Another anti pirate thread. Bethesda speaks.

[kiwi_2005]

"Bethesda: "50% of tech support inquiries are from those with pirated copies."

http://tinyurl.com/6yqebj


Bethesda Softworks, in the form of product manager Pete Hines, has joined in the mass of developers trying to put the boot into the PC games industry.

Speaking to MTV Multiplayer, Hines said his studio spent half of its customer support time dealing with people who had pirated copies of the game.

"The amount of money we spend supporting people who didn’t pay us for the game in the first place … it’s f**king ludicrous. We talk to other developers, guys who are [like] ‘Yeah, it’s a third, it’s 50 per cent of our [customer] support,'" Hines told MTV Multiplayer.

Fallout 3 will, like Oblivion, only be shipping with mild forms of copy protection, the kind that people don't go onto the internet and complain about (there won't be any Spore-esque flame wars with Fallout 3).

Interestingly, Fallout 3 has already leaked onto some torrent sites, much to Bethesda's dismay. However, the leaked version is actually for the Xbox 360, proving that piracy isn't just a problem the home computer market.

BioWare has recently come out with a sensible idea for combating PC piracy, namely the ability to obtain downloadable content and multiplayer modes that pirates simply can't get around.

Look at games like Team Fortress 2 and, we assume, Left 4 Dead. You'll find very few pirates there, because it is virtually, if not totally impossible to get into a multiplayer game on Steam using a dodgy copy.

Lessons like this need to be learned.

[Otto_Weddigen]

Yo Kiwi_2005 you from NZ?

[kiwi_2005]

Yep. So you are too i presume?

[Onkel Neal]

"The amount of money we spend supporting people who didn’t pay us for the game in the first place … it’s f**king ludicrous. We talk to other developers, guys who are [like] ‘Yeah, it’s a third, it’s 50 per cent of our [customer] support,'" Hines told MTV Multiplayer.



Pete's a good guy, I got to meet him at E3 a couple years back. This makes me sick. :shifty:

[Rilder]

Look at games like Team Fortress 2 and, we assume, Left 4 Dead. You'll find very few pirates there, because it is virtually, if not totally impossible to get into a multiplayer game on Steam using a dodgy copy.



Unfortunatly just running away to multiplayer won't protect you from piracy, with things like hamachi, private servers and the like people can find away around and play multiplayer no matter what.

Steam can't protect from pirates either, steam only games can be pirated too.

1: Theres only 3 effective ways to prevent pirates:
Don't hype the game at all and rely on word of mouth, don't even put it on steam or the like.

2: Make the game free or donationware (can't pirate a free game, and look at dwarf fortress, Toady makes good money off his free game)

3: Don't release the game. Which is kinda stupid. :lol:


Also don't forget, alot of the mainstream dev teams are putting out increasinly crappy games, like Spore and its really ruining the confidence of gamers to spend money on a game that will probably end up an over hyped piece of ****. Fallout 3 is looking like Oblivion, a game that was a terrible sequal to the Elder Scrolls series, fallout fans are probably expecting an even worse sequal to Fallout.

[Robsoie]

Indeed, multiplayer is not a protection against piracy, from what i read most pirated multiplayer steam games, unlike what the Bethesda guy tell, are in fact played on private servers with pirated steam applications.

Maybe a possible solution would be in the game support.
By example Stardock that is selling their game without copy portection or any intrusive software annoying their cutstomer require some kind of authentification when a customer want to get patch and additional content for his game.

I think it is a good idea , the software itself after you buy it feature not a single annoyance for the customer, but extra content and game support needs a legit copy authentification (don't remember if it was email/code/serial related)

Of course simple serial/email is not really a problem for pirates, but there must certainly be a way to get something done that would not be as easy for piracy to circumvent during the game support process.

Probably this game support process is where the publishers should put their anti piracy protection instead of forcing heavy DRM and feeding starforce/securom-like horrors to their customers at the retail store.

