PC gurus, speak to me

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, the laptop search was successful, I'll try to tap into the expertise here again! :up:

My current game PC is 6 years old. Yes, almost everything has been upgraded except the MB and CPU, some items twice. So, some questions for you who keep up with PC tech.

1. It used to be pretty simple, a CPU was measured in Mhz or Ghz in linear fashion, along with cache. I have a P4 2.4 Ghz. Where can I learn about the changes since then in CPUs? Is there a website you can recommend to catch up?

2. My PC has begun to run slower. Any registry cleaners you have used on PCs that have been used for years?

3. PC Gamer has an article about a $650 PC that runs Crysis Warhead at 30 fps. I assume Crysis is a demanding game. The PC has a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo E6700 and GeForce 9800GT. Is that a good start for a new PC if I decide to build one?

thanks, I know a lot of people will benefit from a thread like this, esp. me.

Neal

[Skybird]

From a certain point on, registry cleaners only delay the spamming up of the registry, and thus they delay only the growing disorder - they do not totally prevent it. I use such a cleaner once a week, and still it gets slower - just not as fast as without a cleaner. That's why I reinstall once a year.

You may want to consider to create an image of your harddrive with your basic and essential stuff needed, and to make it a habit to install from that image once a year, then you only need to copy back changed and working data, saved games, and that's it. According software does that automatically, so the process takes some time, but not your constant awareness and work. After finishing the procedure and defragmentation, you have an almost newborn baby inside your tower again.

registry cleaner:
http://www.ccleaner.com/download (I use an earlier version myself without problems)

Image program:
http://www.amazon.com/Acronis-True-Image-Home-2009/dp/B001DSGXFY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1224250098&sr=8-2 (I use version 8 since years, without problems).

You then need a second HD with at least half the size of your regular HD, since Acronis compresses the image to around half the size of the original. But prices of HDs are not a problem these days, so get a solid one. You want to disconnect that image drive after the image has been established, so that it cannot suffer from viurusses, system problems, so you also need what in German is called "Wechselrahmen", a frame that allows you to kick in and pull out the image HD like a radio in cars, it is no money, mine costed less than 8 euros.

That is money well-spend! :yep: :up: ;) You immediately realise it when you want or need to reinstall, or have a virus infection and are not sure wether you cleaned it or not: now you just choose tooverkill: you reformat, play back the image, et voilá. It is of course an advantage if you make constant updates of your working data and keep them in one place for easier copying. I even use to put it all onto one separate partition, as far as software allows me to do, and twice a month that whole partition is copied onto a DVD via Nero: no fiddling around with scattered data, no searching and collecting it from various places, just mark the partition and hit the burn-button. After copying back an image, you only need to update chnaged drivers and chnaged or added working data.

[Skybird]

and a question I add to Neal's question. Some software simply does not make use of double core CPUs. FS9 for example does not recognize the second core, and runs with only one. My current single core CPU is a 3 GHz P4. Imagine I get a CPU double core at 2.66 GHz, does this mean then that the sim is running with 2.66 GHz single core and I need to expect it to run slower than on a P4 3 GHz, or do changes in CPU architecture compensate for that speed gap? Is a double core 2.66 running a software that uses only one core: slower, equally fast, or faster than a P4 3 GHz?

[Wolfehunter]

System you have mentioned is fine just make sure it has alot of ram. Vista like to use alot of ram.

Vista also shares Ram with video memory so you need again alot of ram lol.

4gigs or more should be fine. Try to get dual channel 2gig chips if you can afford it.

Your processor is very good.

If your like me and don't Overclock your system then try to get an intel motherboard. I never have problems with them and their prices are fair. I find their strudy too. But research the motherboard and make sure you get the latest one and best. Its worth the extra few bucks because in the long run you want to upgrade your pc when you have a few more bucks later on. If you get a lower end one your system life span will be much shorter and money wasted. For motherboard also check if the ram is compatible. Even if its the right spec certain chips don't work well with certain Motherboards. They post their ram compatibility test on the website.

Video card you have selected it very good for the $. I'm not a fan of ATI cards but you may want to take a look at them. Their prices are very good.

I may be wrong but Tigerdirect has the best overall prices.;)

example,

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4173173&CatId=2406


Goodluck on your Hunt Neal.:up:

[danlisa]

Oooh, geek time!

1) Wiki for CPU would be your first stop. In basic terms there a single, dual & quad core CPU's available these days, these compare (very roughly) as so - 3ghz Single = 1.5 ghz Dual etc....you see where that's going....If building a system to last another 5 years, you need to look at atleast a 2.5 ghz Dual core system. However, these CPU's come in many flavours and some are more user friendly than others.

2) The best fix for a slow system is a reinstall of the operating system following a full format. Failing that any system cleaner that clears the Temp folders, Internet files, registry etc aswell as defragging the registry is the best solution. Also a HDD dragging solution should be recommended, one that defrags via Name, Access etc, NOT windows defrag, it sucks. For a cleaner, I would suggest TuneUp 2007 or 2008 and for a defrag solution OO Defrag is the industry standard.

3) Yeah right, my old PC will run Crysis @ 30 FPS BUT at what settings? LOL, that's marketing for you. If you want a balanced answer for the PC offered, can you list it's specs?

What's your budget and let's see if we can build you a parts list.:up:

[jumpy]

1) http://www.tomshardware.com/us/

2) Never bothered with any reg cleaners all that much; I tried 'Reg Cleaner' a ways back, but ultimately I 'format & reinstall' (windows mantra™)

3) Crysis is pretty demanding gfx wise. That spec. is better than mine - amd athlon 64 X2 dual core 3800+ 2.01Ghz, 2gb ram, nvidia 7950gt 512mb.
Ram, gfx memory and cpu speed are where it's at. Though I'm told 32bit windows will only support a maximum of 3gb of total system memory, including RAM, GFX RAM and any other memory on your mobo or sound card etc. Don't bother with a gfx card with less than 512mb of memory these days. Intel seem to have the edge over amd, though I stick with what I know (amd) for the same reasons as you were asking about cpu speeds ;)


Start with a decent mobo (preferably one that can use 2 or 4 cores these days) with space for lots of RAM and PCIe (gfx slot - agp is not so good any more). If you're building it yourself, there's never any point in getting the fastest cpu out there for a premium; apart from some of the uber pricey ones, the choice seems to be between clock speed and cache (some of the intels have 12mb cache :o ) and go with somewhere in the middle of the range or slightly above.

'puters are a minefield though... in six months you'll be kicking yourself because all the bits you spent your money on are now half the price and your home will ring to the cries of 'Why?! Why didn't I wait just a few more moths?' :lol:

[longam]

To keep my reg cleaned and prevent spyware build up I use products from this site. I have had reg mech and spyware doc on both windows XP and Vista with no issues. I also like the real time protection of spyware, this seems more important then antivirus these days.

http://www.pctools.com/

Tom's Hardware should get you up to speed on PC components.

http://www.tomshardware.com/us/#redir

[danlisa]

IIRC Konovalov has a thread detailing his build, I'll see if I can find it.........

