May I ask, What is wrong with the left coast???

[1480]

This sickens me to no end, why is the subject of sexuality brought up, other than a boy has a "weenus" and a girl has a "china", to 5-6 year olds? I'm leaving a link so you do not think I am rambling.


http://shavedlongcock.blogspot.com/2008/11/school-clams-up-on-gay-pledge-cards.html

[Blacklight]

I have no problem with what that teacher did. It's no different than having the students sign a pledge card not to call someone the "n" word or other racial slurs. It's not meant to be a plege plege. The purpose was obviously to teach the kids not to be racist or sexist. This teacher was teaching tollerance. Any age is appropriate for that in my opinion as long as it's done well. It does no good to hide gays and lesbiens from kids as they are out there and they SHOULDN'T be hidden. This should NOT even be an issue.

[1480]

I have no problem with what that teacher did. It's no different than having the students sign a pledge card not to call someone the "n" word or other racial slurs. It's not meant to be a plege plege. The purpose was obviously to teach the kids not to be racist or sexist. This teacher was teaching tollerance. Any age is appropriate for that in my opinion as long as it's done well. It does no good to hide gays and lesbiens from kids as they are out there and they SHOULDN'T be hidden. This should NOT even be an issue.

Again, I bring up the age issue. What age does a person discover sexuality??? Obviously, you have never had a child!

[Stealth Hunter]

Since you know and have a child, tell us, at what age should a child be taught these things?

[1480]

Since you know and have a child, tell us, at what age should a child be taught these things?

About non-NORMAL homo sapien physical relationships? NOT AT SCHOOL.

[Blacklight]

Better they learn from school rather than some biggot or their biggoted peers teach them. This isn't an issue of teaching kids about sex. This is an issue of teaching the kids tollerance toward different social groups. This is no different than teaching them tollerance of blacks, whites, Muslems, Christians, etc...
Sex does not come into the equasion with what this teacher was trying to teach.
The only reason this is even causeing a problem for a segment of people is that they're biggoted and want to "shield" their youngsters from the "devil" of gays/lesbians. Kids need to learn tollerance at a young age. They're never too young to learn that.

[1480]

Better they learn from school rather than some biggot or their biggoted peers teach them.


Are you accusing me of something? I bring up the AGE of the child and y'all start saying all kinds of bad things. So in your fun world Blacklight, you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

[Stealth Hunter]

Since you know and have a child, tell us, at what age should a child be taught these things?

About non-NORMAL homo sapien physical relationships? NOT AT SCHOOL.

Why the homophobia? I don't feel comfortable around gays, but I don't bash them or think they're evil or immoral. They have a right to love who they want to. "Inalienable Rights" (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?) mean anything to anyone anymore?:88)

[Stealth Hunter]

Better they learn from school rather than some biggot or their biggoted peers teach them.


Are you accusing me of something? I bring up the AGE of the child and y'all start saying all kinds of bad things. So in your fun world Blacklight, you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

Maybe it was the "non-NORMAL" part that got him worked up. It disturbs me when people try to define what is "normal" in these respects. I mean, what should be normal? Mainstream opinion? Opinion of the law? Religious outlook?

[Blacklight]

you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

You're missing my point. This isn't about teaching kids about sexuality. The teacher was NOT doing that. It's about teaching them to be tollerant of others. I'm not accusing you of anything. I just think you're missing my point.
If this teacher passed out tickets for the students to sign saying that they wouldn't use racial slurs or bad language about blacks for example, would this even be an issue ?
I repeat. This teacher was not teaching sexual relations. This teacher was teaching tollerance of another culture. I reiterate. A child can't learn tollerance early enough.

[1480]

Since you know and have a child, tell us, at what age should a child be taught these things?

About non-NORMAL homo sapien physical relationships? NOT AT SCHOOL.

Why the homophobia? I don't feel comfortable around gays, but I don't bash them or think they're evil or immoral. They have a right to love who they want to. "Inalienable Rights" (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?) mean anything to anyone anymore?:88)

SH, never said I hate gays...where did I say that? I actually have quite a few friends that are gay. NO PROBLEM on that front. I just asked a simple question that obviously has never been experienced by the two detractor's on this thread and would like to take me up on this.

Don't know what you were doing in KINDERGARTEN, but I certainly do not remember tolerence lessons of Adam & Steve.

[Stealth Hunter]

you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

You're missing my point. This isn't about teaching kids about sexuality. It's about teaching them to be tollerant of others. I'm not accusing you of anything. I just think you're missing my point.

Exactly, but he'll just say "Oh, but it still talks about sexuality!"