[CCIP]

One of the really dumb, ironic problem with invasive copy protection is that much of it (especially Starforce of course) came out of the Russian market where many legit publishers actually competed (successfully) with pirates by driving down the prices of legit games to a level where they only cost a bit more than the pirated copy, with the pricetag certainly justifying owning a license to a game. Note - I said owning a license. When games cost what they do in a place like Russia (i.e. several times cheaper than in Europe or the US), it's certainly understandable and excusable to be paying a modest amount for a restricted form of "ownership" of a game copy and putting up with some inconveniences for their system.

The really stupid thing is that Europe and the US pretty well adopted Russia's fiercely competitive copy protection system without adopting Russia's likewise competitive pricing. Most of the time the pricetags on new games here are around $60, which is completely ludicrous and has no justification given the way copy protection and user control over the game copy are treated. There are a few niche exceptions to that I am happy to put up with, where an unusual game by a small publisher and for a special audience needs to be priced higher to make a profit and keep up development. But most of the time, the pricing is unjustified.

I would not be so displeased with a certain level of copy protection if the average new game cost $15-20. At $50-70 however, publishers are making a huge mistake - blaming piracy for what is actually a problem caused by a combination of invasive copy protection, overblown and unreasonable pricing, and of course poor quality of many of the products marketed for this price. Publishers are getting into all sorts of posturing about losing trust in gamers, but in fact it's they who are losing the gamers' trust. And for good reasons.

I buy very few new games nowadays. Most of the games I do buy new come from smaller publishers. Otherwise I just don't feel it's worth the price and cost (two different things in this case) at release.

[Wolfehunter]

Stardock isn't perfect dudes. You need pulse to download the latest patches.

Stardock games comes out buggy then your screwed if you don't use this software.

I've had my beef with them. Central I didn't like when they forced it down my throat.

The only way to stop piracy is not make any games. PC, console, cellphones or pockets etc. All can be copied or cracked.

Donations idea helps.

Anyhow Beth had it comming to them. They pissed off too many fans.:nope: Maybe some of their own people too?:hmm:

And if beth and any other company choose to leave the PC market... I say good riddance because all theirs doing is screwing the honest clients with DRMs and crappy games.

Plenty of other companies and newer ones filling in the gap.:rock:

[Wolfehunter]

One of the really dumb, ironic problem with invasive copy protection is that much of it (especially Starforce of course) came out of the Russian market where many legit publishers actually competed (successfully) with pirates by driving down the prices of legit games to a level where they only cost a bit more than the pirated copy, with the pricetag certainly justifying owning a license to a game. Note - I said owning a license. When games cost what they do in a place like Russia (i.e. several times cheaper than in Europe or the US), it's certainly understandable and excusable to be paying a modest amount for a restricted form of "ownership" of a game copy and putting up with some inconveniences for their system.

The really stupid thing is that Europe and the US pretty well adopted Russia's fiercely competitive copy protection system without adopting Russia's likewise competitive pricing. Most of the time the pricetags on new games here are around $60, which is completely ludicrous and has no justification given the way copy protection and user control over the game copy are treated. There are a few niche exceptions to that I am happy to put up with, where an unusual game by a small publisher and for a special audience needs to be priced higher to make a profit and keep up development. But most of the time, the pricing is unjustified.

I would not be so displeased with a certain level of copy protection if the average new game cost $15-20. At $50-70 however, publishers are making a huge mistake - blaming piracy for what is actually a problem caused by a combination of invasive copy protection, overblown and unreasonable pricing, and of course poor quality of many of the products marketed for this price. Publishers are getting into all sorts of posturing about losing trust in gamers, but in fact it's they who are losing the gamers' trust. And for good reasons.

I buy very few new games nowadays. Most of the games I do buy new come from smaller publishers. Otherwise I just don't feel it's worth the price and cost (two different things in this case) at release.CCIP you forget Publishers are gods and can not do wrong... Everybody else is wrong and must be punished by gods hand.:yep:

[difool2]

"The amount of money we spend supporting people who didn’t pay us for the game in the first place … it’s f**king ludicrous. We talk to other developers, guys who are [like] ‘Yeah, it’s a third, it’s 50 per cent of our [customer] support,'" Hines told MTV Multiplayer.


Pete's a good guy, I got to meet him at E3 a couple years back. This makes me sick. :shifty:

What does, the way he phrased his complaint or the pirates who are making his job difficult?

[CCIP]

CCIP you forget Dev's are gods and can not do wrong... Everybody else is wrong and must be punished by gods hand.:yep:

You mean publishers. While devs (like in this case) do speak up on the issue, 99.9% of game developers anywhere really have no direct involvement in the publication, copy protection and marketing decisions for a game. The remaining 0.1% are small-time, independent developers who publish their own games, which really is not the norm in the industry. The norms are set by the likes of Ubi and EA, which so far has proved to be a fairly bad thing for everyone (including, ironically, Ubi and EA themselves).

[Wolfehunter]

CCIP you forget Dev's are gods and can not do wrong... Everybody else is wrong and must be punished by gods hand.:yep:

You mean publishers. While devs (like in this case) do speak up on the issue, 99.9% of game developers anywhere really have no direct involvement in the publication, copy protection and marketing decisions for a game. The remaining 0.1% are small-time, independent developers who publish their own games, which really is not the norm in the industry. The norms are set by the likes of Ubi and EA, which so far has proved to be a fairly bad thing for everyone (including, ironically, Ubi and EA themselves).Ya your right publisher... I was about to correct myself but you where faster.:D

[SUBMAN1]

I will buy their deluxe copy for the simple fact they aren't including any real copy protection. Oblivion is one of the best selling PC games of all time, and it it used almost no copy protection as well.

Bethesda seems to have learned form this, but the support call thing is crazy. A simple fix for this is to require a serial number before every call.

Support this game. i will be come Tuesday.

-S

[Wolfehunter]

I will buy their deluxe copy for the simple fact they aren't including any real copy protection. Oblivion is one of the best selling PC games of all time, and it it used almost no copy protection as well.

Bethesda seems to have learned form this, but the support call thing is crazy. A simple fix for this is to require a serial number before every call.

Support this game. i will be come Tuesday.

-S:nope: Sorry Subman I will not support Bethesda ever again. Well Unless they change the publishers.. Then maybe...:hmm:

[SUBMAN1]

:nope: Sorry Subman I will not support Bethesda ever again. Well Unless they change the publishers.. Then maybe...:hmm:
Why?

And Bethesda is a publisher by the way, not the game company. So i don't follow you. Did some game company pull a fast one on you that was published by Bethesda?

-S

[Wolfehunter]

:nope: Sorry Subman I will not support Bethesda ever again. Well Unless they change the publishers.. Then maybe...:hmm:
Why?

And Bethesda is a publisher by the way, not the game company. So i don't follow you. Did some game company pull a fast one on you that was published by Bethesda?

-SI don't like what their doing to fallout dude. I didn't like what they did to Oblivion too but it was too late and I gave them a shot then. I have all there updates and expansions and it still sucks compared to what was proposed before its release.

I like morrowind even though it was a fraction of daggersfall and arena but hey thats just me.

If you like it thats cool dude.

I know Bethesda is their own publisher which explains why they need to change... themselves...

But again thats just me talking. I won't fall sucker again Subman. I saw the change with them years ago dude. ;)

[SUBMAN1]

I don't like what their doing to fallout dude. I didn't like what they did to Oblivion too but it was too late and I gave them a shot then. I have all there updates and expansions and it still sucks compared to what was proposed before its release.

I like morrowind even though it was a fraction of daggersfall and arena but hey thats just me.

If you like it thats cool dude.

I know Bethesda is their own publisher which explains why they need to change... themselves...

But again thats just me talking. I won't fall sucker again Subman. I saw the change with them years ago dude. ;)You know what you're trading it for, right? This is to be expected. As more effort goes into design of graphics and engine, you lose on size and capability. The difference between Daggerfall and Oblivion? Daggerfall had mostly computer generated landscapes and computer generated random dungeons. Come Oblivion and everything is 'hand drawn' by the designers, which severely limits the scope of the world. It is a bigger world than that of Morrowind, but you get the idea.

