Political thread discussion

[GoldenRivet]

As a member of several forums i have seen a large number of forum groups which allow political discussions.

I have also seen a large number of forums which have a "zero tolerance policy" on political threads.

For example: any thread which is deemed by a moderator to be political in its nature is quickly closed - regardless of the poster's intentions (be them good or bad) and regardless of the politics being discussed.

Such a policy as i have seen it on other forums is purely preemptive - and is meant to prevent arguments, fights and wasted moderator time rather than simply censor opinions.

Just out of curiosity - without talking ANY POLITICS HERE - what is your opinion?

Should subsim allow political discussions?

OR

Should subsim adobt a "zero tolerance policy" on political discussions?

(please note... this thread has no bearing on whether or not subsim will or will not change policy... i just want your opinions WE ARE ALL FRIENDS HERE * * * THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE)

[SUBMAN1]

No need to talk about it. It has already been decided for you.

-S

[Digital_Trucker]

This is going to sound really strange coming from a person that participates in political threads a lot, but it would probably be easiest on the site owner and moderators if they weren't allowed.

Having said that, I also believe that there is some value to having them allowed. I know that there are some things that I've learned that I wouldn't have otherwise (some things that coincided with my previous political views and some that didn't).

So, I guess if there was a poll, I'd have to vote a definite maybe:hmm:

[Bewolf]

Political debates are the very basis of democracies. Heated or not, they form a major contribution to the open discurse and opinion building. Though the latest trend of more and more disinformation and propaganda both on international and domestic levels are becoming bothersome to the degree of physical pain it is a nessecity to encourage further talk. For some people a forum is their only possibility to get a broader picture of not only homegrown issues and attitudes, but a more global one as well.

[SimNut]

Just merge them all into one thread until the election is over. If you want to talk politics then visit that one thread.

It would be nice to consolidate all of the "Pimp my Candidate" and "Slam the Opposition" threads into one location.

Maybe even make a temporary subforum until the election. Then we could all ignore it together.

[Stealth Hunter]

Political debates are the very basis of democracies. Heated or not, they form a major contribution to the open discurse and opinion building. Though the latest trend of more and more disinformation and propaganda both on international and domestic levels are becoming bothersome to the degree of physical pain it is a nessecity to encourage further talk. For some people a forum is their only possibility to get a broader picture of not only homegrown issues and attitudes, but a more global one as well.

It unfortunately gets out of hand when mods start to take sides and attack users with their powers...

*cough*flamingboat*cough*

[GoldenRivet]

now now... did you read the first post?

I suppose if a person wanted to have heated political debates they could go to a politics forum.

i think in a multi-national forum such as subsim (and others of which i am a member) the typical result of political threads ends up being hurt feelings, bruised egos, and flared tempers.

it just doesnt seem worth all the heat to me.

[Stealth Hunter]

To solve this whole thing, why doesn't Neal create a "Politics" section? I mean, it wouldn't be difficult. The GT section would be pretty boring after that, although it would solve this problem of "this is the general topics form and it is not meant for political discussion and blah blah blah".

[bookworm_020]

Having political threads shouldn't be a problem, it's only when people start to lose their heads and get nasty toward others in the forum is when it goes to far. Most threads are stoped by moderators only when people reach these limits and exceed them.:yep:

The Moderators here do a good job at keeping everyone playing nicely!:up:

[GoldenRivet]

Thats one thing to consider... but it would have to be strictly governed somehow or another... otherwise it turns into a 24/7 scream fest.

to have a moderated honorable debate is one thing... but to have the sort of "debate" we have been encountering with greater and greater frequency here at subsim is another thing entirely!

you must remember that some people here at subsim are not old enough/ mature enough - or well traveled/ versed enough to formulate a constructive debate without screaming and flinging insults.

Perhaps i have grown soft with age when it comes to politics... i have adopted the saying "East is East, and West is West and never the twain shall meet"

which means basically you will see it your way and i will see it my way and there is no way we will ever agree so discussing it pointless.

I have also adopted the saying "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

as you will notice... this is my first really "political" type thread - i dont typically start them - nor do i typically contribute to them either.

just to keep things on track, more opinions please :D

with a new option

Political only section of subsim added?

Zero tolerance policy on political posts?

or leave it like it is?