People, get real for a second. Kids are GOING to be exposed to this stuff someday. Trying to shield them from everything like this is just going to make them a lot worse off in life. How would you prefer it be done: in school, off TV, from the Internet? I'd prefer it in school, as done by a doctor.

SH, never said I hate gays...where did I say that? I actually have quite a few friends that are gay. NO PROBLEM on that front. I just asked a simple question that obviously has never been experienced by the two detractor's on this thread and would like to take me up on this.

Then what did you mean by "non-normal homo sapien physical relationships"?

[1480]

you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

You're missing my point. This isn't about teaching kids about sexuality. The teacher was NOT doing that. It's about teaching them to be tollerant of others. I'm not accusing you of anything. I just think you're missing my point.
If this teacher passed out tickets for the students to sign saying that they wouldn't use racial slurs or bad language about blacks for example, would this even be an issue ?
I repeat. This teacher was not teaching sexual relations. This teacher was teaching tollerance of another culture. I reiterate. A child can't learn tollerance early enough.

Have you ever raised a child? A child is innocent until they learn hatred, intolerance and everything else. So why does a school have to impart a quality on a child that should not be there in the first place? BUT the child must "sign" a pledge that they will never say bad stuff, so they can throw them out of school quicker??? Not sure of that .

[1480]

you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

You're missing my point. This isn't about teaching kids about sexuality. It's about teaching them to be tollerant of others. I'm not accusing you of anything. I just think you're missing my point.

Exactly, but he'll just say "Oh, but it still talks about sexuality!"

People, get real for a second. Kids are GOING to be exposed to this stuff someday. Trying to shield them from everything like this is just going to make them a lot worse off in life. How would you prefer it be done: in school, off TV, from the Internet? I'd prefer it in school, as done by a doctor.

SH, never said I hate gays...where did I say that? I actually have quite a few friends that are gay. NO PROBLEM on that front. I just asked a simple question that obviously has never been experienced by the two detractor's on this thread and would like to take me up on this.

Then what did you mean by "non-normal homo sapien physical relationships"?

By science and Darwin. Sex by its definition is a typology or definition of procreation. And your next humdinger is????

[Blacklight]

Don't know what you were doing in KINDERGARTEN, but I certainly do not remember tolerence lessons of Adam & Steve.

Times are different now. Back when I was in school, gay culture was seen as an underground and hidden kind of thing that was persecuted and spat on by 90% of the mainstream populous. I mean heck.. AIDS was blamed on them back then. Now, gays are out in the open. They're fighting the discrimination and they're out there. Kids are going to encounter gays and lesbians and often times, the biggotry that surrounds them. They're going to need the nescissary information in order to understand what's going on. They should NOT be shielded from this no more than they should be shielded from Black issues, or Muslem issues, etc..
It's much easier to teach tollerance at a young age rather than at an older age when they get more set in their ways.

[1480]

Don't know what you were doing in KINDERGARTEN, but I certainly do not remember tolerence lessons of Adam & Steve.

Times are different now. Back when I was in school, gay culture was seen as an underground and hidden kind of thing that was persecuted and spat on by 90% of the mainstream populous. I mean heck.. AIDS was blamed on them back then. Now, gays are out in the open. They're fighting the discrimination and they're out there. Kids are going to encounter gays and lesbians and often times, the biggotry that surrounds them. They're going to need the nescissary information in order to understand what's going on. They should NOT be shielded from this no more than they should be shielded from Black issues, or Muslem issues, etc..
It's much easier to teach tollerance at a young age rather than at an older age when they get more set in their ways.

I kind of understand what you are saying, and I will give props on that for what you are trying to convey, because there is way too much nonsense going on in this world, because I see this everyday. What I am pi$$ed off about is, a teacher had children, who still wet their beds on a nightly basis, sign their names to a card that they have no idea of what is on there. To pledge a good intentioned idea but, still has no foundation in law but will be the basis of them getting thrown out in third grade when they something, that might be offesive to someone. You want to bring up differences in people with their skin color, I AGREE WHOLE HEARTEDLY. Then bring it up that way. It is more of a tangible subject, then someones sexual preference, which is not so tangible to a 5 and/or 6 year old.

[nikimcbee]

This sickens me to no end, why is the subject of sexuality brought up, other than a boy has a "weenus" and a girl has a "china", to 5-6 year olds? I'm leaving a link so you do not think I am rambling.


http://shavedlongcock.blogspot.com/2008/11/school-clams-up-on-gay-pledge-cards.html

Welcome to the leftcoast.:oops: There is no shortage of weird ideas out here that get pushed on kids. The only thing i can think of, is that people around here are much less formal around here than the Midwest.:roll: I agree with you though, these unprofessional teachers need to be driven out of the industry.

