Tree huggers and Athiests score another biggie

[SUBMAN1]

Shows just how intelligent they all are.

-S

The Silence of the Yams

The Dignity of Plants?


In the recent movie The Happening, plants, threatened by the growing human population, release a toxin into the air that causes people to kill themselves. A nursery owner tells the hero that plants can not only “target specific threats,” they can also communicate with each other and coordinate their “defense.”


While The Happening was panned by audiences and critics, one country appears to have taken the threat from plants seriously enough to sue for peace with the plant kingdom. That’s Switzerland.


How? By enshrining the “dignity”—their word, not mine—of plants in their constitution.


A molecular biologist at the University of Zürich recently sought permission to field test wheat that had been genetically modified to resist a particular kind of fungus. He not only had to prove that the test wouldn’t have unintended environmental consequences, he also had to “debate the finer points of plant dignity with university ethicists.” Then, he had to satisfy government officials that the trial “wouldn’t ‘disturb the vital functions or lifestyle’ of the plants.”


Dignity? Lifestyle? Of plants? Like many a farcical road, this one was paved with good intentions. In the 1990s, Switzerland amended its constitution to require that “account to be taken of the dignity of creation”—Switzerland’s word, not mine—“when handling animals, plants and other organisms.”


Then, last spring, the parliament asked a panel of “philosophers, lawyers, geneticists and theologians” to determine how this requirement applies to plants. The panel’s report concluded that people do not have “absolute ownership” over plants and that “individual plants have an inherent worth.” Therefore, they concluded, “we may not use them just as we please, even if the plant community is not in danger.”


Plant community?


As ethicist Wesley J. Smith has pointed out, phrases like “plant community” and the “dignity” of plants is evidence that our rejection of the biblical worldview “is driving us crazy.” Having rejected the “unique dignity and moral worth of human beings,” it was logical that “we would come to see fauna and flora as entitled to rights.”


More than that, this shift in worldview, Smith writes, regards “treating people differently from animals simply because they are human beings” as “invidious discrimination.”


Unfortunately, the damage from this worldview isn’t limited to making Alpine countries look silly or creating more paperwork for researchers. While some of the sought-after parity between man and the rest of creation is achieved by raising the status of animals and plants, most of it comes through lowering our status as humans.


That’s where the real danger lies. Research that could help feed countless millions is made more difficult and even impossible because of concerns over plant “dignity.” Even worse, carrying the logic to its conclusion, the sanctity of human life becomes a matter of what you can do, not who you are—that is, someone created in the image of God.


By the end of The Happening, the threat from the plants creates a renewed appreciation for human life. For once, I wish that life would imitate the movies.http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=10515

[GoldenRivet]

after i read this i killed a fern. :lol:

idiots

[Stealth Hunter]

Atheists, tree-huggers, bears! Oh my!

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g17/Sgt-Smithy/1205613353844bo3.gif

[bookworm_020]

I saw the movie the other night, IQ isn't required to view it!:doh:

[Kapt Z]

This is what happens when you don't go to war with anyone for like a thousand years!:lol:

[FIREWALL]

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5810/250pxmadhk1zz5.jpg
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[August]

This is what happens when you don't go to war with anyone for like a thousand years!:lol:

:rotfl:

[Hylander_1314]

Yeah when I made that sandwich for lunch, that head of lettuce and that tomato were screaming bloody murder while I hacked away at them.

Man with the intellegence level of the dribble coming out of hollywood the last ten to fifteen years it begs the question, have a whole lot of americans turned into gerbles?

[Blacklight]

Please stop bashing the Athiests. I'm an Athiest and neither I nor any of the Athiests I KNOW are ANYTHING like what you tend to bash. It kind of ticks me off. It's bad enough that the media only covers the storys about the Athiests who are idiots and they don't EVER show any of the ones who do positive stuff (not to mention that in some more religious states we're absolutely VILLIFIED !!)

I would prefer to call the people in that article IDIOTS and not lump them in with Athiests. You are beginning to VERY cross the line with me. The title alone should be grounds for killing this thread.

[Letum]

Please stop bashing the Athiests. I'm an Athiest and neither I nor any of the Athiests I KNOW are ANYTHING like what you tend to bash. It kind of ticks me off. It's bad enough that the media only covers the storys about the Athiests who are idiots and they don't EVER show any of the ones who do positive stuff (not to mention that in some more religious states we're absolutely VILLIFIED !!)