[Thomen]

Having political threads shouldn't be a problem, it's only when people start to lose their heads and get nasty toward others in the forum is when it goes to far. Most threads are stoped by moderators only when people reach these limits and exceed them.:yep:

The Moderators here do a good job at keeping everyone playing nicely!:up:

I agree. :yep:

[baggygreen]

Im of the opinion they should stay.

It is, whether we like it or not, such an integral part of our lives! Tax breaks, tax hikes, defence spending, so on so on, we couldn't discuss them because they can be deemed political.

I was half tempted to have a whinge about the idiot local candidates in the ACT election standing by the side of the highways waving at traffic and causing chaos, and point out they were predominantly from 1 particular party, but I couldnt.

We just need to keep it civil, and failing that, we need Tak's squirrel!:lol:

[Onkel Neal]

Political debates are the very basis of democracies. Heated or not, they form a major contribution to the open discurse and opinion building. Though the latest trend of more and more disinformation and propaganda both on international and domestic levels are becoming bothersome to the degree of physical pain it is a nessecity to encourage further talk. For some people a forum is their only possibility to get a broader picture of not only homegrown issues and attitudes, but a more global one as well.

It unfortunately gets out of hand when mods start to take sides and attack users with their powers...

*cough*flamingboat*cough*

The mods in that thread were not mods of the GT forum, and did not attack with their powers.

Anyway, we all need to gear down on the political threads.

thanks
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

It would be nice to consolidate all of the "Pimp my Candidate" and "Slam the Opposition" threads into one location.


Man, ain't that the truth. :yep:

We're going to start merging these threads. After all, they are all started by the same 5~7 people.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Political threads on this forum are more often than not the Subsim.com equivalent of the Jerry Springer show and we'd be better off without. IMO.

PD

[Kapt Z]

I'd say if it's ok with Neal it's ok with me. :)

[Zachstar]

Frankly I do not like the politics because they have turned this forum into something to come to when Obama makes a fart or McCain makes a bad joke. For some they perceive that if they flood the forum with topics of political nature with their obvious bias. It will somehow stick with the entire community.

The fact is tho. That if we can fire a torpedo we most likely have decided who to vote for LONG ago. And those who are undecided are not going to suddenly go to one candidate because of some loudmouth on a forum.

Want to talk about the F-35 compared to future drones? Go find the topic after it is buried in "Obama = Socialist" threads.

Want to discuss some awesome new video card? Well you just have to fight with that thread that says "McCain = Racism"

There are 2 major forums where the camps can go to.

Free Republic for the the Right Wing
Democratic Underground for the Left Wing

Now one may ask. "Well its just some weeks until the election..." "Why do it now?" Well there are multiple elections and multiple bills that will happen in the next 2 years.

[Fincuan]

Political threads on this forum are more often than not the Subsim.com equivalent of the Jerry Springer show and we'd be better off without. IMO.

PD

Amen to that, and the same used to apply to global warming threads(which reminds me that we haven't had one of those in a while) :lol:

I don't agree with a complete ban though, but a subforum just for them would be a good idea. GT has basically been a no-go area for me since it started filling with all the "Teh candidate sucks"-threads. Even putting the most active "contributors" on ignore doesn't help much since their threads remain visible in the list.

[Schöneboom]

IMO, the proliferation of political threads has definitely made the GT forum a less appealing place to visit. I would not favor a total ban, but I would approve moving all political threads to another sub-forum, so GT can lighten up.

I miss those Cheezburger Cat photos already! :lol:

[CCIP]

I think the main thing is avoiding descending to the level of venom and general bad-spiritness. I think arguments and debates are a great way of community-building, as long as they're within bounds.

On the other hand, the other thing that could really use being reminded to people is that they should really remember what this community is about. I'm actually against a separate political forum because it'd only give the topics more focus and make people dwell on them more. This community nor any specific part of it should ever be about politics. Or the environment. Or big-time sabre-rattling of any kind. I think if people come here specifically for that, they should really reconsider why they're at Subsim in the first place. There's better forums for politics than this - but let's not kill the chance to have a good community outlet for these things, too.

Also, while GT can be a more persistent headache if one takes it very seriously, I'm glad to say that I never found it more problematic from the administration perspective than the much nastier things that happened between modding teams in the last couple of years - those were a lot more difficult, but I'm also glad at the approach Neal & co. take to those, mediating as much as moderating.

