More religious violence: India

[Konovalov]

Hindu Threat to Christians: Convert or Flee (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/world/asia/13india.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)

India, the world’s most populous democracy and officially a secular nation, is today haunted by a stark assault on one of its fundamental freedoms. Here in eastern Orissa State, riven by six weeks of religious clashes, Christian families like the Digals say they are being forced to abandon their faith in exchange for their safety.

The forced conversions come amid widening attacks on Christians here and in at least five other states across the country, as India prepares for national elections next spring.

The clash of faiths has cut a wide swath of panic and destruction through these once quiet hamlets fed by paddy fields and jackfruit trees. Here in Kandhamal, the district that has seen the greatest violence, more than 30 people have been killed, 3,000 homes burned and over 130 churches destroyed, including the tin-roofed Baptist prayer hall where the Digals worshiped. Today it is a heap of rubble on an empty field, where cows blithely graze.


Been watching this crazy stuff unfold on NDTV (New Delhi sat TV). Sad and terrible. We really can be cruel to each other over the most stupid of things. :down:

[UnderseaLcpl]

This is very interesting, but I don't know enough about India to do anything but wait for educated opinions. Consider it a bump.:D

[Skybird]

:damn:

Religion. Let's leave it to that.

[bookworm_020]

The fact that many christian NGO that work in these areas have been attacked, and workers injured and killed doesn't help the local population at all. The ultra-fundementalisitic hindu's behind the attack believe that the christians are bribing locals to convert by helping them.

The groups say they don't pressure or request it, but they do make known their faith and will help any who ask for it.

It's a pity the nutters behind the trouble don't put as much effort into helping the same people they are depriving of help!:nope:

[Stealth Hunter]

:damn:

Religion. Let's leave it to that.

Agreed.

Here's something you might enjoy:


JESUS CAMP - HARRY POTTER: "ENEMY OF GOD"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

[Skybird]

The groups say they don't pressure or request it, but they do make known their faith and will help any who ask for it.

Answering when they are being asked, is okay. Just when they start to missionise unasked, and make a public display where they have no ground, they deserve to be kicked in their lower bottoms.

An aid given with the intention to spread ideology, is not a selfless help of the kind that Jesus meant. He approached people for the act of helping itself, and for the people's benefit - not to turn them into his followers.

This kind of linking that sometimes is to be seen by religious aid organisation, is especially disgusting. "You are worth to be helped only when you agree to believe like I do?" Who should have said that - Jesus...?

[Skybird]

Here's something you might enjoy:


JESUS CAMP - HARRY POTTER: "ENEMY OF GOD"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

Stupid. I wonder why they were born as humans when they nevertheless have refused their brain and killed it so thoroughly without need. They would have made fine one-cellular life-forms as well. :lol: However, I honestly believe that their children need to be protected against their parents. That'S why I am against home-schooling. children are the weakest of all, they desrve to be protected until they are young adults ripe enough to ask questions themselves, and make choices themselves, without being manipulated and ordered what to believe and what not.

Seen that way i do not enjoy your video, but it makes me sad for the kids, and angry at the stupid adults - who for the most probably were abused as kids themselves by their own parents. It's a vicious circle.

[Hitman]

That'S why I am against home-schooling. children are the weakest of all, they desrve to be protected until they are young adults ripe enough to ask questions themselves, and make choices themselves, without being manipulated and ordered what to believe and what not.


Yes, I agree completely, and have myself wondered many times why in a modern, civlized state you need to demonstrate your competency and mental stability before driving a car, or owning a weapon, but instead anyone can have as many children as he wants without any control of his competence as parent :hmm:

[kurtz]

[quote=Stealth Hunter]

Here's something you might enjoy:


JESUS CAMP - HARRY POTTER: "ENEMY OF GOD"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

However, I honestly believe that their children need to be protected against their parents. That'S why I am against home-schooling. children are the weakest of all, they desrve to be protected until they are young adults ripe enough to ask questions themselves, and make choices themselves, without being manipulated and ordered what to believe and what not.

quote]

We are home schoolers (just to declare my interest) but feel the same way about govt. interference in school curricula as you do about rabid god fearing parents, guess it's down to who does the schooling. The other reason is so our daughter gets a decent education.:know:

[Skybird]

[quote=Stealth Hunter]

Here's something you might enjoy:


JESUS CAMP - HARRY POTTER: "ENEMY OF GOD"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

However, I honestly believe that their children need to be protected against their parents. That'S why I am against home-schooling. children are the weakest of all, they desrve to be protected until they are young adults ripe enough to ask questions themselves, and make choices themselves, without being manipulated and ordered what to believe and what not.

quote]

We are home schoolers (just to declare my interest) but feel the same way about govt. interference in school curricula as you do about rabid god fearing parents, guess it's down to who does the schooling. The other reason is so our daughter gets a decent education.:know:
I admit the quality of public schools and ideological trenchwars forming curricula also is a problem. But the answer can only be to implement better quality controls and checks for ideological neutrality.

[SUBMAN1]

:damn:

Religion. Let's leave it to that.Your religion by the way leads to greater violence - wars. Germany WWII. The religion of land grab. Atheists usually degrade into religions of self satisfaction. A much more dangerous religion than any in the world.

I'll take Christianity any day! Much much safer.

-S

[caspofungin]

wow, subman, even by the standard of your usual posts, that's a belter. :roll:

[SUBMAN1]

wow, subman, even by the standard of your usual posts, that's a belter. :roll:Yep, the truth hurts.

-S

[Raptor1]

I smell overly long posts with a dozen seperate quotes in them dissecting other equally long posts coming

[Rilder]

Your religion by the way leads to greater violence - wars. Germany WWII. The religion of land grab. Atheists usually degrade into religions of self satisfaction. A much more dangerous religion than any in the world.

I'll take Christianity any day! Much much safer.

-S

Not to offend but didn't Christianity play a major part in a bunch of wars called the "Crusades"

Name one war started by atheists?

Personally I'l stick with my Hellenic beliefs. YAY ZEUS!

Also didn't a certain monotheistic religion like to start people, who didn't follow their beliefs, on fire?

[August]

Name one war started by atheists?
WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...

[Rilder]

Name one war started by atheists?
WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...

I thought hitler was that whole "Germany is God's true empire" or something.

[Konovalov]

My point of this thread was to voice my despair at the occassional stupidity of all humanity as evidenced in my comment below.

We really can be cruel to each other over the most stupid of things. :down:

I didn't post here to apportion blame to any one religion, non-religion, or race. Please lets not turn this into a "which religion/non-religion has killed more people" kind of thing. Pretty please? :)

[Rilder]

My point of this thread was to voice my despair at the occassional stupidity of all humanity as evidenced in my comment below.

We really can be cruel to each other over the most stupid of things. :down:

I didn't post here to apportion blame to any one religion, non-religion, or race. Please lets not turn this into a "which religion/non-religion has killed more people" kind of thing. Pretty please? :)

Point is: Humanity Sucks we need an alien race to enslave us for awhile. :p

[Hitman]

Name one war started by atheists?


All wars have been started and continued for reasons that have little to do with religion. Power, money, whatever you want. Religion just served as an excuse, and if the religion was already violent and aggressive, the better for the promotors of the war.

[Skybird]

Nothing better than having piety on your side when ripping human bodies into pieces.

"Gott will es!"

"Für Gott und Vaterland!"

"Gott mit uns!"

Is there one language in which these phrases have not been yelled from generals, kings, politicians, soldiers' throats?

At least atheists are more honest than the rest of the bunch. They do not claim a deity is accusing and forgiving them the committing of the bloodbath they are about to unleash eventually.

[Rilder]

Remember the good ol' days when we were bringing Roman civilization to stinking gauls! :p

[Frame57]

Nothing better than having piety on your side when ripping human bodies into pieces.

"Gott will es!"

"Für Gott und Vaterland!"

"Gott mit uns!"

Is there one language in which these phrases have not been yelled from generals, kings, politicians, soldiers' throats?

At least atheists are more honest than the rest of the bunch. They do not claim a deity is accusing and forgiving them the committing of the bloodbath they are about to unleash eventually.Klingon

[Castout]

Name one war started by atheists?

All wars have been started and continued for reasons that have little to do with religion. Power, money, whatever you want. Religion just served as an excuse, and if the religion was already violent and aggressive, the better for the promotors of the war.

Well said. Religion has been abused again and again and again and again and again and again and again all to the end of time.

What happens in India is very saddening indeed. I wonder why the politician and the police are not doing anything to protect the victims and the minority. And why the hell the whole world has turned their back on Ossetia.

[Digital_Trucker]

What happens in India is very saddening indeed. I wonder why the politician and the police are not doing anything to protect the victims and the minority. And why the hell the whole world has turned their back on Ossetia.
Probably because no one has figured out a way to make money off of either.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Rather than seeing this thread become a general flame against religion, I would like some perspective on the nature of India's religious culture and how it affects Christians and the overall state of the nation in general, if someone would be so kind:D

Plz?

