(German) Die Größe des Verlierers

[Skybird]

This is - for Germans - an uncomfortable essay which I nevertheless consider to be worth to reflect about. Unfortunately, the Tagesspiegel publishes no English edition. Maybe the author is forgetting a bit that the campaign was a feast of mudslinging as well when he hails the politeness of American politicians, nevertheless: by general direction he aims at - he has a point.
Die Größe des Verlierers

Malte Lehming über den kulturellen Graben zwischen Europa und den USA


Berlin - Dass die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika dem alten europäischen Kontinent in vielen Belangen überlegen sind, ist bekannt. In der Malerei kommen die entscheidenden Impulse seit Jahrzehnten aus den USA, ebenso in der Musik (allenfalls England kann mithalten). In der Kinokultur setzt Hollywood unangefochten Maßstäbe. Neue Ausdrucks- und Verbreitungsformen wie Zeichentrick und Internet tragen ebenfalls den US-Stempel. Und nicht zuletzt auf dem Gebiet der Forschung und Wissenschaft führt uns das amerikanische Modell regelmäßig seine Dominanz vor. Von dort kommen die meisten Nobelpreisträger, sämtliche Talente dieser Welt strömen dahin. Mit der Wahl Barack Obamas schließlich hat sich die Gesellschaft des Landes als die fortschrittlichste des ganzen Westens erwiesen.

Nun kontern verbiesterte Europäer gern mit der Häme, dafür kenne der gemeine Amerikaner nicht einmal die Hauptstadt von Dänemark, woraus dieser Europäer auf fehlendes Allgemeinwissen schließt. Damit aber schießt er aus zwei Gründen am Tor vorbei. Erstens kennen noch weniger Europäer die Hauptstadt vom Bundesstaat Montana, der erheblich größer ist als Dänemark. Zweitens ist Europa für Amerikaner weit weniger wichtig als Amerika für Europäer. Zu glauben, ein Amerikaner müsse die Hauptstadt Dänemarks kennen, ist Hybris.

Auf keinem Gebiet indes wird der kulturelle Vorsprung Amerikas sichtbarer als bei den Umgangsformen. Benimm, Takt, Höflichkeit, Zivilität: Da setzt die neue Welt Maßstäbe (wofür sich jener verbiesterte Europäer gern mit dem Vorwurf der Oberflächlichkeit rächt). In amerikanischen Großstädten etwa ist jeder darauf bedacht, dass der Verkehr fließt, während bei uns jeder auf seinem Recht pocht (der andere muss ausweichen!!).

Wer an all dem weiter zweifelt, möge sich die Reden von Obama und John McCain nach der Wahl anhören. Immer und immer wieder. Wie viel Großherzigkeit, Anstand und Respekt darin enthalten sind! Selbst George W. Bush bewies Größe. Und bei uns? Unwillkürlich tauchen die Bilder nach der letzten Bundestagswahl auf. Gerhard Schröder neben Angela Merkel in der Elefantenrunde. Er höhnt und spottet, sie druckst herum. Wie peinlich, auch ohne Vergleich. Und nachher dann wurden Schröders Ausfälle sogar als maskulines Alphatiergehabe geadelt. McCain, Bush und Schröder: Im Abgang zeigt sich der wahre Charakter. Beschämender für Deutschland kann der direkte Vergleich nicht sein. Und kaum aufschlussreicher.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/kommentare/auf-den-punkt/USA;art15890,2655755

[AntEater]

Sadly this forum and others have disproven this article.
This is the usual wishful thinking of US fanbois.
McCain really showed style, his supporters did not, however.

This article is worthless, but it always depresses me how the political right and left both love to put down the german people:
The left does it because we don't love the turks too much, the right because we don't love the americans too much.

[Bewolf]

I agree to Anteater. Though the articles has some valid points, it's by far not as articulated as it makes it out to be. Especially in recent years "lots" has changed, also on a cultural entertainment level, where US productions got som healthy competition, especially in the music area.