Also, don't overestimate the "power and glory" of the mods. They're members too, and most of us have very limited jurisdictions that Neal assigned us. I think all the mods I know have been extremely well-behaved, though at the same time I don't think it's fair to expect them to remain aloof of everything, especialy in parts of the forums totally outside their moderating area. Mods are human too!

[Skybird]

"Alles für Deutschland"...??? A Nazi swastika attached close to that slogan...?

:down:

Golden Rivet, have you ever spend a thought on what you were doing when designing your sig? I assume you were just easy-minded, but dozens of millions turned out to be the answer to "alles für Deutschland" - they got killed. and have you ever thought about how a KZ survivor must feel if meeting you displaying carelessly the symbols of the murderous horror he survived and his family not? Not to forget that you can be understood to be a Nazi yourself when showing Nazi symbols so carelessly?

Dresses make people. So be careful how you dress.

[Onkel Neal]

Political threads on this forum are more often than not the Subsim.com equivalent of the Jerry Springer show and we'd be better off without. IMO.

PD

Amen to that, and the same used to apply to global warming threads(which reminds me that we haven't had one of those in a while) :lol:

I don't agree with a complete ban though, but a subforum just for them would be a good idea. GT has basically been a no-go area for me since it started filling with all the "Teh candidate sucks"-threads. Even putting the most active "contributors" on ignore doesn't help much since their threads remain visible in the list.

We have considered a "political/religous/global warming/I-have-an-agenda-and-I-cannot-stop-thinking-about-it!" sub forum but then that would have to be moderated by someone too. :-? The key to keeping the repititous threads to a minimum is not to REPLY to them, they would sink to page 2 pretty quickly if everyone held their nose and passed on by.

[GoldenRivet]

"Alles für Deutschland"...??? A Nazi swastika attached close to that slogan...?

:down:

Golden Rivet, have you ever spend a thought on what you were doing when designing your sig? I assume you were just easy-minded, but dozens of millions turned out to be the answer to "alles für Deutschland" - they got killed. and have you ever thought about how a KZ survivor must feel if meeting you displaying carelessly the symbols of the murderous horror he survived and his family not? Not to forget that you can be understood to be a Nazi yourself when showing Nazi symbols so carelessly?

Dresses make people. So be careful how you dress.
relax skybird... its just an SH3 Sig :roll: i assure you im a sheep in wolves clothing hahaha

besides - according to my German friend that statement signifies allegiance to Germany - NOT "the party" and is thus a slogan of patriotism which can be viewed as separate from nazism.... hence the reason i used it rather than something like "heil hitler" or "alles fur der furher" - THAT would be naziism

some will be offended by it i suppose... but im an American - if im not offending someone - im doing something wrong. :lol:

EDIT: the allegiance to Germany thing is what i was going for because my sh3 persona "Jon Wintergarten" is simply a kriegsmarine officer doing his job who is a loyal patriot of his country... NOT a loyal follower of Hitler.

[Konovalov]

they would sink to page 2 pretty quickly if everyone held their nose and passed on by.
That's a big if. :lol:

Seriously though I agree with the above common sense approach. :yep:

And people should remember that there are other categories on the Subsim forums such as SHIII, SHIV, Dangerous Waters, Sub and Naval discussions, Helosim and Flight Sims, Tank Sims and others that could be contributed to by members. Sometimes I think that some people know nothing but the GT forum.

[Fincuan]

The key to keeping the repititous threads to a minimum is not to REPLY to them, they would sink to page 2 pretty quickly if everyone held their nose and passed on by.

Agreed.

Hopefully it'll calm down after the election, although I have my fears that if the "wrong" candidate wins we're not going get a moments rest.

On another note I just noticed that PayPal finally allows one to transfer money from a bank account to the PayPal account. I don't know how long this has been so, but anyway a donation is incoming :up:
Eveyone else who has so far used the "I don't have a credit card"-excuse take note!

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

For me, no matter who wins the election, I will support him. I may oppose some/all of his policies as time passes, but at least initially I will reserve judgment until he has a chance to begin.

Also, I have moved a few "naval" topics to the Naval Topics forum. If your topic was moved, don't take it as a slap at all, I'm just trying to establish the Naval Topics forum as a place to discuss normal stuff that does not belong here in GT.

