expect other contributors in the comments to be smarter than you. Do we not expect around here noobs to ask noobish questions?

PD

[Etienne]

What he seems to think is that the USN can/should concentrate on GWOT related missions because the rest of the world can, and should step up to the plate. That wouldn't happen if the USN ran around blowing every pirate out of the water they found and solving everybody else's problems for them. Paths of least resistance and whatnot. I don't know where he pulls his economic numbers from, but I'll give him enough credit to assume he's not going around deceiving people.

While I see his point, I don't really like his attitude of "Let the small fry handle the small problems". I've alway seen the GWOT as something, well, everybody's problem and I think that piracy is, to a point, part of that. It's a lot of money going about, and some of it is going to end up in the bad guy's pocket.

I'm not saying the US should do all of it - far from that. I just don't agree with his "It's not our problem! Let the other guys handle it, then maybe they'll see this war isn't all fun and games!" attitude. It seems manipulative... And he seems to be of the opinion that this won't affect the american economy, which I doubt.

As for his economic numbers, I have my doubts about them, but I don't have any sources to back them up so I'll keep quiet.

It does sound crazy on the face of it. But I think it's a tenet of US foreign policy now that Islamist governments ala Taliban ruling a country is something that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Agreed, except that I think people seem to be forgetting that religion and dictatorship aren't alway intertwine. Case in point, North Korea. That's only tangentially related to the discussion, however, so let's not get side tracked.

A bunch of thugs with guns, experience, and their own little navy represent a potential counter to Islamic forces in the area. A context to this is the US relying very much on known heroin runners/warlords (the Afghani Northern Alliance) during OEF.

They do present a counter to Islamic forces, but they might not be easily put under american control. If this goes unchecked, we might be creating an uncontrollable monster, or nurturing the next dictator.

Do we not expect around here noobs to ask noobish questions?

It's what noobs do. I was just offended by the condescension, I guess.

Overalls, I wouldn't say I'm entirely opposed to the point he's making; I just really don't like his attitude.

[PeriscopeDepth]

While I see his point, I don't really like his attitude of "Let the small fry handle the small problems". I've alway seen the GWOT as something, well, everybody's problem and I think that piracy is, to a point, part of that. It's a lot of money going about, and some of it is going to end up in the bad guy's pocket.
The blogger is contending that the chief US interest here is not letting a failed state give rise to conditions that allowed sophisticated extremist terrorists to flourish and plan external operations from Afghanistan. Especially in a failed state that already has considerable ties to OBL/AQ. While I understand the points you're making here, I believe 9/11 rightfully or wrongfully has scared the hell out this executive branch and probably several more to come. Nobody wants to be the president that has thousands of American civillians murdered by the modern equivalent of viking raiders on his/her watch. I don't think it's the money that's so much the concern to the US, there will always be plenty of terrorism financiers that are much bigger than what relatively little these pirates may or may not be contributing. It's Somalia looking very much like Afghanistan ~1990 and the US trying to be as sure as possible that a similar set of events isn't set into motion again. Apparently the pirates aren't seen as accomplices, in fact enemies of this sort of thing, or the US would be sinking them.

I'm not saying the US should do all of it - far from that. I just don't agree with his "It's not our problem! Let the other guys handle it, then maybe they'll see this war isn't all fun and games!" attitude. It seems manipulative... And he seems to be of the opinion that this won't affect the american economy, which I doubt.
It would seem whatever economic interests the US has here are being trumped by something else or the Americans would be killing some pirates with ease, no?

Agreed, except that I think people seem to be forgetting that religion and dictatorship aren't alway intertwine. Case in point, North Korea. That's only tangentially related to the discussion, however, so let's not get side tracked.
Dictatorships aren't so much the issue. The US has in the past and continues to play ball with dictatorships so long as we feel our interests are being served. Our interests here seem to be preventing similar conditions to the parallel rise of the Taliban and AQ in Somalia. Like Kissinger said, the US doesn't have friends. Just interests.

They do present a counter to Islamic forces, but they might not be easily put under american control. If this goes unchecked, we might be creating an uncontrollable monster, or nurturing the next dictator.
I think a lot of this is a damned if you do or damned if you don't scenario. ANY external action taken in Somalia could cause the rise of a hostile dictator. Not a bit of external action could cause the same thing. It does seem to be though that the US does what it can to keep the Islamic Courts (the Islamist faction's name in Somalia) in a weak position.

Overalls, I wouldn't say I'm entirely opposed to the point he's making; I just really don't like his attitude.
He certainly seems to come from an academic background. And academics do have a tendency to think they know more than other people. It's their profession, to an extent.

PD

[sonar732]

Found this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081203/ap_on_re_mi_ea/piracy) on Yahoo news via the Associated Press.

Cruise ship passengers surprised by pirate attack



MUSCAT, Oman – Passengers on a luxury cruise liner attacked by pirates in the dangerous waters between Yemen and Somalia said Wednesday they were surprised by the assailants' boldness and described hearing the "Pop! Pop! Pop!" of the pirates' rifles firing at the ship.
Sunday's attack on the nearly 600-foot long M/S Nautica in the Gulf of Aden was the latest evidence that pirates have grown more aggressive, viewing almost any ship on the water as a potential target.