It's old but has some good tips - http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=102328&highlight=E6700

Just realised you have 2 threads on the go.:oops:

[Tchocky]

Is a double core 2.66 running a software that uses only one core: slower, equally fast, or faster than a P4 3 GHz?
Well, the dual-core, if it's a newer processor, will be lot more effecient than the P4, squeezing more out of fewer clock cycles.
Also, the newer Intel multi-core chips soak up a lot less power than a P4.

[Thomen]

System you have mentioned is fine just make sure it has alot of ram. Vista like to use alot of ram.

Vista also shares Ram with video memory so you need again alot of ram lol.

4gigs or more should be fine. Try to get dual channel 2gig chips if you can afford it.

Your processor is very good.

If your like me and don't Overclock your system then try to get an intel motherboard. I never have problems with them and their prices are fair. I find their strudy too. But research the motherboard and make sure you get the latest one and best. Its worth the extra few bucks because in the long run you want to upgrade your pc when you have a few more bucks later on. If you get a lower end one your system life span will be much shorter and money wasted. For motherboard also check if the ram is compatible. Even if its the right spec certain chips don't work well with certain Motherboards. They post their ram compatibility test on the website.


I may be wrong but Tigerdirect has the best overall prices.;)

example,

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4173173&CatId=2406


Goodluck on your Hunt Neal.:up:
More than 4 GB RAM only really works on 64bit systems. Even Vista 32bit can only address up to 3GB of memory, I believe.

I agree that tigerdirect is a good site. If I go shopping, I usually go to TigerDirect for barebones and to newegg for individual parts.

Video card you have selected it very good for the $. I'm not a fan of ATI cards but you may want to take a look at them. Their prices are very good.

I used to love ATI cards.. hehe Unfortunately they limited the max screen resolution to 2400x600 if you use a Matrox TH2G. =(
The barebone I bought last year came with 2 8500GT. While not the greatest card, it works really well, even in the higher resolutions.

[danlisa]

More than 4 GB RAM only really works on 64bit systems. Even Vista 32bit can only address up to 3GB of memory, I believe.

Partly true.;)

Even on XP you can enable the full use of 4GB by applying a switch to the boot.ini. This allows applications that use more than 1GB of physical RAM when running to access the additional RAM presented by having 4GB. The OS will still only list as having 3GB but apps will use it.

[goldorak]

and a question I add to Neal's question. Some software simply does not make use of double core CPUs. FS9 for example does not recognize the second core, and runs with only one. My current single core CPU is a 3 GHz P4. Imagine I get a CPU double core at 2.66 GHz, does this mean then that the sim is running with 2.66 GHz single core and I need to expect it to run slower than on a P4 3 GHz, or do changes in CPU architecture compensate for that speed gap? Is a double core 2.66 running a software that uses only one core: slower, equally fast, or faster than a P4 3 GHz?


A core2duo running at 2.66Ghz tramps all over a P4 3Ghz (for that matter a cd2 at 2 Ghz tramps all over a p4 at 3Ghz).
Don't think for a moment that the increase in performance is measured in 5-10%.
We're talking an increase of several 100%, thats how fast they are in single threaded performance, in multithread it goes even higher.
The c2d was a revolutionary increase in performance owing its success to a very aggressive pre-fectcher (and very big L2 inclusive cache) and a 25% increase in IPC.

Have a look at this comparison : http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2008-q1-2008/Serious-Sam-2,390.html (you can also change the benchmark).

From that benchmark, an Intel Pentium 4 "E" 630 Prescott 3000 Mhz does 50 fps and an Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 2133 Mhz does 120 fps (and this is a pretty low end cpu for today's standard). 50->120 thats more than 100% increase in performance.

[Skybird]

and a question I add to Neal's question. Some software simply does not make use of double core CPUs. FS9 for example does not recognize the second core, and runs with only one. My current single core CPU is a 3 GHz P4. Imagine I get a CPU double core at 2.66 GHz, does this mean then that the sim is running with 2.66 GHz single core and I need to expect it to run slower than on a P4 3 GHz, or do changes in CPU architecture compensate for that speed gap? Is a double core 2.66 running a software that uses only one core: slower, equally fast, or faster than a P4 3 GHz?


A core2duo running at 2.66Ghz tramps all over a P4 3Ghz (for that matter a cd2 at 2 Ghz tramps all over a p4 at 3Ghz).
Don't think for a moment that the increase in performance is measured in 5-10%.
We're talking an increase of several 100%, thats how fast they are in single threaded performance, in multithread it goes even higher.
The c2d was a revolutionary increase in performance owing its success to a very aggressive pre-fectcher (and very big L2 inclusive cache) and a 25% increase in IPC.
Not sure if I understand you correctly, or you understand me correctly. I am talking about software that does not make use of the second core, so that the dual core is running only in "mono": the sim does not benefit fro the second core. Or do I understand that wrong? At least FS9 is confirmed to not make any use of dual core's second processor.

[danlisa]

@ Skybird

Even if an application only uses a single core, using that application on a dual core system will see a huge improvement in performance over a single core due to the architecture of even one of those two cores. The processing power of a single core within a dual core setup is vastly superior to that of a single core.

Alas Klar? :)

[goldorak]

Not sure if I understand you correctly, or you understand me correctly. I am talking about software that does not make use of the second core, so that the dual core is running only in "mono": the sim does not benefit fro the second core. Or do I understand that wrong? At least FS9 is confirmed to not make any use of dual core's second processor.

I understood you correctly, and as I said even in single threaded performance (that means that the program runs on only 1 core) the performance of the c2d cpu will be much much faster than what is achievable with even the highest end of the p4 (p4 extreme editions 3.7Ghz...)

[Skybird]

Ah, please bear with me, the terminology played jokes on me... :)

[Thomen]

More than 4 GB RAM only really works on 64bit systems. Even Vista 32bit can only address up to 3GB of memory, I believe.
Partly true.;)

Even on XP you can enable the full use of 4GB by applying a switch to the boot.ini. This allows applications that use more than 1GB of physical RAM when running to access the additional RAM presented by having 4GB. The OS will still only list as having 3GB but apps will use it.



The /PAE or /3GB switch aren't really helpful, since you will effectively loose RAM (as far as the system is concerned) if you a use a video card or mulitple with a large amount of video ram.

I m not saying it wont work, it is just not as effective as it ought to be.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000811.html

[Skybird]

@ Skybird

Even if an application only uses a single core, using that application on a dual core system will see a huge improvement in performance over a single core due to the architecture of even one of those two cores. The processing power of a single core within a dual core setup is vastly superior to that of a single core.

Alas Klar? :)
Alles klar, jaaaaa! :yep:

[NeonSamurai]

I agree with the others here on what was said.

As for #2 like others said, about the only thing that will fix that is wiping the os partition and reinstalling. Windows pretty much slowly destroys itself over time and will eventually render itself completely inoperable (blue screen of death). Best solution for this I have found is to use a program like norton ghost or similar, do a clean install for that pc with all drivers and major programs you need installed (ie not games that shift on and off the computer, but stuff like winzip, office, etc), then ghost a backup of it. Then when the computer starts acting up again you can very rapidly do a clean reinstall using the ghosted image in a fraction of the time it would normaly take (as fast as 30 minutes). Keep in mind though that ghosted image is only good for that pc and when the hardware is changed a new image has to be made.