Besides, the capital of a souvereign nation is still a bit of a difference in comparison to a US state capital. Then again, I'd be happy if certain folks were able to place the state of Denmark within Europe in the first place. Or that Europe is not a single country where everybody speaks french. Naming Kopenhagen is pretty low on the wishlist with such issues to start with.

[Skybird]

Sadly this forum and others have disproven this article.
This is the usual wishful thinking of US fanbois.
McCain really showed style, his supporters did not, however.

This article is worthless, but it always depresses me how the political right and left both love to put down the german people:
The left does it because we don't love the turks too much, the right because we don't love the americans too much.
This forum is not made of a representative sample of the American population, AntEater. Certain professional and social circles are over-represented here, and very much so.

On us Germans strangling ourselves in the garrottes of the left and right, I cannot disagree, though. We give a hilarious image of schizophrenia by that. but what do you expect from a people that after WWII got every national identity being pressed out of it's soul? the german nation was to be destroyed once and for all, forever. Only during football world championships we slide into an alternate universe for three weeks, and there dream a dream of being a nation. when it'S over, we go back into our national void, without feeling a real identity. We just have history to lecture about - and mistake that with feeling identity. But that is like the difference between the chemical formula for a perfume, and the smell of the perfume itself.

[AntEater]

McCain, for showing that greatness was booed by his own supporters.
Enough said..

[Skybird]

And we have Nazi demonstrations and skinheads holding up Nazi paroles. are they representative for all those who are unhappy with the government, or german policies?

Don't give the booers so much credit, neither on MacCain's rallies (whom do you expect there? Democrats? Humanitarians? Atheists?) nor here in this forum. They are a part of american society, but they are not the majority of it. On TV they also showed a lot of Republican voters, who understood the social and cultural changes that took place in their home areas over the past years, and resulted in the vote as it is, and maybe they were not happy with Obama's win, but they accepted that time and mood are changing - that's life.

[Bewolf]

Sadly this forum and others have disproven this article.
This is the usual wishful thinking of US fanbois.
McCain really showed style, his supporters did not, however.

This article is worthless, but it always depresses me how the political right and left both love to put down the german people:
The left does it because we don't love the turks too much, the right because we don't love the americans too much. This forum is not made of a representative sample of the American population, AntEater. Certain professional and social circles are over-represented here, and very much so.

On us Germans strangling ourselves in the garrottes of the left and right, I cannot disagree, though. We give a hilarious image of schizophrenia by that. but what do you expect from a people that after WWII got every national identity being pressed out of it's soul? the german nation was to be destroyed once and for all, forever. Only during football world championships we slide into an alternate universe for three weeks, and there dream a dream of being a nation. when it'S over, we go back into our national void, without feeling a real identity. We just have history to lecture about - and mistake that with feeling identity. But that is like the difference between the chemical formula for a perfume, and the smell of the perfume itself.
I need to disagree here. What you describe is changing atm, and changing big time. It's a process that started about 10 years ago, had it's first climax in recognizing the bombings of german cities and from there on graduadtly developed further. When in former times documentaries about the war and the past before that was like a report from other countries, lately the tone changed. Subtly, but if you have a certain sensitivity towards that topic you will notice that instead of "the germans..., the holy roman empire....etc" the labelling has changed to a "we". A prime example is the ZDF documentary "Die Deutschen", running on Saturdays. The premise of the show is "where do we come from, what is our past". While in former times Germany started in 1949, sometimes 1945, now these 13 years of dictatorship are more and more just becoming just a short episode in the much longer history.

Other subtle differences are observeable whereever you look. That may be the active singing of the german hymn at sport championships, it may be the ongoing discussion in the media how to label the current war in Afghanistan. This debate alone would have been impossible just 10 years ago. If anybody labeled such a conflict, with german troops participating, a "war", there would have been an outcry in the feuilletons. Now it is exactly those feuilletons advertising to name the facts as they are. Then check movies like "U-900", a movie parody over "Das Boot", making fun of the Wehrmacht in general. Another boundary broken there, similiar to more serious movies like "Der Untergang", where Hitler is displayed on screen for the first time in a german movie. Last but not least, germans are not bowing down anymore once anybody says "hey you, you killed jews and started the war", giving such a person the finger.

I am not sure what to think of these developments yet, if we are on a path to a healthy self esteem recogizing there is a long and at times even glorious past before Hitler came to power, or if we are drifting into some kind of stupid nationlism 2. Reich style coupled with an american or french style arrogance.
But the old after war attitudes certainly vanish at a rapid pace both on a domestic and an international level.

[Bewolf]

And we have Nazi demonstrations and skinheads holding up Nazi paroles. are they representative for all those who are unhappy with the government, or german policies?

Don't give the booers so much credit, neither on MacCain's rallies (whom do you expect there? Democrats? Humanitarians? Atheists?) nor here in this forum. They are a part of american society, but they are not the majority of it. On TV they also showed a lot of Republican voters, who understood the social and cultural changes that took place in their home areas over the past years, and resulted in the vote as it is, and maybe they were not happy with Obama's win, but they accepted that time and mood are changing - that's life.

A population is represented by it's most vocal members. If these are set lose, and the majority stays quiet, even in the case they are of different opinion, then it's their own fault. That is why Germany deserved what it got in WW2, and that is why other countries are judged by the actions of such ppl as well.

What was the phrase like again? Evil suceeds when the good guys look away or something? Anyways that is what it is all about. This does not apply to countries only, but ideologies in general.

[AntEater]

PS, the 2nd article comment is by me
:)

[Skybird]

Sadly this forum and others have disproven this article.
This is the usual wishful thinking of US fanbois.
McCain really showed style, his supporters did not, however.

This article is worthless, but it always depresses me how the political right and left both love to put down the german people:
The left does it because we don't love the turks too much, the right because we don't love the americans too much. This forum is not made of a representative sample of the American population, AntEater. Certain professional and social circles are over-represented here, and very much so.

On us Germans strangling ourselves in the garrottes of the left and right, I cannot disagree, though. We give a hilarious image of schizophrenia by that. but what do you expect from a people that after WWII got every national identity being pressed out of it's soul? the german nation was to be destroyed once and for all, forever. Only during football world championships we slide into an alternate universe for three weeks, and there dream a dream of being a nation. when it'S over, we go back into our national void, without feeling a real identity. We just have history to lecture about - and mistake that with feeling identity. But that is like the difference between the chemical formula for a perfume, and the smell of the perfume itself.
I need to disagree here. What you describe is changing atm, and changing big time. It's a process that started about 10 years ago, had it's first climax in recognizing the bombings of german cities and from there on graduadtly developed further. When in former times documentaries about the war and the past before that was like a report from other countries, lately the tone changed. Subtly, but if you have a certain sensitivity towards that topic you will notice that instead of "the germans..., the holy roman empire....etc" the labelling has changed to a "we". A prime example is the ZDF documentary "Die Deutschen", running on Saturdays. The premise of the show is "where do we come from, what is our past". While in former times Germany started in 1949, sometimes 1945, now these 13 years of dictatorship are more and more just becoming just a short episode in the much longer history.

Other subtle differences are observeable whereever you look. That may be the active singing of the german hymn at sport championships, it may be the ongoing discussion in the media how to label the current war in Afghanistan. This debate alone would have been impossible just 10 years ago. If anybody labeled such a conflict, with german troops participating, a "war", there would have been an outcry in the feuilletons. Now it is exactly those feuilletons advertising to name the facts as they are. Then check movies like "U-900", a movie parody over "Das Boot", making fun of the Wehrmacht in general. Another boundary broken there, similiar to more serious movies like "Der Untergang", where Hitler is displayed on screen for the first time in a german movie. Last but not least, germans are not bowing down anymore once anybody says "hey you, you killed jews and started the war", giving such a person the finger.

I am not sure what to think of these developments yet, if we are on a path to a healthy self esteem recogizing there is a long and at times even glorious past before Hitler came to power, or if we are drifting into some kind of stupid nationlism 2. Reich style coupled with an american or french style arrogance.
But the old after war attitudes certainly vanish at a rapid pace both on a domestic and an international level.
Possible that I indeed underesimate the most recent developements there, but again: most recent developements, means: a small handfull of years at best. against it I see the trend of German politics to constantly negate themseves on the internantional level, especially in the eu: if you are right in what you say, then it is limited to the politcal middle and right-leaning group of the population, with politics and the whole left-leaning group not wanting to know much of it and instead warning of it alltogether.

[Skybird]

And we have Nazi demonstrations and skinheads holding up Nazi paroles. are they representative for all those who are unhappy with the government, or german policies?

Don't give the booers so much credit, neither on MacCain's rallies (whom do you expect there? Democrats? Humanitarians? Atheists?) nor here in this forum. They are a part of american society, but they are not the majority of it. On TV they also showed a lot of Republican voters, who understood the social and cultural changes that took place in their home areas over the past years, and resulted in the vote as it is, and maybe they were not happy with Obama's win, but they accepted that time and mood are changing - that's life.

A population is represented by it's most vocal members. If these are set lose, and the majority stays quiet, even in the case they are of different opinion, then it's their own fault. That is why Germany deserved what it got in WW2, and that is why other countries are judged by the actions of such ppl as well.

What was the phrase like again? Evil suceeds when the good guys look away or something? Anyways that is what it is all about. This does not apply to countries only, but ideologies in general.
The most "vocal members" are a small part of that group that lost this election, if I may remind you. ;) I understand where you come from (and I claim the same thing like you regarding Islam and Muhammedan subculture in Germany and in the West, so I truly undestand your argument indeed). But not only do these vocal members represent a smaller group inside their own camp, but they even have been actively engaged and driven back by the majoirty of the whole national population. If anything the election was not a display of lacking interest. More people than ever before went voting. And that was not to allow the most vocal group representing them any longer.

[Bewolf]

Sadly this forum and others have disproven this article.
This is the usual wishful thinking of US fanbois.
McCain really showed style, his supporters did not, however.

This article is worthless, but it always depresses me how the political right and left both love to put down the german people:
The left does it because we don't love the turks too much, the right because we don't love the americans too much. This forum is not made of a representative sample of the American population, AntEater. Certain professional and social circles are over-represented here, and very much so.

On us Germans strangling ourselves in the garrottes of the left and right, I cannot disagree, though. We give a hilarious image of schizophrenia by that. but what do you expect from a people that after WWII got every national identity being pressed out of it's soul? the german nation was to be destroyed once and for all, forever. Only during football world championships we slide into an alternate universe for three weeks, and there dream a dream of being a nation. when it'S over, we go back into our national void, without feeling a real identity. We just have history to lecture about - and mistake that with feeling identity. But that is like the difference between the chemical formula for a perfume, and the smell of the perfume itself.
I need to disagree here. What you describe is changing atm, and changing big time. It's a process that started about 10 years ago, had it's first climax in recognizing the bombings of german cities and from there on graduadtly developed further. When in former times documentaries about the war and the past before that was like a report from other countries, lately the tone changed. Subtly, but if you have a certain sensitivity towards that topic you will notice that instead of "the germans..., the holy roman empire....etc" the labelling has changed to a "we". A prime example is the ZDF documentary "Die Deutschen", running on Saturdays. The premise of the show is "where do we come from, what is our past". While in former times Germany started in 1949, sometimes 1945, now these 13 years of dictatorship are more and more just becoming just a short episode in the much longer history.

Other subtle differences are observeable whereever you look. That may be the active singing of the german hymn at sport championships, it may be the ongoing discussion in the media how to label the current war in Afghanistan. This debate alone would have been impossible just 10 years ago. If anybody labeled such a conflict, with german troops participating, a "war", there would have been an outcry in the feuilletons. Now it is exactly those feuilletons advertising to name the facts as they are. Then check movies like "U-900", a movie parody over "Das Boot", making fun of the Wehrmacht in general. Another boundary broken there, similiar to more serious movies like "Der Untergang", where Hitler is displayed on screen for the first time in a german movie. Last but not least, germans are not bowing down anymore once anybody says "hey you, you killed jews and started the war", giving such a person the finger.

I am not sure what to think of these developments yet, if we are on a path to a healthy self esteem recogizing there is a long and at times even glorious past before Hitler came to power, or if we are drifting into some kind of stupid nationlism 2. Reich style coupled with an american or french style arrogance.
But the old after war attitudes certainly vanish at a rapid pace both on a domestic and an international level. Possible that I indeed underesimate the most recent developements there, but again: most recent developements, means: a small handfull of years at best. against it I see the trend of German politics to constantly negate themseves on the internantional level, especially in the eu: if you are right in what you say, then it is limited to the politcal middle and right-leaning group of the population, with politics and the whole left-leaning group not wanting to know much of it and instead warning of it alltogether.

I don't know. It certainly appears as if the government more often then not takes the compromise, don't be the baddy road. But then I have to remember the Kohl years, cheekbook diplmacy, compared to Schröders policy of "no more money" (carried by Steinmeier and Müntefering, btw) and lately Steinbrücks attack on Switzerland, clearly flexing his smuscles in a way unimagineable in the immidiate after cold war years. Yeah, maybe it is a recent development only (though I think this goes back quite a couple more years, only now does it slowly become recogized stance and mainstream). I think this change is just too gradual and subtle to be immidiatly recogizeable, but I am amazed the Spiegel or another magazine didn't jump on it already. If you make a couple comparisons on all levels of society towards their stances and behaviour 10 years ago and now you will see some grave, very grave differences.

[Bewolf]

And we have Nazi demonstrations and skinheads holding up Nazi paroles. are they representative for all those who are unhappy with the government, or german policies?

Don't give the booers so much credit, neither on MacCain's rallies (whom do you expect there? Democrats? Humanitarians? Atheists?) nor here in this forum. They are a part of american society, but they are not the majority of it. On TV they also showed a lot of Republican voters, who understood the social and cultural changes that took place in their home areas over the past years, and resulted in the vote as it is, and maybe they were not happy with Obama's win, but they accepted that time and mood are changing - that's life.
A population is represented by it's most vocal members. If these are set lose, and the majority stays quiet, even in the case they are of different opinion, then it's their own fault. That is why Germany deserved what it got in WW2, and that is why other countries are judged by the actions of such ppl as well.

What was the phrase like again? Evil suceeds when the good guys look away or something? Anyways that is what it is all about. This does not apply to countries only, but ideologies in general. The most "vocal members" are a small part of that group that lost this election, if I may remind you. ;) I understand where you come from (and I claim the same thing like you regarding Islam and Muhammedan subculture in Germany and in the West, so I truly undestand your argument indeed). But not only do these vocal members represent a smaller group inside their own camp, but they even have been actively engaged and driven back by the majoirty of the whole national population. If anything the election was not a display of lacking interest. More people than ever before went voting. And that was not to allow the most vocal group representing them any longer.
In this last point I agree. But that's already observable here and abroad. This election certainly raised confidence in the american population itself. But keep in mind, these same ppl also elected Bush into office a second term back then, despite knowing all the stuff, after been lied to openly and after Bushs horrific foreign policy was out in the open already. They knew, and voted him anyways. This was the point where it was not regarded as Bush mistakes over anotherwise great country anymore...after this second election america as a whole was, rightfully or not, seen as a monster. A country so driven by fear it threw everything over board that made it so great in the first place, above all the stance for global human rights. It's only now this is to hopefully change again. The more suprising the positive reactions whereever you look. So I do not think at all it is fair to use this comparison to do a little bit of Schröder bashing in a pretty conservative newspaper.

P.S.

Look at this thread, Skybird.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144109
Grown up, mature and, of that I am sure, very respectable men more then willing to share a beer should we ever meet them in real life. Nevertheless, look at these kinds of reactions. Now look how many other of their own party hold them in check, making up for it, staying descent above their understandable emotions and thus safe that partys reputation? This never happend over here, this scale, with such bitterness.