View Full Version : The US car industry
Kay, folks, that's a topic I've been following quite a bit lately. I know the US car giants GM, Ford and Chrysler are overblown monsters, unprofitable, with cars not fitting into a world of dwindling oil reserves and climate change. Oddly enough in a country like the US there are unions that powerful making the life of these automobile makers pure hell. The cars also lack cutting edge technology by a fair shot, especially in engine development, though that appears to change atm. Too little, too late, though.
Nevertheless, on a personal level, I've always been quite fascinated by US cars. Big, powerful, raw. And as stupid the new muscle cars are from every POV common sense provides...darn, they are hot! I love these brutes with a passion. Were ressource conditions not what they are, I'd buy a new Challenger in a heartbeat! The chemics just fit.
GM declared without government help they won't survive this winter. But even with this help the problems probably are too big to save them. Pensions, a lacking model palette and lacking high techology these cars are simply 10 years behind their time.
When I was in the US last time two years ago, I got myself a Cadillac CTS to drive around. Great car on first glance, good acceleration ad lacking these übersoft suspensions typical of older cars I really grew to hate, but when I dropped a CD during unpacking, got down to get it from under the drivers seat...there were cables whereever you looked. It made the impression of beeing only half finsihed, with cables just hanging around freely. Like a childrens room where al the playtools are just shoved under the bed.
Selling by GM broke by 45 percent just this year. They lack any basis of beeing competetive in todays world. 100.000 to 200.000 would have to be fired by GM alone just to get back a healthy company size=profit relationship, something US unions are obviously unable to accept, not to talk about all the hard working ppl, some of them beeing in the company for the second or third generation.
What is to be done about this? I personally do not want to see the american car industry go down. They perfected the manufactoring of a german invention, produced countless classics and still have a reputation. Maybe I am just nostalgic, I already considered the downfall of the british car industry a great loss, but maybe dinosaurs are just bound to go extinct someday.
What is your opinion on that? What is a realistic way to solve this problem. And can it be helped at all? Are there any new upstart car companies giving some hope on the horizone?
Zachstar
11-14-08, 05:36 AM
There is only one chance for GM or Ford to survive.
Abandon Fossil fuel based cars RIGHT now.
Now of course that means disaster for the work force but it does 2 things.
#1 Even tho I am in a Union. The crap UAW have managed to get in the contract is beyond reason. Thus the workers often have to face 1 week on 1 week off situations now. So it gives the makers power to start rolling back the crazed perks. If the workers do not like it? Leave. They can move to right to work states if needed.
#2 It saves our ass in the long run.. let me explain this further.
No matter how many times they say "Drill Baby Drill" There simply isn't enough equipment to online enough fields in enough time to cope with demand. Thus gas will never go back to the glory days where filling your tank with 1 USD unleaded to go cruising on a V8.
Also the middle east will never seriously allow us to drive oil down with supply. They want it back to 100 USD.
The only way out of this mess is to use whatever energy WE make. And because cars cant burn coal. The only way forward is electric.
Battery: 10-20 advancements ready for infusions to be commercialized. Some almost quad performance of Li-ion
Solar: 75+ Advancements ready to churn out power.
Coal: Well tons of it and it can be burned a tad cleaner.
-------------------------
Yet, I do not see this happening. Ford and GM are dinos and no amount of backing will save their asses if they do not go electric.
Kay, folks, that's a topic I've been following quite a bit lately. I know the US car giants GM, Ford and Chrysler are overblown monsters, unprofitable, with cars not fitting into a world of dwindling oil reserves and climate change. Oddly enough in a country like the US there are unions that powerful making the life of these automobile makers pure hell. The cars also lack cutting edge technology by a fair shot, especially in engine development, though that appears to change atm. Too little, too late, though.
Nevertheless, on a personal level, I've always been quite fascinated by US cars. Big, powerful, raw. And as stupid the new muscle cars are from every POV common sense provides...darn, they are hot! I love these brutes with a passion. Were ressource conditions not what they are, I'd buy a new Challenger in a heartbeat! The chemics just fit.
GM declared without government help they won't survive this winter. But even with this help the problems probably are too big to save them. Pensions, a lacking model palette and lacking high techology these cars are simply 10 years behind their time.
When I was in the US last time two years ago, I got myself a Cadillac CTS to drive around. Great car on first glance, good acceleration ad lackign these übersoft suspension typical of older cars I really grew to hate, but when I dropped a CD during unpacking, got down to get it from under the drivers seat...there were cables whereever you looked. It made the impression of beeing only half finsihed, with cables just hanging around freely.
Selling by GM broke by 45 percent just this year. They lack any basis of beeing competetive in todays world. 100.000 to 200.000 would have to be fires by GM alone just to get back a healthy company size=profit relationship, something US unions are obviously unable to accept.
What is to be done about this? I personally do not want to see the american car industry go down. They perfected the manufactoring of a german invention, produced countless classics and still have a reputation. Maybe I am just nostalgic, I already considered the downfall of the british car industry a great loss, but maybe dinosaurs are just bound to go extinct someday.
What is your opinion on that? What is a realistic way to solve this problem. And can it be helped at all? Are there any new upstart car companies giving some hope on the horizone?
concurrence makes that your have low prices , concurrence makes that your have efficient stuff at low price and concurrence can even make your to have some gratis stuff . even if i'm european and that it makes me a little happy each time a european company takes a contract to an american company it's in the interest of nobody to live in a world where concurrence's absent . I have something you may like just let me the time to upload it
Note : i'm also happy when a european company takes a contract to a singaporian company or to a japanese company or to a russian company ..
Absolutely agreed, these failure of the GM, Ford and Chrylser managements began with the start of japanese imports into the country. Instead of fighting these with new models and technology these companies simply switched to big and heavy. I suppose they took their dominant role in the car business on the US continent as a natural given. American cars beeing majorly unsucessful anywhere else should have been a sign. That is the price they has to pay for their arrogance.
But despite these failure of it's management, as it is observable on so many levels, it's the core that matters. These are not just simply big companies..it's companies that provide hundrets of thousand ppl with a job and an identification. With a history and a legacy. With a lot of emotions. These compaies represent the US like maybe only Coca Cola does. Their downfall is more then the bankruptcy of a company, it's the downfall of a way of living. And it's not just the big companies themselves..there are even more jobs in jeapoardy, especially all the subcontractors.
Essentially, a whole and majorly important branch of the US industry is about to completly collaps, and with it ends an era.
CaptainHaplo
11-14-08, 07:30 AM
What SHOULD happen is that one of the "Big 3" dies. This would accomplish 2 things. First it would provide additional business for the remaining companies (and imports) as the buyers look to purchase. Second, it will shock the other 2 into a frenzy - modernizing their structure and processes, while shaking their design philosophy.
In a true capitalistic system, this is what would happen. You adapt or you die. Its a harsh reality.
Unfortunately - the government - now run heavily by the left - who counts on the support of almost all the unions, will subsidize the Big 3 and let them continue in the non-successful business model they have been using for decades. They politically cannot allow such a huge group of supporting voters to take it on the chin.
Until it is realized that its not the governments job to bail out banks, car makers, airlines and people who buy houses they can't afford, there is no true recovery from our economic woes. Do not get me wrong - the republicans are as guilty in this as the left - because they continued the subsidizing for many years as well.
What SHOULD happen is that one of the "Big 3" dies. This would accomplish 2 things. First it would provide additional business for the remaining companies (and imports) as the buyers look to purchase. Second, it will shock the other 2 into a frenzy - modernizing their structure and processes, while shaking their design philosophy.
In a true capitalistic system, this is what would happen. You adapt or you die. Its a harsh reality.
Unfortunately - the government - now run heavily by the left - who counts on the support of almost all the unions, will subsidize the Big 3 and let them continue in the non-successful business model they have been using for decades. They politically cannot allow such a huge group of supporting voters to take it on the chin.
Until it is realized that its not the governments job to bail out banks, car makers, airlines and people who buy houses they can't afford, there is no true recovery from our economic woes. Do not get me wrong - the republicans are as guilty in this as the left - because they continued the subsidizing for many years as well.
Though I aree to you in general re companny mistakes and their consequent bankrupcy, I think the problem is a bit more complicated in this case, simply to the sheer size of GM. Because the folks that have to face the consequences of mismanagement are not those responsible for the missed opportunities, the management, but the workers. And 200.000 thousand ppl losing their job just so will have a huge impact on the economy. It's not only that 200.000 ppl will lose their jobs, but with them the US economy will also lose tax payers and consumers, thus making life harder for other companies, the government and thus ultimately, all the ppl in a country. The question is what's coming more expensive in the long run...saving GM or having to deal with the results of a collapse. The same reasoning was behind the bank bailouts. The long term effects on the economy could be much much harsher then without government intervention.
Then again it has to be considered if a bailout would save GM..or just prolong the inevitable.
The problem also is that the other 2 are not in a much better shape, really.
Catfish
11-14-08, 08:13 AM
Hello,
i also like the older US cars, they have a style of its own, indeed they are the inventors of styling. I also like the British classic cars, and still own a small '69 Triumph Spit Mk3 which b.t.w. needs much less fuel than a "modern" car with its failing electronics. But then it has only covered 260.000 miles, and a new VW will certainly last longer (this is a JOKE, b.t.w.). Has anyone calculated the energy balance of a new produced car ? The german Porsche Cayenne needs some 40-70 liters per 100 km, but it is an ecological car with its new catalytic converter. Ask our government.
There is no doubt that human behaviour has something to do with the world's changing climate, but even without that it is quite idiotic to BURN coal, and especially oil. Oil is a good resource for plastic parts of all kinds, and the medical industry.