I would prefer to call the people in that article IDIOTS and not lump them in with Athiests. You are beginning to VERY cross the line with me. The title alone should be grounds for killing this thread.


If you don't like it, perhaps you shouldn't be an atheist.











Just kidding. ;)

[Bewolf]

This is what happens when you don't go to war with anyone for like a thousand years!:lol:

And that is something negative? :roll:

[SUBMAN1]

Please stop bashing the Athiests. I'm an Athiest and neither I nor any of the Athiests I KNOW are ANYTHING like what you tend to bash. It kind of ticks me off. It's bad enough that the media only covers the storys about the Athiests who are idiots and they don't EVER show any of the ones who do positive stuff (not to mention that in some more religious states we're absolutely VILLIFIED !!)

I would prefer to call the people in that article IDIOTS and not lump them in with Athiests. You are beginning to VERY cross the line with me. The title alone should be grounds for killing this thread.I'm sorry, but most atheists are turning radical militant types with no tolerance of others views, and there are even some on this board.

Of course, most atheists are too short sighted to see the end result of their forced beliefs on the rest of the world. The above is an example.

-S

[Letum]

I agree!
If we don't believe in deities people will end up marrying house plants. :yep:

[MothBalls]

I'm sorry, but most atheists are turning radical militant types with no tolerance of others views, and there are even some on this board.

Of course, most atheists are too short sighted to see the end result of their forced beliefs on the rest of the world. The above is an example.

-S

I'm sorry, but if you can't see the bigotry and prejudice in the comments you just made, there's no hope for you.

[Sea Demon]

I'm sorry, but most atheists are turning radical militant types with no tolerance of others views, and there are even some on this board.

Of course, most atheists are too short sighted to see the end result of their forced beliefs on the rest of the world. The above is an example.

-S
I'm sorry, but if you can't see the bigotry and prejudice in the comments you just made, there's no hope for you.

I see no bigotry here. That is a very overused term to the point that it is a useless charge anymore. Actually, the way I see it, ever since the major push to rid every institution of God, and the moral absolutes and guidance that come with it.....people's values and actions have become very warped, strange and lopsided. There is some real truth to this even if the example above is incredibly extreme. In the world that pushes God by the wayside, people have been lolled into believing that things that are good are evil....and things that are evil are actually good. Examples are abundant everywhere.

[SUBMAN1]

Good call SD. :up:

The problem is, we have ended up becoming a society that tolerates whatever feels good. Now where is the irony in that? I'm sure an idiot could find it, though an atheist would blindly ignore it.

-S

[MothBalls]

I'm sorry, but most atheists are turning radical militant types with no tolerance of others views, and there are even some on this board.

Of course, most atheists are too short sighted to see the end result of their forced beliefs on the rest of the world. The above is an example.

-S
I'm sorry, but if you can't see the bigotry and prejudice in the comments you just made, there's no hope for you.

I see no bigotry here. That is a very overused term to the point that it is a useless charge anymore. Actually, the way I see it, ever since the major push to rid every institution of God, and the moral absolutes and guidance that come with it.....people's values and actions have become very warped, strange and lopsided. There is some real truth to this even if the example above is incredibly extreme. In the world that pushes God by the wayside, people have been lolled into believing that things that are good are evil....and things that are evil are actually good. Examples are abundant everywhere.

Take out the word atheist in the sentence. Replace it with any racial slur, or replace it with the name of any religion. Read it again. The target doesn't matter, it's the generalization through association or belief.

[SUBMAN1]

Take out the word atheist in the sentence. Replace it with any racial slur, or replace it with the name of any religion. Read it again. The target doesn't matter, it's the generalization through association or belief.

With your definition, anything that flows from ones mouth could be construed as such.

You have fallen into the world of PC where even you cannot speak. What you are suggesting is as much bigotry as that which you have accused me of.

-S

[FIREWALL]

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5810/250pxmadhk1zz5.jpg
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Letum]

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5810/250pxmadhk1zz5.jpg
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:



:o You quoted your self to laugh at what you posted about 24 hours ago?

