What would have happened if Germany didn't declare on US after Pearl Harbor?

[BasilY]

I personally think the the US would have declared war on Germany after Pearl for the smallest infractions. What do you think?

I post the question since Japan didn't declare war on the Soviet Union after Barbarossa, Germany is under no obligation to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

[Task Force]

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.:huh:

But what do I know.:lol:

[Paul_IronCoffin]

There are some who belive the US 'invited' the attack on Pearl for the simple reason of having an excuse to declare war and having the electorate support such a move. There were reports of Dutch (?) subs detecting the Japanese fleets way before Pearl, and the US administration at the time not responding.

[Task Force]

People believe that the US invented the Pearl Harbor attack.:nope: I guess thousands of men dead, ships sunk, airfeilds distroyed, Picific Us turned into a easy target. I guess its not to hard to believe that people would think that, people also think the Nazis didnt have concentration camps ither.:-?

[BasilY]

... So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) ....:huh:


Brits are not the only one fighting in Dec, 1941. For better or worse, the Russians had quite a bit to do with the eventual Germany downfall. America helped here as well with Lend-lease even before Dec, 1941. 9 out of 10 german casualty occured in the Eastern Front. Thus between June, 1941 and June 1944, The british isles were a mere side-show to the Titanic struggle in the East, and other theaters such as the mediteranean and North Africa, Even without a second front after Normandy, the Germans were doom. Churchill admitted it as much.

The Western Front did help create a democractic western Europe, In which a new Germany emerge. So Normandy, the bulge, Anzio, were not in vain.

[Sailor Steve]

I voted 'Other', not because I have another idea, but because I don't have any idea at all.

[donut]

Soon after Pearl:hmm:

[BasilY]

Let me toss in another, more unlikely, scenario:

What if Germany declare war on Japan after Pearl Harbor?

And why not?:
- Japan won't attack USSR any time soon, Even Richard Sorge, the soviet spy knew it from German sources in Japan. In fact, Japan was appeasing the Russians so they can deploy their resources against the US.
- No new front open, not a single German soldier will be diverted to face Japan.
- No lost opportunities, there wasn't much the Germans can take from America (yet).
- There isn't much a potential Japanese victory can give Germany, even in the unlikely event of Japan achieving a favorable settlement with the US (Even Japan did not dream off complete victory over the US)

And most importantly:
- Help Nazi sympathizers in US to make their case.
- It makes it very hard for American public opinion at the time to support a war against Germany, a co-belligerent at the very least.

Sure Japan had an pact with Germany at the time, but so did the Soviet Union a mere few months earlier.

[GoldenRivet]

if Germany did not declare war on the United States, the US would have declared war on Germany anyway. IMHO

[bookworm_020]

Even if Germany hadn't declared war on America, there would have been a big increase in the supply of material to England, and with that, the risk of more AMerican ships being sunk by German U-boats.

An intresting idea from BasilY, but I don't think the American government would have taken the bait.

[Graf Paper]

Sooner or later, we'd have gotten around to smashing those weasels. Roosevelt was determined not to leave the British hanging and he was already beginning to sway Congress into declaring war on Germany before Pearl Harbor. So this hypothetical scenario would only alter one fact...Berlin might have become the third city in history to be destroyed by an atomic bomb.

Assuming Hitler conquered Britain (although I truly don't see how it could have been done without terrible losses on both sides) casualties on the American side would have been much higher if they had to liberate Britian and create yet another front in retaking Europe. I think this would have tempted the President to use the new "super-weapon" to shorten the conflict, similar to the reasoning used for nuking Japan.

Who really knows? Questions like these can make for fun discussion but it was inevitable that the Axis would lose the war. They were too outnumbered by the Allies and could never hope to match the Americans in resources and production of war materials.

[downunder]

One flash and your ash.

[predavolk]

Roosevelt was highly sympathetic to the British, and American arms were flowing to the British for cheap, and American volunteers were going over to fight in ever increasing numbers. A declaration of war was imminent.

If the US hadn't gotten involved against Germany, little would have changed. People dramatically overestimate the importance of the US in the fight against Germany. Sure, their industry was important. But the Western front was mostly British and Canadians (3 of 5 Normandy beaches). And the Western front was, as someone rightly pointed out, a mere side-show to the epic struggle against the USSR. Hitler was doomed when he failed to knock out the Soviets in the first round of 1941. Despite Stalin's whining and complaining, US and British aid was most certainly not required for the Soviets to demolish the Germans. Their factories were ridiculously out of German reach, their manpower was colossal, and they were about to unleash the most important weapon of the war- the T-34. Bombing the Reich helped speed things up a little, as did invading from the West. But the Soviets were already crushing the Germans handily before the Allies invaded.