But what really strikes me is this idiotic peak oil theory probably made up by the large companies. I still think this was made up to raise oil prices beyond any "natural" barrier. As a geologist and having worked quite a bit about and with oil i can say there is no end of resources in sight - you will maybe not find mega fields in Houston, and Iraq anymore, but there's still some more to explore in the rest if the world (Siberiy, chinese continental shelf and a lot of otheres, certainly without direct US control). The prices are - apart from the taxes applied - much too high. Oil is traded as a rare substance, which it is not. The price is completely artificial. Seems capitalism is eating itself up here without a real competition. There was competition in earlier times, at least seven big companies trying to outdo themselves. Now there are four left, but they talk to another. A cartel, no competition, and nothing to do with free market economy.
We should certainly develop other fuels or energy concepts, for draining the world's batteries and producing CO2 is not really clever, but selling oil at high prices because it is artificially made "rare" ? Next they will sell you salt water, and limestone while you are sitting on an island of limestone.
Greetings,
Catfish
The principle behind peak oil is not just reserves in total, but also accesibility, refinary ressources and demand.
1. First of all, there is an absolute amount of oil still left. It's not "refilled". So no matter what, it "will" run out eventually, maybe sooner, maybe later. There is nothing going around this at all. How much left is another question.
2. What is more important though when does it become profitable to explore those oilfields that are harder to come by, when does it make sense to work with oil sands and comparable ressources. When it comes to these measure, yes, we will have oil for a couple more decades to come, but it will get more and more expensive for the simple reasons that ressources to get to that oil is becoming more expensive. The arctic and some other regions may still house some suprises to be discovered, but it just prolongs the ineviteable.
3. China, India and a lot more countries reach higher and higher industrial levels and such higher and higher demand. This means that even if we find more ressources, and are able to maintin and even raise oil production, it still means it will become more expensive as demand will for sure be higher. We'd have to discover, explore and invest in huge areas to keep the odds even. Given that since the 80ies no new and easily acessible major oilfield was discovered, I doubt that will happen.
4. The last couple years, also due to raising oil prices, the oil industry completly neglected refinery capacity and missed investments into the infrastructure. Hurricane katarina amplified that problem in the US. The lack of these capacities means, that even if more oil is found and it's possible to get it, there won't be enough ressources to make it into useable gas ann other products. Rebuilding and investing would take at least a decade before they could go into production. Given the fragile future of the whole oil market, making these investments is a high risk.
5. Interestingly enough the peak oil theory was always fought by the companies, never advertised. Cuz that would have ment, in it's logical conclusion, that alternative energy ressources would have to be found. oil companies are not stupid. They know that asking for higher prices has to stop somewhere, else they will lose their profit because folks will develop something else for the energy problem. I dare to say, had the industry come up with this theory themselves, earlier, we'd not have the problems right now. So it's not reasonable to assume it was this industry inventing peak oil. Thse guys certainly want to prevent any altrnatives as long they can milk the cow, which is understandable in my book.
subchaser12
11-14-08, 09:49 AM
These big companies love to chant "let the market work things out". Ok then, let's do exatly that. Let's let the market solve it shall we? Oh but when it's their butt in the fire all of a sudden they want a socialist fix. Imagine that.
The US auto market brought this on itself. Even before the gas crunch like 5 years ago there was a year and a half wait on a hybrid. Mind you this was before 4$ gallons on gas. What did the US auto industry give us? New hummers and crap like that. Sorry people, but I am sick of seeing soccer moms driving tanks to go to starbucks. Even the names are asinine. The excursion, expedition, the armada. I mean what next? The invasion, the task force, the inquisition. Pfft, let em burn, at least it will be easier to park my normal car.
I'm 6 feet tall and 245, I drive a little car, I don't need a big auto to feel macho.
FIREWALL
11-14-08, 10:13 AM
What SHOULD happen is that one of the "Big 3" dies. This would accomplish 2 things. First it would provide additional business for the remaining companies (and imports) as the buyers look to purchase. Second, it will shock the other 2 into a frenzy - modernizing their structure and processes, while shaking their design philosophy.
In a true capitalistic system, this is what would happen. You adapt or you die. Its a harsh reality.
Unfortunately - the government - now run heavily by the left - who counts on the support of almost all the unions, will subsidize the Big 3 and let them continue in the non-successful business model they have been using for decades. They politically cannot allow such a huge group of supporting voters to take it on the chin.
Until it is realized that its not the governments job to bail out banks, car makers, airlines and people who buy houses they can't afford, there is no true recovery from our economic woes. Do not get me wrong - the republicans are as guilty in this as the left - because they continued the subsidizing for many years as well.
That about sums it up.:yep: Good insight Capt. H :up:
I beleive well thought out Change is not to be Feared.
Instead it welcomes in a new Era.
AVGWarhawk
11-14-08, 11:42 AM
Do the math, for every car GM produces, $1500.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. For every car Toyota produces, $100.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. So, what is GM doing wrong? UAW. The union has driven these big three into the ground. At one time, unions were needed. They are now a thing of the past but still drain the pockets of the very company that pays their way. Personally, they should be left to fail. History shows that something better comes along to fill the void. We would be throwing good money after bad in this instance.
Do the math, for every car GM produces, $1500.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. For every car Toyota produces, $100.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. So, what is GM doing wrong? UAW. The union has driven these big three into the ground. At one time, unions were needed. They are now a thing of the past but still drain the pockets of the very company that pays their way. Personally, they should be left to fail. History shows that something better comes along to fill the void. We would be throwing good money after bad in this instance.
That is the problem with american style unions which, interestingly enough, follow the principles of capitalism. Work is a product that has to be sold, as expensive as possible. As that it follows the same offer and demand principles as the rest of the US economy. Another part of the problem is that in the US, the companies are responsible for providing these services to their workforce, while in Europe it's mostly the countrys duty. And as with any product, the broader the mass, the cheaper it gets. The same applies to Japan, btw.
Unions over here also are not as rigid as american unions. The heck, once when I was in an american supermarket buying some meat to cook for the family I visited, the clerk did not want to cut it for me. He had to wait for his boss. Asking why he did not want to do such a simple task anyways I refered to union rules. I was dazzled, given that I thought that union power was much less of what it is in Europe...in fact, it is the opposite.
That aside, the union problems, though very real, are not the cause of the troubles, they just make them worse. The big 3 simply did not react to the growing asian and european competition and dug into their "bigger is better" credo, despite ompletly reversed world trends. That simple. Their own fault, as much they like it to blame others.
subchaser12
11-14-08, 12:15 PM
Do the math, for every car GM produces, $1500.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. For every car Toyota produces, $100.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. So, what is GM doing wrong? UAW. The union has driven these big three into the ground. At one time, unions were needed. They are now a thing of the past but still drain the pockets of the very company that pays their way. Personally, they should be left to fail. History shows that something better comes along to fill the void. We would be throwing good money after bad in this instance.
Good points, but something has to give here. You don't want companies to pay employees so much and provide healthcare, retirement etc. Ok, that is understandable. Then you don't want the government to pick up the tab because that would be communism or welfare. Ok, the companies want to bring in cheap Mexican labor; then the same people who are anti-union, anti-welfare then become anti-immigrant. You can't have it all is what I am trying to say.
What's it going to be? Have companies pay employees benefits? Let the government pay it? Bring in Mexican labor and just send the expensive white people home unemployed? You have to pick and choose, you can't have it all. American's won't be slaves. Mexicans will for a little while, then they will want more of the pie.
FIREWALL
11-14-08, 12:26 PM
Only good US car built in the last decade is the Saturn imo.
... and dug into their "bigger is better" credo, despite ompletly reversed world trends. That simple. Their own fault, as much they like it to blame others.
Toyota Tundra
Mercedes D class
Nissan Titan
American car manufacturers aren't the only ones to do this.
OneToughHerring
11-14-08, 12:39 PM
These compaies represent the US like maybe only Coca Cola does. Their downfall is more then the bankruptcy of a company, it's the downfall of a way of living.
You're absolutely right there, it kinda reminds me of the Matrix with the 'system' being seen for the first time. The image is what the US auto industry has relied on quite strongly and when that image goes the industry will suffer. Ford has been trying to revive the Mustang, a car I like but don't think it'll be enough to save them.
Same goes for Coca-Cola too, a company built on a brand. When the image goes the brand dies and the whole house of cards will come down. Or maybe Coca-Cola won't go belly up, it's such a permanent fixture of the world, a global brand that'll stick around at least for now.
... and dug into their "bigger is better" credo, despite ompletly reversed world trends. That simple. Their own fault, as much they like it to blame others.
Toyota Tundra
Mercedes D class
Nissan Titan
American car manufacturers aren't the only ones to do this.
You are quite correct. But they are the only ones solely concentrating their efforts on this segment. Name me one top of the line, competetive, sucessful US middle class Sedan. I personally loved the Chrysler 300M when it came out, just for looks. Lot's of potential at least stylewise again. Finally cars that at least "look" cool and american. But the technology simply is not up to date.
AVGWarhawk
11-14-08, 12:50 PM
Do the math, for every car GM produces, $1500.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. For every car Toyota produces, $100.00 of that car sale is for health insurance and retirement. So, what is GM doing wrong? UAW. The union has driven these big three into the ground. At one time, unions were needed. They are now a thing of the past but still drain the pockets of the very company that pays their way. Personally, they should be left to fail. History shows that something better comes along to fill the void. We would be throwing good money after bad in this instance.
Good points, but something has to give here. You don't want companies to pay employees so much and provide healthcare, retirement etc. Ok, that is understandable. Then you don't want the government to pick up the tab because that would be communism or welfare. Ok, the companies want to bring in cheap Mexican labor; then the same people who are anti-union, anti-welfare then become anti-immigrant. You can't have it all is what I am trying to say.
What's it going to be? Have companies pay employees benefits? Let the government pay it? Bring in Mexican labor and just send the expensive white people home unemployed? You have to pick and choose, you can't have it all. American's won't be slaves. Mexicans will for a little while, then they will want more of the pie.