[Sea Demon]

Take out the word atheist in the sentence. Replace it with any racial slur, or replace it with the name of any religion. Read it again. The target doesn't matter, it's the generalization through association or belief.
With your definition, anything that flows from ones mouth could be construed as such.

You have fallen into the world of PC where even you cannot speak. What you are suggesting is as much bigotry as that which you have accused me of.

-S

Those that fear the debate are always the quickest to throw charges of "racism" "bigotry" "prejudice" or anything else they believe will shut down the free flow of ideas and speech the quickest. Doesn't work on me though...I see the baseless charges as a glaring weakness, and the lack of a substantive argument to support their POV.

[Fincuan]

Hehe you guys are hilarious :lol: For a long time I've had a hard time deciding on whether you're doing some kind of comedy show here or that you really are serious.

[SUBMAN1]

Hehe you guys are hilarious :lol: For a long time I've had a hard time deciding on whether you're doing some kind of comedy show here or that you really are serious.You are from Finland, so it is no wonder you would not know. :p :lol:

-S

[Letum]

Hehe you guys are hilarious :lol: For a long time I've had a hard time deciding on whether you're doing some kind of comedy show here or that you really are serious.
SUBMAN1 is actual a satirical second account of mine at subsim that I use to post
this kind of thing. I like to use the SUBMAN1 character to blur the lines between
comedy and what someone like him would really say so that the audience never
quite know if I'm being serious or just post-ironic.

He doesn't really exist. It's just me posting for laughs.
;)

[SUBMAN1]

Hehe you guys are hilarious :lol: For a long time I've had a hard time deciding on whether you're doing some kind of comedy show here or that you really are serious.
SUBMAN1 is actual a satirical second account of mine at subsim that I use to post
this kind of thing. I like to use the SUBMAN1 character to blur the lines between
comedy and what someone like him would really say so that the audience never
quite know if I'm being serious or just post-ironic.

He doesn't really exist. It's just me posting for laughs.
;):D

You can wake up now! Exit Letum dreamland already! :D

I must admit, you made me laugh! :lol:

-S

[Letum]

...and so the lines blur again and the illusion is complete! :D

[SUBMAN1]

...and so the lines blur again and the illusion is complete! :DCrap, I'm Letum? Crap! I can't live this pathetic life! I must commit suicide! Reality is blurrin......... BANG! :D


-S

[Fincuan]

Whoa! Only one short posting at another forum, and in the meantime this thread has evolved into something quite surrealistic. Now eveyone get drunk and we just might have the ingredients of a Finnish comedy show here :lol:

[August]

Whoa! Only one short posting at another forum, and in the meantime this thread has evolved into something quite surrealistic. Now eveyone get drunk and we just might have the ingredients of a Finnish comedy show here :lol:

Don't you just feel the love? :lol:

[Digital_Trucker]

Whoa! Only one short posting at another forum, and in the meantime this thread has evolved into something quite surrealistic. Now eveyone get drunk and we just might have the ingredients of a Finnish comedy show here :lol:
Don't you just feel the love? :lol:

Oh yeah http://209.85.12.227/html/emoticons/wub.gif it's just flowing all over.http://209.85.12.227/1396/109/emo/violin.gif I can hear the violins now.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm sorry, but most atheists are turning radical militant types with no tolerance of others views, and there are even some on this board.
Can you really not see it? That is a perfect description of the way you come across.

Some atheists are of the simple "Sorry, I don't see why I should believe" type, and some truly are militant "There's no God and you're an idiot for believing!". They can be intolerant, and they can be very tolerant. The same is true of believers. Some explain why they believe, and some call other people names for not believing.

You say you don't attack people, but you reserve the right to say the nastiest things about those who dare to argue with you. Do you have any tolerance for others' views?

Let's have an honest discussion about it, rather than dismissing the opposition. It's something I've never seen you do, and would love to.

[Fish]

Please stop bashing the Athiests. I'm an Athiest and neither I nor any of the Athiests I KNOW are ANYTHING like what you tend to bash. It kind of ticks me off. It's bad enough that the media only covers the storys about the Athiests who are idiots and they don't EVER show any of the ones who do positive stuff (not to mention that in some more religious states we're absolutely VILLIFIED !!)

I would prefer to call the people in that article IDIOTS and not lump them in with Athiests. You are beginning to VERY cross the line with me. The title alone should be grounds for killing this thread.