Also you should regularly defrag any drives which have alot of data being copyied around (such as where you install and uninstall games) using something other then windows defrag (i agree it sucks).

[Wolfehunter]

More than 4 GB RAM only really works on 64bit systems. Even Vista 32bit can only address up to 3GB of memory, I believe.
Partly true.;)

Even on XP you can enable the full use of 4GB by applying a switch to the boot.ini. This allows applications that use more than 1GB of physical RAM when running to access the additional RAM presented by having 4GB. The OS will still only list as having 3GB but apps will use it.



The /PAE or /3GB switch aren't really helpful, since you will effectively loose RAM (as far as the system is concerned) if you a use a video card or mulitple with a large amount of video ram.

I m not saying it wont work, it is just not as effective as it ought to be.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000811.html


Thanks thomen I forgot about this.:up: I remember this issue came to me with STALKER and i was trying to see if I can squeeze more memory out of my current rig. Wasn't going to happen because of this stupid hardware limitation. Thats why my new one is a 64bit system.

[Wolfehunter]

I agree with the others here on what was said.

As for #2 like others said, about the only thing that will fix that is wiping the os partition and reinstalling. Windows pretty much slowly destroys itself over time and will eventually render itself completely inoperable (blue screen of death). Best solution for this I have found is to use a program like norton ghost or similar, do a clean install for that pc with all drivers and major programs you need installed (ie not games that shift on and off the computer, but stuff like winzip, office, etc), then ghost a backup of it. Then when the computer starts acting up again you can very rapidly do a clean reinstall using the ghosted image in a fraction of the time it would normaly take (as fast as 30 minutes). Keep in mind though that ghosted image is only good for that pc and when the hardware is changed a new image has to be made.

Also you should regularly defrag any drives which have alot of data being copyied around (such as where you install and uninstall games) using something other then windows defrag (i agree it sucks).This is correct. I had to reinstall XP every 3 months because of all the clutter building up in my system. I find Vista is very stable and I hadn't had to reinstall it over a year.

Very weird habit... I'm not used to that.:D

[GlobalExplorer]

Registry cleaner, installing XP every three months, I always bang my head on the wall if I hear this. If people only learned how to make use of something like http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-dos.htm they would always have a clean system.

Concerning hardware, I think the ideal price performance spot is a Core 2 E8400 and ATI 4500, at least that was what I chose after a long search.

Or you can wait for the Nehalem architecture to materialize, it should give a nice performance boost with its integrated memory controller.

[Blacklight]

I actually like Micro$ofts online Live One Care. It's free and cleans out your computer, registry, scans for viruses and spy/add/malware, defrags the hard drive, and a few other things. It actually does a really good job considering it's Micro$oft. I run it's full service scan on my computers once a month. It takes a few hours to run, but it really does a nice job (And it's actually killed viruses and addware on my system that none of the other big name virus/spyware scanners were able to get rid of.)
http://onecare.live.com/site/en-US/default.htm?s_cid=sah

[Wolfehunter]

Registry cleaner, installing XP every three months, I always bang my head on the wall if I hear this. If people only learned how to make use of something like http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-dos.htm they would always have a clean system.

Concerning hardware, I think the ideal price performance spot is a Core 2 E8400 and ATI 4500, at least that was what I chose after a long search.

Or you can wait for the Nehalem architecture to materialize, it should give a nice performance boost with its integrated memory controller.I couldn't help it. I've used to do alot of installing and uninstalling plus many websites were a horror to my system adding stuff to it... Yes I used spybot and antivirus programs but in the end with all the tweeking and foolling around with the system I was lucky to get a years without a full format happing on my HDD. I used to hang out in alot of underground sites and hacking was a normal event especially those who hated MS + iexplorer. ;)

[Blacklight]

I actually like Micro$ofts online Live One Care. It's free and cleans out your computer, registry, scans for viruses and spy/add/malware, defrags the hard drive, and a few other things. It actually does a really good job considering it's Micro$oft. I run it's full service scan on my computers once a month. It takes a few hours to run, but it really does a nice job (And it's actually killed viruses and addware on my system that none of the other big name virus/spyware scanners were able to get rid of.)
http://onecare.live.com/site/en-US/d....htm?s_cid=sah (http://onecare.live.com/site/en-US/default.htm?s_cid=sah)
:D:D :D

[stabiz]

I do a full format/reinstall 3-4 times a year, and this keeps the computer slim and fast. I also have Ultimate Defrag 2008.

My current setup:

Core 2 Duo E6600 (2 x 2,4ghz)
4GB DDR2 ram
Abit something motherboard
Sapphire Radeon HD4870 512MB
4x 250GB harddrives
22" Samsung
500W Mist
XP Pro SP3

Not the best, but pretty good. SH4 runs at around 100 fps in 1680x1050 with everything on full + 8x FSAA, for comparison.

[Onkel Neal]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4138011&CatId=114

Intel Core 2 Duo E7300 2.66GHz, 2GB DDR2, 250GB SATA II HDD, DVDRW Dual Layer, NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT, Gigabit LAN, G31M3-F, Windows XP Professional
This stylish and powerful Systemax Venture

Pros? Cons?

What's the diff between
Intel® Core™2 E8500 (6MB,3.16 GHz, 1333FSB)
and
Intel® Core™2 Q9400 (6MB,2.66GHz, 1333FSB)

Sheesh! Ther's no consistency in naming convention. A year ago someone recommended the 6800 over the 6600 CPU, so the bigger the number, the better? :doh: I remember now why I have not bought a new PC lately....


This chart, I guess my P4 2.4 is on there somewhere....
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu

[Thomen]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4138011&CatId=114

Intel Core 2 Duo E7300 2.66GHz, 2GB DDR2, 250GB SATA II HDD, DVDRW Dual Layer, NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT, Gigabit LAN, G31M3-F, Windows XP Professional
This stylish and powerful Systemax Venture
Pros? Cons?

What's the diff between
Intel® Core™2 E8500 (6MB,3.16 GHz, 1333FSB)
and
Intel® Core™2 Q9400 (6MB,2.66GHz, 1333FSB)

Sheesh! Ther's no consistency in naming convention. A year ago someone recommended the 6800 over the 6600 CPU, so the bigger the number, the better? :doh: I remember now why I have not bought a new PC lately....


This chart, I guess my P4 2.4 is on there somewhere....
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu

I think the Q9400 is a quad core cpu

[SUBMAN1]

I think the Q9400 is a quad core cpuI think you would be correct with that statement. All Intel CPU's that start with Q are quads, though i don't get into them much. AMD rules the server market which is why.

I doubt you could find an Intel based higher end x86 server since the AMD's stomp them pretty good. It has a lot to do with the memory controllers though in that AMD has a direct connection to the memory and Intel's are still stuck going through the FSB. So from a server standpoint, AMD is top dog. From a gaming stantpoint, Intel will beat them. It all comes down to what you are doing with the machine. That new AMD 9950 Quad however stomps most Intel CPU's so I am guessing AMD may be back from a desktop/gaming standpoint these days however.