I'm often amazed, at least briefly, about how pro-American most accounts of WW2 are. Absolutely, the US was the chief architect of victory in the Pacific. But their contributions to the war against Germany were about as important as the contributions of Britain and her allies against Japan. Japan was doomed when it attacked the US, Germany was doomed when it attacked the Soviet Union and failed to knock out Stalin in year 1. The inevitable battles of attrition that followed massively favored the US and the USSR.

Britain (and Canada, the forgotten 6th power) were important in first denting the image of Germany as undefeatable, but Hitler could have signed a peace agreement with them (and the US) in 1942 and he still would've lost the war. Badly.

Now if Japan and Germany had turned on the USSR instead- maybe that would've worked. Germany and the US against Japan and the USSR? Unlikely at that point in the war, and it probably would've ended with the US taking out Japan while the USSR took out Germany.

[Jimbuna]

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.:huh:

But what do I know.:lol:

Not very much apparently http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/scream.gif

The US would have declared war on Germany.

Roosevelt knew that a European continent ruled by Germany would eventually become a threat to the US in trade terms amongst others.

Add to that the close relationship between the US and the UK both in historical and in inhabitants terms.....I honestly don't think Roosevelt had much choice.

Could you imagine the might of Germany should she gain control of the Royal Navy and possessions/resources of the British Empire.

[bert8for3]

I agree there would eventually have been a US declaration of war, but when is the question.

I recently finished reading "The Pearl Harbor Myth", don't recall the author's name off the top. If one subscribes to the theory, Roosevelt had decided long before 12/7/41 that the European situation presented the greater threat and that it was essential to enter the war in the European theatre as a priority, and that preparations had to give recognition to that priority, even if it meant that a likely Pacific theatre was given less in way of resources. The trick was how to enter the war in Europe.

The analysis goes on that Roosevelt embarked on a deliberate programme of provocation on both fronts. If it ended up with Hitler declaring war, so much the better. If it ended up with Japan declaring war, whether attacking first or not, and thereby triggering a declaration of war by Hitler, then that was fine also.

The problem, so to speak, was that Hitler was ignoring the provocations, despite an essentially undeclared state of war. Absent a declaration of war, Roosevelt had to find sufficient cause in some incident or other that would not only justify a declaration of war against Hitler, but one that would also be of sufficient weight to rally popular opinion in the US fully behind him. He was still faced with considerable division of domestic opinion.

When sufficient cause might have arisen, or been perceived as such by Roosevelt, is a matter of speculation. One might imagine that chances are that with US naval forces increasingly engaged in convoy escort duties, a large unit would at some point have been sunk, whether deliberately or otherwise, providing "enough" cause.

[Hanomag]

I voted 'Other', not because I have another idea, but because I don't have any idea at all.

LOL me 2... :rotfl:

[BasilY]

The war would have been entirely diffrent if Germany and the US wouldnt have declared war on each other, Germany should have not let japan in to the Axis side of the war. So america wouldnt have declared war, then Britian would have more than likely been taken over since america wouldnt be in the war (for germany atleast) and the war might have lasted alot longer. It is a good thing that america got in the war, If germany would have won.:huh:

But what do I know.:lol:
Not very much apparently http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/scream.gif

The US would have declared war on Germany.

Roosevelt knew that a European continent ruled by Germany would eventually become a threat to the US in trade terms amongst others.

Add to that the close relationship between the US and the UK both in historical and in inhabitants terms.....I honestly don't think Roosevelt had much choice.

Could you imagine the might of Germany should she gain control of the Royal Navy and possessions/resources of the British Empire.
Why did some many here think Britain will fall and germany victorious if America didn't declare war on Germany?

That's highly unlikely because:
1. Germany had already given up trying to conquer England by Sea born Invasion by 1941;
2. American Arms and supplies can sustain England without American at war with Germany De Jure
3. If America concentrate her attention on Japan, New Zealand, Australia, and British India can shift their forces to the fight in Europe/North Africa where they are already heavily engaged. (Interesting fact: Aquitania, the ship that no real uboat ever put under the cross hair, was transporting Australian troops back home to face the Japanese threat.) So instead of Americans landing on Omaha, it will be the Kiwis and Ausis, while American Infantryman will be fighting in Papua New Guenia. I doubt the result will be much different.

Oh yeah, there are also about 10,000,000 Russians who really like to have a luger for a souvenior.

I am surprise that no one pick number 6. If America concentrate on Japan First, and ended war in the Pacific, said, a year earlier (August 44), The global situation will be vastly different today:

1. American troops would be in all of Korea, at least none from russia, hence a divided korean and korean war becomes unlikely,
2. American troops would be in Manchuria, Taiwan, maybe coastal China, making a Communist victory in the Chinese civil war less likely. (Manchuria later become a strong base for the communist during the civil war)
3. American troops and fleet in Japan, Korea, Manchuria will be facing the Russians, who will be suspicious of American motive. Stalin, being the paranoid SOB he is, will probably move troops to the east just in case America has a different agenda (Stalin were known for his own double-crossing skills)
4. By August, 44, Victory fever in Berlin should have subsided by now. Cooler heads, like Runstadt, Rommel, could have prevail.

So, at this point, an american peace plan - that restore prewar borders, Demilitarized Germany, require the change of Government in Germany, military tribunals (everything on the Atlantic Charter agreed to before dec, 1941) - with the inplicit threat of war against any side (A threat Stalin can't ignore with American troop staring down at Siberia) who refused to accept it, will be quite persuasive.

Some will say the Nazi's will still fight to the bitter end, that's what people said about japan as well..., And look what happen in Germany also, the Ruhr pocket surrender with 300,000 troops, and the Flensburg government under Doenitz didn't put up much a fight either.

[BasilY]

Even if Germany hadn't declared war on America, there would have been a big increase in the supply of material to England, and with that, the risk of more AMerican ships being sunk by German U-boats.

An intresting idea from BasilY, but I don't think the American government would have taken the bait.
What was FDR going to say when asking the Congress to declare war? "Even though Germany is fighting our common enemy the Japanese, we are going to declare war on Germany anyway, and keep helping England and Russia in their war against Germany because she invaded her neighbors and murder her own people..."

Cue Stalin, thinking about Finland, poland, the Baltic States, the purges, and the Gulags.:|\\

BTW, in December 1941, There was a pact between Japan and USSR as well. (After Zhukov administered quite a beating on them in a short border war.) What ever reason FDR had to declare war on Germany, can be used to declare war on USSR as well.

[predavolk]

BasilY, the problem with #6 is that the war between Germany and the USSR was practically genocidal. The Germans wanted to extinguish the sub-human vermin while the Soviets responded with a bloodthirst and ruthlessness to match. Both were led by Cult figures who could only be removed by a thorough, bloody coup. After such a coup, Germany would certainly have sued for peace. The USSR on the other hand, especially after 1943/Kursk, had nothing to fear about war and lots to gain from it. They had no incentive, Stalin or not, to stop pushing the Germans out of their country by force and then claiming the extra territory as their victory prize.

Again, the real struggle in WW2 was Germany vs Russia. In terms of number of troops, number of casualties, brutality, duration, land mass, and finally sheer importance. It was what Hitler ultimately wanted (and possibly Stalin too, just at a later time) and it was what ultimately decided WW2. The Pacific was an important side-show, but Japan never had a hope if the rest of the world didn't like its empire (other than Germany, no one did). Its island logistical base was just too weak. And as I've mentioned, other than a possible German rapid victory in 1941 that captured much of the Soviet manufacturing, it was endgame the moment they set foot in Russia. Too much land to conquer (by far), too inflexible a policy (vs. accepting the help of 1,000,000 anti-Stalin Russian soldiers), too many Russians vs. Germans, too much Russian vs. German production, and the T-34. It was a fait acomplit.

[Erich dem Roten]

I've always held the belief that any dreams Hitler had of occupying the UK were dashed in the 'Spitfire Summer' of 1940. The allies had a tenuous air superiority from then on that only grew until it was completely dominant (chalk it up to bravery, ability, and poor decision making by the German high command). I don't for a second think that the UK could ever be taken.

My opinion of Germany's best case scenario would be an occupation of the continent, from western France to their own eastern borders, with parts of Poland as a weakly held buffer. Eventually partisan efforts and Russian/allied (even without the US) pressure would lead to collapse, if it hadn't internally already (remember, Hitler wasn't universally popular even in Nazi Germany).

All that said, I don't think the United States really had a choice in the matter. The UK was an ally, and though it took Pearl Harbor to actually get an official declaration, Roosevelt was already doing what he could to help the British cause, mainly in the form of war materials.

[Task Force]

I forgot about russia.:huh: I should have rememberd them after the great time ive been haveing with there planes in IL2.:lol: It is quite likely that no matter if america would have or not have gotten in the war, Germany was gona lose. I myself think they got alittle to overconfidentin in there defences(1940-1943), The loss of uboats during 43-44 was a big notice to them.:-? I think thats the way to say it.