[Skybird]

that is a very complex matter since Hinduism is the oldest of the main world religions, and is "blessed" with an almost insane ammount of scriptures and written tradition. for a general overview I would very conservatively recommend to try wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

Buddhism by some is compared to Hinduism like jesus is compared to the Judaic tradition: both men served as some kind of reformers of the established conservative thinking, and by that were turned by history into founders of parallel traditions that separated from the original lineage. Both men lived at roughly the same time, both men have parallels in thinking, and both men made the orthodox order their enemies. There are religion-scientist claiming that before the timeframe of the four gospels begin (before his 30th birthday), Jesus maybe travelled to India and was influenced by buddhist thinking, which would not surprise me since the parallels between buddha and Jesus (not the church!) are surprisingly unhidden, just that they expressed themselves in different cultural symbols and languages, of course. But that can only be seen if one does not obey the claim that the church dogma represents Jesus' cause.

The most prominent difference is that where Judaism and Christian Church tradition are monotheistic (as Islam, which is the youngest of all these traditions), Hinduism (the oldest) is multitheistic and Buddhism is nontheistic.

For a brief comparison between Hinduism and Indian Buddhism, again simply try wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Hinduism

But there are partial parallels between Hinduism and many other Asian traditions as well. Also, Buddhism has many different faces, some are more dogmatic and compare to the superstitious "I give buddha so buddha gives me" exchange trade mentality you often see in the popular beliefs of rural populations whose interest lies in having close ties to their deities so that they do gbet the weather effects they need to have a nice harvest, others are more abstract, or pragmatic, and do not depend on belief in the classical religious sense (Ch'an maybe being the most obvious example). See the "see also" paragraph in the first Wikipedia article. Taoism and Confucianism need to be named here for comparison to Hinduism, since both have developed influence far beyond China. the old Hinduistic tradition of the Vedic scriptures you find practically all over Asia, even if hidden in different terms and names. their cultural influence over the course of history is hard to be overestimated.

Hinduism is the most dominant religion in India, I think around 90%, with Buddhism today just being an almost non-influential subgroup (ranking amongst the remaining 10%, which also are Christians, and muslims). the classcial Indian culture was almost wiped out during the Islamic invasion and conquest from the 10th to 12th century. the modern animosities between Islam and Hinduism, that finally led to the split of Pakistan and the ongoing conflict between Pakistan and India, have their roots in that agression. India'S history goes back almost 9 millenia, and the history of Hinduism goes back at least 5 millenia. Compared to that, Buddha and Christ (2 millenia) are rebellious youngsters almost, and Muhammad (1.5 millenia) a baby. :D

[Morts]

wow, subman, even by the standard of your usual posts, that's a belter. :roll:Yep, the truth hurts.

-S
wow...you'd think a grown man (:rotfl:) would have something else to do all day than preach on how atheist's and democrats are the root of all evil

[Stealth Hunter]

Name one war started by atheists?
WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...

Where did you hear that drivel? Hitler was a Roman-Catholic and Stalin was a Deist. Mussolini was an Atheist, though (or so he said; he was very anti-Catholic, that's for sure; he might have been trying to oppose the Vatican's power in this way; who knows).

Here's a few snaps of Hitler's beliefs:

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Hitlersfaith.html

Stalin wrote himself that he rejected the idea of a Christian god or Jesus' existance. He did, however, believe there might be a god. He called himself a Deist, but I'd be edging more towards Agnostic for him.

[Stealth Hunter]

:damn:

Religion. Let's leave it to that.Your religion by the way leads to greater violence - wars. Germany WWII. The religion of land grab. Atheists usually degrade into religions of self satisfaction. A much more dangerous religion than any in the world.

I'll take Christianity any day! Much much safer.

-S

See my post above.

Hitler was not an Atheist. That's a myth that the Christians started, just like the idea that he was an Evolutionist. They're just trying to disown him and everything he did.

And Christianity is one of the worst religions out there. I mean: NINE CRUSADES? THREE INQUISITIONS? Add these twelve things together, and over a million people died. That's not including all the attacks done on Protestants by the French, Germans, or Italians, either, let alone the large number of witchcraft trials held the world over.

Look at this case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbain_Grandier

What a ludicrous religion Christianity is!:roll:

Here's something funny and true at the same time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

[Digital_Trucker]

What a ludicrous religion Christianity is!:roll:

More correctly put, how ludicrous some people who profess to be Christians are. Christianity, in and of itself, has never killed anyone. Only intolerant human beings have killed in the name of Christianity.

@Skybird Thanks for that summary of India's religions:up:

[Skybird]

:damn:

Religion. Let's leave it to that. Your religion by the way

My - what...?

Strange to be accused at times of being areligious - and then being accused to have a religion. But strange only if one assumes reasonable thinking behind these accusations. Atheism is not a religion, and I am certainly not calling myself a religious person, but at best a spiritual one. And both terms are as different as is "on" and "off".


Hitler was not an Atheist. That's a myth that the Christians started, just like the idea that he was an Evolutionist. They're just trying to disown him and everything he did.

And Christianity is one of the worst religions out there. I mean: NINE CRUSADES? THREE INQUISITIONS? Add these twelve things together, and over a million people died. That's not including all the attacks done on Protestants by the French, Germans, or Italians, either, let alone the large number of witchcraft trials held the world over.


Must we really dive AGAIN into the absolutely unique history of military conquest and submission that Islam is - the longest and most successful military conquest history knows, and to which the crusades origianlly were a defensive reaction to regain what had been taken in a wave of agression by islam?

I am really getting angry about this arguemt about crusades and how badly they beaten up their enemies. They took place before and during times when Spain, central France, parts of Italy, Greece and Balkans were militarily occupoied by Muslim armies, Europe was at serious thread to fall victim to Islam completely, and Muslim armies had won all of orthodox-Christian (!) north Africa by war or intimidation, and were busy with trying to destroy Indian culture and make it a compeltely Muhammedan country. If there would have been no Islam attacking Christian territories, there would have been other political wars - but no need for crusades.

So if telling the story of the crusades, tell both sides of the medal. they later degenrated into selfish affairs, but in the beginning they were truly defensive efforts against a marching aggressor.

Regarding the inquisition - Christian church now is beyond these. In Islam, a thinking similiar to the inquisition is declared valid and essential part of Islam until today, and prctices the same draconic, inhumane and barvbaric system of penalties to defend the dogma from abandoning, alrteration, and reform. A prominant share of Britsh Muslims want Britain to become a place where this is practiced, a prominent share of young Muslims in Britain said they accept violence to be used in acchieveing this goal, and we talk in quarters and thirds of the Muslim population here and growing numbers anyway, and in quite some countries in the world these rules already and still are practiced. A thinking similiar to that of the inquisition is active until today, and since 1400 years is far, far more successful than the Roman-Catholic church ever was in supressing reformist or alternative thinking, and defending dogmas dating back by over a thousand years that reflect the educational horizon of those ancient, old times of the medieval. The lead Arabia had over europe in the early medieval, was neutralised and turned into a handicap due to this successful brutal supression of reform and progress - the church may have hoped to be so successful, but it as not, as we know today. Arabia, not the West, should have been the centre of trade, science and commerce today, arabia should have become the place of hightech invention, silicon valeys and Nobel prize winners, but then came muhammad and his heritage strangled every promise of cultural develeopement and frooze it in total stasis for the next one and a half millenia to come. And if arabia would not have oil, nobody would give sh!t for it today, and it would be a loser and complete nobody today.

And the basic Islamic civil war rages until today, since over a thousand years. Not even the european kingdoms battled each other so constantly and enduring. I you want a count of violence and number of wars, SH, both in wars against other cultures and in ars against factions of it'S own religion Islam scores BEFORE the Christian cultural sphere. To according counts I have referred repeatedly over the past three or four years. Must we really repeat these endless fights from back then again and again and again, and then again?

[Stealth Hunter]

Sky... are you talking to me? Because if so, Islam is a pretty ridiculous religion if you really sit down and look at it, so I won't argue that point.

[Skybird]

I was directly refering to your remark on the crusades and violence of Chrisian wars, because the crusades as an argument to show how much suffering the church has brought over the poor armies of Muhammad who were at a rush at that time is a distorted argument that the media and radio and TV discussion groups and socalled experts are shoving down our throats time and again, and always and at ever opportunity. It is wrong to see it so one-sided, and I am sick and tired of this nonsense (=no-sense).

[Skybird]

@Skybird Thanks for that summary of India's religions:up:
Thank the authors at Wikipedia - i just linked to their efforts!