[PeriscopeDepth]

At what age are kids calling things "gay" in place of "stupid" these days? It was pretty young when I was in middle school. Probably not kindergarten, but certainly second grade. But then again, I went to a Catholic middle school. So who knows if that's an outlier.

PD

[Buddahaid]

Since you know and have a child, tell us, at what age should a child be taught these things?
About non-NORMAL homo sapien physical relationships? NOT AT SCHOOL.
Why the homophobia? I don't feel comfortable around gays, but I don't bash them or think they're evil or immoral. They have a right to love who they want to. "Inalienable Rights" (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?) mean anything to anyone anymore?:88)

I find the fear of homosexuals and more liberal minded people by the more conservative minded people at least interesting. I said fear, because that's what it looks like to me. If you are secure in your value and belief systems, this whole debate would be pointless. Let the sinners burn in H*ll as mainstream Christianity believes, but does not seem to think God can handle without help on earth. Your own doubts of your faith are showing. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil does not mean persecute those you find deviant! As far as when to teach about sexuality? That is often answered by the children themselves with no help from anyone else. They are not as naive as the parents may think! The public school system allows parents to exclude their children from any content they find inappropriate. The teacher in this case was stepping into a gray area, and should have at least worded the pledge to be unspecific regarding the target of harassment in deference to those who would take offense. THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED BY THOSE WHO WISHED TO LIVE AND WORSHIP AS THEY SAW FIT. NOT TO BE TOLD HOW THAT SHOULD BE BY THE RULING CLASS. Having shouted that out, obviously a free for all would not work. It's the definitions of what is harmful, or infringes on others that we argue.

Am I gay? No. Am I a liberal? Yes (liberty and justice for all). Am I religious? Not in the mainstream way. Do I own guns? Yes (liberty again). Do I live in California? Yes (born there). Do I believe in a strong military? Yes, the world has not matured enough to have it any other way.

Buddahaid

[Frederf]

I see a lot of people reading something into this that really isn't there. I'm a 25 year old college graduate and recent participant of the California public school system. Kids in middle and high school call each other names all the time including "anti-LGBT" ones.

I see this as an attempt to achieve a preemptive strike against calling each other bad names for the purposes of keeping behavior under control. Not all actions of the school is "instruction" on the academic matter but rather a large portion of school actions are for the purposes of keeping kids behaving long to learn something and possibly not emotionally scar each other. This is the latter.

This is not "teaching kids to be gays and lesbians" this is "teaching kids not to call each other hurtful names." I can see nothing wrong with a school delivering a message of moral behavior. I'm sure some people condone being hurtful to people based on their sexual orientation to the east of me, but not on the ground under my feet.

---

Let me pull out a good example of ignorance:
Since you know and have a child, tell us, at what age should a child be taught these things?About non-NORMAL homo sapien physical relationships? NOT AT SCHOOL.

This is where ignorant people do not understand the distinction between "instruction about X" and "teaching X." The job of a school is to educate the student about the subject matter. Human sociology in reference to sexual orientations is a perfectly valid academic topic if taught as such. "There are such people as homosexuals, this is what they are, what they do, their society and history" is certainly the place of a school to inform. Facts are never offensive.

While I'm a scientist and an atheist I think that teaching certain things in school like The Bible and Creationism is great, in history or social studies class where it belongs. For example The Bible is a very important book (as is religion) in the sense of human history and it would benefit any one, regardless of religion, to know about it.

Similarly I think you can teach Creationism (heck, what would that take, a week?) in school, just not in science class... because, it's not science. I can never understand why people get all up in arms wanting to teach creationism in science class. We don't teach Creationism in science class for the same reason we don't teach French literature in science class... BECAUSE THEY AREN'T MOTHERFLIPPIN' SICENCE!

[CCIP]

I also don't see a problem with this. And this is no doubt a response to an actual problem. "Gay" and "fag" are the "cool" words to throw at people these days. These things spread like crazy around schools. Of course it should firstly be the parents' responsibility to keep this controlled, but I don't see why schools can't have some involvement in it, either. I know back when I was in school, I'd get a slap on the back of the head from parents and teachers alike if I went around throwing words like this.

I am opposed to promoting "LGBT lifestyle" in schools, but I really don't see why kids shouldn't be alerted to the fact that using these names in the playground is wrong. And you can't keep kids completely sheltered. If a word like this goes around schools - stop them, before it gets pretty much just fixed into their vocabulary.

[Skybird]

did I get this right? This took place in a Kindergarten...?

I don't know how it is in America, but in Germany Kindergärten are filled with 2-5 year old.

[CCIP]

did I get this right? This took place in a Kindergarten...?

I don't know how it is in America, but in Germany Kindergärten are filled with 2-5 year old.

5-year-olds it was.

You'd be surprised how many young kids I hear constantly calling each other "gay" around here, though.

[Skybird]

No, I wouldn't, but it is talking about stuff they snapped up, not stuff that they really know and understand. Same is true for that toylike treaty they had to "sign". It is beyond the mental horizon of that age, and treating little kids like small adults is - well, I bite my lips.

[1480]

Hear me out a minute: I am not ignorant, nor am I a (insert any counterculture tag)-phobe. I gave up on the church I was raised into, for reasons too numerous to take up bandwidth here. 4-6 year olds, adding the caveat, that are being raised by their parents, should not have certain words in their vocabulary. I know for a fact that hatred is a learned behavior, along with sharing and responsibility. I don't know about you, but a school's number one priority is to educate. Would it not be irresponsible for an institution whose main goal is to teach, just "ban" words without giving their definition? So, if you tell a 5 year old that saying "fag" is not nice (which I agree with) but, do not instruct a child of the word's meaning, is that not in fact a grave omission of the educator's duty to educate? Telling someone that they will not say the word "jujubee" without giving them the definition of the word is just outright censorship rather then have them develop a moral system that will give them the choice to preclude said word.

It's the definition of the word "fag" that would be taught to a 4-6 year old that enrages me.

[Frederf]

Your post confuses me. You said it's right to explain why certain words are not allowed fully but you are enraged by a young kid would be given the definition?

[Zachstar]

Better they learn from school rather than some biggot or their biggoted peers teach them.

Are you accusing me of something? I bring up the AGE of the child and y'all start saying all kinds of bad things. So in your fun world Blacklight, you would want your 4-6 year old to learn about sexuality in schools, because they are not "biggoted?"

I am not sorry, but, I will not have my child taught about any type of sexuality at this age other then, what I mentioned before.

Then take your kid out of public school. That is your right. Just as it is my right to tell you that the age of hard headed age of hate has ended.

[Blacklight]

This is not "teaching kids to be gays and lesbians" this is "teaching kids not to call each other hurtful names." I can see nothing wrong with a school delivering a message of moral behavior.

This is exactly my point.
These kids weren't signing a legally binding document. It was more a symbolic kind of thing used as a teaching tool. This should not even BE an issue. :nope:

[1480]

Your post confuses me. You said it's right to explain why certain words are not allowed fully but you are enraged by a young kid would be given the definition?

You are right and I should have broken it down some more.

Why is it even brought up in the first place? Shouldn't this be taught at home? I do not expect my child to learn that hatred is wrong from a school. That is a parents job. If a child uses a word that is inappropriate, address it then through the definition system. My thing is why take a proactive approach to a problem that should be addressed at home?

Remember these are 4-6 year olds.


Then take your kid out of public school. That is your right. Just as it is my right to tell you that the age of hard headed age of hate has ended.


Ahhh Zach....

You are right, I do not have my child in public school. Yet 65% of my property tax bill goes to public school funding. So I'm penalized for wanting my child to have a private education. One who has to show a performance level, but does not get mandated by the nanny state to take out the pledge of allegience or offer condoms in grade school. Still I have to pay twice for this silliness. BTW, where are you going with the "age of hard headed age of hate?"

[Frederf]

Why is it even brought up in the first place? Shouldn't this be taught at home? I do not expect my child to learn that hatred is wrong from a school. That is a parents job. If a child uses a word that is inappropriate, address it then through the definition system. My thing is why take a proactive approach to a problem that should be addressed at home?

Remember these are 4-6 year olds.


Then take your kid out of public school. That is your right. Just as it is my right to tell you that the age of hard headed age of hate has ended.

Ahhh Zach....

You are right, I do not have my child in public school. Yet 65% of my property tax bill goes to public school funding. So I'm penalized for wanting my child to have a private education. One who has to show a performance level, but does not get mandated by the nanny state to take out the pledge of allegiance or offer condoms in grade school. Still I have to pay twice for this silliness. BTW, where are you going with the "age of hard headed age of hate?"
It's brought up in school because there's a demonstrated need for the schools to address it. You should expect a school to teach hatred is wrong especially when hatred at school becomes an obstacle for schools to perform their primary task. The reasons to take a proactive approach are obvious:

1. By preventing the issue before it happens you avoid the emotional damage that such actions bring.
2. Using a punishment-based method has negative side effects.

The idea that "it's a parent's job" is irrelevant if a parent is not doing it. It needs to get done and if the parents don't do it then the schools must. Letting the behavior go unchecked is not practical. It is not the right of a parent to let either their wayward child damage others or to let their child be damaged by undo exposure to hate at school. If at any time you thought it was, you were misinformed.

Also your taxes going toward public education is not a punishment but rather the cost that you pay to live in a society surrounded by people who have had access to education. This is the benefit for the tax money you pay whether you have any direct use of public education or not. Make no mistake, adults with no children still benefit from the public education system.

[1480]

Why is it even brought up in the first place? Shouldn't this be taught at home? I do not expect my child to learn that hatred is wrong from a school. That is a parents job. If a child uses a word that is inappropriate, address it then through the definition system. My thing is why take a proactive approach to a problem that should be addressed at home?

Remember these are 4-6 year olds.


Then take your kid out of public school. That is your right. Just as it is my right to tell you that the age of hard headed age of hate has ended.

Ahhh Zach....

You are right, I do not have my child in public school. Yet 65% of my property tax bill goes to public school funding. So I'm penalized for wanting my child to have a private education. One who has to show a performance level, but does not get mandated by the nanny state to take out the pledge of allegiance or offer condoms in grade school. Still I have to pay twice for this silliness. BTW, where are you going with the "age of hard headed age of hate?"
It's brought up in school because there's a demonstrated need for the schools to address it. You should expect a school to teach hatred is wrong especially when hatred at school becomes an obstacle for schools to perform their primary task. The reasons to take a proactive approach are obvious:

1. By preventing the issue before it happens you avoid the emotional damage that such actions bring.
2. Using a punishment-based method has negative side effects.

The idea that "it's a parent's job" is irrelevant if a parent is not doing it. It needs to get done and if the parents don't do it then the schools must. Letting the behavior go unchecked is not practical. It is not the right of a parent to let either their wayward child damage others or to let their child be damaged by undo exposure to hate at school. If at any time you thought it was, you were misinformed.

Also your taxes going toward public education is not a punishment but rather the cost that you pay to live in a society surrounded by people who have had access to education. This is the benefit for the tax money you pay whether you have any direct use of public education or not. Make no mistake, adults with no children still benefit from the public education system.

You know what, maybe if parents took a more active role in their child's life and did the right thing, maybe our juvenile court system would not be overburdened. It is a sad commentary of society today that valuable time is taken out of lessons to address hatred of any kind. I don't remember at any level of my educational experience that addressed treating others with respect and dignity. My mother and father took care of that, and I thank them still to this day.

Oh yeah, the benefits of tax money for public education: metal detectors in all entrances of Chicago public high schools. Off duty police for security. For terrorist attacks, no, because the little savages were never told right and wrong from their parents. Yet you argue that its the school's responsibility to address this. Obviously, its not working out too well.

I still lay the fault with the parents. The good ones get punished while the bad ones get free child care.

And I'm not sure where childless property owners benefit from the public education system, I thank you F, for the stimulating interlocution.

[Frederf]

If you wanted to argue that parenting should be better I'd be happy to join in but we're going to need someone to take up an opposing view ;) While I would agree that some public education dollars are not used with 100% correctness, I can't say it's all a waste.

What I meant about education dollars helping people indirectly is that funding for schools is like an investment in the human infrastructure of our society which benefits all.

Likewise been good discussing it with you. I even had to look up interlocution. Realize that my viewpoints are not as extreme as my arguments laid out but I merely take up such a one sided viewpoint when engaging in these kind of 1 v 1 debates.

[Task Force]

In my honest opinion, I dont think that 4-6 year olds should do this. Honestly, most kids that age dont even know what those words meen. At that age they shouldnt even be thinking about any thing like that. They should be concentrating on getting them to be good students, and transitioning them to school. I remember back when I was in kindergarden, almost none of us knew about gays and same sex relationships. (most of us didnt even know all of are numbers and letters yet) To be honest with you, some of the teachers I had shouldnt even have been teaching, If I had kids I wouldnt want them teaching my children about this. They should be concentrating on math, writeing, reading, and teaching them to act like humans instead of wild animals. I have much more to say about disiplin, but thats not what this topics about.

(I hope I dont make anyone not like me, this is my honest opinion)

[Blacklight]

The problem is that there are way too many parents out there who DON'T teach this. I'll reiterate. Kids are never too young to learn this lesson. The earlier either the parents or school starts teaching them about this stuff, the better. It's far easier to teach them young than waiting till they're older and set in their ways. This kind of teaching has no negative impact. If the kids are learning a positive thing, what's the problem ? This lesson was more about tollerance and behavior than anything else and I speak from past experience. A LOT of kids do NOT get this from home.
That lesson was not about teaching anything complicated about human relations. It was more a behavior control thing as said in the post above. They wouldn't teach it if they hadn't had a problem with it in the past.

[Task Force]

Yea, I see what you meen, Now if they can get them to control the rest of there issues. Heres what happens.

Elementary school> kid is rude and makes fun of other kids, elementary school allows this to happen> Elementary school sends there slime over to middle school and they do nothing about it> high school gets these people, and dose little to nothing to them and sends them to the world to cause chaos and be worthless.

Trust me, Ive been putting up with this school stuff for 11 years, and I have been pushed around for all of those 11 years, now if they would have done something about this in elementary school then it would more than likely not be happening now to me and numerious other kids. So there is actualy some good that could come out of this.:-? But then again, it may not sink in. (go in one ear and out the other)

[August]

Trust me, Ive been putting up with this school stuff for 11 years, and I have been pushed around for all of those 11 years, now if they would have done something about this in elementary school then it would more than likely not be happening now to me and numerious other kids. So there is actualy some good that could come out of this.:-? But then again, it may not sink in. (go in one ear and out the other)

Instead of just putting up with it did you ever think of fighting back?
The way to stop a bully is to stand up to him. They can't be social engineered out of existence, any more than can greed or lust, or loyalty or friendship, or any other human trait good or bad.

IMO Schools should confine themselves to teaching regular subjects like reading, writing and mathematics. I see way too many high school graduates unable to do these things on the most basic levels. Leave the social engineering tasks to the parents where it belongs.

[Task Force]

Ya know, Ive thought about that. But they have all there friends in there classes and Id have 6+ people jumping me at once.:shifty: I can deal with 3 but not a half a class. (almost happend last friday.):-? Had me in a corner of the class.:shifty:
(So far I have been choaked, jumped, shoved, hit, spit on, threatend, been called 1000s of names over 11 years. And the schools dont care 1%)

[1480]

Everyone here brings up solid thoughts to the topic except, I won't mention any handles. It's a threefold discussion: 1. I believe you do far greater harm to the development of a child when you just tell them they are doing wrong, without an explanation. To correct a child's behavior you need to address the action, describe why it is wrong and then come up with an alternative solution to correct the bad behavior. To tell a child that using the word "gay" is offensive, just does not cut the mustard. You have to tell them why and what it means. THATS the problem I am having with this. In order for you to address this problem you have to explain what "gay" is. Therein lies the problem, because you must delve into a subject that 4-6 year old is not ready for. 4-6 can start dealing with the concept of death, differentiation of sexes and races, but it's a large can of worms that even the well intentioned should not open up.

2. It becomes the nanny state's problem to raise our children. I bust my a$$ to make sure my child gets everything they need, whether it's material, my time, or lessons in values, morality, and life. I have seen too many kids get locked up for horrific actions against others. I've seen parents sent to parenting classes as part of their conditions for probation on child abuse cases. It throws my mind. Because of this, my child would get subjected to things in school that they have already learned at home. A remedial golden rule class if you will. A waste of time unfortunately.

3. Why didn't the parents have a say in this. Get their input and inform them why this course of action should be taken. Since it is not part of the normal curriculam should they not have a say so?

[Captain Vlad]

I thought about saying what I'd have done in that situation, but it'd just get you in trouble if you did it.

[1480]

Ya know, Ive thought about that. But they have all there friends in there classes and Id have 6+ people jumping me at once.:shifty: I can deal with 3 but not a half a class. (almost happend last friday.):-? Had me in a corner of the class.:shifty:
(So far I have been choaked, jumped, shoved, hit, spit on, threatend, been called 1000s of names over 11 years. And the schools dont care 1%)

If a school does not take any action, have you and your parents (I'm not trying to be ignorant, I am assuming you are under 18?) go to the police. Explain to them what has happened and that you have informed the school, but they never took any action and, if under 18, let your parents inform the officers that you would like to take them criminal court.

[Task Force]

Also the fact is a 5 or 6 year old dosent even know what they are talking about, most dont ever know what gay meens, they just hear it being used (on TV or by parents/relatives) and say it because they said it. Those kid probably will forget about that pledge in less than a week. Thats how kids are.

[Task Force]

oah yes, my parents have gone to the school, school board, ect. But nothing does any good.:-? Its just the horiable school system. They are overpacking the schools around here. (allowing trouble makers to get out of distric passes for schools other than the ones they are surspost to go to) My school has 600 more kids in it than it should.:huh:
Ever sence kindergarden I have been dealing with people, the first times people put there hands on me where when I was on the playground, Two kids jumped me and choked me untill I fell, then when I was eating my lunch some kid spit on me.

Now get this, I had a teacher allow a kid to throw a hand full of water on me, becuase a kid said I splashed him with water in the bathroom when I was washing my hands. That is a example of what is teaching in the school systems.

[Zachstar]

Trust me, Ive been putting up with this school stuff for 11 years, and I have been pushed around for all of those 11 years, now if they would have done something about this in elementary school then it would more than likely not be happening now to me and numerious other kids. So there is actualy some good that could come out of this.:-? But then again, it may not sink in. (go in one ear and out the other)
Instead of just putting up with it did you ever think of fighting back?
The way to stop a bully is to stand up to him. They can't be social engineered out of existence, any more than can greed or lust, or loyalty or friendship, or any other human trait good or bad.

IMO Schools should confine themselves to teaching regular subjects like reading, writing and mathematics. I see way too many high school graduates unable to do these things on the most basic levels. Leave the social engineering tasks to the parents where it belongs.

August has it ever dawned on you that honor in fighting in school has died LONG ago?

You fight back these days and you got EVERY one of his buddies waiting to kick your ass the first chance they get. That "Fight back" bull**** is just that these days.

[Task Force]

yea, Makes me wish my parents could afford private school.:shifty: The classes im in at this dump of a school are so bad, we havent learned nothing ever since the school year started (over 2 months ago)

[Blacklight]

yea, Makes me wish my parents could afford private school.:shifty: The classes im in at this dump of a school are so bad, we havent learned nothing ever since the school year started (over 2 months ago)
Not to change the subject but..

Words of wisdom from someone who's been there and I mean REALLY REALLY been there (I spent about 50% of my school life stuffed in lockers, and getting atomic wedgies) First off, it DOES get better once you get out of high school. Don't let it get in the way of your education like I did. I ended up with a LOT of making up to do. College is MUCH better.
It WILL make you a stronger person later on in life. You will NOT be the same person that you are now 5-10 years from now and neither will they. Heck, if I knew back then what I knew now, things would have been a LOT different in school for me.
Going to the school, parents, teachers, police didn't help me a bit. It may help you.. I mean.. there's always restraining orders.
First off, I'd have to say to take a relaxed and mellow view of everything. Getting upset will just egg them on. Ignoring them will not work. Fighting is NOT reccomended. Your best bet is to find a niche. Get involved in something in the school like the paper, one of the clubs.. etc... That will increase your support around you. Get yourself an interesting hobby that would be interesting to others and share it. The only other thing I can reccomend is to act like you take NOTHING they say seriously and joke right back to them.
If things do get physical (and don't you start anything physical), go immediately to the principal/police, whatever.
Back when I was in school, it was the 80's. I ended up as the stepping stone for all the jocks and rich kids in their bids for "popularity". Not only that, because one of my friends was bald, I got in trouble with a gang in my school who thought that we were nazi skinheads (which we SO weren't). I've been stuffed in lockers, toilets, shot at with bb guns, had fireworks shot at me, had food trays dumped on me, AND I was tossed naked out of the gym locker room out into the cafiteria durring lunch time. AND of course since the kids on the sports teams were doing it, they would get little slaps on the hand and I would get suspended (god fobid they lose their star quarterback durring football season). I changed my entire outlook senior year. Mellowed out, got into some interesting niches (writing poetry, short stories, a novel, school yearbook, and took guitar class.)
Another thing that made a difference was that I started talking to EVERYBODY instead of being a wierd loner. So I went from that wierd guy who never talks and sits in the corner all alone to that wierd guy who's actually pretty interesting and funny.
I had ZERO problems from the jocks that year and as a matter of fact, I ended up befriending a few. One of those jocks eventually became the mayor of my home town.
Well, I hope I helped out a little.

And now I return you to our previous topic.

[Frederf]

I believe you do far greater harm to the development of a child when you just tell them they are doing wrong, without an explanation.

While I generally approve of reason behind things, my understanding of early childhood development is that dogma, spankings, etc (more animalistic or base) methods of teaching are more appropriate for certain early age children since they do not have the mental development to allow reason to stick.

Still it couldn't hurt to add onto the edge of the pledge "because these words deal with very personal things about who that person is and can hurt a lot." (trying to word it down to 1st grade level here).

[August]

August has it ever dawned on you that honor in fighting in school has died LONG ago?

You fight back these days and you got EVERY one of his buddies waiting to kick your ass the first chance they get. That "Fight back" bull**** is just that these days.

:roll: The day Americans refuse to stand up for themselves is the day this country begins it's decline.

[1480]

I believe you do far greater harm to the development of a child when you just tell them they are doing wrong, without an explanation.

While I generally approve of reason behind things, my understanding of early childhood development is that dogma, spankings, etc (more animalistic or base) methods of teaching are more appropriate for certain early age children since they do not have the mental development to allow reason to stick.

Still it couldn't hurt to add onto the edge of the pledge "because these words deal with very personal things about who that person is and can hurt a lot." (trying to word it down to 1st grade level here).

Yes and no. In my own experience (and maybe I lucked out) at around three, my child's favorite word became "why." So I've been explaining ever since, all of my decisions. I think corporal punishment is not as effective until a child becomes older. It should be used as the last line in the parenting continum. Explanation, threats, physical correction.

[CCIP]

August has it ever dawned on you that honor in fighting in school has died LONG ago?

You fight back these days and you got EVERY one of his buddies waiting to kick your ass the first chance they get. That "Fight back" bull**** is just that these days.
:roll: The day Americans refuse to stand up for themselves is the day this country begins it's decline.
Obviously someone who thinks that way has never actually been beaten by a gang or threatened with a weapon. There's no such thing as fighting honour unless you're in a boxing or wrestling ring, with rules. There's no honour in being badly injured and possibly killed for no reason whatsoever. If you do that on purpose, you're not a hero, you're an idiot. I say that as someone who's been there repeatedly.

[1480]

August has it ever dawned on you that honor in fighting in school has died LONG ago?

You fight back these days and you got EVERY one of his buddies waiting to kick your ass the first chance they get. That "Fight back" bull**** is just that these days.

:roll: The day Americans refuse to stand up for themselves is the day this country begins it's decline.

Huzzah! The young idealists that never read Orwell, nor had to critically think for themselves will find the utopia that their teachers promised them during their academic pursuits. I find it odd that a segment of society that preaches tolerance are the first to sling venom at people who disagree with them :hmm:

[1480]

August has it ever dawned on you that honor in fighting in school has died LONG ago?

You fight back these days and you got EVERY one of his buddies waiting to kick your ass the first chance they get. That "Fight back" bull**** is just that these days.
:roll: The day Americans refuse to stand up for themselves is the day this country begins it's decline.
Obviously someone who thinks that way has never actually been beaten by a gang or threatened with a weapon. There's no such thing as fighting honour unless you're in a boxing or wrestling ring, with rules. There's no honour in being badly injured and possibly killed for no reason whatsoever. If you do that on purpose, you're not a hero, you're an idiot. I say that as someone who's been there repeatedly.

Knock out the biggest one first. Bullies tend to run away when those cowards see it's their own blood being spilled. The probiscus is rather easy to break.:up:

Lets see, the independence of the United States was fought under similar circumstances. They did not roll over and play dead. They ambushed the red coats when the odds and terrain were in their favor. This could easily be replicated, and I'm not advocating any violence but someone must make a stand and say "its over!" Good luck to one and all.

[CCIP]

Knock out the biggest one first. Bullies tend to run away when those cowards see it's their own blood being spilled. The probiscus is rather easy to break.:up:
Well yes, that's what I always did. Precisely that. Ambush and inflict maximum pain on the most obvious example to shock the rest, then run like hell. Rarely got picked on by the same people out of that. I've practiced decoy moves, always calculated where I'd hit, used objects at hand (like chairs, rocks etc.) to threaten when necessary. To this day, thanks to that plus the fact that I grew up in one of the most dangerous city environments in the world, my mind constantly calculates plans of action and escape routes should I be jumped the next minute. That's not honourable, that's a survival necessity where I grew up.

But whenever that could be avoided, I got authorities involved. Noone should take any pleasure in inflicting pain on others, that's the point. I've known people who got badly hurt in fights, stabbed or ended up with spinal injuries. It's not a game, and noone should ever take it as a matter of honour.

[Morts]

There's no such thing as fighting honour unless you're in a boxing or wrestling ring, with rules. There's no honour in being badly injured and possibly killed for no reason whatsoever
exactly, thats why my dad told me that if i cant avoid a fight...fight dirty and make a run for it when the other guy is down