Intel may up the ante soon however. Their next CPU bypasses the FSB for a direct connect to the memory. Should be an interesting design. Speculation in the higher end server market is already starting.

-S

[kiwi_2005]

I find Uninstaller 2008 a good registry cleaner its not actually a reigisty cleaner, It tracks the uninstallation and removes any traces like registry keys, values, and orphan files after uninstallation. Way better than the normal add & remove that windows has. When this sucker cleans, IT CLEANS!:yep: Just to test it i uninstalled a game through the Add&Remove windows tool then i got uninstaller 2008 to check and it found 48 registry files related to the game and removed them. Add&Remove missed them. Of course if you not going to uninstall anything then this program is probably not needed as much but its the best registry cleaner.

Other than that if my pc starts to slog real bad i use the best cleaner known to man. A reformat. Split your hdd into two move everything you want to keep to the 2nd partition or spare drive if you have one and reformat PC, reinstall windows on the C drive. PC will be like new again.

[Wolfehunter]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4138011&CatId=114

Intel Core 2 Duo E7300 2.66GHz, 2GB DDR2, 250GB SATA II HDD, DVDRW Dual Layer, NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT, Gigabit LAN, G31M3-F, Windows XP Professional
This stylish and powerful Systemax Venture

Pros? Cons?

What's the diff between
Intel® Core™2 E8500 (6MB,3.16 GHz, 1333FSB)
and
Intel® Core™2 Q9400 (6MB,2.66GHz, 1333FSB)

Sheesh! Ther's no consistency in naming convention. A year ago someone recommended the 6800 over the 6600 CPU, so the bigger the number, the better? :doh: I remember now why I have not bought a new PC lately....


This chart, I guess my P4 2.4 is on there somewhere....
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu

Try this neal.:up:

http://compare.intel.com/pcc/default.aspx?familyID=1&culture=en-US

http://compare.intel.com/pcc/showchart.aspx?mmID=33423,35365,33870&familyID=1&culture=en-US

Left one is the one I have with my new rig and the two others are the one your questioning.

[Onkel Neal]

Concerning hardware, I think the ideal price performance spot is a Core 2 E8400 and ATI 4500, at least that was what I chose after a long search.




I think I am narrowing the search down now, thanks. Looking at a E8400 with a nVidia 980... still learning and reading.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Hi Neal!

I have a E4700, 4gb ram (dual 2gb 800mhz), Geforce 9600GT, 500gb sata 2 and a 19" wide.

I must say that this machine is a bullet! I can run Crysis on high settings and flowing like a river. Loading times on SH3 decreased substantially. With 4gb of ram I can alt+tab instantly at any game, at any time. I can even run 5 games at the same time, alt+tabbing between then!

I recommend more ran and more hd. I thought 500gb would be enough, but after 2 months, the hd is already full, and I'm having to delete and backup stuff.

:up:

[Skybird]

Hi Neal!

I have a E4700, 4gb ram (dual 2gb 800mhz), Geforce 9600GT, 500gb sata 2 and a 19" wide.

I must say that this machine is a bullet! I can run Crysis on high settings and flowing like a river. Loading times on SH3 decreased substantially. With 4gb of ram I can alt+tab instantly at any game, at any time. I can even run 5 games at the same time, alt+tabbing between then!

I recommend more ran and more hd. I thought 500gb would be enough, but after 2 months, the hd is already full, and I'm having to delete and backup stuff.

:up:
And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?

[SUBMAN1]

Actually, the AMD 9950 Quad seems to be the sweet spot for only $170 or less these days. The E8400 will beat it for gaming 2 out of 3 times, but overall, the 9950 is better for an all around CPU such as compression, etc.

The ATI 1GB 4870 also is the gaming card for those on a budget. Do not buy a 9800 - that is a 'last' generation board. The 260 and 280 are NVidia's current gen.

Some articles on the subject:
ATI 4870 1GB vs Nvidia - http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3415


Some stats on the CPU's:

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17174.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17173.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17175.png

Here are some compression stats:

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17160.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17161.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17165.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17162.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/amdphenom9350e_070108145125/17158.png

[goldorak]

And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?

Oh man, you could do some amazing things on the vic-20. :p
Did you have the tape recorder also, for storing and loading programs ?

[SUBMAN1]

Some perf #'s on what the $250 4870 1GB performs at on 2 of the most GPU hungry games there is:

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/1gb4870_092408101853/17393.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/1gb4870_092408101853/17397.png

[Thomen]

And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?
Yours must have been broken.. mine had 5kb. :up:
Good ol' datasette times and software trading using an anonymous P.O box.. :arrgh!:

whoops.. I didn't say that!

[SUBMAN1]

And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?
Yours must have been broken.. mine had 5kb. :up:
Good ol' datasette times and software trading using an anonymous P.O box.. :arrgh!:

whoops.. I didn't say that!Many ViC-20 emulators still abound!

-S

[goldorak]

And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?
Yours must have been broken.. mine had 5kb. :up:
Good ol' datasette times and software trading using an anonymous P.O box.. :arrgh!:

whoops.. I didn't say that!

Actually he's right.
I had a vic 20 and once booted you had the on screen message "3150 bytes free" or something like that.
Not 5kBytes thats for sure.
Maybe in a later revision they added 2kB :rotfl:

[SUBMAN1]

And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?
Yours must have been broken.. mine had 5kb. :up:
Good ol' datasette times and software trading using an anonymous P.O box.. :arrgh!:

whoops.. I didn't say that!
Actually he's right.
I had a vic 20 and once booted youhad the messagge 3150 bytes free or something like that.
Not 5kBytes thats for sure.
Maybe in a later revision they added 2kB :rotfl:If I had to guess, you had 5K total, but the OS ran in the top portion leaving you with 3150 bytes. Remember, the OS has to run in some portion of memory.

-S

[GlobalExplorer]

I can't comment on submans Phenom figures, but the 4870 run too hot. With the 4850 you get very good performance for a lot less money and heat.

Submans CPU charts were interesting to say the least. I would however consider that the E8400 overclocks really good. Mine runs 3600 Mhz (a 20% increase) without any ceremony, and would probably go higher, if I push voltages / cooling.

Don't know about dollars, but E8400 are priced at 120€, E8500 at 160€ and E8600 at 220€. So with the E8600 just 666Mhz / 20% faster it's fairly obvious that the E8400 is the price/performance champion among the Core2's.

In addition there are very mature and cheap boards based on the IP35 / IP45 chipsets, like the Abit IP35-E I'm running (really fast & stable board without unnecessary features for just 75€).

Tip: save some money on the CPU and video and invest in a really good
PSU. I personally recommend something like the Corsair 650TX, high quality cables / voltages for <100€. Loose cables were the number 1 stability issue with my last build! So I'd rather not get cable management, it will only create problems.

P.S. I copied you the list of what I got (prices from two months ago but have not moved):

Mainboard: Abit IP35-E (http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/ip35economy/)
RAM: Crucial DIMM 4 GB DDR2-800 Kit BL2KIT25664AA804 ~95€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Arbeitsspeicher_DDR2-800/Crucial/DIMM_4_GB_DDR2-800_Kit/239297/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Arbeitsspeicher&l2=DDR2&l3=DDR2-800)
CPU: E8400 ~125€
Heatsink: Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme ~50€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/CPU_Luefter/Thermalright/Ultra-120_eXtreme/201799/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=CPU&l2=K%C3%BChler)
Video: Sapphire HD4850 1024MB ~170€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Grafikkarten_ATI_PCIe/Sapphire/HD4850/279489/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Grafik&l2=Karten+PCIe&l3=ATI)
PSU: Corsair CMPSU-650TX ~100€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Netzteile_ueber_600_Watt/Corsair/CMPSU-750TX/233915/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Energie&l2=Netzteile&l3=%C3%BCber+600+Watt)
HD: Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640 GB ~60€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Festplatten_3,5_Zoll_SATA/Western_Digital/WD6400AAKS_640_GB/245327/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Festplatten&l2=SATA&l3=3%2C5+Zoll)
Fans (CPU, Case): Scythe Slip Stream 500upm (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Gehaeuse_Luefter/Scythe/Slip_Stream_SY1225SL12L/239057/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Cooling&l2=Geh%C3%A4usel%C3%BCfter&l3=Standard)

And everyone should have a look at those WD 640AAKS. Almost the optimal HD, with a two platter high data density design. In practice nearly as fast as Raptors, but cool and quiet, and for half the price! I got two of them, the second one for images and backups.

[Onkel Neal]

Subman, thanks. I sm thinking the video card will be replaced in a year anyway, but I will look into the ATI card you suggest.

GE, yeah, I think the 8400 is the CPU for me, from all I've read I feel comfortable with that choice, plus I always use Intel. What are the components you listed? MB, CPU, ram, etc... you should have labeled them, now I have to look them all up :lol:

Thanks and keep it coming, I know there are others here who will appreciate your expertise.

Neal

[SUBMAN1]

One thought comes to mind though - if you go Intel, get a quad. Don't go with a dual core. You may not need it right off, but a lot of games coming down the pike are claiming to use the third and forth cores for better physics, and environmental effects. You won't get that if you only have dual cores, or it will be reduced. Get one of those Intel Quads if you want to go Intel. They don't cost really that much more.

The length of time you seem to keep a gaming system, it would be worth it.

-S

[stabiz]

... or stick with a good dual core cpu like the 8400 and buy a mobo that supports quads. (Most do nowadays)

Oh, and if you are looking at the HD 4870, do NOT buy the one from Sapphire. World of hurt.

[GlobalExplorer]

Neal I fixed that.

I don't agree with Subman here, if you get a quadcore now you also need a more expensive mainboard and you will not see a performance increase in your games. Quadcores run desktop applications faster (photoshop, compression, etc), but seriously, a Pentium 4 or Athlon is already more than sufficient for desktop applications.

There might be a benefit in one or two years but right now you will not find many games that make full use of two cores, let alone four. I personally expect multicores to develop their full potential only when the next generation of operating systems and compilers arrives, i.e. in the next years.

There is of course no reason not to get one. But for games it's not really worth the money imo. If you are a scientist who runs earthquake simulations every day this might be a different situation.

[Thomen]

And I once had a Commodore VC-20 with 3.5 KB :-?
Yours must have been broken.. mine had 5kb. :up:
Good ol' datasette times and software trading using an anonymous P.O box.. :arrgh!:

whoops.. I didn't say that!
Actually he's right.
I had a vic 20 and once booted you had the on screen message "3150 bytes free" or something like that.
Not 5kBytes thats for sure.
Maybe in a later revision they added 2kB :rotfl:

How Subman described it is correct.. :up:

...It came with 5 KB RAM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_memory), but 1.5 KB were used by the system for various things, like the video display...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_VIC-20

[Wolfehunter]

One thought comes to mind though - if you go Intel, get a quad. Don't go with a dual core. You may not need it right off, but a lot of games coming down the pike are claiming to use the third and forth cores for better physics, and environmental effects. You won't get that if you only have dual cores, or it will be reduced. Get one of those Intel Quads if you want to go Intel. They don't cost really that much more.

The length of time you seem to keep a gaming system, it would be worth it.

-S:up: Correctomundo. Quad all the way. You have to look to the future.;)

Nice results subman.:up:

The Geforce GTX280 solo takes alot of juice some as high as 400 watts of power depending on which brand you buying and if you OC it.

Make sure you get a strong powersupply if you get this beast Neal.

[goldorak]

Correctomundo. Quad all the way. You have to look to the future.;)

Nice results subman.:up:

The Geforce GTX280 solo takes alot of juice some as high as 400 watts of power depending on which brand you buying and if you OC it.

Make sure you get a strong powersupply if you get this beast Neal.


No, unless you're using heavy multithreaded applications, the way to go is to buy a very very fast core2duo. You can save money on the cpu and use the difference for getting a really good graphics card to improve performance.
99% percent of games don't even use 2 cores, let alone 4 or 8 (nehalem processors with hyperthreading).
Don't buy into the hype, if your compiling all day long, using multithreaded photoshop filters etc... then by all means buy a quadcore.
Otherwise you will see no increase in performace for day to day applications.

[Wolfehunter]

Correctomundo. Quad all the way. You have to look to the future.;)

Nice results subman.:up:

The Geforce GTX280 solo takes alot of juice some as high as 400 watts of power depending on which brand you buying and if you OC it.

Make sure you get a strong powersupply if you get this beast Neal.


No, unless you're using heavy multithreaded applications, the way to go is to buy a very very fast core2duo. You can save money on the cpu and use the difference for getting a really good graphics card to improve performance.
99% percent of games don't even use 2 cores, let alone 4 or 8 (nehalem processors with hyperthreading).
Don't buy into the hype, if your compiling all day long, using multithreaded photoshop filters etc... then by all means buy a quadcore.
Otherwise you will see no increase in performace for day to day applications.your right but it helps. Windows and other OS can use the multi processors to do stuff while the main processor is reserved for the primary program running. Well I hope the OS's are geared that way?

[goldorak]

your right but it helps. Windows and other OS can use the multi processors to do stuff while the main processor is reserved for the primary program running. Well I hope the OS's are geared that way?

I'd recommend you take a look at task manager and see just how much the kernel is taking in terms of cpu usage. You'll be surprised it doesn't go beyond 1-2% max.
Now if we talk about having different programs active at the same time (say antivirus, firewall, etc...), then yes multicore cpu can help, but my point was that having a top of the line core2duo + top of the line graphics card will get you more performance in games than buying a quadcore (whose max frequency doesn't scale as well as dual core cpu's) and a mid/top level graphics card.

Crysis (which is the benchmark in pc games) doesn't even scale with # cores !!!
Flight Simulator X is another offender, it scales much more with core frequency than with number of cores.
Falcon 4 AF, scales with 2 cores and with frequency (its a largely cpu bound game). Beyond 2 core you won't see improvement.
Black Shark is not multicore aware (but scales with frequency).
Sh 3 and 4 are not multicore aware (but they scale with frequency)
etc....

you get the gist.

Multicore aware games will of course come out, but not before the gaming development comunity embraces and targets esclusively DX 11 games.
At that won't be the case for at least several years (until the succesor to the xbox 360 comes out).

[GlobalExplorer]

[Quad all the way. You have to look to the future.;)


If theres's one thing to learn from the last 20 years then it's that early adoption doesn't pay off. Ask that the people who bought 486DX-33, "487" arithmetic coprocessors or in more recent years the GForce3 or Athlon FX because they wanted to be prepared for the future.

I would say get a Dual Core now when they are mature and at the lower price limit.

[SUBMAN1]

If theres's one thing to learn from the last 20 years then it's that early adoption doesn't pay off. Ask that the people who bought 486DX-33, "487" arithmetic coprocessors or in more recent years the GForce3 or Athlon FX because they wanted to be prepared for the future.

I would say get a Dual Core now when they are mature and at the lower price limit.I had all those things you mentioned (except the co-proc since a DX CPU had an FPU built in already- the co was for you underpowered SX people, and I never had the FX yet and that's new) and I used them all.

So you were saying?

Geforce 3 played Morrowind really good with the new pixel shaders that no one else had! Great purchase! I still have it matter of fact in a box somewhere. As for FPU's, all procs since Pentium on have them. I even had access to one of the fist 100 Mhz Pentiums probably on the West Coast, and man did it play Mechwarrior good! Had a midi board in that system and Doom sounded awesome too!

Quite frankly, early adopters got to max out graphics when no one else could. Same goes for today.

And for a little side-note - quads are not new anymore. They are becoming mainstream. Quads would have been an early adopter thing about a year or more ago anyway. Now I see all the game companies starting to make use of them, so about the time Neal puts together a system, games will probably be trickling in.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Just for the fun, here are your quad core games coming down the pike. Some are already here:

http://www.alanwake.com/

http://www.supremecommander.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_2:_Episode_Two

http://www.unrealtechnology.com/

http://www.splintercell.com/

Patch to be released for this:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorX/


An article about quad:
http://techgage.com/article/intel_core_2_quad_q6600/7

They also say Crysis will use quads, but I have yet to see anything that shows a perf improvement over duals yet.

The short of it though, Quad will be a necessity going into 2009 so I wouldn't want to be caught without it if it were my only gaming system and I were upgrading right now, and I knew I wasn't going to upgrade it for 2 years or more.

Just my 2 cents as always.

-S

[Onkel Neal]

Hmmm.... so, get a Duo now with a MB that will support a Quad for the future, is that an option?

The length of time you seem to keep a gaming system, it would be worth it.

Lol, yeah, I know, I hang onto stuff as long as possible. If it wasn't for gaming, I would still be running Win95 on a Pentium 100.:rotfl:


Mainboard: Abit IP35-E (http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/ip35economy/)
RAM: Crucial DIMM 4 GB DDR2-800 Kit BL2KIT25664AA804 ~95€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Arbeitsspeicher_DDR2-800/Crucial/DIMM_4_GB_DDR2-800_Kit/239297/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Arbeitsspeicher&l2=DDR2&l3=DDR2-800)
CPU: E8400 ~125€
Heatsink: Thermalright Ultra-120 eXtreme ~50€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/CPU_Luefter/Thermalright/Ultra-120_eXtreme/201799/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=CPU&l2=K%C3%BChler)
Video: Sapphire HD4850 1024MB ~170€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Grafikkarten_ATI_PCIe/Sapphire/HD4850/279489/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Grafik&l2=Karten+PCIe&l3=ATI)
PSU: Corsair CMPSU-650TX ~100€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Netzteile_ueber_600_Watt/Corsair/CMPSU-750TX/233915/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Energie&l2=Netzteile&l3=%C3%BCber+600+Watt)
HD: Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640 GB ~60€ (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Festplatten_3,5_Zoll_SATA/Western_Digital/WD6400AAKS_640_GB/245327/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Festplatten&l2=SATA&l3=3%2C5+Zoll)
Fans (CPU, Case): Scythe (http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Gehaeuse_Luefter/Scythe/Slip_Stream_SY1225SL12L/239057/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Cooling&l2=Geh%C3%A4usel%C3%BCfter&l3=Standard)



thanks!

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, GTX280 is way too pricey, so I will switch to the ATI 4850, as suggested.

Prelim list (tell me what's wrong or what won't work, or what could be better)

Rosewill RX750-D-B 750W ATX12V v2.2 & EPS12V v2.91 SLI 8800GTX SLI CrossFire Ready Active PFC PFC Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182069)Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115036)combo $290

OR

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037&cm_sp=MyNewegg-_-TopSel-_-Pst02Image)Great savings w/ EVGA motherboard combo, (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037&cm_sp=MyNewegg-_-TopSel-_-Pst02Image)(Though I don't see the MB in the page...) $165




OR



Rosewill RX950-D-B 950W ATX12V v2.2 & EPS12V v2.91 SLI 8800Ultra SLI CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182097)Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300 Yorkfield 2.5GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80580Q9300 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115043)$360



other stuff:

https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=7559785 (https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=7559785)



.

[GlobalExplorer]

Neal if you get a core2 I would notrecommend a board with NVidia Chipset (EVGA), they are expensive, the IP45 and even the IP35 are a great choice.

I would not get the E8500 if the E8400 is so much cheaper. If you get a good overclocking board like the BIOSTAR TPower IP45 you can run the E8400 at E8600 speeds, it's really not a big deal, especially with the new E0 stepping.

I for myself am no fan of high end systems, I prefer to buy what used to be a high end system 1-2 years ago. For great a price / performance deal I recommend: IP35 or IP45 mainboard, 4GB DDR-2 800 RAM, a HD4850, and a good HD like the WD 640AAKS. If you want high end you must wait at least until Intel releases the Nehalem architecture at the end of the year. Otherwise your memory will be outdated very soon. And you will want a Quadcore, because some CPU hungry games will need it by 2009.

[SUBMAN1]

Ok, GTX280 is way too pricey, so I will switch to the ATI 8450, as suggested.

Prelim list (tell me what's wrong or what won't work, or what could be better)

Rosewill RX750-D-B 750W ATX12V v2.2 & EPS12V v2.91 SLI 8800GTX SLI CrossFire Ready Active PFC PFC Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182069)Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115036)combo $290

OR

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037&cm_sp=MyNewegg-_-TopSel-_-Pst02Image)Great savings w/ EVGA motherboard combo, (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037&cm_sp=MyNewegg-_-TopSel-_-Pst02Image)(Though I don't see the MB in the page...) $165




OR



Rosewill RX950-D-B 950W ATX12V v2.2 & EPS12V v2.91 SLI 8800Ultra SLI CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182097)Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300 Yorkfield 2.5GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80580Q9300 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115043)$360



other stuff:

https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=7559785 (https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=7559785)



.
You saw that post for a $199 4870, correct? :D Not sure if it is still going on, but it might! Not sure about Rosewell. They usually use cheap RAMDACS and power transpormers last I checked, but its been a while.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=143334

Gigabyte usually builds an excellent product, packed full of features.

-S

[Onkel Neal]

Well, I stopped by the college computer lab and went over options with the experts. Still not sure which way to go with the cores, but I learned a lot from just 30 minutes with Brian. For example, I have to decide if I want an SLI MB or a Crossfire MB. The search continues.....

[goldorak]

Well, I stopped by the college computer lab and went over options with the experts. Still not sure which way to go with the cores, but I learned a lot from just 30 minutes with Brian. For example, I have to decide if I want an SLI MB or a Crossfire MB. The search continues.....

You can forget completely crossfire o sli unless you want to use 2 graphics cards in your computer.

[Onkel Neal]

Oh? Well, ok :oops:

[stabiz]

I have never run SLI or Crossfire, but I have had several SLI motherboards. It really doesnt matter if it has that option, just get a good motherboard.

But I agree with Subman on the HD 4870, its incredibly powerful, and clearly more bang per buck than any of the current from nVidia. You have a 6800 now, no? I would say the 4870 is 300-400% faster. I pulled those numbers out of my behind, but it will be awesome for you to upgrade now, it will be night and day.

[bert8for3]

I upgraded in the spring. Just to add to the mix, here's the thread where various points were kicked around ... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133043

[Onkel Neal]

Well, to wind this up, I thought I'd mention what I finally went for:

Mobo Abit IP35 Pro
Intel Core Duo Wolfdale 3 GHz
4G Crucial ram
Zerotherm Butterfly cpu cooler
ATI Radeon 3870 512M
+ other bits and pieces

Put it all together Friday and yesterday and booted up ... wow!

I reinstalled SH3 up to GWX2.0 (haven't yet added mods in) and started it up to see how it is. The comp doesn't even break into mild condensation, never mind a sweat. :rock:

My thanks again to everyone for all the comments and advice. :up:

Nice! That sounds like what I was aiming for. Two questions; if I search New Egg for the mobo and Ram you listed

Mobo Abit IP35 Pro
4G Crucial ram

Will I see the same speed ram, type mobo? Don't the mobo and ram have to "match"?

Have you had any problems or learned anything since you built your system?

Which O/S are you running?

Is that CPU the E8400?

Ok, that's more than 2 questions, but thanks! And what case? Power supply? :D

(Got any pics?) :)

[goldorak]

An ATI 3870 is a nice card, but right now I would spend money on the ATI 4870 that kicks ass, or alternatively on the Nvidia GTX 260.
Remember that the graphic card improves performance in games much more than the cpu, at least with high resolutions.

[bert8for3]

@Neal
Re the mobo/ram, IIRC I looked at the mobo manual online before buying and got specs for RAM. But mainly, 'cause I'm no expert, I got on the phone with tigerdirect and ran through the list to check that everything was compatible.

The trouble is, things change so fast. eg I don't see that mobo anymore on tigerdirect.

The RAM is @1GB 240pin unbuff DIMM 128Mx64 DDR2 (from the box).

Running XP Home.

Yes, the CPU is the E8400.

Honestly, I had no problems putting it together. At least serious ones, just a little fumbling here and there. No problems since at all.

Learned: SATA connections are terrific, so much easier. And the cables take up much less space, so better cooling flow. Watch for sharp edges, amazing how much opportunity there is for slicing a finger. Go for a modular PSU, then you just use the cables that you need, again better cooling flow. And make sure the PSU has good wattage.

The PSU is a Corsair HX620W.

The case is an Ultra Aluminus black mid-tower. Love the case, which I chose after reading some reviews on the mobo and somebody mentioned having combo'd with the Aluminus case. Then looked at reviews on the Aluminus. Nice front and side access, good cooling with front and back fan locations plus side ventilation panels. Had to remove the cone thingie for venting off the cpu cooler as the CPU cooler is so big.

Here are a couple of photos (lousy, sorry).

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p109/bert8for3/P1010001.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p109/bert8for3/P1010002.jpg

Finally, ref Goldorak about the 4870 card. IIRC that had just come out, but I was already over budget, so went for the 3870. Otherwise, I would go for the 4870. But the 3870 seems to do just fine.

Hope that helps.

[goldorak]

Such a nice case spoiled by those awful fingerprint marks on the side. :D

[bert8for3]

Such a nice case spoiled by those awful fingerprint marks on the side. :D

It's true :rotfl: . Must be Bernard's; they're not mine. edit/add: reminder to self: clean up before the company arrives :D

[GlobalExplorer]

Nice! That sounds like what I was aiming for. Two questions; if I search New Egg for the mobo and Ram you listed

Mobo Abit IP35 Pro
4G Crucial ram

Will I see the same speed ram, type mobo? Don't the mobo and ram have to "match"?

Have you had any problems or learned anything since you built your system?

Which O/S are you running?

Is that CPU the E8400?



If I remember right I was the one who recommended bert the IP35Pro. I think it's still a great choice. But there is a little problem, and that is Abit. They are going out of the mainboard business at the end of the year. So there could be problems with BIOS support. At the moment nobody knows exactly how they will support their mainboards from next year on.

If you order the CPU now you will probably get a E8400 E0, which is the current stepping. I use myself that said E8400 E0 on a IP35-E board, which is the little brother of the IP35-Pro (no RAID, no Crossfire, but a very fast and reliable board with exactly the features I will need). And all IP35 boards have a serious problem with the temperature reading of the E0 (sensor is stuck at 98C on mine). So I don't know what to recommend you. I have disabled temperature alarm, and fan control, and apart from that the board works excellent, stable and fast, I really like it. But a bug is a bug for sure. And no one knows if Abit will release a BIOS with a fix for the E0.

I can live with it, but if you're looking for an alternative, I keep hearing great things about the Biostar TPower IP45, or you might have a look at the various Gigabyte boards.

Concerning the RAM, the Crucial Ballistix RAM I recommended in my link works perfect with the IP35, and a lot of other people use GSkill RAMs with that board. In any case you should run DDR2-800 or DDR2-1066 RAM in that combo.

Hope that helps and does not confuse you more than anything.

I can also recommend the Corsair PSU, but don't go for the HX, some people reported problems. The TX have no such issues. And if you don't mind some extra noise, have a look at PCPower and Cooling, which is the best PSU brand, except noise.

[goldorak]

I'd recommend Gigabyte or Intel branded motherboards. The later if you're not interested in overclocking, the former in case you're interested in overclocking.
Both manufacturers produce feature rich motherboards at "acceptable"prices.
Nothing like the price gouging that goes on in asus-land with the rog series motherboards. :roll:

[GlobalExplorer]

Yes, Asus just lives from their past, I would look elsewhere.

Gigabyte is a good choice if you just want a running system and dont mind the silly colors.

I also keep hearing good things about Biostar. Allegedly a lot of the former Abit engineers have switched to Biostar.

But I don't know about the intel boards, imo they are really very basic and overpriced.

[goldorak]

Gigabyte is a good choice if you just want a running system and dont mind the silly colors.


Color is not an issue unless your computer case has a side window. :p


I also keep hearing good things about Biostar. Allegedly a lot of the former Abit engineers have switched to Biostar.

But I don't know about the intel boards, imo they are really very basic and overpriced.

Intel boards are quite good.
They have 3 year warranty and most are feature rich.
Don't try to do heavy overclocking though.

[CaptainHaplo]

OK I have to jump in here.... Neal, if your going to go with an intel cpu - go with an nvidia gpu. If you go AMD, get an ATI gpu. While I have been an AMD and ATI guy for a long time, the fact is that Intel is kicking AMD's tail when it comes to gaming right now (price/performance). Since intel now owns nvidia, there are some under the hood benefits that come with running "matching" hardware.

Now, I wont touch the issue of the PS other than go bigger than what you need.

The biggest thing you need to look at when your building any box is cooling. Whatever you build is going to make heat, and its looking like its going to make lots of it. Is noise an issue for you? If not, then make sure you just use 120mm case fans to both push hot air out and pull good "cool" air in. Don't use smaller fans because you will need more to accomplish the same rate of airflow. If noise IS an issue for you - go with Zalman fans (or another high quality maker). If you really want it quiet - go with water cooling. Contrary to what most think, its safe, VERY effective and real quite. If you go liquid - plan on 2-3 hundred for the cooling system and blocks (CPU, GPU, Memory, even HD coolers), but you can always move it from this rig to another in the future.

[GlobalExplorer]

I agree on the 120mm fans. I was used to my old Athlon system that mostly used 80mm's, and the 12cm fans are now almost inaudible.

I use several of the Japanese Scythe Slipstream 500 upm fans, they dont move that much air but more than enough. 500 upm are practically noise free except some weak air stream, and they don't cost much (~8€ per fan).

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article832-page1.html

But I'm not interested in water cooling, they still use fans, and I can get a cool and quiet system on air for much less money and hassle.

[goldorak]

Noctua fans are top quality, 12cm and 8 cm variants.
They come with a full 6 years warranty. !!!
The brand is pretty known in europe, don't know about usa though.

[GlobalExplorer]

From the silentpcreview article:

Finally there's the issue of price. Scythe Slip Stream fans typically sell in the US and Canada for no more than $10, sometimes as little as $8. This is a far cry from the $15~20 for a Nexus 120 or $18~25 for a Noctua 120. It's not the bargain basement value price of $3~5 for a Yate Loon 120, but the Scythes are actually a bit quieter, packed for better protection in transit, and come with cable adapters. They will go, at least for now, to the top of SPCR's fan rankings.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article832-page1.html

[CaptainHaplo]

GE - water cooling is definitely not for everyone. While your "radiator" will use fans - they are usually mounted in such a way as to make literally no perceptable noise. The reason I like liquid is because its safe, VERY effective and VERY quite. Plus there is no need to constantly be pulling and cleaning filters.

I think this is a case for th 12cm fans though. Thanks for the link - may use them in a rig or 2 in the future!

[SUBMAN1]

Well, I stopped by the college computer lab and went over options with the experts. Still not sure which way to go with the cores, but I learned a lot from just 30 minutes with Brian. For example, I have to decide if I want an SLI MB or a Crossfire MB. The search continues.....If you go ATI, you want crossfire. Since you are looking at ATI, crossfire seems like a viable option, but if you don't plan to run two heate.... I mean two video cards in your system, it really doesn't matter.

-S

[Wolfehunter]

Gigabyte is a good choice if you just want a running system and dont mind the silly colors.


Color is not an issue unless your computer case has a side window. :p


I also keep hearing good things about Biostar. Allegedly a lot of the former Abit engineers have switched to Biostar.

But I don't know about the intel boards, imo they are really very basic and overpriced.

Intel boards are quite good.
They have 3 year warranty and most are feature rich.
Don't try to do heavy overclocking though.I've alway bought Intel board because I don't OC. So their extremely good and stable. If you OC I don't know and from what I've herd isn't a good idea for intel. But I could be wrong.

[GlobalExplorer]

From what I gather getting a Wolfdale and not overclocking 20% is really a waste. Once, after running the system for ~ 2hrs, I switched off and removed the heatsink from the E8400, then carefully touched the CPU to check how much the processor had heated up. Nothing. At stock it can be cooled passively I guess.

Sure some people just dont want to mess with their computer, but from a technical standpoint it's safe.

[goldorak]

GE - water cooling is definitely not for everyone. While your "radiator" will use fans - they are usually mounted in such a way as to make literally no perceptable noise. The reason I like liquid is because its safe, VERY effective and VERY quite. Plus there is no need to constantly be pulling and cleaning filters.

I think this is a case for th 12cm fans though. Thanks for the link - may use them in a rig or 2 in the future!


Using safe to describe a situation where water is flowing inside a case full of electronic components is a little too much. :rotfl:
Water cooling is good for extreme overclocking, but an excellent air cooled solution doesn't have the drawbacks of liquid cooling and can be as quite.
Especially when you're using high quality fans at low rpms.
I have 4 12cm fans in my computer and they are literally inaudible.

[GlobalExplorer]

Out of curiosity, do water cooled systems really work with water? I thought they would use non-conducting liquids by now??

Otherwise I'd stay the hell away from it! Because introducing the natural enemy of electronics (water) into your computer, is not a very good idea.

Besides, as I said, the noise argument is a thing of the past with the current generation of 12cm fans. The only real advantage of watercooling is performance, but you only need that for extreme overclocking.

[Webster]

Out of curiosity, do water cooled systems really work with water? I thought they would use non-conducting liquids by now??


they do, but its messy. yes a water leak shorts out all your equipt but an oil leak even though its non conductive will slime everything it touches so pick your poison.

there was even a you tube video showing a guy running his whole system in an aquarium filled with vegtable oil, power supply and all. there are many non conductive oils out there that work but the very expensive pumps last longer when used with water (actually antifreeze mixture so it doesnt cause corrosion) because its easier to push water than oil due to the viscocity level.

IMHO water cooling is only "needed" if your a serious overclocker and need something to control "excessive" heat.

[CaptainHaplo]

They dont use water - you use a non-conducting liquid - most are not only non-conductive and non-corrosive, but also biodegradable. They also tend to have much higher abilities to transfer heat than "pure" water. Water alone has a 25x higher ability to move heat than does air.

Guys, this is said with all due respect - ie I am not trying to be an A$$, but the attitude toward liquid cooling is a bit archaic. It did used to be a quirky and difficult thing. But that was years ago. Just like everything else, it has matured.

The idea that liquid is only for overclockers isnt right either. Why do most PC components fail? HEAT! The fact is that in a "standard" gamers rig - someone who doesnt overclock but just builds a sweet machine to play on - liquid cooling will often cut temps anywhere from 25-50 percent. Sure liquid is great for overclocking - but for the guy running a high end system - its very good too. The drawbacks are its not as easy to install - takes patience and attention to detail. The positives - no monthly cleaning of filters and fans, just a once a year tank fill - along with components that LAST LONGER since they are kept COOLER.

Liquid cooling is not for everyone and every application. But if your going to build a box for gaming - your well served to look at it as an option!

A couple of helpful links:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/a-beginners-guide-for-watercooling-your-pc,1573.html

www.xoxide.com (http://www.xoxide.com)