[Stealth Hunter]

I was directly refering to your remark on the crusades and violence of Chrisian wars, because the crusades as an argument to show how much suffering the church has brought over the poor armies of Muhammad who were at a rush at that time is a distorted argument that the media and radio and TV discussion groups and socalled experts are shoving down our throats time and again, and always and at ever opportunity. It is wrong to see it so one-sided, and I am sick and tired of this nonsense (=no-sense).

To be honest, I prefer the old Muslims over the new ones. They were more classical and noble than the ones of today (Saladin comes to mind).

[bookworm_020]

To be honest, I prefer the old Muslims over the new ones. They were more classical and noble than the ones of today (Saladin comes to mind).
And he got knocked off by some hardline nuters who were believers of the same faith. At least all religions suffer form the same problem!

[Skybird]

Saladin? The one Saladin they have named the "ruler with the iron fist"? One of the greatest supressors of reformist thinking in islam , who sentenced some of the most promising "mystics" and reform thinkers in all islamic history to death and established one of the toughest sharia-regimes of his time, and whose grave scripture tells the visitor that he cleaned the earth of the holy land from "the dirt of the infidels", and who almost ruined the state finances after the capture of Jerusalem in an attempt to increase his military so that he could push towards Europe?

Saladin is one of the most transfigured names in history! He started as a laissez-faire type of soft Muslim who committed murdernot for relgious but personal reasons, for he wanted to rise to power and influence. Maybe he sent Richard a birthday postcard, but I wouldn't read more into that than just that. Kings behaved mad at that time, treated each other nicely and respectfully while slaughtering hundreds of lesser beings at the same time. Lessing's "Nathan" marked the beginning of the transfiguration of Saladin in the Western world, but the Saladin that he describes in that work - is a myth. Think of it as some kind of "Helsinki-effect".

And if you think the old muslims were more noble compared to the ones today, I would like to direct your attention to the Almohades taking over the Muslim ruling in Spain, who took the demand of the Quran that infidels must be made aware of their inferiority and lesser worth by discriminating them very serious and had regular progroms and massacres amongst Jews and Christians, they are the ones who also erected the infamous "skull domes" - functioning towers! - like later the Nazi used hair from killed Jews to seal pipes aboard ships or submarines. Or the turkish conquerors moving to Vienna who killed the people of farms and villages in an area of I think 30 or 40 km around vienna and often did it in an extremely cruel way so that fear and terror shall spread over the land and weaken the defender's moral. Or that occasion - i apologize but I always forget the exact place, date and name - when short before king Richard arrived in the holy land, a Franconian army was beaten and taken prisoner by a muslim superior army - and they killed all the prisoners although back at that time a trade of prisoners, especially noble ones, was the rule. Richard also killed prisoners in a bastion he had taken from the muslim defenders before he moved on, but he had a mlitary reason: he did not want to have a potential enemy grouop in his rear, he had not enough man to command to guards duty to keep them in check, and he was running low on supplis, and his logistic supply lines were stretched. But the massacre of the franconian army, many noble men amongst them, took place in vicinity of the Muslim's home city, they were in full supply, had enough water, had defeated the enemy and were numerically superior. they had no other military need than to send a message of terror to Europe: "These were the best princes and fighters you could send, and see what we do with them. Want some more...?"

The old muslims, more noble? Islam - having changed? I see it has not chnaged at all, and still is the same mental attitude. I learned to see you as a smart guy here in the forum. You already said you are critical of islam, and some longer time ago you said your (war) biography holds events that made you thinking critical of religion in general. Be consistent, then: cut your remaining links to it, too. Saying you are critical of islam and find it hilarious, but also talking it nice and by that defend it wether you want that or not, is a contradiction.

[Frame57]

Interesting! I always thought Dolph was an Occultist of some sort. I guess I will peruse Mein Kampf and see if he makes any preferences in it.

[baggygreen]

I was always under the impression poor ol' adolf was jewish, by virtue of his mother?

ah well.

India is a nasty little melting pot of religion. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, Sikhs, and then more! They've had quiet times where things between all the different religions were nice and quiet, and they've had rough times where things weren't so nice. I'd have to propose though, that things were fairly quiet in the place until 10 years or so ago when our lovely friends the jihadis decided blowing innocents up would be fun. Now, from all i've read, its become a bit of a free for all up there..

[SUBMAN1]

wow, subman, even by the standard of your usual posts, that's a belter. :roll:Yep, the truth hurts.

-S wow...you'd think a grown man (:rotfl:) would have something else to do all day than preach on how atheist's and democrats are the root of all evil

If that's all you got on me, I'm safe. Enough said. Notice how I never attack you, but what would be the point if I did? Not worth the effort! :D

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Not to offend but didn't Christianity play a major part in a bunch of wars called the "Crusades"
No offense ether, but if you knew your history, you would know it was the Muslims that started this. There were 5 crusades to rescue the lands that were taken, but this is a long story and outside the scope of this thread.

What do they teach in schools these days anyway? Not much i see. Maybe the Muslims have found a way to keep this out or twist it somehow?

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Hitler was not an Atheist....Yes he was. He did use Christianity and relics to try and turn the believers towards his cause though.

Man, even the Atheist Discovery channel mentioned this! I thought all your atheists were on the same page? Of course, even your biggest members of the movement have written a book that claims there is still a 1 in 6 chance god exists. Seems one way (the Christian way, you get a 100% chance you are dead wrong if you don't believe, and the other, you get 17% chance of being wrong still. Seems that the odds are in the favor of god even from your own kind! :D

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

Hitler was not an Atheist....Yes he was. He did use Christianity and relics to try and turn the believers towards his cause though.

Man, even the Atheist Discovery channel mentioned this! I thought all your atheists were on the same page? Of course, even your biggest members of the movement have written a book that claims there is still a 1 in 6 chance god exists. Seems one way (the Christian way, you get a 100% chance you are dead wrong if you don't believe, and the other, you get 17% chance of being wrong still. Seems that the odds are in the favor of god even from your own kind! :D

-S

I suppose you have a source for this claim? Give me a link to a historical society page that states that "HITLER WAS AN ATHEIST" with facts and proof that this is true. Only one thing: the society cannot be sponsored by a religious institute (ANY institute).

Out of curiosity, what was the name of the program, when was it aired, and why was the Discovery Channel showing a program about Hitler's religion?:hmm:

[SUBMAN1]

I suppose you have a source for this claim? Give me a link to a historical society page that states that "HITLER WAS AN ATHEIST" with facts and proof that this is true. Only one thing: the society cannot be sponsored by a religious institute (ANY institute).

Out of curiosity, what was the name of the program, when was it aired, and why was the Discovery Channel showing a program about Hitler's religion?:hmm:I'm sorry - it is very difficult to find any documentation that Hitler was religious, so maybe you can? Might be a hard task for you however. Try it though. There was also a good program that addressed this to a degree on Discovery (not the one I mention above) that talked how he wasn't to some degree when talking about his personal life - It was based on who had his remains which the show determined the KGB had them but it was left open at the end.

The program I mentioned above that I saw was about the relics and propaganda Hitler was collecting to show the Christians that Germany was destined to rule the world, and how the Allies used the same tactic though to a much lesser degree. A lot of it was around the subs being used to ferry the relics back to Germany. Its been a few years however so I cannot name it. I wish i could though. That was one worth watching.

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

Not to offend but didn't Christianity play a major part in a bunch of wars called the "Crusades"
No offense ether, but if you knew your history, you would know it was the Muslims that started this. There were 5 crusades to rescue the lands that were taken, but this is a long story and outside the scope of this thread.

What do they teach in schools these days anyway? Not much i see. Maybe the Muslims have found a way to keep this out or twist it somehow?

-S

Actually, no. The First Crusade which sparked the others was caused by the Christians. They decided that they couldn't allow the blasphemy of Muslims to reach the ears of their people. Imams traveled the Europeans lands (came close to their borders, anyway), and preached the Quran. Intolerance is all it was.

Pope Urban II launched the First Crusade in 1095.

Pope Eugene III launched the Second Crusade in 1147.

The European Kings came together and launched the Third Crusade in 1189.

Pope (The-Not-So) Innocent III launched the Fourth Crusade in 1202.

Pope (Un) Honorius III launched the Fifth Crusade.

The Holy Roman Empire launched the Sixth Crusade.

France led the Seventh Crusade.

France led the Eighth Crusade.

England and France led the Ninth and final Crusade.



:roll:

[Stealth Hunter]

I suppose you have a source for this claim? Give me a link to a historical society page that states that "HITLER WAS AN ATHEIST" with facts and proof that this is true. Only one thing: the society cannot be sponsored by a religious institute (ANY institute).

Out of curiosity, what was the name of the program, when was it aired, and why was the Discovery Channel showing a program about Hitler's religion?:hmm:I'm sorry - it is very difficult to find any documentation that Hitler was religious, so maybe you can? Might be a hard task for you however. Try it though. There was also a good program that addressed this to a degree on Discovery (not the one I mention above) that talked how he wasn't to some degree when talking about his personal life - It was based on who had his remains which the show determined the KGB had them but it was left open at the end.

