manual targeting problem

[I'm goin' down]

I am attempting manual targeting (gulp!). I set up the position keeper and open the device on the right side of the screen, measure the mast and send the information to the TDC. I do the same of the AOB. How do I measure verify distance to the target? Is that calculated by the postion keeper after I have locked the periscope on the target? When I have fired torpedos the intersection point is closer than the ships location per the attack radar. I have missed all of the, but not by much. And for speed I assume you calculate it using the 3 minute rule or you estimate it based upon the specs. of the target vessel. (At least I am not facing the wrong way.)

I am practicing on the cruiser in the submarine school, and if can't hit it I'm goin' down (where have I heard that name?) when I face the enemy. I admit my firing angle has not been good, and has not been at a 90 degrees to the target. In fact, the angle has not been close to 90 degrees. Is that the problem?

Also there are two lines on the attack radar. Does the enemy have to be between those lines when the torpedo is fired or makes its turn?

I am playing at 15 percent realism and mark the torpedos for impact and contact.

[joegrundman]

Using the PK is not so hard, but a good idea is to try and visualise the AOB, by mentally converting the flat screen image into a 3D mental image

OK, here's how I will do it

As soon as the target is within 9000yds set your first PK estimates. If you use radar to get your range, then it's easy. Just put in the range you estimate (there is a mod that lets you freespin the range wheel to set the range of your choosing - this is helpful for when the stadimeter is not the ideal tool), the AOB that you estimate, and then enter an estimated speed. If you have sonar reporting speed, this will help you. Turn on the PK

Now downscope or whatever you want to do next. Go and work out it's course according to the AOB info (this is easy as you can simply read it's computed course on the PK)

Set up a general intercept route (Generally a nice intercept is to try and hold it on roughly your 80, while your paths converge)

After, say, 5 mins, you need to compare the generated range, speed and AOB with what the visual.

Range can be easily checked with radar or stadimeter and AOB, with practice can be easily assessed by eye

The key point is, is the target ahead or behind the predicted bearing to target. If AOB and range on the PK are roughly correct, chances are it's the speed that was wrong

If the target moved ahead of the PK generated bearing, send new data, but increase the estimated speed, if the target has fallen behind the generated bearing, set a slower speed

Then after another 5 mins, do again

Ideall, within 2 or 3 of these, the target will be "tracking well" and after 5 mins the generated bearing will match the actual bearing to target

Don't expect it to be completely perfect, just good enough, and so long as the speed was eventually correct, that's enough

Then just before firing, send new bearing, range and AOB data, and away with the fish. You can use the spread dial to create a spread.

Or alternatively having gotten the speed this way, you can use the Dick O'kane method to finish, but i prefer to keep the PK on for my attacks and send some fancy spread patterns

[joegrundman]

and yes, you will be much more likely to hit something more or less side-on than head-on

[Seminole]

I am attempting manual targeting (gulp!).


...hold on...manual targeting has been blown way out of proportion as to the difficulty of the thing. :yep: Piece of cake really especially if you have version 1.5 and a bit of experience with actually firing a few fish on patrol.

My advice would be to go to Subschool-Artillery tutorial and practice a time or two before attempting it in career. You will plainly see how all the different aspects interact to bring the torpedoes home. In subschool you can take your time and do it at leisure without the pressure of having to set up your attack on the fly as in a career.

Just remember to submerge before you begin if you have one of the mods installed that allow the subschool planes to actually do you damage...:shifty: :yep:

[kylania]

I simply cannot get an accurate range via the stadimeter especially if I've turned off Stabilize view or whatever that setting is. Also never been able to get the speed thing to work properly. :)

So while I enjoy manual targeting, at 100% realism I simply can't get hits with us.

[SteamWake]

I simply cannot get an accurate range via the stadimeter especially if I've turned off Stabilize view or whatever that setting is. Also never been able to get the speed thing to work properly. :)

So while I enjoy manual targeting, at 100% realism I simply can't get hits with us.

Speed is easy. Espically if you have a nomograph ala RFB

Just mark his location, wait a period of time, mark it again. Draw a line between the two and measure the distance. Wala you can now compute his speed. Not only that you should have also his course which can also help you to deduce the AOB.

[Munchausen]

I am playing at 15 percent realism and mark the torpedos for impact and contact.

:hmm: I'm not sure you can actually do manual attacks at that percentage. What are your game settings?