Blacklight, solace yourself with this idea; there are always more religious zealots then there are atheist zealots.:yep:

[Stealth Hunter]

I would also like to add to Steve's post by saying that although I can rant on about religion and do, it's not because I am an Atheist. I think religion can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing. In my opinion, it causes more problems than it solves. What makes me more angry than anything is when people try forcing their ideas on others via laws, the education system, or governmental contracts.

[Fish]

Hehe you guys are hilarious :lol: For a long time I've had a hard time deciding on whether you're doing some kind of comedy show here or that you really are serious.You are from Finland, so it is no wonder you would not know. :p :lol:

-S

This guy is from your country, he knows. :yep:


http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Stealth Hunter]

Indeed. The Europeans have had hundreds of years of history in politics, war, and peace. If they offer advice, take it. They know what they're doing.:lol:

[Skybird]

Steve once said it best: I have no problem with somebody if he does not raise a problem to me.

Keep thy religion to thyself and do not try to impose it on state and society. Where you parade with your beliefs in self-righteousness, you deserve my laughs and mockery. Where you try to influence state and society, you get my bitter resistance and hostility. Where you understand that your religion is yours alone and nobody else's issue or obligation, and you keep it for yourself - you will have no problem with me, since I do not care for your private business.

I don't demand you to reduce your freedoms in favour of mine - so do not expect me to fall back so that you can have greater freedoms for yourself - at the cost of mine.

If that makes my atheism "militant", then I accept that title with pride and honour. For I prefer freedom to religion and will not accept loss of freedom in the name of religion. And if needed, I fight for this freedom.

[nikimcbee]

Indeed. The Europeans have had hundreds of years of history in politics, war, and peace. If they offer advice, take it. They know what they're doing.:lol:

I'll say no to that one.

[Stealth Hunter]

OK then. Ignore the advice of the more experienced.

[nikimcbee]

OK then. Ignore the advice of the more experienced.

Roger that. My family loved europe so much, they left there in the 1700s.

[Stealth Hunter]

And 300 years later, their descendant's opinions have not changed.:doh:

[nikimcbee]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/myfask/258Troll_spray.jpg

[SUBMAN1]

Steve once said it best: I have no problem with somebody if he does not raise a problem to me.

Keep thy religion to thyself and do not try to impose it on state and society...Then why is it that you not only impose your views on the rest of us, but you constantly raise the religion flag in this forum when no one has done anything to you?

Hypocrisy.

-S

[Letum]

Steve once said it best: I have no problem with somebody if he does not raise a problem to me.

Keep thy religion to thyself and do not try to impose it on state and society...Then why is it that you not only impose your views on the rest of us, but you constantly raise the religion flag in this forum when no one has done anything to you?

Hypocrisy.


Skybird doesn't keep his religion to him self?
Can you even tell us what SB's religious/spiritual views or beliefs are?

[Frame57]

Steve once said it best: I have no problem with somebody if he does not raise a problem to me.

Keep thy religion to thyself and do not try to impose it on state and society. Where you parade with your beliefs in self-righteousness, you deserve my laughs and mockery. Where you try to influence state and society, you get my bitter resistance and hostility. Where you understand that your religion is yours alone and nobody else's issue or obligation, and you keep it for yourself - you will have no problem with me, since I do not care for your private business.

I don't demand you to reduce your freedoms in favour of mine - so do not expect me to fall back so that you can have greater freedoms for yourself - at the cost of mine.

If that makes my atheism "militant", then I accept that title with pride and honour. For I prefer freedom to religion and will not accept loss of freedom in the name of religion. And if needed, I fight for this freedom.That's special...! Problem is-that it is a big part of our culture and heritage. To me it is good problem. I like seeing the ten commandments on courthouse walls. I like the motto "In God we trust". I like our sworn officials to place their hand over the bible. I like our pledge of allegiance... "One nation under God..." Here in America we like freedom too and religion here has helped that cause and has not hindered it.

[Skybird]

Steve once said it best: I have no problem with somebody if he does not raise a problem to me.

Keep thy religion to thyself and do not try to impose it on state and society...Then why is it that you not only impose your views on the rest of us, but you constantly raise the religion flag in this forum when no one has done anything to you?

Hypocrisy.


Skybird doesn't keep his religion to him self?
Can you even tell us what SB's religious/spiritual views or beliefs are?

The past three months of my self-started religiously crusading threads. Three months it actually only is by date of the last replies. By starting date it reaches back even longer.

Check the list of intolerance and atheist hate here:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/1303/image1fk9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/4829/image2rq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5290/image3lu5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/7734/image4gh1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6954/image5ps7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That's just the past three months, but feel free to search youself before that. On launching threads of my own, being a member since 8 years, while over the past 4 years I started numerous threads on islam and several ones on religion in general (and have stopped both almost completely since mid last year) or linked a critical video of Pat Condell defending freedom against the claims of religious zealots, I only once had a thread launched where I explicitly described my own worldviews by an external link to one essay of mine, and repeated that link two times I think in reply to other people'S threads, and did so for a reason that had nothing to do with missionising or imposing my view on others.

But as I said I reserve the right to react to religious or atheist-bashing threads by others if they propagate stuff and claims that are at the cost of people not sharing these religious views. And yes, at those opportunities, which somewhat qualify for a description of self-defense against religious claims, I don't leave any doubt on my position that confronts such expansive and aggressive claims made by religion head on.

The point is - I do like that only then.

A deeply intolerant person like Subman will just not understand the difference, nor will he understand the difference between constructive criticism - and suggestive, manipulative propaganda and aiming at the speaker personally to hurt him or his reputation to score the easy laughs. He only knows "Subman, that's always good" versus "Non-Subman, always is evil and must be attacked and bullied".

Poor individual. I even can't be angry about his venomous attacks anymore. A sad smile for him, at best. By putting him on my ignore-list I just compensate for the lacking job that moderation normally should take care of. Before accusing me of religiously crusading threads, check his own record of threads from his profile and see how very very many of them are even already provoking by their aggressive or abusive titles, not to mention the twisted content of them about which quite some people in recent weeks have voiced their disgust.

Or in brief, Subman, while you are already on my ignore list since longer time now and will not be directly adressed by me anymore, answer me my favour of ignoring you personally on equal terms, if you please. there already is SD and August and half a dozen others to collect your applaus from - what do you need me for?

Ah, for stabbing me from behind and trying to make a cheap score at my cost by posting something suggestive and wrong about me, misquoting me or putting something in my mouth, hm, yes, I forgot, for that you need a Feindbild like me indeed - to distract from yourself. Because much what you accuse others of - and especially me - you excessively practice yourself, ad nauseum. That's what is called trolling.

Not wanted here. Just leave me alone. Put me on your ignore list as well, and you're fine.

[Letum]

?? Was that directed specifically at me, or did you just happen to quote me?

[Skybird]

?? Was that directed specifically at me, or did you just happen to quote me?
I quoted your quote, so to speak. Not aiming at you.

[Frame57]

Boo friggin hoo Skybird. You are the one who jumps every ones fecal matter when they even mention religion, which I have yet to read a thread here where people are "pushing it on you". Grow up for Christs sake...Oops I meant grow up for Darwins sake and quit vaunting your self ego and narcissism at every opportunity to ruin a thread.

[Konovalov]

Everyone needs to take a chill pill here. :) Perhaps all should just take a step back and let it slide. :yep: Come on citizens of Subsim. :up:

Anyway, in less than two weeks time I will be chilling out in a special place while planning to avoid a stampede or any such nonsense that can occur in large crowds. Plus I will avoid the cold over here in England for the next month. :sunny:

[joegrundman]

Boo friggin hoo Skybird. You are the one who jumps every ones fecal matter when they even mention religion, which I have yet to read a thread here where people are "pushing it on you". Grow up for Christs sake...Oops I meant grow up for Darwins sake and quit vaunting your self ego and narcissism at every opportunity to ruin a thread.

Bug-eyed apoplectic spasm of the day award goes to.....Frame 57!

I particularly enjoyed the touch about growing up and not ruining the thread, as if this thread was worthy of anything other than being flushed down the toilet

You guys said all this hate would subside after the election - but I'm not seeing it. I think a lot of you have become unhinged by it.

[Konovalov]

Cool stuff Konovalov, I hope everything will go smoothly :up:
Thanks mate. Me too. As I learnt at cubs and then scouts as a child, be prepared. ;)

[Frame57]

Boo friggin hoo Skybird. You are the one who jumps every ones fecal matter when they even mention religion, which I have yet to read a thread here where people are "pushing it on you". Grow up for Christs sake...Oops I meant grow up for Darwins sake and quit vaunting your self ego and narcissism at every opportunity to ruin a thread.

Bug-eyed apoplectic spasm of the day award goes to.....Frame 57!

I particularly enjoyed the touch about growing up and not ruining the thread, as if this thread was worthy of anything other than being flushed down the toilet

You guys said all this hate would subside after the election - but I'm not seeing it. I think a lot of you have become unhinged by it.You are right! It is every thread, not just this one...:yep:

[Fish]

["In God we trust". I like our sworn officials to place their hand over the bible. I like our pledge of allegiance... "One nation under God..." Here in America we like freedom too and religion here has helped that cause and has not hindered it.

Unlike the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7681914.stm

[Letum]

["In God we trust". I like our sworn officials to place their hand over the bible. I like our pledge of allegiance... "One nation under God..." Here in America we like freedom too and religion here has helped that cause and has not hindered it.
Unlike the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7681914.stm

Quote of the week:

...But Stephen Green of pressure group Christian Voice said: "Bendy-buses, like atheism, are a danger to the public at large.
:rotfl:

[Skybird]

Contra-productive. To include the word "probably" in that slogan certainly boomeranged on them - well-deserved, I might add. Where do we end if even atheists are not sure about god's non-existence anymore? :lol:

How come such silly ideas like those busses, or walking from door to door with a bible in the hand, to people's mind? Have their moms not given them enough hugs and kisses when they were young, or what? :doh:

[Stealth Hunter]

Boo friggin hoo Skybird. You are the one who jumps every ones fecal matter when they even mention religion, which I have yet to read a thread here where people are "pushing it on you". Grow up for Christs sake...Oops I meant grow up for Darwins sake and quit vaunting your self ego and narcissism at every opportunity to ruin a thread.

Ignorance of this kind stems from your lack of education about science, biology, or even simple principles. "Evil Darwinists", "Satan-following Atheists", it never gets old... well, actually it does, but it makes me laugh.

[Sailor Steve]

I like seeing the ten commandments on courthouse walls. I like the motto "In God we trust". I like our sworn officials to place their hand over the bible. I like our pledge of allegiance... "One nation under God..." Here in America we like freedom too and religion here has helped that cause and has not hindered it.
I thought we had that discussion already.

1) The Ten Commandments start by demanding we worship the Hebrew God and Him only. Very detrimental to Freedom of Religion. They are mostly devoted to moral values, not law.

2) "In God We Trust". Same thing. It hasn't been on our money forever - only recently.

3) Francis Bellamy's 1892 original: "I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." "Under God" wasn't added until 1954.

My personal opinion on The Pledge is that a free country doesn't require or need loyalty oaths.

I also completely disagree that religion has helped the cause of freedom. When Jefferson wrote the Virginia Act for establishing Religious Freedom he was fighting against the Christian leaders of his day, who had laws on the books saying you could be jailed for denying the Trinity, and executed for "Blasphemy". That was the religious influence on freedom in those days, and from what some of today's leaders say, they wouldn't mind if we went back to laws like that.

[Stealth Hunter]

Ever seen Ken Russell's "The Devils"? It was a film based off Aldous Huxley's "The Devils of Loudon", which pertained to the trial and execution of Urbain Grandier, a 17th century priest who became involved in politics, and because he was against the politics of the king, he was found guilty of witchcraft and sentenced to be burned at the stake (see the Loudon Witchcraft Hearings for more info on the subject).

[Skybird]

I would add to Steve that for quite some people (Roosevelt for example!) the abuse of the name of God for trivial things like printing it on money, or making it a part of political slogans, was and is a sacrileg, and some even would argue - and do so - that it is a violation of the second and third commandement, making ridicule of the name of God, and minimising him for human interests.