The program I mentioned above that I saw was about the relics and propaganda Hitler was collecting to show the Christians that Germany was destined to rule the world, and how the Allies used the same tactic though to a much lesser degree. A lot of it was around the subs being used to ferry the relics back to Germany. Its been a few years however so I cannot name it. I wish i could though. That was one worth watching.

-S

Oh, don't ask me to find the program. You're the one who made the claim. It's a logical fallacy to pull that "You do it for me" junk.

I watched the program on Hitler's remains, and it said nothing about him being Christian. That was the same one that showed a fragment of his skull and told about the KGB burying his remains in a small box somewhere in Siberia.

[SUBMAN1]

Oh, don't ask me to find the program. You're the one who made the claim. It's a logical fallacy to pull that "You do it for me" junk.

I watched the program on Hitler's remains, and it said nothing about him being Christian. That was the same one that showed a fragment of his skull and told about the KGB burying his remains in a small box somewhere in Siberia.Point proven - He was not, nor at his death, religious.

Last, someone else claimed here first that he was not an Atheist, yet you pin it on me? So for our conversation, you are the one making the claim. And for all people who have never said they were one way or the other, Atheists must make the burden of proof since I have never seen Hitler in a church unless he just destroyed it! :D :p

You are the one that made the claim that he was religious too. By the way, what Christian could kill millions of Jews? Explain that one Einstein! :D Are we seriously having this conversation? I feel like the only one with a brain here and rightfully so.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Actually, no. The First Crusade which sparked the others was caused by the Christians. They decided that they couldn't allow the blasphemy of Muslims to reach the ears of their people. Imams traveled the Europeans lands (came close to their borders, anyway), and preached the Quran. Intolerance is all it was.

Pope Urban II launched the First Crusade in 1095.

Pope Eugene III launched the Second Crusade in 1147.

The European Kings came together and launched the Third Crusade in 1189.

Pope (The-Not-So) Innocent III launched the Fourth Crusade in 1202.

Pope (Un) Honorius III launched the Fifth Crusade.

The Holy Roman Empire launched the Sixth Crusade.

France led the Seventh Crusade.

France led the Eighth Crusade.

England and France led the Ninth and final Crusade.



:roll:5 Major ones. The last were minor.

And no - you are wrong. The Muslims invaded what is now Spain, and they took over the holy lands as well.

-S

PS. Some history for you (since I obviously have to hold you hand):

The Crusades were a series of military campaigns during the time of Medieval England against the Muslims of the Middle East. In 1076, the Muslims had captured Jerusalem - the most holy of holy places for Christians. Jesus had been born in nearby Bethlehem and Jesus had spent most of his life in Jerusalem. He was crucified on Calvary Hill, also in Jerusalem. There was no more important place on Earth than Jerusalem for a true Christian which is why Christians called Jerusalem the "City of God".

However, Jerusalem was also extremely important for the Muslims as Muhammad, the founder of the Muslim faith, had been there and there was great joy in the Muslim world when Jerusalem was captured. A beautiful dome - called the Dome of the Rock - was built on the rock where Muhammad was said to have sat and prayed and it was so holy that no Muslim was allowed to tread on the rock or touch it when visiting the Dome.

Therefore the Christian fought to get Jerusalem back while the Muslims fought to keep Jerusalem. These wars were to last nearly 200 years

[Safe-Keeper]

Religion. Let's leave it to that.While I have fantastic friends who are religious and acknowledge that religion is a perfectly good tool for dealing with stressors, grief, etc... I also acknowledge that it is just as good a weapon when it comes to driving human beings to terrorism, war and genocide. Jesus Camp is a terrifying view of how organized religion can, quite litterally, destroy little childrens' worldviews. The damage done by the camp members and parents will be very hard for the kids to overcome.

I fully agree with Skybird's statement that to the degree this is possible, children should be kept away from religion, just as they are shielded from politics. I realize that this will be hard if you attend church every Sunday and pray several times a day, but... do your best. For the same reason you wouldn't convince your kids from early age that your political views are the only correct ones.

Your religion by the way leads to greater violence - wars.'Atheist' is an incredibly wide collective term for people who lack a religion, much like 'skeptic' is a collective term for people who disbelieve in homeopathy, Bigfoot, aliens, ghosts, etc. It's ludicrous to try to lump all atheists together as atheism isn't an organized religion more than skepticism is. An organized religion has tenets, leaders, etc. Sure, atheists can be united like any other group, but atheism in itself isn't a religion more than baldness is a hair colour.

I also love people who try to pull political and scientific views they don't like down to the level of religion. I hate to disappoint you, but environmentalism, "land grab" (whatever that is - I assume you mean socialism) and the Theory of Evolution... are not religions unless you redefine the word.

Atheists usually degrade into religions of self satisfaction.I assume you don't want to be loved by God, then, or enter Heaven:roll:?

Oh, and stow the "atheists usually" drivel. Your bigotry against atheists is quite clear. You may as well say that Afro-Americans this, or that left-handed people that. It'd be about as strongly generalizing, and make as little sense.

A much more dangerous religion than any in the world.

I'll take Christianity any day! Much much safer.

WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...Skeptics are even worse. Mao, the Red Khmer, the British empire, the Conquistadors. Neither of them believed in dragons and elves:shifty:.

I'll take superstition any day. Much safer:up:!

(Just in case you didn't get my point - it's not enough to say that x possessed trait y, which I dislike, hence trait y was what made him do what he did. You have to give actual evidence that it was their alleged lack of an an organized religion that caused the atrocities they commited. So far, everyone challenged to present such evidence has failed utterly).

The Inquisition, the massacre of the Aztecs, the brutality of the British empire, World War II... all caused by white people. Hence, white people are the most dangerous in the world and should be kept out of government, the boy scouts, schools, etc.
Same ****ing logic.

Or... oh! How about this? The Holocaust was carried out by Germans, hence, we should, for the sake of our nation's morals, disallow Germans and their descendants from holding public office or joining the boy scouts. The moment we allow Germany into our schools, the nation will go down the drain!

Man, even the Atheist Discovery channel mentioned this!There's an Atheist Discovery Channel? Is it related to the Hindu Sesame Street on FOX or the Buddhist Weather Report on CNN? Or do you mean 'secular', which is another broad term which means 'not concerning itself with religion' and applies to everything that doesn't put a religious sticker on it, from Kmart to the Astros to Nokia to Where's Wally:-??

PS: On the OP, Christians, too, have done horrific things in India. Look up 'Christian terrorism' on the Wiki and you'll be taken to more info.

[SUBMAN1]

Religion. Let's leave it to that.While I have fantastic friends who are religious and acknowledge that religion is a perfectly good tool for dealing with stressors, grief, etc... I also acknowledge that it is just as good a weapon when it comes to driving human beings to terrorism, war and genocide. Jesus Camp is a terrifying view of how organized religion can, quite litterally, destroy little childrens' worldviews. The damage done by the camp members and parents will be very hard for the kids to overcome.

Your religion by the way leads to greater violence - wars.'Atheist' is an incredibly wide collective term for people who lack a religion, much like 'skeptic' is a collective term for people who disbelieve in homeopathy, Bigfoot, aliens, ghosts, etc. It's ludicrous to try to lump all atheists together as atheism isn't an organized religion more than skepticism is. An organized religion has tenets, leaders, etc. Sure, atheists can be united like any other group, but atheism in itself isn't a religion more than baldness is a hair colour.

I also love people who try to pull political and scientific views they don't like down to the level of religion. I hate to disappoint you, but environmentalism, "land grab" (whatever that is - I assume you mean socialism) and the Theory of Evolution... are not religions unless you redefine the word.

Atheists usually degrade into religions of self satisfaction.I assume you don't want to be loved by God, then, or enter Heaven:roll:?

Oh, and stow the "atheists usually" drivel. Your bigotry against atheists is quite clear. You may as well say that Afro-Americans this, or that left-handed people that. It'd be about as strongly generalizing, and make as little sense.

A much more dangerous religion than any in the world.

I'll take Christianity any day! Much much safer.

WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...Skeptics are even worse. Mao, the Red Khmer, the British empire, the Conquistadors. Neither of them believed in dragons and elves:shifty:.

I'll take superstition any day. Much safer:up:!

(Just in case you didn't get my point - it's not enough to say that x possessed trait y, which I dislike, hence trait y was what made him do what he did. You have to give actual evidence that it was their alleged lack of an an organized religion that caused the atrocities they commited. So far, everyone challenged to present such evidence has failed utterly).

The Inquisition, the massacre of the Aztecs, the brutality of the British empire, World War II... all caused by white people. Hence, white people are the most dangerous in the world and should be kept out of government, the boy scouts, schools, etc.
Same ****ing logic.

Or... oh! How about this? The Holocaust was carried out by Germans, hence, we should, for the sake of our nation's morals, disallow Germans and their descendants from holding public office or joining the boy scouts. The moment we allow Germany into our schools, the nation will go down the drain!

Man, even the Atheist Discovery channel mentioned this!There's an Atheist Discovery Channel? Is it related to the Hindu Sesame Street on FOX or the Buddhist Weather Report on CNN? Or do you mean 'secular', which is another broad term which means 'not concerning itself with religion' and applies to everything that doesn't put a religious sticker on it, from Kmart to the Astros to Nokia to Where's Wally:-??

PS: On the OP, Christians, too, have done horrific things in India. Look up 'Christian terrorism' on the Wiki and you'll be taken to more info.

Yawn. :dead:

An opinion piece. How about throwing some fact next time?

-S

[joegrundman]

Oh, don't ask me to find the program. You're the one who made the claim. It's a logical fallacy to pull that "You do it for me" junk.

I watched the program on Hitler's remains, and it said nothing about him being Christian. That was the same one that showed a fragment of his skull and told about the KGB burying his remains in a small box somewhere in Siberia.Point proven - He was not, nor at his death, religious.

Last, someone else claimed here first that he was not an Atheist, yet you pin it on me? So for our conversation, you are the one making the claim. And for all people who have never said they were one way or the other, Atheists must make the burden of proof since I have never seen Hitler in a church unless he just destroyed it! :D :p

You are the one that made the claim that he was religious too. By the way, what Christian could kill millions of Jews? Explain that one Einstein! :D Are we seriously having this conversation? I feel like the only one with a brain here and rightfully so.

-S

here you go subman. I'm ever willing to help the only brain on sumsim to expand its knowledge

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6924/hitlerbishoplk3.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/w265.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1299/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/w250.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/)

[Safe-Keeper]

I watched the program on Hitler's remains, and it said nothing about him being Christian. That was the same one that showed a fragment of his skull and told about the KGB burying his remains in a small box somewhere in Siberia. Point proven - He was not, nor at his death, religious.You believe that the KGB stole Hitler's body and buried it in Siberia:rotfl:?!

Yawn. :dead:

An opinion piece. What about throwing out some facts next time?Your capitulation and lack of counter-arguments is duly noted. Thank you. Kindly leave your weapons behind and abandon your fortifications. We will begin our de-Submanification program in your country shortly:D.

Your surrender has saved our forces tedious fighting against tedious and ultimately futile counter-arguments, for which we are incredibly grateful. Have a good day.

[SUBMAN1]

here you go subman. I'm ever willing to help the only brain on sumsim to expand its knowledge

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6924/hitlerbishoplk3.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/w265.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1299/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/w250.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/)There ya go man. The one and only time Hitler tried to sway these people to his side.

So you are honestly sitting there and telling me that Hitler murdering 10 Million Jews went to church every week and practiced a faith? Get real! This is part of his relic crusade, which he used to get Christians on his side!

Are you serious? You actually believe this? Some people are more stupid than they look.

-S

[joegrundman]

here you go subman. I'm ever willing to help the only brain on sumsim to expand its knowledge

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6924/hitlerbishoplk3.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/w265.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1299/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/w250.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/)There ya go man. The one and only time Hitler tried to sway these people to his side.

So you are honestly sitting there and telling me that Hitler murdering 10 Million Jews went to church every week and practiced a faith? Get real! This is part of his relic crusade, which he used to get Christians on his side! Are you serious? You actually believe this?

-S

no you are fabricating as usual.

[SUBMAN1]

no you are fabricating as usual.I beg to differ man. You claim he was religious simply because he entered a church and talked to some bishop! Hahahahahaha! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Naive would be a good word here.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Alright. Who's next to deliver me a picture of Stalin who entered some church and who claims Stalin was religious? This is getting funny!

Anyone whacked must be religious! Atheists bible I'm sure - its in there.

-S

[fatty]

This thread has successfully gone from depressing to hilarious in only three pages.

[SUBMAN1]

This thread has successfully gone from depressing to hilarious in only three pages.Pretty much. Hitler in a church. Hahahaha! He must be religious!

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

Oh, don't ask me to find the program. You're the one who made the claim. It's a logical fallacy to pull that "You do it for me" junk.

I watched the program on Hitler's remains, and it said nothing about him being Christian. That was the same one that showed a fragment of his skull and told about the KGB burying his remains in a small box somewhere in Siberia.Point proven - He was not, nor at his death, religious.

Last, someone else claimed here first that he was not an Atheist, yet you pin it on me? So for our conversation, you are the one making the claim. And for all people who have never said they were one way or the other, Atheists must make the burden of proof since I have never seen Hitler in a church unless he just destroyed it! :D :p

You are the one that made the claim that he was religious too. By the way, what Christian could kill millions of Jews? Explain that one Einstein! :D Are we seriously having this conversation? I feel like the only one with a brain here and rightfully so.

-S

How does that prove your point? It doesn't, because it wasn't an autobiography about Hitler. It was about his remains and what happened to them.:roll:

And no, he was religious. Look at the pictures. Look at the speeches where he mentions god. The man was baptised, FFS.

[Stealth Hunter]

here you go subman. I'm ever willing to help the only brain on sumsim to expand its knowledge

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6924/hitlerbishoplk3.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/w265.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img122/hitlerbishoplk3.gif/1/)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1299/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/w250.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img207/nazihitlerchurchyh9.gif/1/)There ya go man. The one and only time Hitler tried to sway these people to his side.

So you are honestly sitting there and telling me that Hitler murdering 10 Million Jews went to church every week and practiced a faith? Get real! This is part of his relic crusade, which he used to get Christians on his side!

Are you serious? You actually believe this? Some people are more stupid than they look.

-S

Bullsh**.

A) Hitler admitted to be Roman-Catholic.
B) Hitler mentioned god in several speeches.
C) We have photographs of Hitler with religious officials of the Papacy.
D) There is NO EVIDENCE besides your claims that he was Atheist.

Use your brain. You've got one, don't you?

HERE ARE QUOTES FROM HITLER IN WHICH HE EXPRESSED HIS CATHOLICISM:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

[SUBMAN1]

How does that prove your point? It doesn't, because it wasn't an autobiography about Hitler. It was about his remains and what happened to them.:roll:

And no, he was religious. Look at the pictures. Look at the speeches where he mentions god. The man was baptised, FFS.That's the biggest friggen joke I have ever heard! Even in the off chance that he was baptized, it was part of his relic collection scheme! Crap, I can be baptised and everyone will think I'm a saint! Then I can murder 10 million people, and still pretend that i belong to the church? Is this what you are telling me? Get real! You're getting pathetic beyond normal at this point!

A) Hitler admitted to be Roman-Catholic.
B) Hitler mentioned god in several speeches.
C) We have photographs of Hitler with religious officials of the Papacy.
D) There is NO EVIDENCE besides your claims that he was Atheist.

Use your brain. You've got one, don't you?You prove again that you don't have one based on the above evidence. By the way, today I am Muslim! You must believe it for the future......!!!! Hahahahaha!

And for your amusement, here is the map prior to the first crusade. Notice where the Muslims where causing problems. What I don't get is how the Muslims have convinced us that the Catholic church started all this? Hello! Notice the slight problem with Spain, and the Holy Lands! If it didn't start here, the Muslims would have over-run Europe much like Persia did during the Greek/Spartan times!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/First.Crusade.Map.jpg

[Stealth Hunter]

OH FOR CHRIST SAKES. LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, YOU IDIOT. HE ADMITTED TO BEING CATHOLIC:

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

YOU MAKE ALL THESE CLAIMS, AND DON'T BACK THEM UP WITH A SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Where did Hitler admit to being an Atheist? Tell me. He didn't. Deal with it. Quit pulling lies out of your ***. He was a Roman-Catholic, he said he was, close advisors of the man said he was, the end.

NO EVIDENCE + CLAIMS = NO REAL ARGUMENT.

Get real sometime, kiddo.

[baggygreen]

Can we get it back on topic before the mods close a thread on a fascinating region guys??;)

[SUBMAN1]

OH FOR CHRIST SAKES. LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, YOU IDIOT. HE ADMITTED TO BEING CATHOLIC:

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

YOU MAKE ALL THESE CLAIMS, AND DON'T BACK THEM UP WITH A SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Where did Hitler admit to being an Atheist? Tell me. He didn't. Deal with it. Quit pulling lies out of your ***. He was a Roman-Catholic, he said he was, close advisors of the man said he was, the end.

NO EVIDENCE + CLAIMS = NO REAL ARGUMENT.

Get real sometime, kiddo.I admit to being muslim if it will help me take over the world!

That is the extend of you evidence.

As they say, actions speak louder than words. The evidence lays before you in millions of deaths.

I think you are a complete idiot. So now we are even.

-S

[Safe-Keeper]

I suppose that if Hitler was an atheist, then all the other people who matched or went above his evil, such as the men who enslaved all of Africa, destroyed the Aztec civilization, made significant parts of the world their empire and made slavery a deadly intercontinental industry... were atheists, too?

Is the Lord's Resistance Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army) atheistic, Trollman:roll:?

Genocide? Atheism.
Imperialism? Atheism.
Crime trends rising (which they aren't - in the US they're going down, as a quick Google search would uncover, should you dare perform one)? Atheism.
Is it raining outside? I hate atheists, I was planning a picnic.
Roads deteriorating? Atheism.
Car keys missing and toast burned? Damned atheists oughta be hung.

There's a problem with using scapegoats, Trollman... it means the real causes are not addressed. This applies to bigots of old blaming Jews, and bigots of today blaming gays and atheists. Same soup, different bowl.

D) There is NO EVIDENCE besides your claims that he was Atheist.Basically, his entire line of reasoning boils down to an Appeal to Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_personal_inc redulity) coupled beautifully with a No True Scotsman fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman).

It's as if I went into a history book with a pre-conceived notion that people with mustaches couldn't possibly do anything wrong, and then decided, when I saw Hitler's and Stalin's mustaches, that they had to be fake, because after all, people with mustaches don't do anything wrong.

Or as the textbook example goes:
Scotsman A: No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge!
Scotsman B: Harnish puts sugar on his porridge.
Scotsman A: Blimey, Harnish is not a true Scotsman! He's been pretending all along!

OH FOR CHRIST SAKES. LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, YOU IDIOT. HE ADMITTED TO BEING CATHOLIC:And need I remind Trollman that not only did he state his religious views - but that he also did so in private writings, which were not privy to public access? So much for the 'playing Christian for the masses' angle.

Not that it matters. You could produce pictures of Hitler kissing a copy of The God Delusion and it woudn't matter, 'cause as you've already admitted by forfeit, you'd still have to prove that Hitler's atheism started WWII, rather than being just a coincidence.

[SUBMAN1]

I suppose that if Hitler was an atheist, then all the other people who matched or went above his evil, such as the men who enslaved all of Africa, destroyed the Aztec civilization, made significant parts of the world their empire and made slavery a deadly intercontinental industry... were atheists, too?

Is the Lord's Resistance Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army) atheistic, Trollman:roll:?

Genocide? Atheism.
Imperialism? Atheism.
Crime trends rising (which they aren't - in the US they're going down, as a quick Google search would uncover, should you dare perform one)? Atheism.
Is it raining outside? I hate atheists, I was planning a picnic.
Roads deteriorating? Atheism.
Car keys missing and toast burned? Damned atheists oughta be hung.

There's a problem with using scapegoats, Trollman... it means the real causes are not addressed. This applies to bigots of old blaming Jews, and bigots of today blaming gays and atheists. Same soup, different bowl.

D) There is NO EVIDENCE besides your claims that he was Atheist.Basically, his entire line of reasoning boils down to an Appeal to Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_personal_inc redulity) coupled beautifully with a No True Scotsman fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman).

It's as if I went into a history book with a pre-conceived notion that people with mustaches couldn't possibly do anything wrong, and then decided, when I saw Hitler's and Stalin's mustaches, that they had to be fake, because after all, people with mustaches don't do anything wrong.

Or as the textbook example goes:
Scotsman A: No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge!
Scotsman B: Harnish puts sugar on his porridge.
Scotsman A: Blimey, Harnish is not a true Scotsman! He's been pretending all along!

OH FOR CHRIST SAKES. LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, YOU IDIOT. HE ADMITTED TO BEING CATHOLIC:And need I remind Trollman that not only did he state his religious views - but that he also did so in private writings, which were not privy to public access? So much for the 'playing Christian for the masses' angle.

Not that it matters. You could produce pictures of Hitler kissing a copy of The God Delusion and it woudn't matter, 'cause as you've already admitted by forfeit, you'd still have to prove that Hitler's atheism started WWII, rather than being just a coincidence.
Your fellow Subsimmers have said it better than I can answer this question already, but since you must beat a dead horse, here is number one that i present:


More correctly put, how ludicrous some people who profess to be Christians are. Christianity, in and of itself, has never killed anyone. Only intolerant human beings have killed in the name of Christianity.
-S

PS. I could never compete with you on the Troll level either. Sorry I disappoint you there. I only defend.

[Stealth Hunter]

That's the biggest friggen joke I have ever heard! Even in the off chance that he was baptized, it was part of his relic collection scheme! Crap, I can be baptised and everyone will think I'm a saint! Then I can murder 10 million people, and still pretend that i belong to the church? Is this what you are telling me? Get real! You're getting pathetic beyond normal at this point!


LOL, that's a great conspiracy there, but has it got any evidence? I gave you evidence that Hitler was Roman-Catholic and practiced Christianity. You have not presented a bit of evidence that he was Atheist. Blabber on more, will you. You're amusing me.

You prove again that you don't have one based on the above evidence.

Start reading:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Hitlersfaith.html

You prove again that you don't have one based on the above evidence. By the way, today I am Muslim! You must believe it for the future......!!!! Hahahahaha!

And for your amusement, here is the map prior to the first crusade. Notice where the Muslims where causing problems. What I don't get is how the Muslims have convinced us that the Catholic church started all this? Hello! Notice the slight problem with Spain, and the Holy Lands! If it didn't start here, the Muslims would have over-run Europe much like Persia did during the Greek/Spartan times!


A) The Seljuk Turks spread their religion North into the Byzantine Empire. The Orthodox Christian Byzantines starting killing Imams, and the Seljuks attacked.

B) The Catholic Church declared the First Crusade to indeed be a crusade. So they did start it.

C) And the Christians would have overrun the Middle-East. Be a bit more a one-sided bigot why don't you.

[Safe-Keeper]

Can we get it back on topic before the mods close a thread on a fascinating region guys??;)Indeed, let us (shuts and locks door in Trollman's face and tries to overhear his raving from the other side).

India and Pakistan are a sad case, 's far as I get it. Don't know much about the region, so I can't really elaborate. I'm hoping others can.

[August]

Name one war started by atheists?
WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...
Where did you hear that drivel? Hitler was a Roman-Catholic and Stalin was a Deist. Mussolini was an Atheist, though (or so he said; he was very anti-Catholic, that's for sure; he might have been trying to oppose the Vatican's power in this way; who knows).

Here's a few snaps of Hitler's beliefs:

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Hitlersfaith.html

Stalin wrote himself that he rejected the idea of a Christian god or Jesus' existance. He did, however, believe there might be a god. He called himself a Deist, but I'd be edging more towards Agnostic for him.
So in other words you agree with me on one, come close to the same definition for another (agnostic/atheist) and use some biased website (CatholicArrogance.org) as proof against the third? :roll: Are you disagreeing with me out of habit or do you really believe what you just wrote?

The truth is that Hitler was no more a Roman Catholic than you are a Muslim.

From your own link:

"In early 1933, Hitler vowed secretly to completely eradicate Christianity from Germany. 'You are either a Christian or a German, you cannot be both.' But Hitler was smart enough to know that in a nation as Christian as Germany, the public and the churches must never know his true fellings and beliefs."

Those Sir, are not the actions of a Christian. They are the actions of a godless man using a religion to advance his own purposes. Same thing with Stalin and same thing with Mussolini so my original point stands.

[Stealth Hunter]

I suppose that if Hitler was an atheist, then all the other people who matched or went above his evil, such as the men who enslaved all of Africa, destroyed the Aztec civilization, made significant parts of the world their empire and made slavery a deadly intercontinental industry... were atheists, too?

Is the Lord's Resistance Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army) atheistic, Trollman:roll:?

Genocide? Atheism.
Imperialism? Atheism.
Crime trends rising (which they aren't - in the US they're going down, as a quick Google search would uncover, should you dare perform one)? Atheism.
Is it raining outside? I hate atheists, I was planning a picnic.
Roads deteriorating? Atheism.
Car keys missing and toast burned? Damned atheists oughta be hung.

There's a problem with using scapegoats, Trollman... it means the real causes are not addressed. This applies to bigots of old blaming Jews, and bigots of today blaming gays and atheists. Same soup, different bowl.

D) There is NO EVIDENCE besides your claims that he was Atheist.Basically, his entire line of reasoning boils down to an Appeal to Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_personal_inc redulity) coupled beautifully with a No True Scotsman fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman).

It's as if I went into a history book with a pre-conceived notion that people with mustaches couldn't possibly do anything wrong, and then decided, when I saw Hitler's and Stalin's mustaches, that they had to be fake, because after all, people with mustaches don't do anything wrong.

Or as the textbook example goes:
Scotsman A: No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge!
Scotsman B: Harnish puts sugar on his porridge.
Scotsman A: Blimey, Harnish is not a true Scotsman! He's been pretending all along!

OH FOR CHRIST SAKES. LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, YOU IDIOT. HE ADMITTED TO BEING CATHOLIC:And need I remind Trollman that not only did he state his religious views - but that he also did so in private writings, which were not privy to public access? So much for the 'playing Christian for the masses' angle.

Not that it matters. You could produce pictures of Hitler kissing a copy of The God Delusion and it woudn't matter, 'cause as you've already admitted by forfeit, you'd still have to prove that Hitler's atheism started WWII, rather than being just a coincidence.

Yet you're ignoring the entire fallacy of SUBMAN's argument to begin with: Atheists are evil and cause nothing but problems.

Oh, and there really isn't evidence that shows Hitler was Atheist. There really isn't. Thanks for playing, though.

:roll:

[SUBMAN1]

Yet you're ignoring the entire fallacy of SUBMAN's argument to begin with: Atheists are evil and cause nothing but problems.

:roll:Hardly, though it is likely due to their eventually degradation into self fulfillment.

See August's posts above for the rest of your answers. Hahahaha! :p

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

Name one war started by atheists?
WW2. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini all atheists...
Where did you hear that drivel? Hitler was a Roman-Catholic and Stalin was a Deist. Mussolini was an Atheist, though (or so he said; he was very anti-Catholic, that's for sure; he might have been trying to oppose the Vatican's power in this way; who knows).

Here's a few snaps of Hitler's beliefs:

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Hitlersfaith.html

Stalin wrote himself that he rejected the idea of a Christian god or Jesus' existance. He did, however, believe there might be a god. He called himself a Deist, but I'd be edging more towards Agnostic for him.
So in other words you agree with me on one, come close to the same definition for another (agnostic/atheist) and use some biased website (CatholicArrogance.org) as proof against the third? :roll: Are you disagreeing with me out of habit or do you really believe what you just wrote?

The truth is that Hitler was no more a Roman Catholic than you are a Muslim.

From your own link:

"In early 1933, Hitler vowed secretly to completely eradicate Christianity from Germany. 'You are either a Christian or a German, you cannot be both.' But Hitler was smart enough to know that in a nation as Christian as Germany, the public and the churches must never know his true fellings and beliefs."

Those Sir, are not the actions of a Christian. They are the actions of a godless man using a religion to advance his own purposes. Same thing with Stalin and same thing with Mussolini so my original point stands.

Also from that same source:

"Hitler did well in monastery school. He sang in the choir, found High Mass and other ceremonies intoxicating, and idolized priests. Impressed by their power, he at one time considered entering the priesthood."

So Hitler had these plans from childhood?:hmm: :roll:

I suggest you also read this (by James Murphy):

In George Orwell's 1984, it was stated, "Who controls the past controls neutralityture, who controls the present controls the past." Who is going to control the present-fundamentalism or freedom? History is being distorted by many preachers and politicians. They are heard on the airwaves condemning atheists and routinely claim Adolf Hitler was one.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political institution as an infant in Austria. He became a communicant and an altar boy in his youth and was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" in at his mother’s wish on Whit Sunday 1904 at the Cathedral at Linz. Hitler still went to confession and communion in 1918. (from http://yearegods.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/was-hitler-a-christian/ ) He himself wrote of that period of his life : "I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal". [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 1]
[ The most extensive article I have seen on Hitler's youth is http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/boyhood.htm.]

Its worst doctrines never left him. He was steeped in its liturgy, which contained the words "perfidious Jew." This hateful statement was not removed until 1961. "Perfidy" means treachery. In his day, hatred of Jews was the norm. In great measure it was sponsored by two major religions of Germany, Catholicism and Lutheranism.

He greatly admired Martin Luther, who openly hated the Jews. Luther condemned the Catholic Church for its pretensions and corruption, but he supported the centuries of papal pogroms against the Jews. Luther said, "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them." "Ungodly wretches" he called the Jews in his book, Table Talk.

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, " . . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938. Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never appeared on the index of Forbidden Books. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain, and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of these countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer John Toland explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite the detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jews was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god . . . "

Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the Vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real (99%) Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.

Hitler, like some of the today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." He liked corporal punishment in home and school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany, he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it."

[Stealth Hunter]

Yet you're ignoring the entire fallacy of SUBMAN's argument to begin with: Atheists are evil and cause nothing but problems.

:roll:Hardly, though it is likely due to their eventually degradation into self fulfillment.

See August's posts above for the rest of your answers. Hahahaha! :p

-S

So we all degrade into nothing but self fulfillment? How stereotypical of you. That could fit under an Inductive Argument.

[Stealth Hunter]

Can we get it back on topic before the mods close a thread on a fascinating region guys??;)Indeed, let us (shuts and locks door in Trollman's face and tries to overhear his raving from the other side).

India and Pakistan are a sad case, 's far as I get it. Don't know much about the region, so I can't really elaborate. I'm hoping others can.

Trollman?:rotfl:

That's a great one.:-?

[baggygreen]

Can we get it back on topic before the mods close a thread on a fascinating region guys??;)India and Pakistan are a sad case, 's far as I get it. Don't know much about the region, so I can't really elaborate. I'm hoping others can.From what I understand of the region, Pakistan was initially a part of India. Now I can't remember if it was decided that it was best to create Pakistan or if it came about through secession, but essentially Pakistan was created as a Muslim state, a homeland for the Muslims who had been previously living in a Hindu-dominated land.

Obviously these 2 haven't gotten along all the well ever since, and besides the obvious problem of ownership over the Kashmir region I simply can't remember at the moment what else they've fought over. (I know that fought over Bangladesh when it was created, but I cant remember why).

What makes the sub-continent so interesting is despite the hodgepodge of religions, in general they've gotten along fairly well with each other. Sure, from time to time theres been the odd case of persecution, but as a general rule its been remarkably peaceful.

[Stealth Hunter]

Pakistan was indeed part of India. During the '40s, when separation took place, the Muslims and Hindus fought fiercely between one another. Gandhi tried to settle the fighting, actually, when it was occurring. Britain's loss of rule over the country and the newborn independence of India caused much chaos and unrest in the country.

[SUBMAN1]

So we all degrade into nothing but self fulfillment? How stereotypical of you. That would fit under an Inductive Fallacy.So how was your local trip to your homeless shelter to help out those in need? Oh, let me guess, you were too busy with your own life! I've yet to meet an Atheist that helps out. I guess according to you, I've just been lucky.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Sorry about pushing the nails in today. Hopefully some good will come out of it.

Done with this finger pointing.

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

I donate to the ASPCA, I give clothes and things I find or don't need anymore away to the Salvation Army, and I regularly help out in the community during our homecomings and holiday celebrations.

I guess I'm an EXTREMELY self-centered bastard for doing that. And taking little Zero in was an evil thing for me to do. Oh yes. I took the little guy in and fed him and nursed him back to health. I was also extremely greedy for spending $800 on him at the vet's office. Oh yes. What a horrible human I am.:roll:

After the sh** I've been through, Sub, be glad I'm a happy person. I choose what I want to do when I want to do it. And now, I'm choosing to end this conversation.

[SUBMAN1]

I donate to the ASPCA, I give clothes and things I find or don't need anymore away to the Salvation Army, and I regularly help out in the community during our homecomings and holiday celebrations.

I guess I'm an EXTREMELY self-centered bastard for doing that. And taking little Zero in was an evil thing for me to do. Oh yes. I took the little guy in and fed him and nursed him back to health. I was also extremely greedy for spending $800 on him at the vet's office. Oh yes. What a horrible human I am.:roll:

After the sh** I've been through, Sub, be glad I'm a happy person. I choose what I want to do when I want to do it. And now, I'm choosing to end this conversation.$800 could have fed and educated a child in a impoverished nation for well over 3 years (almost 4). Hopefully you make better choices in the future since these things (though not bad) seem pretty low in the scheme of things. The only thing you really did is get rid of old junk to a place that would take it off your hands vs you having to go to the dump (And pay $17), and pay some crazy paycheck to a over priced vet, and the ASPCA - who does little for mankind.

Done with this conversation.

-S

[August]

So Hitler had these plans from childhood?:hmm: :roll:

So what? Correct me if i'm wrong SH but you were born a Muslim, no? Does that accident of birth or your family's plans for you automatically make you a believer, A "Mohammedean" as Skybird would put it, regardless of what your own heart and head tells you? Of course not, and nor should it. To be religious is to believe in a higher being, it's not just a membership card in a social organization.

Regardless of childhood fascinations with trappings and ceremony or later adult pandering to the church, the simple fact is that Hitler did not believe in the god of the religion he was born into. Your own website says plotted the betrayal and destruction of the same religion that you are arguing he was a believer of.

