Wasting Torpedoes

[Sailor Steve]

There have been threads in the past in which playing styles were discussed, and two of the responses have been "I don't waste torpedoes on anything under 1000/2000/5000 tons" and "the deck guns aren't powerful enough".

I've just found yet another example of real-life kaleuns going against both of those statements. When Hans-Werner Kraus, captain of U-83, attacked the very old Egyptian steamer Said, which displaced a whopping 231 tons, he fired two torpedoes, both of which missed, and then spent 50 rounds from his deck gun sinking the little ship. Of course it doesn't say how many of those rounds missed, but still...
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/1755.html

[bigboywooly]

Aye RL Uboats didnt come across targets as often as we do in SH3
Target was a target whatever the tonnage

U 19 - 1 warship sunk for a total of 441 tons
U 24 - 5 warships sunk for a total of 571 tons
U 653 - 1 warship sunk for a total of 840 tons

[Hanomag]

GASP! :o

[Sailor Steve]

On the other hand...

Here's a u-boat sinking four wooden sailing ships - all by ramming!:rotfl:
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/3181.html

[Kapt Z]

Aye RL Uboats didnt come across targets as often as we do in SH3
Target was a target whatever the tonnage



Exactly!:yep:

I cannot say for GWX, since my computer won't run it, but I see way too many targets.(most of the time!)

I still use the auto-TDC, which is WAY too reliable, so I usually fire off 2-3 torps into the sea at the beginning of a patrol to count as 'misses/malfunctions'. I also fire two torpedoes at anything more than 3000 tons. I know I can sink them with one, but I assume a real Kaleun would not know that. Therefore a good patrol is maybe 20,000 to 30,000 tons=4-7 ships.

[Sailor Steve]

GWX cuts way down on the contacts, but still more than real life. I stay in my assigned grid for the whole patrol, which makes a big difference in that respec.

I use manual targetting, but still use Weapons Officer Assistance, and I do several sightings for each shot just as if I was making the calculations. It's surprising how many times I still miss. I too consider 20,000 tons a great patrol.

[Myxale]

Oh, I don't know.
To me GWX is most authentic! Sometimes I get so sink a big cargo with just one Torpedo and other times it has to be more or too many!

As for the contacts...well i just spent 33 days in a VIIB and the majority of it was just cruising around and burning fuel on uncle Karls bill!:hmm:

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, I don't know.
To me GWX is most authentic!
I wasn't saying it's not. I agree with you. I was just saying that it still gives more contacts than real life, and I don't think that can be fixed.

[bigboywooly]

You could probably reduce them but tis a trade of with gameplay and realism
Nobody would want to go out patrol after patrol and sink one or two ships
Or
None at all

[meduza]

In one of the first patrols of my curent career, still on Type II, I hit 2000t Small Merchant with one torpedo. She stoped, listed to port but didn't sink. I fired a coup de grace, but she was still afloat. :o
Reluctant to fire my last torpedo, I surfaced and used my flak gun :arrgh!:. I spent all the ammo (some 800 rounds), but didn't sink her.
Finaly I fired my last torpedo, sank her and return home with some 5000 t. :D

[Jaeger]

Aye RL Uboats didnt come across targets as often as we do in SH3
Target was a target whatever the tonnage



Exactly!:yep:

I cannot say for GWX, since my computer won't run it, but I see way too many targets.(most of the time!)

I still use the auto-TDC, which is WAY too reliable, so I usually fire off 2-3 torps into the sea at the beginning of a patrol to count as 'misses/malfunctions'. I also fire two torpedoes at anything more than 3000 tons. I know I can sink them with one, but I assume a real Kaleun would not know that. Therefore a good patrol is maybe 20,000 to 30,000 tons=4-7 ships.

you can have it more realistic: try to shot manually and estimate the height of the targets mast for range input. also estimate the AOB, like real Kaleuns did. if time is short, estimate targets speed only by watching the bow wave. this estimations real kaleuns must do sometimes (when there was not enough time to do long observations because of the targets high speed). if you shot this way, you will have lots of eel wasting, thats for sure. by the way, the manual should be less acurate in mast heights etc, this would force the player to estimate. this would be more authentic. also tonnage should be estimated...

greetz, Jaeger

[Kapt Z]

You could probably reduce them but tis a trade of with gameplay and realism
Nobody would want to go out patrol after patrol and sink one or two ships
Or
None at all

I agree. I do wonder though if it would just be a matter of adding 'Realistic' contacts to the options menu???

I find that I always seem to find a ship or convoy when it is most inconvient(real world issue)! Hours of drifting around and then just as the wife calls out, "We need to go to the store!" I get the SHIP SIGHTED! message...!:damn:

[bigboywooly]

If anything its singles
No real data on those especially from neutral countries whom we know sailed as needed goods etc
Convoys are pretty well documented but can only be used in the Rnd as a repeating instance of the same convoy with timed spacings that can get as close as RL
Of course singles handled the same way

I think from SH3s POV its that sensors will always be better than they were and of course positioning is always spot on

Even with reduced map contacts the ones that are left are always accurately plotted whereas radio position reports from other uboats would have only been as good as their actual plotting and positioning was to start with
Then factor in your own position keeping to get to that position was no wonder many boats never found contacts they had info on

Thats where SH3 has the edge over RL
You always know where in the sea you and the contact is
Your sensors always work as were intended

[Graf Paper]

I try not to let these issues worry me. I enjoy SH3 immensely, regardless of the accuracy of history.

If you follow SOP, as laid down in the U-Boat Commander's Handbook, the target in your sights is worth more than the huge merchant you have yet to find. Kaleuns that held off from engaging a target because it was too small to be considered a worthy addition to their tonnage score usually would find themselves in a world of trouble from BdU.

Donitz wanted his commanders to be like aggressive attack dogs. :gulp:

Sink 'em all! :arrgh!:

[Nicolas]

I just want to say i discovered a new function to sh3contacts program, if you set x% of the single ships or convoy, to an spawn probality of -100 (the program will substract 100% to the prob. of that ship / convoy to appear. the problem is that gwx adds to the scripted campaign a lot of single ships (the tool only modifies the random campaign) but anyways it should empty the sea a lot.
if you want to try:
Single ships: 90%
% more spawn probability: -100
probability of report: must write somethig
minutes: must type something.
Check 'Write new values' single ships: YES checked.

[ppk]

I just started to play without the w/o... Well im still using him to identify stuff actually, but I'm working out the solutions myself. There are lots of wasted torpedoes in U-69 these days. I disabled duds to somewhat compensate.

Speaking sailboats...
I was in the big bay near Reykjavik, escaping after a successful raid. Still at 100%hull and with two torps left for the rear tube. Killed a light cruiser and an auxiliary cruiser. So on my way out I get the ''Ship Spotted - Short Range'' message from the tower. Weather was bad but seas were good enough to use the deck gun. Jump up there and I see some little puny sailboats coming at me. Man the deck gun ! Start shooting, and the sailboats started shooting back! I don't know what weapon they had but it took my hull effiency down to 39% in only a few blows and I was taking in lots of water. ... I carshed dive and I was pissed. Outgunned by a tourist in his sail boat!

Is it some sort of joke by the GWX team to have a trio of pirates with big guns that'll sink ships and roam the Atlantic? Yarr. :arrgh!:

[Murr44]

Aye RL Uboats didnt come across targets as often as we do in SH3
Target was a target whatever the tonnage



Exactly!:yep:

I cannot say for GWX, since my computer won't run it, but I see way too many targets.(most of the time!)

I still use the auto-TDC, which is WAY too reliable, so I usually fire off 2-3 torps into the sea at the beginning of a patrol to count as 'misses/malfunctions'. I also fire two torpedoes at anything more than 3000 tons. I know I can sink them with one, but I assume a real Kaleun would not know that. Therefore a good patrol is maybe 20,000 to 30,000 tons=4-7 ships.

Same here. I use GWX & I consider 30,000 tons in the Atlantic to be a very good patrol. Most Med patrols usually net me around 10,000-15,000 tons.

[Jaeger]

Hmm very good point, I didn't think of that. It's true that 90% of the single merchants that you catch in game thanks to the "radar-like RDF" reports would have passed unnoticed in real life, plus the fuzziness of distant convoy reports that we don't have in SH. I guess the only workaround would be playing realnav, ah well :lol:

wouldnt this inspirate the gwx team to integrate the real nav mod to gwx? this would give this beautiful mod public relations (more people would try to make it better, develop new methods etc). atm, it is a little bit inaccurate, but there is potential, i think. real nav would give sh3 a big step in realism and immersion i think.

greetz, Jaeger

[bigboywooly]

Anyway, something you can do is to delete the convoy and ship contact icons (make them transparent) so that all you will have is the grid and long/lat, that would be a bit more realistic.

Actaully thats not a bad idea at all Mikhayl

[Myxale]

Anyway, something you can do is to delete the convoy and ship contact icons (make them transparent) so that all you will have is the grid and long/lat, that would be a bit more realistic.
Actaully thats not a bad idea at all Mikhayl

I strongly agree! Everything that would be left, is the message that in PQXX a large convoy was sighted.

And since the PQxx is big, it would make things interesting :hmm:

I'm all game!

[Jimbuna]

Good idea matey http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Sailor Steve]

:yep: :rock:

Sounds like a realism winner to me.

[Brag]

Considering all facts and playability, incorporating navigation inaccuracy/doubt during periods when star or sun fixes are impossible would add to both playability and realism.

[jpm1]

a ship to sink whatever small it is can be a good way to raise the crew's morale up during a long patrol .

[Hanomag]

Realism?.... You want more realism...? :damn:

Maybe the game should simulate a "bathroom break" every six hours. You just lose control of your virtu-Kaluen and he walks to the head and stays in there for 15 minutes real time compression disabled.

Or how about a "fatigue" mod where your reaction time is slowed and the mouse arrow and controls move slower.

"Forced sleep" when your virtu-Kaluen gets tired he strolls down to the bunk and the screen blacks out for 6 hours real time compression again disabled.

Players must learn "dead reckoning" before the game even unlocks and you are allowed to play.

The game pauses and you decipher each enigma message b4 gameplay begins again.

Food runs out after random food cunsumtion calculator reaches zero food and patrol auto-ends.

Hell.. get rid of time compression altogether, its definitely not real.

I bet we can remove any element of fun left and completely ruin the game... and in case we all forget it is a game (I know I tend to, even in these ridiculously non realistic conditions). I believe if you want to buy this game, you have to go to the video game section of whatever store you happen to be in.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

As always, oozing with sarcasm,
Kptlt. Hanomag (not my real name)

[Jimbuna]

Realism?.... You want more realism...? :damn:

Maybe the game should simulate a "bathroom break" every six hours. You just lose control of your virtu-Kaluen and he walks to the head and stays in there for 15 minutes real time compression disabled.

Or how about a "fatigue" mod where your reaction time is slowed and the mouse arrow and controls move slower.

"Forced sleep" when your virtu-Kaluen gets tired he strolls down to the bunk and the screen blacks out for 6 hours real time compression again disabled.

Players must learn "dead reckoning" before the game even unlocks and you are allowed to play.

The game pauses and you decipher each enigma message b4 gameplay begins again.

Food runs out after random food cunsumtion calculator reaches zero food and patrol auto-ends.

Hell.. get rid of time compression altogether, its definitely not real.

I bet we can remove any element of fun left and completely ruin the game... and in case we all forget it is a game (I know I tend to, even in these ridiculously non realistic conditions). I believe if you want to buy this game, you have to go to the video game section of whatever store you happen to be in.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

As always, oozing with sarcasm,
Kptlt. Hanomag (not my real name)

http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img134/3995/newshy222ul3cg8.gif

[Hanomag]

http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img134/3995/newshy222ul3cg8.gif

LMAO.... :rotfl:

God help me....

[FIREWALL]

Aye RL Uboats didnt come across targets as often as we do in SH3
Target was a target whatever the tonnage

U 19 - 1 warship sunk for a total of 441 tons
U 24 - 5 warships sunk for a total of 571 tons
U 653 - 1 warship sunk for a total of 840 tons


What were they doing ? Takeing out a Yacht Club.:p :rotfl:

[bigboywooly]

Aye RL Uboats didnt come across targets as often as we do in SH3
Target was a target whatever the tonnage

U 19 - 1 warship sunk for a total of 441 tons
U 24 - 5 warships sunk for a total of 571 tons
U 653 - 1 warship sunk for a total of 840 tons

What were they doing ? Takeing out a Yacht Club.:p :rotfl:

Was a 1940s geordie booze cruise IIRC

[jpm1]

you want to increase realism just put some rocks at the bottom of the ocean that would be a first good step http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire1.gif my tone could appear a bit sarcastic but my admiration to Ubisoft Romania still remains intact http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif

[Hitman]

Back to the original topic :roll:

U-Boats in the Mediterranean did shoot at anything they found; targets were too scarce to save torpedoes, so they wasted them on fishing boats if necessary.

In turn, during the happy times torpedo saving was stringly favoured by aces like Otto Kretschmer, whose motto was "One torpedo, one ship"

Simply different reactions for very different situations, as was logic.

The official doctrine (U-Boat commanders Handbook) encouraged in 1943 to expend as many torpedos as necessary and "not hesitate in shooting salvoes as long as full target destruction was ensured. Better one sunk ship than two damaged ones!" Another paragraph also indicated that the commander must take whatever opportunity he has: "What you have, you have. Don't let torpedo saving considerations deter you from doing the most effective attack"

[Murr44]

"U-Boats in the Mediterranean did shoot at anything they found; targets were too scarce to save torpedoes, so they wasted them on fishing boats if necessary."

Very true. I've justed started another Mediterranean career (U-73, Oct. '41) & the merchant traffic is next to nothing compared to the Atlantic. What is there usually consists of one merchant accompanied by at least two escorts. I've been lucky so far though; in this first patrol I've managed to sink 4 merchants (3 escorted, 1 lone) for just over 22,000 tons. The first was a Empire-Type freighter that I crippled. I shot two torpedoes at her; 1 missed & the other slowed her down to a crawl. I had to wait until the escorts abandoned her to finish her off with a third shot. The 2nd was a large merchant. Again the same result (2 shots, 1 miss) & I had to wait around until she was ditched by her escort. Finished with a stern shot when the V&W was far enough away for me to escape. 3rd one was a Granville freighter that was really stubborn. She took 3 shots (1 missed because I misjudged her draft:damn: ) & still kept plugging along. Fortunately she had no escort so I surfaced (it was dark) & finished her with the deck gun. Last one was a Passenger/Cargo that I hit with one torpedo & sank with the deck gun. So I have 2 torpedoes left in the fore tubes & 1 or 2 in the stern. I'll be saving 1 of the stern torpedoes for the trip home in case I run into trouble.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, here's another one to blow your minds.

San Carlos, Spanish steam merchant, a measly 223 tons. Worth a torpedo, but they missed.

At 19.50 hours on 16 Dec, 1940, U-37 missed the San Carlos with one torpedo off Cape Juby and decided to attack the vessel at 20.00 hours from a distance of 800 metres with the deck gun and the 37mm AA gun, but the deck gun broke down after 21 shots. The 15 crew members and 13 passengers abandoned ship in two lifeboats, but one man was lost. The Germans rowed in a dinghi to the ship and placed scuttling charges on the vessel that later sank the ship. Doing so they noticed that the fired rounds had not been able to penetrate the 20cm strong wooden hull of the ship.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/722.html

I think the deck guns need to be stronger.:rotfl: :dead:

[jpm1]

it would be amazing to know the wood name and to have more info on the shipyard which built the boat ...

[Hitman]

Well if they were so desperated to even try to sink a 223 tons merchant I understand they didn't mind it was neutral or even half-allied (Spanish) :lol:

[Sailor Steve]

Yeah, I've found a bunch of those. Some of them were accidents, the boat being way out of bounds for a semi-friendly, but many of them were carrying contraband supplies for the Allies...or at least the u-boat kaleun claimed they were.:shifty:

[Lzs von swe]

Well, as for neutrals, many Swedish ships were sunk by U-boats. And in the Ost See they were hunted by Russia, for carrying iron ore to Germany.

More on topic, I fire 2, or more, torpedoes at any target. One may be a dud:hmm:
Realistic or not, I will rather waste a torpedo then have to stay in the area, waiting for the ship to sink.