Also, with Obivion and hand drawn dungeons, you don't have the problem of mismatched areas where you could actually fall out of the world in Daggerfall. This was a big bug that even I fell victim too once in a while, pun intended.

Arena - probably the biggest game world ever created, and bigger than Daggerfall, but you already starting to see the scope of what happens when game designers start crafting more and more of the world.

What I would like to see if a balance between the two. I want some random generated places for world size, and I want some hand drawn areas for the story points. This is where we need to see the series go. Computer AI should be sufficient enough to do a much better job than Daggerfall had.

Anyway, in answer to your argument, you are just seeing the progression of detail at the expense of size and capability.

-S

[Rilder]

Stardock isn't perfect dudes. You need pulse to download the latest patches.


Oh Trust me I'm gaining a growing hate of Stardock, their forced use of there shoddy piece of program they call Iimpulse really annoys me since they bloated it more then vista.

[Wolfehunter]

I don't like what their doing to fallout dude. I didn't like what they did to Oblivion too but it was too late and I gave them a shot then. I have all there updates and expansions and it still sucks compared to what was proposed before its release.

I like morrowind even though it was a fraction of daggersfall and arena but hey thats just me.

If you like it thats cool dude.

I know Bethesda is their own publisher which explains why they need to change... themselves...

But again thats just me talking. I won't fall sucker again Subman. I saw the change with them years ago dude. ;)You know what you're trading it for, right? This is to be expected. As more effort goes into design of graphics and engine, you lose on size and capability. The difference between Daggerfall and Oblivion? Daggerfall had mostly computer generated landscapes and computer generated random dungeons. Come Oblivion and everything is 'hand drawn' by the designers, which severely limits the scope of the world. It is a bigger world than that of Morrowind, but you get the idea.

Also, with Obivion and hand drawn dungeons, you don't have the problem of mismatched areas where you could actually fall out of the world in Daggerfall. This was a big bug that even I fell victim too once in a while, pun intended.

Arena - probably the biggest game world ever created, and bigger than Daggerfall, but you already starting to see the scope of what happens when game designers start crafting more and more of the world.

What I would like to see if a balance between the two. I want some random generated places for world size, and I want some hand drawn areas for the story points. This is where we need to see the series go. Computer AI should be sufficient enough to do a much better job than Daggerfall had.

Anyway, in answer to your argument, you are just seeing the progression of detail at the expense of size and capability.

-SSubman I've herd this before. Back then the scripting and artwork was simpler than today. That is true. Graphics and other factors shows a big difference between 10 years. Thing you have to remember dude is that back then that was new tech, new ideas, new type of scripting. Back then it was hard as hell because it was all new and innovating just like it is today. But we look back and say hey that was easy hahahahaa. But when those guys were working hard on the games it wasn't. It was new like it is today.

So in a certain view your argument isn't sound.

But thats the way the cookie crumbles lol. :88)

Anyhow have fun with it. At lease you will get to enjoy new fallout.

@ Rilder yup I closed my account with them last month. When I bought galactic civilization II I wasn't bound to using Central for updates a few years ago. Then they forced it on me and now impulse... I had enough. I asked them how are they honouring their own rights that they have wrote up when we can't get the updates freely without that stupid addware?

I got silence from Stardock.

Its all bull$**T.

[Robsoie]

I had no idea the Stardock software was that bad, there was a time people said good thing about stardock online store.

But it was before they moved to the "Impulse" software, i never really read about it but if it is customer unfriendly i can't see how it will help them to sell more, at least they will sell nothing to me like this.

I was considering to buy GalCiv 2 in a near future when i will get enough of the 4X i regularly play, but from some Impulse reports like the ones from this thread i guess i will seek another 4X :/

Maybe Sword of the Stars will do the trick.

[Rilder]

When I reinstalled Gal-civ2 I used impulse, it took well over an hour just for downloads to begin, it was an utter pain to get Gal-civ2 updated and the expansions installed.

[Wolfehunter]

I had no idea the Stardock software was that bad, there was a time people said good thing about stardock online store.

But it was before they moved to the "Impulse" software, i never really read about it but if it is customer unfriendly i can't see how it will help them to sell more, at least they will sell nothing to me like this.