Which leads me to my old thesis that religion and one'S relation to one'S deity is a most priovate affair and should be kept in the private, and parading it in public like a fairground attraction makes ridicule of it and in reality minimises the God one hypocritically claims to glorify that way. In the end, it is not about worshipping or being religious, but to use power in trying to force others believing the same one believes oneself.

the first amendment (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.) not only protects the freedom of religion, but also the freedom from religion. And it is clearly said that the state shall not interfere and help any religion'S interests and should stay away from promoting any given religion, or assist it'S ideals. but the adding of the "in god we trust" to money in 1955 came from massive lobbying and campaigning by the Catholic organisation of the socalled Knights of Columbus. the pledge of allegiance also was changed and got that reference to God not before - Steve says 1954, I have 56 on my mind, but I probably mix up the numbers here, again after massive religious lobbying disrespecting the first amendement. In my views, these things came in violation of the spirit of the founding fathers who did not wish any religion interfering with the state, or the state actively assisting any religion, and in clear violation of the first amendment.

Religious people's freedom must end where they practice their religion in a way that reduces the freedom of others not sharing their religion. Nobody should need to fall back just for religious people being allowed to have the freedom to spread their views unlimited and increase their freedom at the cost of the freedom of others. Religious people not seing that are not religious at all, but simply illustrate their intolerance and self-perception of alleged superiority. It is not religion they talk of, but simple powerpolitics and mental uniformity.

[August]

Well, I will talk about my beliefs to whoever i want whenever i want to and nobody is going to stop me.

[joegrundman]

I agree with August, even if i'm on the other side so to speak

I think people get far too precious about the whole thing.

I may not be a christian, but lots of my closest friends are, and i find there's lots to admire in Christianity, as well as other religions. And of course the contribution of Christianity to the western cultural tradition cannot be denied (all though some Christians tend to believe it is the only contribution, which i think is somewhat self-aggrandizing as well as irritating)

Basically, I'm not offended by religious discussion, and I'm not even offended by explicit proselytizing, and equally the Christians that I know are not greatly troubled by my lack of Christianity.

But i think the same goes for the bus-campaign. Why get strung out about it? No one's forcing christians to renounce, and if Christians think they should have the right to hold "The end is nigh" placards and preach from soap boxes and display "the only way to life is through Jesus" signs (and they do and should have this right!) then the same goes for other points of view too.

I think that Skybird's belief that the best solution is for all religious beliefs to be private bubbles that never interact with those of another is overly precious. I find that i can very easily, and in a relaxed manner, cope with the intrusion of other people's religious beliefs into my life.

Religion is, whether you personally follow one or not, a major part of the culture on this planet of ours. Humans have been here for a long time, and religion seems to be as old as we are. And there is a long time for us yet, and religion will still be with us a long time in the future

I also don't concern myself with the thought that by putting Holy phrases and images onto mundane objects such as money they are in some way denigrating the divineness of the holy object - because i really don't care about such esoteric things, and as far as separation of church and state, i think this is well within acceptable parameters.

[Skybird]

Joe,

have oyu seen the director's cut of "Kingdom of Heaven"? As confused as the commercial version was, as masterful is the director's cut. There is this scene at 0:53, where a Christian knight, member of the order of St. John (I think), philosophises like this:

"I put no stock in religion. I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'the will of God'. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness - what God desires - is here [points to the head] and here [points to the heart]. By what you decide to do every day , you will be a good man - or not. [smiles]"



And there is a long time for us yet, and religion will still be with us a long time in the future

Then the question is if we will be there for a long time in the future anymore.

I do differ between "spirituality" and "relgion". The first is the attitude of man that makes him yearning for answers to certain existential questions, to define himself to be in control of life to a certain degree, and to add meaning to life, cosmos, and his own existence and role in it. Without a certain minimum of such "security", life would be too hard to bear for many. By defining your place in cosmos, you define who you are yourself. This is what I call the spiritual attitude of man, and seen that way no person can avoid to be spiritual in this or that way - some are by turning towards religions, others by turning towards - for example - materialism to give them comfort from these urgent questions. As buddhism correctly says: one thing all humans have in common: they want to avoid pain, and seek for happiness. Just our definitions of what happiness is, or can be, are very different. Even Stalin and Hitler tried to be happy. Their definition of happiness as a way to answer existential questions, was horrific, however. they wanted to be safe and unhamred by seeking total, ultimate control over all others.