Neal

[Skybird]

"Alles für Deutschland"...??? A Nazi swastika attached close to that slogan...?

:down:

Golden Rivet, have you ever spend a thought on what you were doing when designing your sig? I assume you were just easy-minded, but dozens of millions turned out to be the answer to "alles für Deutschland" - they got killed. and have you ever thought about how a KZ survivor must feel if meeting you displaying carelessly the symbols of the murderous horror he survived and his family not? Not to forget that you can be understood to be a Nazi yourself when showing Nazi symbols so carelessly?

Dresses make people. So be careful how you dress.
relax skybird... its just an SH3 Sig :roll: i assure you im a sheep in wolves clothing hahaha

besides - according to my German friend that statement signifies allegiance to Germany - NOT "the party" and is thus a slogan of patriotism which can be viewed as separate from nazism.... hence the reason i used it rather than something like "heil hitler" or "alles fur der furher" - THAT would be naziism

some will be offended by it i suppose... but im an American - if im not offending someone - im doing something wrong. :lol:

EDIT: the allegiance to Germany thing is what i was going for because my sh3 persona "Jon Wintergarten" is simply a kriegsmarine officer doing his job who is a loyal patriot of his country... NOT a loyal follower of Hitler.

Alles für Deutschland? Really "alles"? You remember the lines: "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, über alles in der Welt?" See the linking in meaning? These lines are now not only deleted from the national anthem, they are also forbidden. Only the second of three verses form the official german anthem nowadays. And that is a good thing, and a good text. the other two are ouaäh...

Well, in some things, Anglosaxons and most other Europeans are definitely very different.

Just because we had small contact before prevented me from being harsh here. I assumed that you are no Nazi, but mindless "only". Nevertheless, if yopu would have been a stranger, you would be listed as a Neonazi in my books now. maybe that motivates a second thought on it. BTW. three quarters of the german U-Bootä-Männer got killed during the war. especially the U-Boot-part of the Marine hated the Nazis very intensely. You certainly know the movie "Das Boot". you remember the character of that text-book Nazi-German appearing. And you also recall that he was isolated and avoided by the rest of the crew, and the Käptn secretely disliked and hated him completely - and the political leadership as well.

Now try to imagine what this Kaleu would have told you if he would have seen you with a flag like that. Are you sure that you are matching reality with your self-description of how you mean it - or are you maybe just serving a self-constructed cliche: your cliche about things, that is? ;)

As I said, I find you not to be a Nazi, but mindless. This is no historic docu that gets shot. This is a game, and your sig is part of your very private behavior. that means it is being connected to you personally, not to a function in an educating project, or something like that.

[SteamWake]

We're going to start merging these threads. After all, they are all started by the same 5~7 people.

Exactly, and those handfull are not going to convince one another or anyone else for that matter to change their point of view.

A virtual example of futility.

This is the reason I abstain from any further political discussion.

[Letum]

besides - according to my German friend that statement signifies allegiance to Germany - NOT "the party"
If it wasn't for the great big swastika I would have given you the benefit of the doubt. :shifty:

You can't really claim that your sig isn't about Nazism when it has a swastika on it that is so big it doesn't all fit on.

[GoldenRivet]

take it as you will gentlemen. I'll say no more on this issue other than this;

A lot of people play with the swastika in game - so what of them?

I play a subsim which is based upon the activities of World War II Germany... i have a "character" in SH3 that i play as in my career as many other SH3 players have too... Some of us have gone so far as to develop a back story to the "character" and mine (Jon Wintergarten) is one of deep devotion to national pride and patriotism who despises the fact that his proud nation is under the leadership of a murderous blood thirsty baboon... yet - he cannot escape that fact since everything around him is coated in nazi symbology. - his papwerwork - the flags - even the very medals which hang on his chest! - he cannot escape it.

To me that is what the sig symbolizes... even though you are an ordinary soldier doing your job - your day to day life is encrouched upon by the "party"... and all you can do about it is try to remind yourself that you are doing it "all for germany" aka "Alles for Deutschland"

I'll change my sig if so instructed by a moderator... otherwise you may all just "pucker up".

that being said - my sig will probably change half a dozen times between now and New Years day!

what i really wanted - but lacked the time and ability to do - was a pin up style lady stooped over in an engine room with a bit of her arse showing as she looked for the "golden rivet". :up:

now - back on topic please?

[Letum]

When it comes to good taste and sigs I follow the "If you wouldn't have it as a bumper sticker/t-shirt, don't have it as a sig" rule.

[August]

When it comes to good taste and sigs I follow the "If you wouldn't have it as a bumper sticker/t-shirt, don't have it as a sig" rule.

A good rule to follow.

[Skybird]

I'll change my sig if so instructed by a moderator... otherwise you may all just "pucker up".

Okay, though not responsible for the general forum, this is a moderator indeed who is asking you to consider your Nazi sig, like he did here. ;)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=142395

And people said "what an idiot" when some years ago prince Harry visited that party dressed up in a Nazi uniform with a swastika on his arm... I wonder why.

[GoldenRivet]

skybird. I have no quarrel with you... Or anyone else here for that matter. I can understand your position.

It's not like my sig is an image of a gas chamber at aushcwitz.

THAT would be in poor taste.

What would be the difference if I were to display the hammer and cicle?

No difference?

I don't visit the General discussion forums much.

After 24 hours of having this sig - my first one by the way - I have met with NOT ONE objection in the SH3 forums where I typically lurk, as such a thing is pretty normal there to display U-Boat war badges or knights crosses in the sig.

As I said before, I'll remove or alter the sig if instructed to do so... But I'm not going to do it because of one or two opinions.

[GoldenRivet]

skybird. I have no quarrel with you... Or anyone else here for that matter. I can understand your position.

It's not like my sig is an image of a gas chamber at aushcwitz.

THAT would be in poor taste.

What would be the difference if I were to display the hammer and cicle?

No difference?

I don't visit the General discussion forums much.

After 24 hours of having this sig - my first one by the way - I have met with NOT ONE objection in the SH3 forums where I typically lurk, as such a thing is pretty normal there to display U-Boat war badges or knights crosses in the sig.

As I said before, I'll remove or alter the sig if instructed to do so... But I'm not going to do it because of one or two opinions.

[Fish]

It's not like my sig is an image of a gas chamber at aushcwitz.



No, but it means for me, born just before the war started, just the same.
You must be totally without any historical understanding.

[Zachstar]

Look the sig is offensive to some and it is rather annoying because it is big and red.

[Zachstar]

Political threads on this forum are more often than not the Subsim.com equivalent of the Jerry Springer show and we'd be better off without. IMO.

PD
Amen to that, and the same used to apply to global warming threads(which reminds me that we haven't had one of those in a while) :lol:

I don't agree with a complete ban though, but a subforum just for them would be a good idea. GT has basically been a no-go area for me since it started filling with all the "Teh candidate sucks"-threads. Even putting the most active "contributors" on ignore doesn't help much since their threads remain visible in the list.
We have considered a "political/religous/global warming/I-have-an-agenda-and-I-cannot-stop-thinking-about-it!" sub forum but then that would have to be moderated by someone too. :-? The key to keeping the repititous threads to a minimum is not to REPLY to them, they would sink to page 2 pretty quickly if everyone held their nose and passed on by.

That does not work Neal.

If one thread somehow sinks (Which is highly improbable due to the charged nature of the campaign) The usual people with the agenda will just repost it from a different news source or whatever.

[SteamWake]

So a thread about the merits of political discussion degrades into a pissing contest regarding someones sig between 2 or 3 people.

I think the point has been made.

[GoldenRivet]

So a thread about the merits of political discussion degrades into a pissing contest regarding someones sig between 2 or 3 people.

I think the point has been made.

DING DING DING DING

we have a winner!!!

It took so little to light the fuse, and it Didn't take more than a couple of hours either!

Now, can somone find me a good sig?

[GoldenRivet]

The politikaly korrekt bureau proposed the following :
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4332/signaturexj2xy4.jpg
:arrgh!:
ahahahahaha

I LOVE IT!!!!!

but im already working on a new one i in the interest of peace amogst our brethren.

ill have it up in a second

(Mikhayl thats freaking beautiful!!!)

[GoldenRivet]

Yeah!

now that looks cool... but i think someone else already uses a similar picture? :hmm:

[Skybird]

Yeah!

now that looks cool... but i think someone else already uses a similar picture? :hmm:

:up: Looks cool! Thanks for understanding.

[GoldenRivet]

i still reserve the right to use the skittles one :lol: