Marcantilan
10-03-08, 12:29 PM
I posted this one in another forum, but I think it will be interesting too for the Subsim crowd.
Is an english abstract of an article published days ago in an Argentine defense magazine (well, I authored it too...).
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/308/b2ns4.jpg
POSSUB! Antisubmarine Operations on May 5, 1982
http://www.nuestromar.org/Efemerides/imagenes/mayo1.jpg
A paint about the attack. It´s not only an artistic impression, but the Tracker Commander (Lt. Fortini) briefed extensively the artist about it. The smoke markers were released in every positive MAD.
SUBMERGED CONTACT.
Contact, 10 miles out!
May 5, 1982. A Tracker antisubmarine plane from the Argentine light carrier “ARA 25 de Mayo” (or POMA, after her administrative designation in the Argentine Navy) was ordered to search an area near the mainland, looking for the patrol boat “ARA Alferez Sobral”, which was attacked earlier by British helicopters.
The plane (Lt. Carlos Cal at the controls – one of the best ASW commanders of the squadron) soon detected, by radar and latter visual, a small periscope or snorkel over the surface. Lt. Cal dropped then an Mk 44 and a sonobuoy.
However, he could not track the torpedo run: the plane, because was configured for surface search, had not a sonobuoy receptor.
Alerted by the attack, another Tracker and two Sea Kings from the carrier were ordered to take off and rush to search and destroy the intruder.
Arrived at the area, the new Tracker (Lt. Fortini) and one of the Sea King (the other had sonar problems) located and tracked (passively) a subsurface contact.
It is worth to mention the Tracker acustic operator heard mechanical sounds coming from three JEZEBEL (LOFAR) sonobuoys, and confirmed the source by nine MAD contacts. In addition, the Sea King helicopter heard the contact by its dipping sonar.
After the helicopter confirmed the target, it guided the Tracker to a certain point, and then Lt. Fortini dropped a new Mk 44 over it. He saw the torpedo entering the water and he heard the torpedo duplicating its ping and it speeding (a sign of the torpedo acquiring a submerged target).
But none happened then.
After the attack, they lost contact with the POSSUB. In addition, it could not be regained.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9727/mapadetallesataquejn4.jpg
MAy 5 ops: Water depth: 70 meters (first contact) to 95 meters (last contact & attack) Too shallow to use the active buoys in argentine navy´s service.)
Possible submarine.
After the attack, the contact was classified as a POSSUB – Confidence 2 / 3.
In the Argentine Navy (as in other western navies), contacts are classified as:
CERTSUB - (certain submarine) A contact has been sighted and positively identified as a submarine.
PROBSUB (probable submarine) A contact that displays strong evidence of being a submarine. This classification is normally based on the information gathered by either sonar or radar. The official in charge gives a confidence level, from 1 (the lowest) to 4 (the highest)
POSSUB The classification (possible submarine) is given to a contact on which available information indicates the likely presence of a submarine, however there is insufficient evidence to justify a higher classification. POSSUB is always followed by an assessment of the confidence level. In addition, confidence levels are established.
NONSUB This condition is indicated when a visual sighting or the sound/radar evaluation is satisfied that the contact is NOT a submarine.
In fact, the contact was plotted and the crews sure heard something, but anti submarine warfare is always a tricky business.
Certainly, a big problem in any ASW operation is ascertaining the true identity of a given underwater contact. It generally requires extended tracking on multiple sensors to determine whether or not a sonar contact is a submarine or some other underwater phenomenon.
The period during classification can be extraordinarily tense for the ship or submarine concerned during peacetime exercises, and in war, the tension heightens and frequently elicits a higher false contact rate
AN ANALYSIS 25 YEARS FROM THE CONFLICT.
Something about the contact.
It is interesting to ask, more than 25 years from the conflict, if the attacked contact was really a submarine or it was a biological, etc, phenomenon.
Certainly, the contact behaved like a submarine.
It had an average speed of 11,5 knots (being 7 knots the normal speed of a whale) and it moved from shallower waters to deeper ones.
In addition, the crew of the second Tracker (Lt. Fortini´s) heard the duplication of the active sonar from the Mk.44: being the sea bottom there plain and sandy, it is sure the torpedo located something…
But, she was a British submarine?
British submarines in the war.
Six British submarines took part on the war. Five nuclear: HMS Conqueror, HMS Splendid, HMS Spartan, HMS Courageous y HMS Valiant, and a conventional one: HMS Onyx.
However, just three of them: HMS Conqueror, Splendid and Spartan were near the area of attack on May 5. The others were on transit from the UK to the islands.
Therefore, the answer of the question lies on the three above mentioned subs.
Known or suspected positions of submarines HMS Conqueror, HMS Spartan and HMS on May 5, 1982.
Of course, it is still a guarded secret the exact positions of the three British subs in the morning of May 5.
However, searching unclassified sources, the locations can be fairly guessed.
In the first place, HMS Conqueror, and after she have been attacked the ARA General Belgrano, was patrolling, on May 4, near Isla de los Estados, 720 nm south of the position here Lt. Cal attacked the contact.
Moreover, her logbook shows she was intended to keep patrolling there by May 5.
HMS Spartan, by the other hand, was near the Task Force, north off the Islands and far from the mainland. She could not move from her patrol area, even the Task Force Commander Adm. Woodward could not order that.
But the assigned patrol area for HMS Splendid was near the mainland.
In fact, 24 hours before Lt. Cal’s contact, she was 212 miles south of the position, steaming north and trailing three argentine warships She had to move at an average speed of 8,3 knots (ideal for littoral warfare) to meet the Trackers.
British sources denied HMS Splendid being the attacked sub, but discarding the other options, she is the main suspect.
The HMS Onyx.
Argentine forces often claimed (because she suffered damage from- British sources said- an unchartered rock) HMS Onyx was the attacked submarine.
But she was not at the area of ops on May 5.
Moreover, she completed her patrol without serious problems. Even she sank the LSL Sir Galahad as a war tomb on June 21.
Lastly, the known damage on the boat was on the bow, and not in the sail or upper hull, the most likely point of impact of an aerial torpedo like the Mk-44.
Therefore, it is not likely was HMS Onyx the submarine attacked on May 5.
AS A CONCLUSSION.
It is possible the Argentine Navy attacked a submarine on May 5. If the contact was a British submarine, the most likely candidate is HMS Splendid, because her position and course before the engagement.
At the end, is important to summarize that after all, the carrier remained untouched all over the war.
So, being a submarine the contact attacked (or not), the mission was still a success. In ASW business sinking and enemy is as important to avoid a sinking from your own.
Is an english abstract of an article published days ago in an Argentine defense magazine (well, I authored it too...).
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/308/b2ns4.jpg
POSSUB! Antisubmarine Operations on May 5, 1982
http://www.nuestromar.org/Efemerides/imagenes/mayo1.jpg
A paint about the attack. It´s not only an artistic impression, but the Tracker Commander (Lt. Fortini) briefed extensively the artist about it. The smoke markers were released in every positive MAD.
SUBMERGED CONTACT.
Contact, 10 miles out!
May 5, 1982. A Tracker antisubmarine plane from the Argentine light carrier “ARA 25 de Mayo” (or POMA, after her administrative designation in the Argentine Navy) was ordered to search an area near the mainland, looking for the patrol boat “ARA Alferez Sobral”, which was attacked earlier by British helicopters.
The plane (Lt. Carlos Cal at the controls – one of the best ASW commanders of the squadron) soon detected, by radar and latter visual, a small periscope or snorkel over the surface. Lt. Cal dropped then an Mk 44 and a sonobuoy.
However, he could not track the torpedo run: the plane, because was configured for surface search, had not a sonobuoy receptor.
Alerted by the attack, another Tracker and two Sea Kings from the carrier were ordered to take off and rush to search and destroy the intruder.
Arrived at the area, the new Tracker (Lt. Fortini) and one of the Sea King (the other had sonar problems) located and tracked (passively) a subsurface contact.
It is worth to mention the Tracker acustic operator heard mechanical sounds coming from three JEZEBEL (LOFAR) sonobuoys, and confirmed the source by nine MAD contacts. In addition, the Sea King helicopter heard the contact by its dipping sonar.
After the helicopter confirmed the target, it guided the Tracker to a certain point, and then Lt. Fortini dropped a new Mk 44 over it. He saw the torpedo entering the water and he heard the torpedo duplicating its ping and it speeding (a sign of the torpedo acquiring a submerged target).
But none happened then.
After the attack, they lost contact with the POSSUB. In addition, it could not be regained.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9727/mapadetallesataquejn4.jpg
MAy 5 ops: Water depth: 70 meters (first contact) to 95 meters (last contact & attack) Too shallow to use the active buoys in argentine navy´s service.)
Possible submarine.
After the attack, the contact was classified as a POSSUB – Confidence 2 / 3.
In the Argentine Navy (as in other western navies), contacts are classified as:
CERTSUB - (certain submarine) A contact has been sighted and positively identified as a submarine.
PROBSUB (probable submarine) A contact that displays strong evidence of being a submarine. This classification is normally based on the information gathered by either sonar or radar. The official in charge gives a confidence level, from 1 (the lowest) to 4 (the highest)
POSSUB The classification (possible submarine) is given to a contact on which available information indicates the likely presence of a submarine, however there is insufficient evidence to justify a higher classification. POSSUB is always followed by an assessment of the confidence level. In addition, confidence levels are established.
NONSUB This condition is indicated when a visual sighting or the sound/radar evaluation is satisfied that the contact is NOT a submarine.
In fact, the contact was plotted and the crews sure heard something, but anti submarine warfare is always a tricky business.
Certainly, a big problem in any ASW operation is ascertaining the true identity of a given underwater contact. It generally requires extended tracking on multiple sensors to determine whether or not a sonar contact is a submarine or some other underwater phenomenon.
The period during classification can be extraordinarily tense for the ship or submarine concerned during peacetime exercises, and in war, the tension heightens and frequently elicits a higher false contact rate
AN ANALYSIS 25 YEARS FROM THE CONFLICT.
Something about the contact.
It is interesting to ask, more than 25 years from the conflict, if the attacked contact was really a submarine or it was a biological, etc, phenomenon.
Certainly, the contact behaved like a submarine.
It had an average speed of 11,5 knots (being 7 knots the normal speed of a whale) and it moved from shallower waters to deeper ones.
In addition, the crew of the second Tracker (Lt. Fortini´s) heard the duplication of the active sonar from the Mk.44: being the sea bottom there plain and sandy, it is sure the torpedo located something…
But, she was a British submarine?
British submarines in the war.
Six British submarines took part on the war. Five nuclear: HMS Conqueror, HMS Splendid, HMS Spartan, HMS Courageous y HMS Valiant, and a conventional one: HMS Onyx.
However, just three of them: HMS Conqueror, Splendid and Spartan were near the area of attack on May 5. The others were on transit from the UK to the islands.
Therefore, the answer of the question lies on the three above mentioned subs.
Known or suspected positions of submarines HMS Conqueror, HMS Spartan and HMS on May 5, 1982.
Of course, it is still a guarded secret the exact positions of the three British subs in the morning of May 5.
However, searching unclassified sources, the locations can be fairly guessed.
In the first place, HMS Conqueror, and after she have been attacked the ARA General Belgrano, was patrolling, on May 4, near Isla de los Estados, 720 nm south of the position here Lt. Cal attacked the contact.
Moreover, her logbook shows she was intended to keep patrolling there by May 5.
HMS Spartan, by the other hand, was near the Task Force, north off the Islands and far from the mainland. She could not move from her patrol area, even the Task Force Commander Adm. Woodward could not order that.
But the assigned patrol area for HMS Splendid was near the mainland.
In fact, 24 hours before Lt. Cal’s contact, she was 212 miles south of the position, steaming north and trailing three argentine warships She had to move at an average speed of 8,3 knots (ideal for littoral warfare) to meet the Trackers.
British sources denied HMS Splendid being the attacked sub, but discarding the other options, she is the main suspect.
The HMS Onyx.
Argentine forces often claimed (because she suffered damage from- British sources said- an unchartered rock) HMS Onyx was the attacked submarine.
But she was not at the area of ops on May 5.
Moreover, she completed her patrol without serious problems. Even she sank the LSL Sir Galahad as a war tomb on June 21.
Lastly, the known damage on the boat was on the bow, and not in the sail or upper hull, the most likely point of impact of an aerial torpedo like the Mk-44.
Therefore, it is not likely was HMS Onyx the submarine attacked on May 5.
AS A CONCLUSSION.
It is possible the Argentine Navy attacked a submarine on May 5. If the contact was a British submarine, the most likely candidate is HMS Splendid, because her position and course before the engagement.
At the end, is important to summarize that after all, the carrier remained untouched all over the war.
So, being a submarine the contact attacked (or not), the mission was still a success. In ASW business sinking and enemy is as important to avoid a sinking from your own.