On the periscope notepad

[joegrundman]

I have come to the conclusion that the notepad system in SH4UBM is not only useless, it's an impediment to accurate manual targeting.

Obviously rather than overhaul the system completely the designers decided to resurrect the SH3 notepad system. But it is not exactly the same and the differences between them have a big effect on the versatility of the system.

OK, in SH3 there are default measurements, AOB 0, Range 0, speed 0.

In SH4, the default measurements are AOB 0, Range 3000 (IIRC, but anyway, not 0), speed 0

With both systems you can input all your data using the tools provided and send to TDC, or you can go to the TDC page and manually input

But with SH3 you could manually input speed into the TDC, and if you only send updated AOB and range data from the notepad, then this will not affect your speed input. This is very important, since few manual targeters regularly use the speed measuring equipment available from the notepad.

However with SH4 this is not possible because to send data from the notepad will reset the TDC speed to whatever the default is.. Therefore you cannot set speed using the TDC, and update the range and AOB solution using the notepad and stadimeter, without also going back to the TDC and changing the speed setting, wasting valuable seconds before firing.

Please correct me if i'm wrong here.

[MH]

I hate that system too and it a reason i dont play u-boats in sh4.Its a mess.
Would be much better to have (somehow)the system of data input copied from fleet boats.Without the automatic PK ,just the dials on right side.

[gutted]

i too hate how if you hit the X button to clear out the notepad.. it also clears out everything in your TDC dials.

i like to set my speed manually like you. sometimes i use the notepad to input AOB.. sometimes i use the TDC dials.

in any case..after i had the speed and AOB set i would hit the X button to clear out the notepad.. and then start using the notepad to keep JUST my range TDC dial updated. but that feature is gone now.

booooo!

[Mattman[CDN]]

I agree with all three above , is there a Mod that can make the settings available again in the attack scope?

[Frederf]

Just a couple days ago I tried 1.5 UB-ATO and found the way they do TDC entry to be completely unusable for the reasons listed above.

I really wish that instead of they hokey "helping hand" automated speed gathering method they force on you, they would instead give a way just to call out timestamped bearing/ranges that are put onto the attack/nav map and let you figure out course and speed from that.

It would be a lot more realistic and flexible.

[Hitman]

I have never used it, even in SH3. Found long ago that collecting data with external tools and printed tables (For distance) is way faster and more accurate.

IMO we should use the slot in the menu.ini to eliminate the notepad and replace it with something more useful, like a wiz-wheel or such. The big pity is that now that we have a proper double-image stadimeter it becomes unusable :damn: How I wish they had left the same system as with the US interface, where you can input directly your heigth estimate and hence take as reference point mast, funnel, bridge or whatever you prefer. Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA :shifty:

[LukeFF]

Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA :shifty:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/LukeFF/DoWeFire.jpg

:D

[Onkel Neal]

Browsing the recognition manual for a match before you can make a measurement is PITA :shifty:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/LukeFF/DoWeFire.jpg

:D



:rotfl:

.

[joegrundman]

OMG that's brilliant! I love it! :rotfl:

But i think this discussion could be a starting point for a periscope interface overhaul discussion

I for one would certainly be willing to start modding the interface, but what would be a better setup?

[MH]

For a start it would be great just to have TDC fleet boat dials with changed "uboatish" look nothing more.
The ultimate would be OLC style interface.
As for now the only way to play that makes sense is with automatic targeting.:down:

[Frederf]

There's a middle ground where the targetting officer fills in the blanks yes? That's at least in between manual and auto targeting.

[Fish40]

For a start it would be great just to have TDC fleet boat dials with changed "uboatish" look nothing more.
The ultimate would be OLC style interface.
As for now the only way to play that makes sense is with automatic targeting.:down:


Something like it already exists: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=135184&highlight=german+bearing I'm not sure about its' present status, and IIRC it wouldn't work with higher resolutions. I requested several times that this be integrated in the RFB mod, and I was assured it was on the "to do" list. I think right now there are more pressing problems for the RFB team to iron out first.

I also PM'ed OLC himself, about the prospect of creating a GUI mod for SH4, but unfortunately OLC has no plans to do so:cry: This mod is priceless to me in SH3, and I would love it to become a mainstay here, for us manual targeters.

[XLjedi]

For the Uboats in SH4 I do the same thing I did in SH3... totally ignore the notepad.

I set the TDC inputs using the TDC dials on the attack map. A feature that is noticeably absent from the attack map for the US fleetboats! :damn:

The real question is...

Why are there no adjustable position keeper dials available on the attack map for the US boats??? :nope:

[green_abobo]

all i use the notepad for is preliminary checks for speed,bearing,and range. when they get within 3000 meters,i use the battlemap controls to fine-tune last minute changes in the target's bearing. i find it easier to work with,and it makes the sub semi-auto with the salvo controls. :rock:

ug, i take it back. not as easy as previouly realized. lol.

[karamazovnew]

all i use the notepad for is preliminary checks for speed,bearing,and range. when they get within 300 meters,i use the battlemap controls to fine-tune last minute changes in the target's bearing. i find it easier to work with,and it makes the sub semi-auto with the salvo controls. :rock:

300 m? You'd be killed by your own torpedo blast (if it did arm itself in 300 m). I'm not sure if i'm reading this right, but you have just smashed all of my understanding of SH Uboat manual targetting.

What Joegrundman said was that because SH4 no longer ignores 0 values when sending data to the TDC (like SH3 did), the notepad becomes such a big problem that it's better not to send the data at all, but modify them manually in the Attack Map view.

So what you should do is:
1 - use the stadimeter to get precise bearing/range to plot the target's speed and it's course line (or press the stopwatch button to get them automatically). Then choose a proper heading to intercept the target (based on it's speed and heading). After that don't change your course anymore.
2 - use a protractor to find the what the target's AOB will be when it will cross your 000 (sometime in the future)
3 - reset your scope to 000
4 - go back to attack map, turn TDC autoupdate off and input the speed (found at step1) and AOB (found at step 2), then turn autoupdate back on
5- as you approach the fire point( if the target doens' spot you, since it will not change her course or speed), just get a quick range (but don't send it through the notepad to the TDC!!! cause it will reset the speed and AOB again)
6- go to attack map, turn autoupdate off and quickly input that range, then turn autoupdate on again.
7- place your scope on the target's juicy parts and fire torpedoes one by one per juicy part, not in salvos :o.

If the notepad did work correctly, you would be able to remove the 6'th step. And of course, not switch so much to the attack map screen.

[green_abobo]

i would agree that using slavos can deplete your reserves faster than normal,especially on one contact. on a convoy or TF though, this might be handy. i'm glad, as i try to assimilate mysef with the uboats,the first mission has plenty of refit ports on the way to the objective,which is allowing me the opportunity to experiment with manual targeting in a german submarine,thank god.

i would also agree, in regards to you questioning my distance, and ironically has made me realize,as far as figuring attack distance, my error. i am using authentic measurment,trying to use it anyway,i'm used to using imperial system. i was attempting (which is the mistake) to convert meters to feet,instead of meters to yards, so i was going on 1000 feet= roughly 300 meters,when it should be,1000 yards= 914 meters. does that sound more like it? so disregard what i said about the distance. you're correct. i slept alot in school. lol. thanks again.

[green_abobo]

The real question is...

Why are there no adjustable position keeper dials available on the attack map for the US boats??? :nope: [/quote]

you're right. the only thing i notice that may have some "bearing", no pun intended, is the white x with the line present on the u.s. attack map that i think represents the PK,basing this on the fact that it's absent on the german side. than again, i could be wrong. all this pertains to stock version of sh4 1.5. of course.

[karamazovnew]

By saying that you shouldn't use salvos I didn't mean that you should only fire one torpedo per ship :haha:. I fire 3 or even 4, depending on the target. But I fire them individually so that i can aim them precisely where I want. A salvo spread angle can't always achieve that. Plus, you might not have 4 identical torpedo types in your tubes, so firing a salvo might lead to ugly results.:arrgh!:

1000 meters sounds much better. I usually fire at around 600 meters on single merchants but at around 4000 on convoys.

Why no adjustable PK dials? Because Ubisoft thought they were making a fancy Doom-clone.

[green_abobo]

especially with the uboats,they seem to be packed defaulty with waay more different types that the fleet boats.

in regards to your 4000 meters on convoys,are you using regular manual targeting ,or constant bearing, or dick o'kane's method? (those are different right?) just curious...

happy hunting! :)

[Rockin Robbins]

For the Uboats in SH4 I do the same thing I did in SH3... totally ignore the notepad.

I set the TDC inputs using the TDC dials on the attack map. A feature that is noticeably absent from the attack map for the US fleetboats! :damn:

The real question is...

Why are there no adjustable position keeper dials available on the attack map for the US boats??? :nope:

Ditto. I never use the notepad for either sim. What many of you guys are trying to do is make a U-Boat into a fleet boat. STOP THAT!:D

Aaronblood, you are trying to make a fleet boat into a U-Boat. The TDC inputs for the fleet boat work like the real ones, for better or worse. Actually they are neither, just different. Oh, there are no PK dials in a U-Boat. The position keeper is strictly a US fleet boat item.

So we have people with TDC adjustments on the periscope screen who wish they were on the attack map and others with TDC adjustments on the attack map who wish they were on the periscope screen.:hmmm: Why should it make much of a difference?

I also favor the individually aimed torpedo shots and never use spread angles in fleet boats or salvos in U-Boats. I like to know where I'm going to hit. That is why I favor using constant bearing (US terminology) techniques whenever I can. Range doesn't matter and each shot is aimed for a specific point on the target.

[joegrundman]

Ditto. I never use the notepad for either sim. What many of you guys are trying to do is make a U-Boat into a fleet boat. STOP THAT!:D


hmm:hmmm:

is it possible you haven't fully understood this thread?

[XLjedi]

Aaronblood, you are trying to make a fleet boat into a U-Boat. The TDC inputs for the fleet boat work like the real ones, for better or worse. Actually they are neither, just different. Oh, there are no PK dials in a U-Boat. The position keeper is strictly a US fleet boat item.


I didn't realize efficient game input design was something exclusive to u-boats.

Then again, I didn't think I'd be responding to that post 8 months later either...

Nice zombie thread.

[karamazovnew]

This thread is still usefull, I keep sending people to it. Almost all of the players who go directly from us boats to uboats, without having played SH3, end up with problems. They love the uboat scope's ability to update the solution bearing and aob and ask why they can't do that on us boats too. Both firing solutions work once you get used to them.
Green_abobo to answer your question, on uboats I need to plan my shot in advance and maneuver the ship a lot so I always end up using the Fast 90 technique, with 000 gyro angle so I don't need range. I've even fired at 9 km away. On Us subs I don't use any method, just the PK. Being careful when I press buttons and struggle to line up the aob with the course is a small price to pay if I end up with a good solution and can fire blind.

[green_abobo]

when you are firing blind,are you talking about: uboats, or fleet boats, or both?

i'm guessing you mean fleet boats when they are submerged,and you arent using the periscope maybe?

i am however,still tryin to figure this out.........

w/ uboats, wherever the gyroangle number (underneath the notepad) is where the shot will go?

should i not even touch the notepad? i too am trying for 90 degree shots,and i still miss most of the time,even though i'm within 1000 meters to target's location. :damn: thank goodness i'm decent with the deckgun.

here's what i've been doing so you can pin-point my error for me...

basically, all i'm using the notepad for is to get a range,but NOT clicking the check-mark.

could i just measure the distance via the nav map,and just manually enter the data on the attack map range dial? do i have to "lead" the target if it is an exceptional distance away?

i'm getting target's speed by using the map tools, and timing (w/stopwatch) how long they travel in 3:15 seconds,then measuring the distance,and dividing it by 10 get speed in knots.

then i'm manually entering the speed,range,and bearing/a.o.b. data into the attack map manual controls. adjusting torpedo settings according to the target. is that how it's done? am i close?

torpedo speed...if they are electric,and therefore slow, do i need to "lead" the target to compensate for it?

i know you tried to put it into steps for me. i'm hoping you can help me out a bit more.

are you saying if the gyroangle is 0 you dont have to worry about the stadiometer or the target's range?

what about the recognition manual? is this useless too?

what torps do you prefer to use? i think i like the t 1's the best. set them for fast or medium.

out of curiosity...what exactly is this GWX4 in your sig? its a new one for me....im guessing it's bad?

i think that covers everything i wanted to ask... (at least all i can think of for now)

thanks again. 'preciate it :salute:

[karamazovnew]

Is GWX4 bad? :har: That was funny. THe only bad thing about it is that it's not ready yet.
Let's see:
- firing blind means using the PK on the us boats. If your solution is perfect, you can keep track of your target without using your scope. One quick check to see if the bearing is ok, then bring down periscope again. Wait for the range and angle to be perfect than fire "blind". Next best thing to having guided missiles.
- u can see the gyroangle as an arrow on the us TDC, and as a number on the german notepad. What it says is "after about xxx yards of going straight (not sure how many, about 100?), I'll go to this relative bearing". The bigger the angle and the smaller the distance, the larger difference will be between what you think is right and what it thinks is right. For example, firing on a target at your 310, at 500 meters, will need a gyroangle of about 270 or something like that.
- the fast 90 attack is better for uboats. The speed is the hardest thing to get, but if your plotting is ok, then you get both the speed and the AOB when the target will cross your path. You can then adjust your course so that THAT Aob will be a perfect 90. As I said somewhere, with smart use of your TDC you can fire straight torpedoes with little calculation. To cancel out the range, the gyroangle must be 000. Just move your periscope to see when the gyroangle is 000. Wait for the target to cross the line and fire. You can't really miss.
- Torpedoes? I've said it before, only electric torpedoes, because they're invisible. Also, don't know why, but their impact detonator is the best in game. I've had one dud in my last entire carrer.

[karamazovnew]

Here it is, it's a small text guide I made for a variant of OLC's interface (it's called ACM) for SH3. It does work in SH4 except for 2 problems:
- The length of the ships is not stated in the recognition manual. I did a small mod for the ships in TMO (without RSRD) that replaces the Max Speed text with the Ship Length. I need to make versions for all major SH4 mods :damn:. And even then noone will download it since they all use Map Contact Updates.
- ACM shows you the TDC on your attack periscope screen.

However, the principles are exactly the same. I guess It's about time I made it into a picture guide. But for now....
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=151431

[Rockin Robbins]

You should realize that the reason the Germans could use the tools in the OLC Gui related to the openness of western societies, where ship dimension information was pretty easy to obtain.

In the Pacific, Japanese warships' lengths and other dimensions were mostly known but the merchant fleet had hundreds of ships that were not even in the recognition manual! The rest had some very unreliable information. Using something like the OLC GUI in a fleet boat would necessitate another mod like SCAF, which would have to put precise dimensions for every ship on the ocean into the ONI manual of the fleet boat. Since that would be grossly unhistorical, the presence of the tool that would require that information would also be inappropriate.

Simply put, in closed societies such as Japan and Germany, information is much more difficult to obtain than it is in open societies such as the UK and US.

An interesting sidenote: the American subs could do Fast-90 in real life as there was a direct hookup of periscope beaing to TDC which is not incorporated into our game. Even better than that, O'Kane was using the position keeper in conjunction with the periscope bearing link to do constant bearing attacks at random angles, as we do with the vector analysis method.

Joe, I was responding to Aaronblood's call for a position keeper in the U-Boat and MH's call for fleet boat dials with a "U-Boat look" in the German boat. I think I understood those posts.

[joegrundman]

You should realize that the reason the Germans could use the tools in the OLC Gui related to the openness of western societies, where ship dimension information was pretty easy to obtain.

In the Pacific, Japanese warships' lengths and other dimensions were mostly known but the merchant fleet had hundreds of ships that were not even in the recognition manual! The rest had some very unreliable information. Using something like the OLC GUI in a fleet boat would necessitate another mod like SCAF, which would have to put precise dimensions for every ship on the ocean into the ONI manual of the fleet boat. Since that would be grossly unhistorical, the presence of the tool that would require that information would also be inappropriate.

Simply put, in closed societies such as Japan and Germany, information is much more difficult to obtain than it is in open societies such as the UK and US.

An interesting sidenote: the American subs could do Fast-90 in real life as there was a direct hookup of periscope beaing to TDC which is not incorporated into our game. Even better than that, O'Kane was using the position keeper in conjunction with the periscope bearing link to do constant bearing attacks at random angles, as we do with the vector analysis method.

Joe, I was responding to Aaronblood's call for a position keeper in the U-Boat and MH's call for fleet boat dials with a "U-Boat look" in the German boat. I think I understood those posts.

Firstly, this thing you said about open/closed societies and the relative abundance of data - do you have any evidence for this? Because, in short, it doesn't match anything i have learned on the subject.

For a start, how do you even define open/closed societies in this case? Japan opened up in the 19th century at the behest of an american gunboat, and had been crawling with foreigners ever since - and what's more, a goodly number of Japanese ships were not even built in Japan.

From what I've read, the Germans, like the Americans, had patchy and unreliable intel and a lot of experience. They may not have known the exact dimensions of specific ships, but they understood the design of shipbuilding and what to look for in ships of certain sizes. They also knew average dimensions and standard mast height ratios. Just as did the Americans.

Contrary to your assertion that the tools are dependent on highly accurate data, you can still use these tools with imperfect information. However you are not alone in this misapprehension. Personally, i use the tools a lot, and never open the recognition manual.

And also it should be borne in mind, just like the Americans, the Germans often overestimated what they had just sunk.

The OLC-GUI tools, as you call them, were there in U-boats at least for some of the time, and they were used as and when needed, which was not necessarily all that often. The AOB finder was also there on US scopes, but US skippers, like the Germans, preferred to judge AOB by eye. I do too. It's quicker and more reliable.

The U-jagd chrono was not used by the Americans, and it appears the US never really understood the simple elegance of the fixed wire method even after capturing the U505. But this happens in life, sometimes simple solutions don't always occur to everyone.

The Attack Disk is broadly similar to the Submarine Attack Course Finder, which was itself designed by the Royal Navy i believe.

It is true that the representation of the TDC lacks several important capabilities, but it is also true that the representation of the German TDC also lacks important capablities, most notably the ability to account for changes in the U-boat's own heading.

Lastly, Aaron Blood was not in fact calling for a PK in U-boats. MH was maybe doing what you say, but personally i think he was calling for directly inputtable TDC controls on the scope screen, rather than a complete US PK. There are mods that enable this, very well in SH3, so far less well in SH4UBM

[Rockin Robbins]

The freedom of information in an open society as opposed to restriction of information of a closed society is part and parcel of what earns the societies their designations. The axis societies were much tighter controlled than western ones. We had American companies doing business with Germany until the day war was declared by Hitler!

With Japan, the problem was not only one of a more guarded society but an extreme culture difference which made it next to impossible to imbed spies or to have Americans in trusted positions during peacetime. They had hundreds of merchant ships of which we had no knowledge at all. Yes, they did purchase some of them from European countries and some of those dimensions would have been known. But masthead heights, funnel arrangements and heights, and cabin configurations were easily and frequently altered.

I'll bet the Americans sneered when they encountered the multisyllabular unpronounceable gizmo I have called the OLC GUI device in U-505. Of course they failed to recognize the sheer ingenuity of the process! The Americans had radar, which made all such primitive nonsense obsolete. Except that both the Germans and Americans had salt water, which has unfortunate effects on electrical technology.

But the ones evaluating U-505 were desk jockeys, dealing with theory of devices used in best-case conditions. Technology is an addictive drug which sometimes blinds us to its limitations. If anyone not a desk jockey was evaluating the German targeting device, I'll bet they sneered only until the next time their radar failed at a critical moment!:haha:

You also have to keep in mind that the American military system punished risk-taking and enforced adherence to protocol, while the German military emphasized front line initiative, giving commanders in the field much more latitude to make decisions. On land, the result was that one German unit was equivalent in combat effectiveness to approximately 3 American similar units. They were simply much more flexible and unpredictable than we were.

[XLjedi]

Joe, I was responding to Aaronblood's call for a position keeper in the U-Boat and MH's call for fleet boat dials with a "U-Boat look" in the German boat. I think I understood those posts.


I didn't call for a PK in a U-Boat... :nope: Where do you get this stuff? :06:

I just think it's silly that we can't control all of the PK inputs from the attack map. SH4 is stuck with a poor implementation of the GUI for the US fleetboat.

The shame of it is that all they gotta do is stick the PK input dongle-thingy on the attack map.
(actually the PK is already there and viewable, just can't adjust the inputs you need to)

Three simple input textboxes would be a godsend in this game... regardless of which navy you prefer.

[karamazovnew]

I didn't call for a PK in a U-Boat... :nope: Where do you get this stuff? :06:

I just think it's silly that we can't control all of the PK inputs from the attack map. SH4 is stuck with a poor implementation of the GUI for the US fleetboat.

The shame of it is that all they gotta do is stick the PK input dongle-thingy on the attack map.
(actually the PK is already there and viewable, just can't adjust the inputs you need to)

Three simple input textboxes would be a godsend in this game... regardless of which navy you prefer.

True. By the way, here's a nice link with the Japanese TDC... :doh:. No wonder they simplified the TDC so much in the game.
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200F-0086-0124%20Report%20O-32.pdf

[XLjedi]

True. By the way, here's a nice link with the Japanese TDC... :doh:. No wonder they simplified the TDC so much in the game.
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200F-0086-0124%20Report%20O-32.pdf

Kind of a neat document, haven't seen that before.

Just looks like the basic schematics for how it works... Probably no more or less difficult to operate than what we're using in the game.

[Rockin Robbins]

Cool find! And keep in mind that it was much simpler than the TDC on a US boat and probably slightly simpler than a German TDC. Both could use more accurate modeling in future games.

Aaronblood, I understand now that you just used terminology carelessly rather than making an explicit call for a position keeper, which is a clock driven device automatically updating angle on the bow and range parameters over time assuming that target course and speed remain constant. That was a piece of equipment not present in German or Japanese boats. You meant TDC inputs or equivalent German nomenclature.

I don't have any problem with which screen inputs are in as long as they remain authentic. I don't find notepads to be authentic TDC input devices. I think we all agree that PC rendering of the TDCs of all countries is an area where future subsims have plenty of room for improvement.

I'd love to see the device the OLC GUI replicates included in the U-Boat. I'd love to see stadimeter plots and bearing difference plots included in fleet boat targeting too.

[XLjedi]

For the Uboats in SH4 I do the same thing I did in SH3... totally ignore the notepad.

I set the TDC inputs using the TDC dials on the attack map. A feature that is noticeably absent from the attack map for the US fleetboats! :damn:

The real question is...

Why are there no adjustable position keeper dials available on the attack map for the US boats??? :nope:


How could I have been any more or less careless in wording in this post from 8 months ago?

[joegrundman]

Boy, RR, it's tough discussing something with someone who can't/won't read what has been written.

The freedom of information in an open society as opposed to restriction of information of a closed society is part and parcel of what earns the societies their designations. The axis societies were much tighter controlled than western ones. We had American companies doing business with Germany until the day war was declared by Hitler!

With Japan, the problem was not only one of a more guarded society but an extreme culture difference which made it next to impossible to imbed spies or to have Americans in trusted positions during peacetime. They had hundreds of merchant ships of which we had no knowledge at all. Yes, they did purchase some of them from European countries and some of those dimensions would have been known. But masthead heights, funnel arrangements and heights, and cabin configurations were easily and frequently altered.

well, this still seems to be your opinion drawn on imagination, rather than anything supported by evidence. Neither Germany nor Japan were particularly closed in the years preceding the war, in the way that, say, the USSR was during the cold war. There were wartime exigencies, of course, which applied equally to the allies. Much of Japan's shipping had been built over a span of decades, long before wartime tensions came into play, and the point that US companies were involved in important deals with Nazi Germany until quite late demonstrates rather the opposite of what you hoped to say.

Finally, the allies could also indulge in disguising ships characteristics, and i repeat my point that, like the Americans, the Germans also rarely had exact information regarding merchant ships.



I'll bet the Americans sneered when they encountered the multisyllabular unpronounceable gizmo I have called the OLC GUI device in U-505. Of course they failed to recognize the sheer ingenuity of the process! The Americans had radar, which made all such primitive nonsense obsolete. Except that both the Germans and Americans had salt water, which has unfortunate effects on electrical technology.

i repeat myself again. The US periscopes also had an AOB finder device that was exactly analogous to the German ones. I also repeat that both Germans and Americans preferred to judge AOB by eye. So it is unlikely that they would have been particularly impressed by the ingenuity. Most likely the Americans adopted it as a design feature after one of the u-boats visited the US in the years after ww1.

Regarding radar: Obviously the allies had better radar and were always one step ahead, but it was also a generational change. The U-boat war was ending as the US submarine war was starting. Noone had effective radar until 43 - both did at the end. You use the technology you have at the time.



But the ones evaluating U-505 were desk jockeys, dealing with theory of devices used in best-case conditions. Technology is an addictive drug which sometimes blinds us to its limitations. If anyone not a desk jockey was evaluating the German targeting device, I'll bet they sneered only until the next time their radar failed at a critical moment!:haha:

Is any of this true, actually? Or relevant? Please demonstrate how



You also have to keep in mind that the American military system punished risk-taking and enforced adherence to protocol, while the German military emphasized front line initiative, giving commanders in the field much more latitude to make decisions. On land, the result was that one German unit was equivalent in combat effectiveness to approximately 3 American similar units. They were simply much more flexible and unpredictable than we were.on land maybe, but US submarine units had a high degree of autonomy and personal initiative, and i don't see the relevance anyway.