Sure something has to give here...the union has to give. They have put the automakers in a proverbial head-lock. Let strike for bigger pools and long vacations, etc. Toyota provides excellent healthcare and retirement to the plant workers in the south. There is no union crushing the very life out of the company. There is no cheap Mexican labor here on our soil for the auto industry. Most if not all parts are made in Mexico or Canada! They have their piece of the pie. The Toyota model of manufacturing works and for the good of all in the company. The company does not have expensive white people. They provide pay that is up to the standard of living in the area the workers live. Detroit has been run by the union for eons. Time for them to go.
AVGWarhawk
11-14-08, 12:58 PM
... and dug into their "bigger is better" credo, despite ompletly reversed world trends. That simple. Their own fault, as much they like it to blame others.
Toyota Tundra
Mercedes D class
Nissan Titan
American car manufacturers aren't the only ones to do this.
You are quite correct. But they are the only ones solely concentrating their efforts on this segment. Name me one top of the line, competetive, sucessful US middle class Sedan. I personally loved the Chrysler 300M when it came out, just for looks. Lot's of potential at least stylewise again. Finally cars that at least "look" cool and american. But the technology simply is not up to date.
It is not even the matter of big sedans, etc. It is the fact that Toyota, Nissan build very dependable cars. The last GM product I purchased was a new Monte Carlo in 1988. It was the biggest POS I ever bought and will never purchase a GM product again. However, I have two Ford products that are just wonderful and a Dodge product that is just wonderful. People look at quality as well as looks. I think the quality of Ford is just fine as I have had good luck with them. Same with Dodge. As far as technology, yes, the Japanese have an upper hand. The issue is GM and Ford were provided the opportunity to get the upper hand with billions given months ago. They have nothing to show for it. Not a great way of getting more money. The Dems will pass this bill. Too many subsidiaries that supply parts will go under as well. So this is all mute anyway. The big three need to get on the stick this time.
... and dug into their "bigger is better" credo, despite ompletly reversed world trends. That simple. Their own fault, as much they like it to blame others.
Toyota Tundra
Mercedes D class
Nissan Titan
American car manufacturers aren't the only ones to do this.
You are quite correct. But they are the only ones solely concentrating their efforts on this segment. Name me one top of the line, competetive, sucessful US middle class Sedan. I personally loved the Chrysler 300M when it came out, just for looks. Lot's of potential at least stylewise again. Finally cars that at least "look" cool and american. But the technology simply is not up to date.
It is not even the matter of big sedans, etc. It is the fact that Toyota, Nissan build very dependable cars. The last GM product I purchased was a new Monte Carlo in 1988. It was the biggest POS I ever bought and will never purchase a GM product again. However, I have two Ford products that are just wonderful and a Dodge product that is just wonderful. People look at quality as well as looks. I think the quality of Ford is just fine as I have had good luck with them. Same with Dodge. As far as technology, yes, the Japanese have an upper hand. The issue is GM and Ford were provided the opportunity to get the upper hand with billions given months ago. They have nothing to show for it. Not a great way of getting more money. The Dems will pass this bill. Too many subsidiaries that supply parts will go under as well. So this is all mute anyway. The big three need to get on the stick this time.
*nods* you are probably right. It still is a pity.
subchaser12
11-14-08, 01:09 PM
Remember that the government bailed GM out once in 1979. There was a big gas crisis that makes our recent troubles look like nothing. What did GM do to itself to bring on the 1979 bailout? They made huge hooptie gas guzzlers. The same thing they did this time. When people wanted hybrids what did they give us? Hummers that got 10 miles to the gallon. After the free market threatens to put them in the grave again, they want more money? They did not learn their lesson in 1979 obviously. Why bail them out again? So they can just run things into the ground and let the tax payers foot the bill? Where is the incentive to run a good business? I would run my business sloppy if I knew the governement would bail me out.
As for unions, well they aren't the problem in my opinion. Sure, you could pay them all minimum wage. That would be good for business. However everytime the republicans let corporations take a huge steamy dump on the voters under the banner of "deregulation" we get a democratic president. Clinton came into power under a bad economy, so did Obama. Destroying the workers lives for corporate profit isn't a viable solution.
AVGWarhawk
11-14-08, 01:52 PM
Remember that the government bailed GM out once in 1979. There was a big gas crisis that makes our recent troubles look like nothing. What did GM do to itself to bring on the 1979 bailout? They made huge hooptie gas guzzlers. The same thing they did this time. When people wanted hybrids what did they give us? Hummers that got 10 miles to the gallon. After the free market threatens to put them in the grave again, they want more money? They did not learn their lesson in 1979 obviously. Why bail them out again? So they can just run things into the ground and let the tax payers foot the bill? Where is the incentive to run a good business? I would run my business sloppy if I knew the governement would bail me out.
As for unions, well they aren't the problem in my opinion. Sure, you could pay them all minimum wage. That would be good for business. However everytime the republicans let corporations take a huge steamy dump on the voters under the banner of "deregulation" we get a democratic president. Clinton came into power under a bad economy, so did Obama. Destroying the workers lives for corporate profit isn't a viable solution.
You are correct in your first paragraph which is my point, more good money after bad. Like I posted a few back, GM was given billions to make a car with new energy saving tech....we got nothing. So, screw the bail out. As far as the union, I have seen more unions break a company then make a company. 'nough said. How are we destroying workers lives at the plants? They have more benefits than I have fingers. They have a pay scale far and above a lot of American yet these people out side of the plant scrimping by are to pay for $41000.00 vehicles? Just like me! So, tell me, how many hybrid Toyotas are really out there to choose from? It ain't about hybrids. It is about looks and quality. GM has ugly cars and the quality stopped around 1973. GM has the hybrids and gas sippers like the Cavalier...they are just ugly and not very dependable. Poor quality with dog butt ugly looks=lost business.
Monica Lewinsky
11-14-08, 07:20 PM
So, screw the bail out. As far as the union, I have seen more unions break a company then make a company.
Gentlemen:
I do not advocate the bailout. That said, they [GM] goes belly up and worse yet the suppliers to GM fall with that too [domino effect] promptly.
That means looking in the "BIG" picture 1 or 2 Americans no longer have a job from the ripple effect over TIME ... not over night, just over a period of time. Pay now, or pay later - which one you want?
These endless RANTS of who is at fault, and they should have had an electric car/vehicle will NOT solve the problem overnight.
I have two credit cards. Neither one EVER had a balance due that I could not meet over 25+ years and if, I came short to make ends meet, I owed the company less than $1,000 bucks - happened two or three times and I paid off my debt the next month - happens to all of us.
That said, TOO MANY people live day-by-day high off the hog of owing money and it has caught up with us - the MILLIONS of people living financially beyond their means is SICKENING [credit cards, 2nd mortgage, home equity loans, etc].
Glad to see it happen, but those folks that have lived for years not paying down their debt are killing ALL of us now.
I have less than 4 years to pay off my house with payments around $250/month and I watch it's value go down the tubes - like all of us.
Stop living high off the hog, financially speaking.
$PAY$ your bills.
... and dug into their "bigger is better" credo, despite ompletly reversed world trends. That simple. Their own fault, as much they like it to blame others.
Toyota Tundra
Mercedes D class
Nissan Titan
American car manufacturers aren't the only ones to do this.
You are quite correct. But they are the only ones solely concentrating their efforts on this segment. Name me one top of the line, competetive, sucessful US middle class Sedan. I personally loved the Chrysler 300M when it came out, just for looks. Lot's of potential at least stylewise again. Finally cars that at least "look" cool and american. But the technology simply is not up to date.
It is not even the matter of big sedans, etc. It is the fact that Toyota, Nissan build very dependable cars. The last GM product I purchased was a new Monte Carlo in 1988. It was the biggest POS I ever bought and will never purchase a GM product again. However, I have two Ford products that are just wonderful and a Dodge product that is just wonderful. People look at quality as well as looks. I think the quality of Ford is just fine as I have had good luck with them. Same with Dodge. As far as technology, yes, the Japanese have an upper hand. The issue is GM and Ford were provided the opportunity to get the upper hand with billions given months ago. They have nothing to show for it. Not a great way of getting more money. The Dems will pass this bill. Too many subsidiaries that supply parts will go under as well. So this is all mute anyway. The big three need to get on the stick this time.
To both of you guys: (Bewolf i assume you mean mid size sedan?)
The last GM product I had was a 1996 Buick Century. I put 300 thousand miles on it over a period of 4 years with very little maintenance. Nothing flashy but certainly a very dependable vehicle.
MothBalls
11-14-08, 09:04 PM
The main problem with this issue is timing.
Right now is a bad time to let any big companies fail. From what I've read 1 out of 10 jobs in America would suffer if the big three go down. (I don't know that for a fact because I'm just not that smart.)
It's not just the manufacturing plant and the people building the car. All the way from the guys who mine the ore to make the metal, the steel mills, the tire makers, all the suppliers for all of the different components, the dealership and beyond, those peoples jobs would also be in danger
If I was "the decider" sitting there with my thumb up my arse right now, and someone told me we need 25b dollars so 10% of Americans don't lose their jobs of the next six months, I'd write the damn check, quickly.
It should not be up to the people or government to have to bail out companies [in any sector] because they made bad decisions.
I do agree that it's the companies that made mistakes that eventually contributed to the situation. If they could each make at least one car with the gas mileage and quality of a Honda or Toyota then there wouldn't be as much of a problem (maybe).
I agree that the unions are a big ball and chain dragging them down making them less competitive. Still it's no excuse for the other problems they could solve.
The car companies are in part suffering because of the economic crisis and the overall state of the economy. It's this reason and the 10% of the jobs, I say help them out for now. Make it a loan. Make them pay it back in cars if they have to.
One other thing I'd add to the check. Cash this and you agree that no one person in your company can receive compensation above $255,000 year. Why 255? So they can reap the rewards of Obama's new tax plan. :)
Side note: Place part of the blame with the American car buyer as well. Drive down any US highway today and what do you see. SUV's, pickups, crossovers, huge gas guzzlers, and a few Japanese hybrids.