Religion, is just one answer to spirituality, and it is an answer that trades active serarching for something for a ritualised simulation of searching, or better: a simulation of having found the ltimate answers without the need to search in reality. Religion is a spirituality-simulator, so to speak. But both terms in reality are mutually exclusive. You do not search anymore, but claim or hope and assume to have arrived already. It is a ritual that replaces active searching by a set of ceremonial symbols. andn this is what makes it so very vulnerable to human abuse, powerpolitics and earthly craving for material possession and control over others, for it creates the elite that guards the rituals and rites that are being mistaken for the truth itself.

there are many possible ways a person can deal mwith the question of where we come from, where we go, how long we can stay, and why we are here. Hedonism and asketism, total altruism and brutal sefishness can be all strategies to end the pain from not having the answers, or chnage the search for them with the comfort of assuming one laready got them withiout needing to carry on. Religions come in many forms and variations, but they too are only some more strategies to face the final existential questions. and they are man-made strategies as well. they provide some people with the comfort to believe and even to feel certainty, that one's own existence has a meaning. The price for this comfort is - stagnation, and not asking wether that could be true, or not.

He who wants to discover the new world, needs to steer his ship awys from the land he calls home, and hands his ship and fate over to the unknown that is called the wide blue sea. Every one of us need to find his own answers to his questions. But where we trust in religions, it is as if we never left the harbour, and our ship still moored to the quay, and we read a fictional adventure story about foreign lands that we have never seen and do not know if they exist. It may be a good and entertaining read indeed, and hours pass quickly, that are our life's time. But the world we read about - still is just our fantasy.

Spiritual you only are where you reject religion's tempting promise for shortcuts and winning the comfort of security. Relgions are institutionalised organisations of rite and ceremonial surrogates replacing the reality you are surrounded by, and they assist the hierarchy of those controlling you to get your obedience and your material support. I often say keep thy religion to thyself - because only then you avoid your spirituality to become institutionalised religion. then both spirituality and relgion fall into just one - your own way to try findign the answers to those existential questions we all are haunted by. And then it may show to bring out the best of you - or not. It depends on your decisions and choices.

and as far as separation of church and state, i think this is well within acceptable parameters.
Are you sure? Food for thought for example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg
and here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125504&highlight=Force+Academy+chaplain
and many other examples possible. Google is your friend. Mobbying and threatening atheists is not uncommon in some parts of the country.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, I will talk about my beliefs to whoever i want whenever i want to and nobody is going to stop me.
Absolutely! All discussion is good. What's bad is trivializing or dismissing the other guy's beliefs out of hand. I can't prove you're wrong, any more than you can prove you're right.

Or, to quote Robert A. Heinlein, "One man's religion is another man's belly-laugh."

[Skybird]

Well, I will talk about my beliefs to whoever i want whenever i want to and nobody is going to stop me.

Bet money on that!? Try that on my doorstep, and I'll send you away with a laugh, since I did not invite you. If later I open the door again and you're still there, you'd be in trouble.

You can talk to whom ever and about what ever you want, as long as it is consensual talking and the other agrees to engage with you. If you expect the other to listen to you although he does not wish to listen to you, or you talk and do not care for wether you are welcomed or not - that is when you have stepped over the line. If we would live side by side in two neighbouring appartem,ents and you play your radio so loud that I cannot live without being participating in your listenin habits, maybe even needing to give up my own music since I cannot hear it withiut turning my appartment into a disco, then you have gone too far.

So, you have freedom of speech. and others have the freedom to demand from you to pratcice it in a way that they must not be affected by you doing so. Your rights do not rank higher than theirs.

[Wolfehunter]

I'm sorry, but most atheists are turning radical militant types with no tolerance of others views, and there are even some on this board.

Of course, most atheists are too short sighted to see the end result of their forced beliefs on the rest of the world. The above is an example.

-S
I'm sorry, but if you can't see the bigotry and prejudice in the comments you just made, there's no hope for you.I agree with this. I don't understand why you have to pick on atheists all the time subman. Are we such a danger to your belief's?

My all time favorite killer plant movie was the killer tomatoes series hehehe.:rotfl:

But I love tomatoes very much... Great with bacon and mayo.

[August]

Bet money on that!? Try that on my doorstep, and I'll send you away with a laugh, since I did not invite you. If later I open the door again and you're still there, you'd be in trouble.

Is this some kind of threat? Don't worry stock boy. I probably couldn't find you hiding in your parents basement anyways... :lol: