Submarines 1, Whales 0

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27678464/

[SteamWake]

Give it a little time, this to will probably get overturned regardless of the lack of hard evidence.

[FIREWALL]

This is a BIG delema for me. Since I live on an island and see the whales on a somewhat daily basis I'm concerned.

But I'm just as concerned for the safety of my country.

[Bill Nichols]

Give it a little time, this to will probably get overturned regardless of the lack of hard evidence.

Yeah... I expect the United Nations will be asked to overturn the US Supreme Court at the behest of the EU.

:arrgh!:

[Zayphod]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27678464/

Roberts pointed out that the federal appeals court decision restricting the Navy's sonar training acknowledged that the record contained no evidence marine mammals had been harmed.

Most important quote in the entire article. These guys that say "Oh, it's bad, because we 'feel' it's bad, so it must be bad." then go to court with that are going to hit the "prove it" wall at MACH 2 and wonder what the hell happened. :doh:

[Zachstar]

This is a BIG delema for me. Since I live on an island and see the whales on a somewhat daily basis I'm concerned.

But I'm just as concerned for the safety of my country.

You are just as concerned about a method that is rarely used and announces your position to every enemy boat and bouy for many many miles?

My guess is the supreme court does not play DW.

[baggygreen]

zach, true its rarely used now, but what about in a shooting war against d/e subs in shallow water? As I understand it, going active is the only way to confirm a target, and even that is more difficult then they'd like..

edit: my point is that they need to train for the possibility (probability?)

[SteamWake]

Rarely used.. yes

But when it is used it had better work and those using it had better know how to use it.

I say we engineer ear muffs for whales :smug:

[joegrundman]

I was just watching this on the news, and it seemed to make the following points

- the Navy acknowledged that very powerful active sonar can kill or maim whales, but that was sadly a price that needed to be paid

- that it was ASW, not submarines, that used the sonar - (and i remember reading somewhere that this is more important now because modern nuke boats are very quiet and so passive sonar is not as useful as it was in the cold war)

- that despite their victory in the courts, navy personnel also enjoy looking at whales, and would attempt to take care to avoid using it if there are whales nearby, if this is practical.

[bookworm_020]

Watch out! the Wales may get revenge if they use there sonar!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_(whaleship)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Alexander_(ship)

"Call me Ishmael!":arrgh!::arrgh!:

[SUBMAN1]

Give it a little time, this to will probably get overturned regardless of the lack of hard evidence.It can't. And the Supreme Court rarely revisits cases that it has already ruled on. This is pretty much a permanent deal.

-S

[JALU3]

The ASW training base is here on Harbor Drive in San Diego, and has been merged with the minewarfare school that use to be in Texas. With that being said, the navy has focused less and less on ASW, and has resulted in several well documented cases of submarines, both in training and non-training events, getting dangerously close to important ships. Furthermore, many of its ASW assets have been retired or are reaching the end of their service life.
Apparently someone in Washington thought that the end of the Cold War ment that submaries no longer pose a threat. Oh, I'd hate to be on the recieving end of hard lesson learned when that happens.

[nikimcbee]

I wonder if there is a way to chase the whales out of the area, then do the sonar tests.

[joegrundman]

I think that's what was implied as the Navy's intention. If it's an exercise, do a couple of low power pings to scare them off first, or something like that.

[Zachstar]

Give it a little time, this to will probably get overturned regardless of the lack of hard evidence.It can't. And the Supreme Court rarely revisits cases that it has already ruled on. This is pretty much a permanent deal.

-S

The supreme court is not that powerful. Congress can easily overturn them with a law signed in by the president. Then the supreme court can choose if it wants to do battle with congress on the issue or not.

[Molon Labe]

Give it a little time, this to will probably get overturned regardless of the lack of hard evidence.
Yeah... I expect the United Nations will be asked to overturn the US Supreme Court at the behest of the EU.

:arrgh!:
ROFLcopter!

The supreme court is not that powerful. Congress can easily overturn them with a law signed in by the president. Then the supreme court can choose if it wants to do battle with congress on the issue or not.
This isn't a pissing contest. The Court rules on the law as it is. If Congress changes the law, then the Court will rule on that law instead, subject to constitutional constraints, of course.

[geetrue]

Submarines hardly ever use the active sonar ... our captain on the Ethan Allen would make us take out the fuse to the BQS 4 sonar before we went on patrol just to make sure it didn't happen by accident.

Whales are beautiful and intelligent creatures. We were surrounded by whales for days sometimes or at least from one six hour watch and then twelve off and when we came back on watch they were still there just lumbering along like we were somekind of mother ship for them to be amused with.

Those pesky surface craft would drive us crazy with active echo ranging when they knew where we were ahead of time they wouldn't leave us alone.

But when it comes down to a whale or an emeny submarine ... so long whale.

[MothBalls]

I have a question, trying to learn something.

Do any other countries use similar technologies?

If the answer is yes, then...

Do they have the same issues?

Anyone trying to stop them from using it?

[Frame57]

I was just watching this on the news, and it seemed to make the following points

- the Navy acknowledged that very powerful active sonar can kill or maim whales, but that was sadly a price that needed to be paid

- that it was ASW, not submarines, that used the sonar - (and i remember reading somewhere that this is more important now because modern nuke boats are very quiet and so passive sonar is not as useful as it was in the cold war)

- that despite their victory in the courts, navy personnel also enjoy looking at whales, and would attempt to take care to avoid using it if there are whales nearby, if this is practical.Yep! Subs rarely use active sonar.