I was considering to buy GalCiv 2 in a near future when i will get enough of the 4X i regularly play, but from some Impulse reports like the ones from this thread i guess i will seek another 4X :/

Maybe Sword of the Stars will do the trick.I'm playing with egosoft newer X3 terran conflict. Its got a few bugs because its new. I've played with X3 reunion and X2 the threat all are great games especially with the mods. Thats your best bet for space 4X games.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff110/WolfeXhunter/x3screen00001.jpg
My new terran transport ship called Novastar
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff110/WolfeXhunter/x3screen00002.jpg

[Robsoie]

I always play the older X-Tension (that came with X-Gold) and continue to love it, being a fan of space trading/combat games.

At some point i considered to get X2 and X3, but as i boycott everything that include starforce/securom at retail (i know they removed it by patch later) i never bought them.

If the new X3 does not feature any of those 2 dreaded things, i will certainly glad to add it on my "tobuyoneday" list, X-Tension despite it remains old is always very interesting if you like the genre, no doubt an updated version would be awesome (your screenshots look awesome in comparison to what i am used to see).

I heard this new X3 use Tages as a copy protection, will need to read more about it before deciding if i accept it or add it to my boycott list ;)

But i will then just need to get the time to buy another space trading/combat games, as they are killing my free time at an insane speed.

Already with the marvelous Orbiter , despite it features no combat or trading i have already few time left for other games :D

[Rilder]

X3 Reunion doesn't have starforce either, they removed it in one of the patches.

I'd get X:TC but my processor is a bit low :(

[Wolfehunter]

I always play the older X-Tension (that came with X-Gold) and continue to love it, being a fan of space trading/combat games.

At some point i considered to get X2 and X3, but as i boycott everything that include starforce/securom at retail (i know they removed it by patch later) i never bought them.

If the new X3 does not feature any of those 2 dreaded things, i will certainly glad to add it on my "tobuyoneday" list, X-Tension despite it remains old is always very interesting if you like the genre, no doubt an updated version would be awesome (your screenshots look awesome in comparison to what i am used to see).

I heard this new X3 use Tages as a copy protection, will need to read more about it before deciding if i accept it or add it to my boycott list ;)

But i will then just need to get the time to buy another space trading/combat games, as they are killing my free time at an insane speed.

Already with the marvelous Orbiter , despite it features no combat or trading i have already few time left for other games :DDeepsilver has tages. I will crack it onces its out.

So far the main bug in the game is a few main scripts are screwy. Some small other details too but wait a few months. It will all be patched out. In the end they will remove the tage soon enough onces they meet their quota.

Graphics is a must. You need a ubersystem to take advantage of it. Reason why I bought my new rig. I couldn't enjoy it properly with my old rig.

But I never follow the script so I'm doing my own thing in the game hence the transport ship and selling ICE to water purifier stations for terran space... Almost feels like ICE pirates lol.:rotfl: I wonder if that is one of the eggs..?:hmm:

Cool reflections on the solar panels. That is jupiter and the sun...by the way.

[CaptainHaplo]

This idea that a games copy protection must be intrusive is a real crock. Effective copy protection need not be intrusive. I swear, I am going to make a non-intrusive CP scheme myself if the market doesn't wake up.

[Wolfehunter]

I understand you feeling CH but I believe most of these dudes will be long gone in the PC market. They're phasing to console which they believe will rule the gaming world.

But they have to kill off the PC market buy forcing us to switch over by using DRMs and beta programs etc. They even delay the PC release so that People buy the Console version first. Because most people gotta have their fix.

In the end they will loose but it will hurt the PC market. I have a PS3 and its collecting dust. Hardly ever touch it. I have games for it but its boring after you have master it for the first time. No replay value. Waist of money but I got the PS3 free so I'm not complaining too much.

PC all the way.:rock:

[Rilder]

Heh, I think this whole running away to consoles thing could really spur indie dev teams, especially as more and more people get tech savy and teach themselves programming.

Don't know if their still going but shortly after Spore came out a group on the Dwarf Fortress forums got together to try and develop a roguelike spore.