Now I know you hate religion and i certainly do not question either your motives or your "belief" (NPI) in your cause, but does that hate reach the point of denying such an obvious truth?, because that is the argument i see you making here.

Edit: fixed a missing quote tag.

[Skybird]

Actually, no. The First Crusade which sparked the others was caused by the Christians. They decided that they couldn't allow the blasphemy of Muslims to reach the ears of their people. Imams traveled the Europeans lands (came close to their borders, anyway), and preached the Quran. Intolerance is all it was.

You are kidding us, yes? the spreading military drive of Islam and the taking of the former Judaic-Christian province of Judea of course had nothing to do with it, as had the military threatening to the North-West and Konstantinopel nothing to do with it as well.

Poor Islam, just suffered from the intolerance of those evil European stupid Christians. what do we learn from your version of history? IOf Islam expands aggressoiveoly, that is okay, and when others try to resist and defend against that expansion and try to take back what had been lost with the same aggressiveness, then it is not okay. islam may do, what others are not allowed to do.

Who had conquered the greater territories and occupied them for longer time: The Christians in the former Roman Christian provinces, or Islam in Southern, South-western, south-Eastern and Central Europe, and the roman provinces in northern Africa and the Middle East?

The typical double-.standards that you find so very often in islam, and the Quaran. On one page there is the candy and the honey, and some pages later the loud-sounding "BUT...!" gets explained that take the former sweet words back or put them into relations that chnage their meaning completely, and candy and honey suddenly turn into salt and vinegar. The first, the seeties, is given to declare any defense against Islam as injustice, and the second, the salty stuff, is used to press islamic agendas by force, declaring resistance to it illegal by the first.

Two tongues in Muhammad's mouth. At Medina he talked of peace and seize-fire - and one day later commited genocide against those whom he promised both. The only reason for that was that his narcissistic ego felt offended that their scholars were brighter and better educated than himself.

[Skybird]

This thread has successfully gone from depressing to hilarious in only three pages.
I told you guys to leave it alone. If everybody would have sticked to that, neither me nor anyone else here would be engaged in it.

I wonder when Neal finally will ban these things. Like the market's invisible hand does not regulate itself for the better as we have just seen, forums issues do not solve themselves by just laissez-faire. Please, Neal - haven't you still not seen enough threads degenerating in the very same way? "No religion debates on subsim GT forum." - and we are done, happy, and peaceful. I think pedagogics can be exaggerated, I mean. and there would still be enough inflamatory stuff left for discussion: Dems vs Reps, politics, climate issues, the UN, the EU, Afghanistan...

Let's spank Konovalov - he started it all! :lol:

[August]

Banning topics because certain people wish that a major facet of the human experience would just go away is silly.

All one has to do to avoid such threads is to refrain from clicking on them.

[kurtz]

just to drag this back on topic;

India and Pakistan didn't really exist as political entities before the 'British raj' which united a set of seprate and sometimes disparate princedoms into one country, India.

After the second world war the British gave in to demands for autonomy and that is where the muslim parts of Bangladesh and Pakistan secceded from India. In effect this is like the czech/balkans area which was held together then when the controlling power collapsed breaking up in an more or less acrimonius way.

[Safe-Keeper]

I wonder when Neal finally will ban these things. Like the market's invisible hand does not regulate itself for the better as we have just seen, forums issues do not solve themselves by just laissez-faire. Please, Neal - haven't you still not seen enough threads degenerating in the very same way? "No religion debates on subsim GT forum." - and we are done, happy, and peaceful. I think pedagogics can be exaggerated, I mean. and there would still be enough inflamatory stuff left for discussion: Dems vs Reps, politics, climate issues, the UN, the EU, Afghanistan...Seconded.

$800 could have fed and educated a child in a impoverished nation for well over 3 years (almost 4). Hopefully you make better choices in the future since these things (though not bad) seem pretty low in the scheme of things. The only thing you really did is get rid of old junk to a place that would take it off your hands vs you having to go to the dump (And pay $17), and pay some crazy paycheck to a over priced vet, and the ASPCA - who does little for mankind.I sincerely thank you. Your post has made my certainty that you're a troll go from 90% to 100%. I apologize to my fellow Subsimmers for feeding this pathetic attention-seeker, but take some comfort in that the outrageous posts presented, troll nature taken into consideration, were most likely not the real thoughts of the poster.

[Onkel Neal]

Currently it is off-limits to discuss software piracy, use vulgar language, and engage in direct insults and personal attacks on this forum. I really struggle with the idea of banning certain topics from discussion here. First, what gives me the right? I really believe in free speech. However, we do limit spamming the forum with the same topic in numerous threads. Second, would banning this topic help? People would still post about news that involves religon, and then the moderators would have to close the topic.

One thing that I notice, the "anti-religous" people are usually as zealous and passionate as the religous people. They have their beliefs, and they see that as the true and proper way to think. That's fine, as long as they realize that we all are entitled to our beliefs and we have to try to respect them. When you read something you diagree with, try to use a little tact. It's good for you to develop this habit; someday you may need it :cool:

As I said, I believe in free speech. I also believe in personal responsibility. When you read a post and you find yourself in violent disagreement, think of this as an opportunity to exercise your patience, and tolerance. Or, are we hot-headed, knee-jerk smart-mouths? Ha! Listen to me preach, you say. :roll: I found myself in that situation a few weeks ago, I know how it feels. But honestly, it helps me to be exposed to different opinions and learn how to handle it without being a jerk. Different opinions are the reality we live in. Finding a way to get along is necessary.

Neal

[Frame57]

Hitler held a distain for the Catholic Church. He was a disciple of George Von Schonerer. Hitler had framed the following motto above his bed. "Ohne Juda, ohne Rom, wird gebaut Germaniens Dom. Heil!" Which means. We will build Germania's cathedral without Jews and without Rome. In fact what Hitler became was a social Darwinist. He rejected Christian morality, tolerance and humanitarian progress all of which in his mind favored the weak and was therefore counterselective. He may have had to played the people with a false exterior with regards to the Catholic church, but he was something quite different on the inside.

Ref. Hitler by Joachim C. Fest

[Frame57]

This thread has successfully gone from depressing to hilarious in only three pages.
I told you guys to leave it alone. If everybody would have sticked to that, neither me nor anyone else here would be engaged in it.

I wonder when Neal finally will ban these things. Like the market's invisible hand does not regulate itself for the better as we have just seen, forums issues do not solve themselves by just laissez-faire. Please, Neal - haven't you still not seen enough threads degenerating in the very same way? "No religion debates on subsim GT forum." - and we are done, happy, and peaceful. I think pedagogics can be exaggerated, I mean. and there would still be enough inflamatory stuff left for discussion: Dems vs Reps, politics, climate issues, the UN, the EU, Afghanistan...

Let's spank Konovalov - he started it all! :lol:The problem here is that people do not respect culture. We have a motto here in the states called, "In God we trust...It is ingrained in our heritage. As you have just stated to embrace other inflammitory subjects just proves this point. It will be a sad day if you alone are cowtowed to.

[Konovalov]

My point of this thread was to voice my despair at the occassional stupidity of all humanity as evidenced in my comment below.

We really can be cruel to each other over the most stupid of things. :down:

I didn't post here to apportion blame to any one religion, non-religion, or race. Please lets not turn this into a "which religion/non-religion has killed more people" kind of thing. Pretty please? :)
Obviously not many people paid much attention to my earlier request with this thread and the pages three through to five are evidence of that. I cannot believe what has transpired in such a short period of time (24 hours). :damn:

In hindsight I should have framed the topic of discussion better. I would fully accept that as criticism of me. And possibly because of this failing on my part people on all sides have used this as a jumping off point to launch attacks on religion in general, Christians, Muslims and Islam, and Atheists. Did I miss any group? In the topic that I started, Islam and Muslims had absolutely nothing to do with the event and news article linked to. Nor was there any mention or reference to athesists. This just proves that a few people are willing to inject their own agenda into a thread come hell or high water.

But while I am quite prepared to accept some responsibilty for poorly framing the topic of discussion all members should excert some form of self control not to mention personal responsibility for what you write here.

So is there any chance of discussing the complex and tense state of affairs in India between Hindu nationalists and fellow citizens whose only difference is that they are Christian? :)

Edit: Just noticed the post from Neal above. Fully agree on the freedom of speech thing. In fact I agree with the whole post. Listen to the boss boys. :yep:

[Frame57]

I apologize to you. I was just interjecting some reply that came up about Hitler. Not sure how that came up really. Moot point anyway. But to answer your question. It would be no. Because some people here do not even want a remote context of religion even mentioned and will keep begging neal to ban such topics. To me anyones religion is a cultural thing, but has an impact on society and should be discussed if appropriate. It has bearing and hiding from such topics gains nothing. Am example of this, is the Jihad mindset. Or any other mindset that wages war with a religious overtone. This explains motivation to me and helps one understand how and why people do the things they do.