There's people there driving 4x4 4door longbed pickups to work every day. The only time the truck sees any offroad activity is when someone backs over the planter while leaving the driveway. In part, we did this to ourselves. If we didn't buy the big piles of crap, they wouldn't make them.
There's people there driving 4x4 4door longbed pickups to work every day. The only time the truck sees any offroad activity is when someone backs over the planter while leaving the driveway. In part, we did this to ourselves. If we didn't buy the big piles of crap, they wouldn't make them.
I agree with you about trucks when it comes to city dwellers and even most suburbanites, but for country folks it's a very different story. Trucks are almost mandatory. Even I find that my old dodge pickup is so useful as a general hauler up at my place in Maine that i've kept it on the road as a 2nd vehicle. Whether its hauling firewood or trash or building materials, none of that could be done in the glorified rollerskates that the social engineers want to shoe horn us all into.
subchaser12
11-15-08, 12:12 AM
I don't think it's a hybrid or SUV issue. Honestly I think everyone who wants what they are making has one. The market is flooded and I don't think the demand is there like it used to be. My car is older, so what? The market just doesn't need 100,000 new cars every 24 hours.
Captain Vlad
11-15-08, 12:33 AM
I had a Toyota Camry once. When a lady in a white Acura killed it, there were 397,000 miles on the odometer. The only issues I had with the vehicle were front end problems that would not have occurred had I not been an invincible teenager, and the alternator went out.
After her demise, I acquired a Ford of equal age that had undergone much more extensive maintenance and had been driven very conservatively. There were around 97,000 miles on it. I had it less than a year when the transmission just up and quit working.
I then bought a 2000 Toyota Tundra V8. 90,000 miles on it. 157,000 now. Only problem? A loose throttle sensor cable, and better gas mileage than the V6 Ford (due to the Fords degredation).
My experiences with Dodges has been similar, though second hand and more limited than my experiences with Fords. Chevy's I've heard tend to be a bit more reliable. I've rarely hard anything bad about a Toyota or Honda, and personal experience with both backs up every good thing I've heard second hand.
If US car makers cannot give me a vehicle equal to the one I now own, I will not buy a vehicle from them. Why would I? Patriotism? Sorry, this patriot likes his car to start when he turns the key so that he can continue earning an Uncle Sam-taxed paycheck.
Oh, August is quite right about the necessity of a truck (or an El Camino:D) in rural areas.
here i had to search the cardboard boxes but i found it gallery 1 (http://picasaweb.google.com/jpmarchetti/Cars1#) gallery 2 (http://picasaweb.google.com/jpmarchetti/Cars2#) .
personnally i think that the governments shouldn't interfere with the economy by injecting founds i mean when you create a company in a capitalism system you know that bankrupcy's part of the game if the country interfere this way then we'll never know if capitalism's a good thing or not ; a country wants to become the owner of a company or a shareholder no problem but giving founds like we see it actually it's cautioning the thoughtless risk-taking
on that i'm gonna take my (ecological) scooter head to the closest supermarket and buy myself ingredients to make me fresh nice hamburgers http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/bien.gif
@August: yes, mid size sedan is what I wanted to express. Freud obviously got the better of me. Thanks for bringing this up.
@jpm: there are some true classics amongst these cars!
Which brings me to another question, capitalistic system or not, but would american pride actually allow the loss of it's domestic car industry? AFAIK US cars are one of the great symbols of the US. Losing these could become very bitter. How is that seen?
Konovalov
11-15-08, 08:46 AM
So, screw the bail out. As far as the union, I have seen more unions break a company then make a company.
Gentlemen:
I do not advocate the bailout. That said, they [GM] goes belly up and worse yet the suppliers to GM fall with that too [domino effect] promptly.
That means looking in the "BIG" picture 1 or 2 Americans no longer have a job from the ripple effect over TIME ... not over night, just over a period of time. Pay now, or pay later - which one you want?
These endless RANTS of who is at fault, and they should have had an electric car/vehicle will NOT solve the problem overnight.
I have two credit cards. Neither one EVER had a balance due that I could not meet over 25+ years and if, I came short to make ends meet, I owed the company less than $1,000 bucks - happened two or three times and I paid off my debt the next month - happens to all of us.
That said, TOO MANY people live day-by-day high off the hog of owing money and it has caught up with us - the MILLIONS of people living financially beyond their means is SICKENING [credit cards, 2nd mortgage, home equity loans, etc].
Glad to see it happen, but those folks that have lived for years not paying down their debt are killing ALL of us now.
I have less than 4 years to pay off my house with payments around $250/month and I watch it's value go down the tubes - like all of us.
Stop living high off the hog, financially speaking.
$PAY$ your bills.
Excellent post Monica Lewinsky. :up: Fully share your sentiments. :yep:
Can I just call you Monica? ;)
Can I just call you Monica? ;)
Only if you buy him flowers and dinner first...
CaptainHaplo
11-15-08, 12:50 PM
OK - this idea that letting one of the big 3 die would cause a ripple effect that would destroy the economy - is bullocks. Yes - there would be some effect - but lets examine things here shall we? We will use GM as the example.
Option 1 - bail em out - again....
How many Billions of tax dollars are taken out of the hands of the working people to shore up a failing business? Doing so robs the working class to pay for the errors of the powerful. Ok - so some people whose efforts right now are focused on producing a product that the market really doesnt want - will get the opportunity to continue doing things the same way for the same result. You do know insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? But hey - they and the suppliers and everyone else get to keep their jobs for a while still right? At least until the next bailout is due..... What does all that money - that you or I would have been able to use for the things we need - now its not in the economy any more - what effect does that have? Less business transactions, less spending - the bottom and "recession" deepens.
Option 2 - let em fail...
They fail - employees are let go - suppliers see there customer dissolve. Now what? Well - wait a minute - now there are GM customers who still need parts - so the suppliers are going to have some customers still. The new car buyers now have less "choice" - but since the ones who would have bought GM cars can't - more business for the other car companies. Something the other 2 companies could take advantage of..... Those same suppliers are going to transition from GM supplies and will start competing to provide parts to the other 2 companies. Competition reduces prices - which is good for the consumer.... Now - what about the skilled employees that are out of jobs? Well, with an increase in demand for other brands, increased demand means ramped up production - so many would be able to use their existing skills to ramp into a position with another producer. No, I don't pretend ALL of them would find jobs in the same industry.
Ok - we have taken care of the supplier, the worker - who is left? Oh yea, the executive bigwigs who ran the joint into the ground with their stupidity. Hmmmm - I don't forsee them being asked to take over another big manufacturer due to their history of failure. Seems the only "losers" here are the ones that SHOULD HAVE LOST in the first place. And all without costing you or me or anyone else an extra dime.
Which option works better?????
*Note - instead of bailouts - lets make it more attractive for companies that produce quality goods - like vehicles - to make them here - more american jobs and they don't have to pay to ship the things from china or wherever else. Who cares if it says Toyota - if it was made in Oklahoma?????
CaptainHaplo
11-15-08, 12:50 PM
OK - this idea that letting one of the big 3 die would cause a ripple effect that would destroy the economy - is bullocks. Yes - there would be some effect - but lets examine things here shall we? We will use GM as the example.
Option 1 - bail em out - again....
How many Billions of tax dollars are taken out of the hands of the working people to shore up a failing business? Doing so robs the working class to pay for the errors of the powerful. Ok - so some people whose efforts right now are focused on producing a product that the market really doesnt want - will get the opportunity to continue doing things the same way for the same result. You do know insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? But hey - they and the suppliers and everyone else get to keep their jobs for a while still right? At least until the next bailout is due..... What does all that money - that you or I would have been able to use for the things we need - now its not in the economy any more - what effect does that have? Less business transactions, less spending - the bottom and "recession" deepens.
Option 2 - let em fail...
They fail - employees are let go - suppliers see there customer dissolve. Now what? Well - wait a minute - now there are GM customers who still need parts - so the suppliers are going to have some customers still. The new car buyers now have less "choice" - but since the ones who would have bought GM cars can't - more business for the other car companies. Something the other 2 companies could take advantage of..... Those same suppliers are going to transition from GM supplies and will start competing to provide parts to the other 2 companies. Competition reduces prices - which is good for the consumer.... Now - what about the skilled employees that are out of jobs? Well, with an increase in demand for other brands, increased demand means ramped up production - so many would be able to use their existing skills to ramp into either a position with another producer. No, I don't pretend ALL of them would find jobs in the same industry.
Ok - we have taken care of the supplier, the worker - who is left? Oh yea, the executive bigwigs who ran the joint into the ground with their stupidity. Hmmmm - I don't forsee them being asked to take over another big manufacturer due to their history of failure. Seems the only "losers" here are the ones that SHOULD HAVE LOST in the first place. And all without costing you or me or anyone else an extra dime.
Which option works better?????
*Note - instead of bailouts - lets make it more attractive for companies that produce quality goods - like vehicles - to make them here - more american jobs and they don't have to pay to ship the things from china or wherever else. Who cares if it says Toyota - if it was made in Oklahoma?????
@August: yes, mid size sedan is what I wanted to express. Freud obviously got the better of me. Thanks for bringing this up.
@jpm: there are some true classics amongst these cars!
Which brings me to another question, capitalistic system or not, but would american pride actually allow the loss of it's domestic car industry? AFAIK US cars are one of the great symbols of the US. Losing these could become very bitter. How is that seen?
unfortunately that's not the first time that a great american car company disappear just watch my galleries but i agree with you on the fact that if they all would come to disappear that would be a great loss not to say a disaster . even as an european the loss of companies such Chevrolet or Cadillac would make me very (very , very) sad . Who did not dream of driving a Cadillac Fleetwood or a 1959 Eldorado such cars that only american can make there's Porsche there's Mercedes , theres's Bentley none of these brands whatever great they are have what american cars have the american cars have don't know it's indescribable and that's maybe why they are so fun :sunny: . but what i wanted to say it's that the actual problem being very complicated to analize the good way should be maybe to let things go on and let the wound heals by itself that was my though
nikimcbee
11-15-08, 05:08 PM
I think the union needs to take a pay cut.
Zachstar
11-15-08, 05:34 PM
I think the union needs to take a pay cut.
Will not happen unless..
A) The big 3 go down at the same time.
B) Unions are made unlawful.
UAW is the most powerful union there is. The benefits they get are insane just here alone I am hearing of workers that fit a single bolt and get over 20 dollars an hour. At the speed the line is going that is less than a quarter of the work an Entry level worker struggles at.
Then add in insane benefits.
That is not going to just get "Cut"
So the only way forward is to go electric or go down.
AVGWarhawk
11-15-08, 07:57 PM
So, screw the bail out. As far as the union, I have seen more unions break a company then make a company.
Gentlemen:
I do not advocate the bailout. That said, they [GM] goes belly up and worse yet the suppliers to GM fall with that too [domino effect] promptly.
That means looking in the "BIG" picture 1 or 2 Americans no longer have a job from the ripple effect over TIME ... not over night, just over a period of time. Pay now, or pay later - which one you want?
These endless RANTS of who is at fault, and they should have had an electric car/vehicle will NOT solve the problem overnight.
I have two credit cards. Neither one EVER had a balance due that I could not meet over 25+ years and if, I came short to make ends meet, I owed the company less than $1,000 bucks - happened two or three times and I paid off my debt the next month - happens to all of us.
That said, TOO MANY people live day-by-day high off the hog of owing money and it has caught up with us - the MILLIONS of people living financially beyond their means is SICKENING [credit cards, 2nd mortgage, home equity loans, etc].
Glad to see it happen, but those folks that have lived for years not paying down their debt are killing ALL of us now.
I have less than 4 years to pay off my house with payments around $250/month and I watch it's value go down the tubes - like all of us.
Stop living high off the hog, financially speaking.
$PAY$ your bills.
Excellent post Monica Lewinsky. :up: Fully share your sentiments. :yep:
Can I just call you Monica? ;)
Nice sentiment but not the issue concerning the auto industry. The auto industry has nothing to do with people living beyond their means. The auto industry is living beyond their means. They have gotten government money in the past and still in the hole. The union has crushed the company. If the union was interested in saving their jobs, take a pay cut. The local union of Preston trucking here in MD did it to save their jobs, alas, the writting was on the wall and the owners wanted it to fail anyway because more money would be made breaking up Preston Trucking and they did so a year after the union took the cut. The union workers are making more than the three of us combined and for what? Running in some bolts on an assembly line. Another case and point, Catapiller in York PA. The union was demanding more money and went on strike. Catapiller could not meet their demands and advised the union to leave the pay scale were it was and have a job or get a pay raise and the factory would close. The union was given the choice. They wanted more money, got it and the factory closed in two weeks. So, a bunch of strong arm union bosses got nothing....no job, no pay, no health benefits. Like I said, unions break companies, do not make them. Give the auto makers the money but the union has to be abolished and payscale created commenserate with the work at hand.
AVGWarhawk
11-15-08, 08:02 PM
I think the union needs to take a pay cut.
Will not happen unless..
A) The big 3 go down at the same time.
B) Unions are made unlawful.
UAW is the most powerful union there is. The benefits they get are insane just here alone I am hearing of workers that fit a single bolt and get over 20 dollars an hour. At the speed the line is going that is less than a quarter of the work an Entry level worker struggles at.
Then add in insane benefits.
That is not going to just get "Cut"
So the only way forward is to go electric or go down.
Screw that, clean house like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers union. Plenty of folks would take the job at $15.00/hour. The unions have strong armed enough, however, we all better believe the unions played a factor financially in Obama's favor during his campaign. Just like the mafia, it is payback time. To further that notion, the union screams that all of these poeple will loose their jobs right on down to the suppliers. It is in essense blackmail and puts the government over the barrel with their butt cheeks wide open. The union knows this and uses this tactic all the time.
@August: yes, mid size sedan is what I wanted to express. Freud obviously got the better of me. Thanks for bringing this up.
@jpm: there are some true classics amongst these cars!
Which brings me to another question, capitalistic system or not, but would american pride actually allow the loss of it's domestic car industry? AFAIK US cars are one of the great symbols of the US. Losing these could become very bitter. How is that seen?
Yea, can't happen. True classics. All hail, Lee Iacoccca!
You gonna get yours (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5lA-LSvtNuE)
larrysellars
11-16-08, 02:09 AM
Heya guys, just thought I'd throw in my two cents on the matter, seeing as how I'm currently employed in a GM factory (as a temp, not a full time employee). GM has won mid-size Car of the Year the past two years in a row. In 2007 it was the Saturn Aura, and this year it's the Chevy Malibu. This might be too little, too late, but it does show that GM is going in the right direction. The Volt is scheduled to arrive in 2010, and as far as I know, only Mitsubishi has an all-electric car coming out earlier (and they just recently pushed the date ahead from 2010 to 2009 a few weeks ago). I personally own a 2001 Saturn SC2 and have had nothing wrong with it except for regular maintenance. Also, my normal driving habits (70% highway) usually garner about 30-35 mpg.
The problem is that no one thinks "mid-size car" and "Chevy/Ford/Chrysler" in the same sentence. That's their own fault for allowing the Japanese to take over that market, but to claim that they produce nothing but Hummers/Chargers/etc. is patently false.
Like any other work place, a GM factory has it's good jobs and bad jobs. There are some people who get paid an amazing amount of money to do very little, but most jobs are boring, mind-numbing, and yet, not easy. And there are plenty of jobs at the plant that I wouldn't do for double what the regular guys get paid. In most stations, the timing is so tight that if you drop a screw, you will stop the line. Most jobs are also moderately physically demanding, as they've got you clambering all over the car to attach this, tie that down, shoot that bolt then the other bolt, then repeat ad nauseum for the next eight hours. Most days I wake up sore, and the first couple weeks were pure misery. So the idea of one guy screwing one bolt then waiting for five minutes for the next car to arrive is highly inaccurate.
The last round of negotiations (in 2007, I think) definitely benefited GM. They got the UAW to cover health care for retired workers, and reduced the benefits for current employees. The Union realizes it's screwed and is trying to salvage what it can. Although the deal benefits GM long term, and lets them compete with the Japanese automakers in terms of employee salary and benefits, it hits them hard in the short term because they have to donate something like $35 billion into the UAW health care trust. As I understand it, what GM really wants the gov't loan money for is that $35 billion.
That's not to say that GM shouldn't go under. I believe it should, along with the other two. And I also think that the people who claim it's not the UAW's fault are trying to rationalize how unions are still necessary. It's not entirely their fault, as the management of GM has made some horrible decisions which might have sunk the company on their own, but the UAW are certainly to blame. I do, however, believe that the gov't will bail them out. If Bush won't do it, then I guarantee you that Obama will. Going to work for the past two months has me believing that the UAW has it's own form of Newspeak. I was bombarded with Obama literature and propaganda, and anyone who thought he wasn't the promised one was roundly criticized. I quickly learned to stow any non-union ideals in the car before I entered the plant.
Personally, I believe the UAW does more harm than good, and that GM, Chrysler, and Ford should collapse. I also think it would be a very scary thing if that happened.
i need to be enlighted on a point , why US companies never tried to take market parts in Europe . i mean i've been in a US car once it was long time ago it was a little Chevy Beretta i mean that little car was great much more comfortable that its equivalents in Europe (maybe it used much more petrol too can't tell wasn't a the steering wheel :confused:) .
AVGWarhawk
11-16-08, 07:52 AM
Heya guys, just thought I'd throw in my two cents on the matter, seeing as how I'm currently employed in a GM factory (as a temp, not a full time employee). GM has won mid-size Car of the Year the past two years in a row. In 2007 it was the Saturn Aura, and this year it's the Chevy Malibu. This might be too little, too late, but it does show that GM is going in the right direction. The Volt is scheduled to arrive in 2010, and as far as I know, only Mitsubishi has an all-electric car coming out earlier (and they just recently pushed the date ahead from 2010 to 2009 a few weeks ago). I personally own a 2001 Saturn SC2 and have had nothing wrong with it except for regular maintenance. Also, my normal driving habits (70% highway) usually garner about 30-35 mpg.
The problem is that no one thinks "mid-size car" and "Chevy/Ford/Chrysler" in the same sentence. That's their own fault for allowing the Japanese to take over that market, but to claim that they produce nothing but Hummers/Chargers/etc. is patently false.
Like any other work place, a GM factory has it's good jobs and bad jobs. There are some people who get paid an amazing amount of money to do very little, but most jobs are boring, mind-numbing, and yet, not easy. And there are plenty of jobs at the plant that I wouldn't do for double what the regular guys get paid. In most stations, the timing is so tight that if you drop a screw, you will stop the line. Most jobs are also moderately physically demanding, as they've got you clambering all over the car to attach this, tie that down, shoot that bolt then the other bolt, then repeat ad nauseum for the next eight hours. Most days I wake up sore, and the first couple weeks were pure misery. So the idea of one guy screwing one bolt then waiting for five minutes for the next car to arrive is highly inaccurate.
The last round of negotiations (in 2007, I think) definitely benefited GM. They got the UAW to cover health care for retired workers, and reduced the benefits for current employees. The Union realizes it's screwed and is trying to salvage what it can. Although the deal benefits GM long term, and lets them compete with the Japanese automakers in terms of employee salary and benefits, it hits them hard in the short term because they have to donate something like $35 billion into the UAW health care trust. As I understand it, what GM really wants the gov't loan money for is that $35 billion.
That's not to say that GM shouldn't go under. I believe it should, along with the other two. And I also think that the people who claim it's not the UAW's fault are trying to rationalize how unions are still necessary. It's not entirely their fault, as the management of GM has made some horrible decisions which might have sunk the company on their own, but the UAW are certainly to blame. I do, however, believe that the gov't will bail them out. If Bush won't do it, then I guarantee you that Obama will. Going to work for the past two months has me believing that the UAW has it's own form of Newspeak. I was bombarded with Obama literature and propaganda, and anyone who thought he wasn't the promised one was roundly criticized. I quickly learned to stow any non-union ideals in the car before I entered the plant.
Personally, I believe the UAW does more harm than good, and that GM, Chrysler, and Ford should collapse. I also think it would be a very scary thing if that happened.
You are correct Larry on all points, specifically the bailout. Washington will send the money. There is one other part you did not mention and I went over it a few posts back...quality. I believe the quality of the cars made by the big three have grown considerably. I worked as a mechanic for 8 years(back in the 80's). I spent more time fixing GM products then any other. My experience with a brand new 1988 Monte Carlo was horrible. All of this happened before 27000 miles on it:
Replace pinion/seal/universal joint in rear axle (this was the day after I purchased the car:o )
leaking rear window
Blown valve seals
broken speedo cable
unbalanced drum from the factory (car vibrated at speed and I had to go to 3 dealers to finally find the problem and get it corrected)
Check engine light on (replaced ECM)
valve seals blown (again:o ). This time I did the repair myself with racing valve seals.
Check engine light on again. Car cuts off for no reason. Replace EGR valve and another ECM.
Check engine light on two days later. Car cuts off in the middle of intersection. Advised to pull intake manifold to clean up carbon build up by GM repair shop.
I advised to shove the car back to Detroit and turned it in. It was the safest car on the road because it was always in the shop. :-? Traded to a Japanese Geo Storm. Not a lick of trouble right up to 120000 miles. Nothing, zero, worked like a charm and as designed. I vowed never to purchase a GM ever again. I'm just one of millions to make the same vow because of the same problems. Many experienced this with Ford and Chrysler. It is very hard to shake the undependable quotent once you been labeled with it.
Currently I own a Lincoln Continental(Ford) and a Mercury Mountineer. No problems at all. I feel these are good quality cars and will continue to purchase Ford products. I just turned in our Dodge Caravan. Another excellent vehicle. Two issues with this van, bad pulley design for the serpentine belt and accumulator for the A/C under the dash. Other than that, we took that van right up 120000 miles without issue. I sold it to a relative for $400.00 who just loves the vehicle. The quality is back but getting people back onboard to show them the quality is very hard. The big three need to drive home the idea that their vehicles are quality made. Specifically, GM, needs to get new designers. Their cars are just dog butt ugly. Example, the Aztec...what the hell were they thinking. I just saw a concept car from Buick. Super nice and IMO a vehicle that will sell. We will probably not see this car get manufactured. At the moment I see only Buick leading the way on cars that are appealing.
i need to be enlighted on a point , why US companies never tried to take market parts in Europe . i mean i've been in a US car once it was long time ago it was a little Chevy Beretta i mean that little car was great much more comfortable that its equivalents in Europe (maybe it used much more petrol too can't tell wasn't a the steering wheel :confused:) .
They did, but they did it through european companies. Ford owns Jaguar and Volvo, as well as producing cars themselves. GM owns Opel and it's british brandname Vauxhall. I am not aware of anything Chrysler related, though.
... Currently I own a Lincoln Continental(Ford) and a Mercury Mountineer ...
that's a very cruel post for us europeans http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif
this thread's beginning to stress me Chevrolet and Cadillac are going to disappear no
[mode humor on]moderators please close that thread and also burn Subsim server so that this thread can't be found again http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif[/mode humor off]
... Currently I own a Lincoln Continental(Ford) and a Mercury Mountineer ...
that's a very cruel post for us europeans http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif
this thread's beginning to stress me Chevrolet and Cadillac are going to disappear no
[mode humor on]moderators please close that thread and also burn Subsim server so that this thread can't be found again http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif[/mode humor off]
Don't worry JPM, we still have model T's kept in running condition by legions of car fanatics. Caddys, Chevys and the rest will still be driving on American roads long after we're gone.
Digital_Trucker
11-16-08, 09:58 PM
Don't worry JPM, we still have model T's kept in running condition by legions of car fanatics. Caddys, Chevys and the rest will still be driving on American roads long after we're gone.
Don't forget that humongous fleet of Corvairs in my neighbors yards:rotfl:
AVGWarhawk
11-17-08, 09:56 AM
Don't worry JPM, we still have model T's kept in running condition by legions of car fanatics. Caddys, Chevys and the rest will still be driving on American roads long after we're gone.
Don't forget that humongous fleet of Corvairs in my neighbors yards:rotfl:
Unsafe at any speed!....Ralph Nader. My sister had a Corvair. It ran on memory. :rotfl:
Hylander_1314
11-17-08, 11:12 AM
Kay, folks, that's a topic I've been following quite a bit lately. I know the US car giants GM, Ford and Chrysler are overblown monsters, unprofitable, with cars not fitting into a world of dwindling oil reserves and climate change. Oddly enough in a country like the US there are unions that powerful making the life of these automobile makers pure hell. The cars also lack cutting edge technology by a fair shot, especially in engine development, though that appears to change atm. Too little, too late, though.
Nevertheless, on a personal level, I've always been quite fascinated by US cars. Big, powerful, raw. And as stupid the new muscle cars are from every POV common sense provides...darn, they are hot! I love these brutes with a passion. Were ressource conditions not what they are, I'd buy a new Challenger in a heartbeat! The chemics just fit.
GM declared without government help they won't survive this winter. But even with this help the problems probably are too big to save them. Pensions, a lacking model palette and lacking high techology these cars are simply 10 years behind their time.
When I was in the US last time two years ago, I got myself a Cadillac CTS to drive around. Great car on first glance, good acceleration ad lacking these übersoft suspensions typical of older cars I really grew to hate, but when I dropped a CD during unpacking, got down to get it from under the drivers seat...there were cables whereever you looked. It made the impression of beeing only half finsihed, with cables just hanging around freely. Like a childrens room where al the playtools are just shoved under the bed.
Selling by GM broke by 45 percent just this year. They lack any basis of beeing competetive in todays world. 100.000 to 200.000 would have to be fired by GM alone just to get back a healthy company size=profit relationship, something US unions are obviously unable to accept, not to talk about all the hard working ppl, some of them beeing in the company for the second or third generation.
What is to be done about this? I personally do not want to see the american car industry go down. They perfected the manufactoring of a german invention, produced countless classics and still have a reputation. Maybe I am just nostalgic, I already considered the downfall of the british car industry a great loss, but maybe dinosaurs are just bound to go extinct someday.
What is your opinion on that? What is a realistic way to solve this problem. And can it be helped at all? Are there any new upstart car companies giving some hope on the horizone?
American auto industry?
What American auto industry? Every car I have worked on made by the big 3 says made in Mexico, or Canada, or some other country. The big 3 are in big trouble, because of poor management, white collar theft of profits through loans and advances that are not under any requirement to be paid back, and lack of technological advancements.
Honda and Toyota now emmulate what a US car used to be like. Dependable, tough, and if taken care of, will run forever.
i wonder if that critical situation because for me talking of the disappearance of such symbols difficult to make more critical , i wonder if that's not simply the confirmation of the petrol era end
AVGWarhawk post pics of your Continental please
PeriscopeDepth
11-17-08, 12:53 PM
If the America auto industry has to fail under the free market system, it needs to fail. Giving an incompetent management a $25 billion handout is only delaying the inevitable so the Dems can say they're helping middle America. If it has to burn, let it burn now. We don't need to have the same discussion a few years from now. If the auto industry absolutely must be saved, 100% socialize them. The middle ground is just delaying the pain in the interest of looking like the Dem Congress is doing something.
PD
FIREWALL
11-17-08, 01:01 PM
Saturn is the only make I will miss. :yep:
Saturn is the only make I will miss. :yep:
don't know if one should laugh or if one should cry
If the America auto industry has to fail under the free market system, it needs to fail. Giving an incompetent management a $25 billion handout is only delaying the inevitable so the Dems can say they're helping middle America. If it has to burn, let it burn now. We don't need to have the same discussion a few years from now. If the auto industry absolutely must be saved, 100% socialize them. The middle ground is just delaying the pain in the interest of looking like the Dem Congress is doing something.
PD
nationalisation you got it man . some say nationalisation isn't logical in a capitalism system why not ? In France to quote a example i know all companies where the state is the major shareholder are in good condition good at the minimum in general they are in excellent condition ; why ? the controls benefit of the whole state structure these controls are regular and well made by competent persons because the bankrupcy of such company could lead to the politic in place death and believe me they don't want that to happen . Take the example of Airbus there were serious problems with the A380 as soon as the problem was detected the company leaders were changed and that several times until the company goes better . in a private system the company leaders are a kinda kings in their kingdom until the disaster's there you won't see anything , in opposite to a company ruled by the state where controls are frequent and in deep
I don't think the US government'll let the whole cars companies go down , the symbol is too important . Don't know for the others but when i hear the word United states of America i don't think to the Grand canyon , i don't think a F-16 , i don't think to a SR-71 , first thing that comes to my mind's a US car yesssssssssssssssssssssss http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire1.gif
AVGWarhawk
11-17-08, 03:45 PM
AVGWarhawk post pics of your Continental please
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/2001_Lincoln_Continental_2-1.jpg
Same year, same color, different wheels. 275 horses of petrol sucking V8 :smug: My continental before this was a 1980 Signature Series. Friggin tank it was.
AVGWarhawk post pics of your Continental please
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/2001_Lincoln_Continental_2-1.jpg
Same year, same color, different wheels. 275 horses of petrol sucking V8 :smug: My continental before this was a 1980 Signature Series. Friggin tank it was.
pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ! you americans don't know how lucky you're :up:
AVGWarhawk
11-17-08, 04:12 PM
In all reality I spend $20.00/week in gas. I only live 15 miles round trip from my work. My wife is 14 miles from work round trip and she spends $20.00 in her Mountaineer. Gas was really never an issue for us. Even when it went crazy over the summer I had to spend $25.00/week. A $5.00 increase. No big deal really.
FIREWALL
11-17-08, 04:53 PM
@jpm1 I gather American cars aren't your forte.
Saturn has one of the best customer satisfaction ratings for a US car.
AVGWarhawk
11-17-08, 08:28 PM
@jpm1 I gather American cars aren't your forte.
Saturn has one of the best customer satisfaction ratings for a US car.
Saturns are great cars. Also, they have come a long way in the looks department. I really like the two seat coop they have made recently.
bookworm_020
11-17-08, 11:41 PM
I think the best thing that could happen for the US atuo industry would be to place them in chapter 11 bankrupcy. They would be able to do some serious overhauling of agreements and managment.
I have never owned a car with an engine capicty of more than 2.0 liters. My current car is a 1997 Ford Mondeo, isn't a performance car by any measure:roll:, but runs well (at least mine does, my wife had the same car and that was a differnet story!), can fit 4 adults - 5 at a pinch - and luggage, and is light on the fuel use (Got 1000km off a 62 liter fuel tank!) .I don't see the need for anything bigger, no kids yet (but the car can cope with a kid or two), don't do any towing or carring any large loads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mondeo#Mk2
Unless The big three can improve there act in what they sell, how they sell it and the industry problems that they have, the cycle will continue to repeat.
Onkel Neal
11-17-08, 11:52 PM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit.
PeriscopeDepth
11-18-08, 12:13 AM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit.
Labor costs are certainly a big part of the problem. But there are at LEAST two other big parts as well.
PD
@jpm1 I gather American cars aren't your forte.
Saturn has one of the best customer satisfaction ratings for a US car.
my post was to be taken at the third degre , i apologize if i hurt you it wasn't my intention i was just trying to make a joke . Cheers
Konovalov
11-18-08, 06:43 AM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit.
Labor costs are certainly a big part of the problem. But there are at LEAST two other big parts as well.
PD
Such as the worst auto sales figures (http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/03/news/companies/auto_sales/index.htm?postversion=2008110317)in 25 years.
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
AVGWarhawk
11-18-08, 08:51 AM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit.
That is the bottom line. Union control of the company and managment with poor decision making skills. As you stated, the cars are there. The quality is back IMO. I would not buy any car other than American made. I have had great success with my vehicles beyond the nightmare 1988 Monte Carlo I mention a few posts back. However, that quality vehicle sale point was lost long ago for American carmakers. Getting it back will be a long road. When they make commercials showing the Cavalier as the same quality as the Honda, you have issues. The quality should stand on it' own. If you need to compare you car to the Honda for a sale, why not just go and buy a Honda because to me, the Honda is the standard in quality as the result of the commercial.
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
What a convinient scrapegoat. It always is the others fault, right?
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
What a convinient scrapegoat. It always is the others fault, right?
Well whose fault do you think it is if not the unions?
AVGWarhawk
11-18-08, 09:11 AM
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
What a convinient scrapegoat. It always is the others fault, right?
Well whose fault do you think it is if not the unions?
It is a combination of the following:
ugly cars (some are getting better with exception of GM)
poor quality (seriously improved but getting the customer base back is now very hard)
poor management
union payscale they can not afford resulting from the first three.
Take a look at Toyota and they exhibit none of the above.
i think maybe why the US cars never implanted in Europe it's because they didn't create enough agents , i mean who'll buy a car which with at the lesser problem one'll have to make 200 km to take the car to the garage ..
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
What a convinient scrapegoat. It always is the others fault, right?
Well whose fault do you think it is if not the unions?
It is a combination of the following:
ugly cars (some are getting better with exception of GM)
poor quality (seriously improved but getting the customer base back is now very hard)
poor management
union payscale they can not afford resulting from the first three.
Take a look at Toyota and they exhibit none of the above.
But none of that contradicts Longams comment about unions. They do tend to be lazy workers. I know this first hand having worked with them over a quarter century.
The entire union system is set up that way.
First off they foster an adversarial situation with management which in itself is a bad thing for the continued success of a company and which often results in poor performers being protected from dismissal.
Secondly. their pay is based on seniority instead of performance, which seriously dampens any motivation to work harder.
Finally their pay and benefits are way above what is appropriate for their job. There's just no way a factory worker earn $80k per year.
don't know how but i'm sure the US car industry 'll overcome this http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/thumbsup.gif
AVGWarhawk
11-18-08, 09:40 AM
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
What a convinient scrapegoat. It always is the others fault, right?
Well whose fault do you think it is if not the unions?
It is a combination of the following:
ugly cars (some are getting better with exception of GM)
poor quality (seriously improved but getting the customer base back is now very hard)
poor management
union payscale they can not afford resulting from the first three.
Take a look at Toyota and they exhibit none of the above.
But none of that contradicts Longams comment about unions. They do tend to be lazy workers. I know this first hand having worked with them over a quarter century.
The entire union system is set up that way.
First off they foster an adversarial situation with management which in itself is a bad thing for the continued success of a company and which often results in poor performers being protected from dismissal.
Secondly. their pay is based on seniority instead of performance, which seriously dampens any motivation to work harder.
Finally their pay and benefits are way above what is appropriate for their job. There's just no way a factory worker earn $80k per year.
Agreed on all points yet the Union will state otherwise as they did a few days ago. At any rate, the talks have stalled for the bailout...much like GM products. :rotfl:
They Have To Overcome This ..
One thing people don't realize is not only have the unions jacked up the wages but they also allow for allot of employees doing jack all day.
What a convinient scrapegoat. It always is the others fault, right?
Well whose fault do you think it is if not the unions?
It is a combination of the following:
ugly cars (some are getting better with exception of GM)
poor quality (seriously improved but getting the customer base back is now very hard)
poor management
union payscale they can not afford resulting from the first three.
Take a look at Toyota and they exhibit none of the above.
Completly agreed, unions are part of the problem from all the informations I have. I have no idea if american workers are lazy or not.
I just have a problem with those gents putting all the blame onto these whilst the managers come out with a smile...as usual.
Over here that's certainly not the case considering the overall cooperation of german unions with the state in reforms for the last 10 years to get Germany to become more attractive for investors and realize a lower payscales in general. So far it worked out better then most expected.
AVGWarhawk
11-18-08, 09:52 AM
They Have To Overcome This ..
That is just it jpm1. My family has owned GM products for over 50+ years. In the 1980's when environmental controls were first implemented on vehicles, quality took a very bad spiral down. Extremely undependable. The foreign makers got a good handle on engineering cars that met the emission requirments and they were dependable. I had replaced countless Holly, Motorcraft, Rochester caborators in the 80's. The rudimentary ROM computers under the dash were garbage. AC/Delco electronics just suck. Throw in some ugly cars and you have a brew for disaster and a family of GM buyers looking elsewhere. We are just one family of millions. Getting back a faithful customer base is very hard. As luck would have it, we have returned back to Ford and Chrysler. They have won me back. GM is on its own as far as I'm concerned.
it seems that you americans talk of your car industry like something that blazes you but you don't realize how lucky you are just sharpen your blades , verify your fire weapons and prepare yourselves to defend one of the America greatest symbol ... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/thumbsup.gif i'm european but i'll be behind you whatever happens
AVGWarhawk your Continental's a top notch car . I love US cars http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/smile_triste2.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire3.gif
AVGWarhawk
11-18-08, 09:56 AM
it seems that you americans talk of your car industry like something that blazes you but you don't realize how lucky you are just sharpen your blades , verify your fire weapons and prepare yourselves to defend one of the America greatest symbol ... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/thumbsup.gif i'm european but i'll be behind you whatever happens
I will defend the industry but some serious changes need to take place. No one is accountable. Start looking at the successful and imitate that model. Ford and Chrysler are on the right track as far as I'm concerned and I have become a loyal customer. In fact, the Mountineer I mentioned a few posts back I just purchased two months ago. I did not bother looking at foreign or GM products. My wife is very happy gettig the groceries in it:D
hey Americans you need to save your car industry or i won't love the US anymore .. dude what a depressing thread http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/larmes1.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/jpm1/Emoticons/sourire2.gif
a car whatever is name's Bentley or BMW or Porsche'll never be an american car :rock:
the american car 's the fun in essence
AVGWarhawk
11-18-08, 10:27 AM
a car whatever is name's Bentley or BMW or Porsche'll never be an american car :rock:
The larger BMW sedans I would take in a heart beat. I like the looks of the BMW and the Audi also. The Mini is very cool! Some of the two door Mercedes are beautiful cars also. Still, in support of American manufacturing, I purchase Ford. I like to keep my faith in American autos. :D
goldorak
11-18-08, 10:31 AM
a car whatever is name's Bentley or BMW or Porsche'll never be an american car :rock:
Of course you can, make sure the car is 5 meters long, 2 meters wide and drinks 10 liters/km. There you have it. A 100% genuine made in usa car. :p
a car whatever is name's Bentley or BMW or Porsche'll never be an american car :rock:
Of course you can, make sure the car is 5 meters long, 2 meters wide and drinks 10 liters/km. There you have it. A 100% genuine made in usa car. :p
that won't make me stop like the US cars
FIREWALL
11-18-08, 11:24 AM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit.
Labor costs are certainly a big part of the problem. But there are at LEAST two other big parts as well.
PD
What are they ?
FIREWALL
11-18-08, 11:34 AM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit.
Now this is more level headed thinking. :yep:
Labor costs have always been the problem in their case.
Why have'nt we heard from the UAW union heads ?
Their just sitting back rubbing their greedy hands together waiting for the bailout.
PeriscopeDepth
11-18-08, 02:31 PM
I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit. Labor costs are certainly a big part of the problem. But there are at LEAST two other big parts as well.
PD
What are they ? Efficiency for starters. While US workers are paid (what, ~30% more hourly in wage and benefits?) than their Japanese counterparts, Japanese automobiles also take substantially less man hours to produce. And it is not because they are all tiny things. The Japanese started it doing more efficiently a while ago with a product that had US consumers doing some VERY enthusiastic wallet voting in not much time.
And then there's the management. You can scream labor all you want, but it is the management's job to negotiate labor contracts. It is the management's job to ensure their business is run as efficiently as possible. It is the management's job to decide what products the consumer is going to be buying. It is the management's job to react to intense foreign competition. And they have not exactly done an excellent job in any of these areas. You are right though, the Union's do seem to be run by competent people.
You could write a book with what's wrong with the US auto industry. And in fact...someone has and it happens to be available online for free through a university. It's 26 years old, and what is really that different?:
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=291&page=1
Saying it's all labors' fault is turning a blind eye to many problems (I know that's not what Neal was saying). Yes, labor did contribute. But so did MANY other things.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947356-1,00.html
The American auto industry is still failing. As I said before, I tend to believe that the market can sort things out on its own just fine. And in this case, that looks like it means letting a few auto manufacturers bite the bullet. If this isn't politically acceptable, then we can't take a middle ground with another federal aid program. We need to 100% socialize OR let them burn. Anything else, and we'll just be talking about saving them again in the near future.
PD
FIREWALL
11-18-08, 02:48 PM
LABOR COSTS. It's exactly what Neal was saying.
Neal Stevens : I don't think the problem is with the cars they sell, not at all. The big 3 do sell cheap, high mpg cars, as well as family cars, trucks, and performance cars. The major factor in their demise, as I see it, is their labor costs. The unions have grown out of control in Detroit
PeriscopeDepth
11-18-08, 03:04 PM
LABOR COSTS. It's exactly what Neal was saying
I am not denying that labor costs are a big hit to American automakers. But the Union's job is to get their members good wages. GMC and Ford's job is to sell cars for profit. They have failed at the for profit part, partly due to their inability to manage their labor costs. Partly due to their inability to compete in a global market.
And BTW, capital letters and underlining what's already been said doesn't constitute a discussion.
PD
FIREWALL
11-18-08, 03:55 PM
It's to help those with reading probs. :D
PeriscopeDepth
11-18-08, 04:31 PM
Reuters developing story headline:
Sen. Stabenow says credit squeeze "has made it impossible" for Detroit automakers to meet daily operational costs , says "basic decision" for Congress is whether America needs domestic auto industry and its links to U.S. aerospace, defense and manufacturing sectors.
A CNN piece on GM's "downward spiral":
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0807/gallery.gm.fortune/index.html
PD
what are labor costs ? taxes , factories in US ..
big 3 leaders ask congress 25 billions $ to save them today , they are talking of the government as shareholder
Zachstar
11-19-08, 06:50 AM
Every day seems to be more and more bad news.
But I have to agree with those who are going against the flow of "Its because of the unions!" Yes a guy getting 20 an hour with huge benefits to turn a bolt a few times a min is harming but nowhere near as much as their failure to go electric a decade ago.
Yes I said a decade ago. The big 3 had marketable prototypes a decade ago but scrapped them because the thought was that the market was going to be flooded in oil.
Inability to see trends killed them.
Konovalov
11-19-08, 06:56 AM
Every day seems to be more and more bad news.
But I have to agree with those who are going against the flow of "Its because of the unions!" Yes a guy getting 20 an hour with huge benefits to turn a bolt a few times a min is harming but nowhere near as much as their failure to go electric a decade ago.
Yes I said a decade ago. The big 3 had marketable prototypes a decade ago but scrapped them because the thought was that the market was going to be flooded in oil.
Inability to see trends killed them.
Will it kill them all though? Or will it be a severe cull down to one or two? :hmm:
Every day seems to be more and more bad news.
But I have to agree with those who are going against the flow of "Its because of the unions!" Yes a guy getting 20 an hour with huge benefits to turn a bolt a few times a min is harming but nowhere near as much as their failure to go electric a decade ago.
Yes I said a decade ago. The big 3 had marketable prototypes a decade ago but scrapped them because the thought was that the market was going to be flooded in oil.
Inability to see trends killed them.
all french cars brands are in quite good condition and as far as i know they haven't much electrical models in their range :hmm:
Every day seems to be more and more bad news.
But I have to agree with those who are going against the flow of "Its because of the unions!" Yes a guy getting 20 an hour with huge benefits to turn a bolt a few times a min is harming but nowhere near as much as their failure to go electric a decade ago.
Yes I said a decade ago. The big 3 had marketable prototypes a decade ago but scrapped them because the thought was that the market was going to be flooded in oil.
Inability to see trends killed them.
Nonsense. Had the big 3 put out electric cars a decade ago they would have lost their shirt because nobody would have bought them.
Digital_Trucker
11-19-08, 10:13 AM
Every day seems to be more and more bad news.
But I have to agree with those who are going against the flow of "Its because of the unions!" Yes a guy getting 20 an hour with huge benefits to turn a bolt a few times a min is harming but nowhere near as much as their failure to go electric a decade ago.
Yes I said a decade ago. The big 3 had marketable prototypes a decade ago but scrapped them because the thought was that the market was going to be flooded in oil.
Inability to see trends killed them.
Nonsense. Had the big 3 put out electric cars a decade ago they would have lost their shirt because nobody would have bought them.
Amen! As much as we'd like to think otherwise, it isn't just the manufacturers who haven't proceeded on the "correct" path (not that electric is necessarily the way to go, considering the ecological aspects of battery production and disposal). The average American consumer doesn't want to drive a Prius, they'd rather drive a Hummer or big fat hot rod, or a huge V8 pickup. The only way you'll convince the American consumer that they need to drive more efficient vehicles is when the cost of gasoline gets so high that it forces us to move in the right direction or when there is no other choice but efficient vehicles to buy.
Konovalov
11-19-08, 10:18 AM
Nonsense. Had the big 3 put out electric cars a decade ago they would have lost their shirt because nobody would have bought them.
You mean like today where car sales of these 3 US giants are down 30-45%. All car manufacturers across the world are struggling with depressed sales figures 10-15% less but the big 3 in America have experienced far worse drops in sales.
Nonsense. Had the big 3 put out electric cars a decade ago they would have lost their shirt because nobody would have bought them. You mean like today where car sales of these 3 US giants are down 30-45%. All car manufacturers across the world are struggling with depressed sales figures 10-15% less but the big 3 in America have experienced far worse drops in sales.
And how many of these other car manufacturers owe their better performance to electric cars?
Amen! As much as we'd like to think otherwise, it isn't just the manufacturers who haven't proceeded on the "correct" path (not that electric is necessarily the way to go, considering the ecological aspects of battery production and disposal). The average American consumer doesn't want to drive a Prius, they'd rather drive a Hummer or big fat hot rod, or a huge V8 pickup. The only way you'll convince the American consumer that they need to drive more efficient vehicles is when the cost of gasoline gets so high that it forces us to move in the right direction or when there is no other choice but efficient vehicles to buy.
:yep:
Konovalov
11-19-08, 11:02 AM
Nonsense. Had the big 3 put out electric cars a decade ago they would have lost their shirt because nobody would have bought them. You mean like today where car sales of these 3 US giants are down 30-45%. All car manufacturers across the world are struggling with depressed sales figures 10-15% less but the big 3 in America have experienced far worse drops in sales.
And how many of these other car manufacturers owe their better performance to electric cars?
I don't buy much into the electric car stuff just as I don't buy entirely into the "greedy unions to blame" thing either. Management at these three US car giants cocked up big time over the last 15-25 years. A poor and outdated business model, overly generous employee benefits thanks to unions, and a massive almost unprecedented slump is US auto sales are key reasons for why the big three are where they are now.
I don't buy much into the electric car stuff just as I don't buy entirely into the "greedy unions to blame" thing either. Management at these three US car giants cocked up big time over the last 15-25 years. A poor and outdated business model, overly generous employee benefits thanks to unions, and a massive almost unprecedented slump is US auto sales are key reasons for why the big three are where they are now.
That pretty much sums it up.
Konovalov
11-19-08, 11:28 AM
Not sure if I have stated my position on this earlier so here it goes. The big three may have to become the big two. No bailout thanks.
Tchocky
11-19-08, 11:33 AM
Mitt Romney writing in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp
Mitt Romney writing in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp
I don't much like Romney but I think he's spot on here... Good find.
Konovalov
11-19-08, 11:56 AM
Mitt Romney writing in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp
This tends to tie in with my views earlier today. :yep:
Mitt Romney writing in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp
i do not completly agree with that point of view , if the state's a shareholder he has a right of look and it can impose the restructuration
DeepIron
11-20-08, 04:15 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7740670.stm
Well, I guess the Big 3 CEOs will just have to fly back home in their $20,000.00 a trip private jets and work it out... They can explain also to the "rank and file" how NOT to impress Senators and Congressmen...
restructuration's inevitable and has already been made far ago by european brands which because of that find themselves today in a relative sane economic condition
Mitt Romney writing in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp
i do not completly agree with that point of view , if the state's a shareholder he has a right of look and it can impose the restructuration
Depends on the percentage of stock they hold. 51% is the absolute ruler over 49% in this game.
Mitt Romney writing in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp
i do not completly agree with that point of view , if the state's a shareholder he has a right of look and it can impose the restructuration
Depends on the percentage of stock they hold. 51% is the absolute ruler over 49% in this game.
in theory but with less you can impose yourself as the main executive ... i was watching a documentary few days ago french politics that i personnaly consider when they were asked about the question they said that the main problem of the US cars companies was that they didn't made their restructuration while at the same time the EU brands did it
bookworm_020
11-23-08, 05:27 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7740670.stm
Well, I guess the Big 3 CEOs will just have to fly back home in their $20,000.00 a trip private jets and work it out... They can explain also to the "rank and file" how NOT to impress Senators and Congressmen...
Yes, no the best way to sell a shortage of money! http://business.smh.com.au/business/motown-comes-begging--in--three-private-jets-20081120-6cvm.html
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