[kylania]

Also never been able to get the speed thing to work properly. :)
Speed is easy. ... Just mark his location, wait a period of time, mark it again.

Oh sure, that works well for me. I meant the little Estimate Speed Button thingie on the TDC.

[breadcatcher101]

I am trying to learn a more realistic way to obtain speed, never learned trig, but if all else fails, try using your map.

What I do is when I have the target in sight, go to the map and with your marker mark the position of the target and your position. Zoom in pretty tight when you do this. After a period of time remark both and measure distance covered by both.

From there it is easy, just compare a known speed (yours) to obtain the targets speed.

Let's say over a set time period you have covered 200 yards at 4 knots and your target has covered 600 yards.

4/200=X/600
200X=2400
X= 12Knots, your target's speed.

[kylania]

It's even easier to get an approx speed as mentioned eariler. Mark the target's position, start the stopwatch, wait 3 minutes (3.15 minutes if you're using meters) then mark the position of your target. Measure the distance between the points / 100 and that's their speed. Ex: 700y = 7kts

[I'm goin' down]

I am lost. joe grundman reply was too sophisticated for me.

Using the PK is not so hard, but a good idea is to try and visualise the AOB, by mentally converting the flat screen image into a 3D mental image. \

What is the PK?


OK, here's how I will do it

As soon as the target is within 9000yds set your first PK estimates. If you use radar to get your range, then it's easy. Just put in the range you estimate (there is a mod that lets you freespin the range wheel to set the range of your choosing - this is helpful for when the stadimeter is not the ideal tool), the AOB that you estimate, and then enter an estimated speed. If you have sonar reporting speed, this will help you. Turn on the PK

Now downscope or whatever you want to do next. Go and work out it's course according to the AOB info (this is easy as you can simply read it's computed course on the PK)

Set up a general intercept route (Generally a nice intercept is to try and hold it on roughly your 80, while your paths converge)

What is to your 80?


After, say, 5 mins, you need to compare the generated range, speed and AOB with what the visual.

Range can be easily checked with radar or stadimeter and AOB, with practice can be easily assessed by eye

The key point is, is the target ahead or behind the predicted bearing to target. If AOB and range on the PK are roughly correct, chances are it's the speed that was wrong

If the target moved ahead of the PK generated bearing, send new data, but increase the estimated speed, if the target has fallen behind the generated bearing, set a slower speed

Then after another 5 mins, do again

Ideall, within 2 or 3 of these, the target will be "tracking well" and after 5 mins the generated bearing will match the actual bearing to target

Don't expect it to be completely perfect, just good enough, and so long as the speed was eventually correct, that's enough

Then just before firing, send new bearing, range and AOB data, and away with the fish. You can use the spread dial to create a spread.

Or alternatively having gotten the speed this way, you can use the Dick O'kane method to finish, but i prefer to keep the PK on for my attacks and send some fancy spread patterns

[tale]

Learn by example with WernerSobe video tutorials:

Check this link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=897224&postcount=167)

[I'm goin' down]

Learn by example with WernerSobe video tutorials:

Check this link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=897224&postcount=167)

Had done that previously. Thanks.

[Rockin Robbins]

Normally Rockin Robbins comes charging into threads like this and flaps his gums incoherently. But RR is having too much fun right now with a thread on, you guessed it, "too many airplanes." We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.:sunny:

[Seminole]

Also never been able to get the speed thing to work properly. :)
Speed is easy. ... Just mark his location, wait a period of time, mark it again.

Oh sure, that works well for me. I meant the little Estimate Speed Button thingie on the TDC.

I have found that Estimate Speed Button(ESB) to be accurate enough for the job..but I always back it up with an estimate from map plotting...just to be safe.

The accuracy of the ESB is directly related to the accuracy of your range estimates. My speed estimates via ESB calculations are almost always within 1 KPH of my map plot estimates.

And no I don't use stabalize view either...nor do I use any mod that greatly exaggerates the roll and pitch of the boat to unmanagable ingame proportions to create a false feeling of "realism".


One trick I use if the seas are too stormy to get good range estimates is to raise the keel depth a few feet above standard periscope depth. In most instances just a few feet will suffice to get a good measurement without undue risk of detection.

[doulos05]

One trick I use if the seas are too stormy to get good range estimates is to raise the keel depth a few feet above standard periscope depth. In most instances just a few feet will suffice to get a good measurement without undue risk of detection.

Shoot, I do that with auto-targeting. Not for the range, but the actual shot. Since I'm usually shooting inside 1000 yards, by that time, they really don't have a lot of time to react even if they do see me.

[I'm goin' down]

Rockin Robbins, bless his soul, advised me that I could not program speed in the steadimeter because I was in auto mode even though I had checked the box for manual targeting. He says you can only select manual targeting when you are in port. No wonder I'm goin' down....

Sorry for the screw up. If I had only known I would not have wasted everyone's time.

[Christopher Snow]

Re: Manual Solution Plotting in General (I have not read the whole thread):

I've been out of the sub-sim loop since the SH3 days (I need help getting SH4 running, in fact--see FAQ query thread), but I do remember I used to use a 6" protractor placed directly onto my monitor surface to work up manual solutions back in SH3. The target runs typically required 20-30 plots each, over the course of an hour or two (always running ahead of the target) to work up a good shot (always @100% realism too, btw).

I remember we had some issues then with poor (or non-existent) "in-sim" targeting aids for a while there, so I used this hands-on manual targeting solution instead. It worked so well, I might not have bothered at all with "in-game" tools had they then been available to me.

I even used this manual technique to sink a small ocean going tug (under 200 tons as I recall (?)) in heavy swells one day. It took me more than two hours to work up a good solution on him, and I was really quite chuffed when I put him under with a single shot (I NEVER shot a spread at any target, as best I can remember--I always went by the theory: "If you don't know where he is, then you don't KNOW! So don't shoot!). :D

----------------------------

If you do try it, be aware of two things:

1) Take care to NOT scratch your monitor screen with any hand tools (I used a relatively soft kids "grade school" type see-through plastic protractor (purchased at my local "Target" store) on the screen of my old 21" CRT, so I had no real worries about doing damage).

These days, I would be more cautious--The surface of today's LCD's are more easily damaged. I would NOT use metal tools anywhere near a LCD monitor, for example, and even with plastic, I would use them quite carefully (purhaps you might even consider fitting a thin, transparent plastic/glass "overscreen" when using your monitor as a plotting board)....

2) Make sure your screen is representing objects at a "correct" or "true" aspect ratio (height vs width) of 1:1. If circles are distorted in any way...stretched either too tall or too much out to the sides, then this idea probably won't work.

From my perpective, I also like doing it this way because it seemed rather more "realistic" than just pushing keys or buttons. I've always thought of targeting, and mapping in general, as something best done with a "hands on" approach.


CS

[Nisgeis]

Christopher,

You didn't say how you actually did your plot. Did you take measurements off the nav map and then plot them on paper?

Edit to correct Christopher's name oops!

[Christopher Snow]

Good Question, and you are quite right: I didn't say.

In general, yes: I DID use the nav map (as best I remember. I remember that I did have a "conversion scale" nearby...to convert measurement's taken off the protracter (I also used a 12" plastic ruler), to scale, based on the amount of "ZOOM" I used.

In fact, I cannot remember all the details of exactly how i did it. I'm quite sure I did manage it successfully, however. And...I' m quite sure I will be able to work it all out again once I am able to run SH4 successfully on my own PC.

It was NOT rocket science. And, Moreover, it was not really even "high science." As best I can recall, it required only basic math*.

[* Basic Trigonometry at the outside]


Once I can finally get SH4 to load and run, I will probably have to work it out all over again (but I'm quite sure it can be done too). In the meantime, you might SEARCH back through posts based on my own name (not that I'm an expertm particularly--as I recall there were a half-dozen of us discussing this idea (three-four years back I would guess)) I have the idea I DID put up at least one very lengthy post then about how I did it (I hope I don't waste your time searching--I really DO remember discussing it).

For my part I ran only three or four patrols, at the beginning of the war (and so the method I used might NOT have been feasible when plotting inside a convoy, for example).
My method worked well when I was up against single targets (early in the war). I cannot vouch for it's workability later in the war (from personal experience, anyway).

At the same time, I'll also opine that I'm unaware of any method (other than shooting manuallly (off bearing) while up on the surface that might have produced better results.

During my tenure as a "U-Boat Captain", in SH3, I do not remember ANY method which produced better resuls ffor a one man (loner) type operation


CS

[Christopher Snow]

As best I recall: What I used to do was to focus primarily on target bearing (and I would then relate/orient myself to HIS track, with almost a complete disregard for anything else).

I would typically pop up for a look... every.two minutes or so. I usually did NOT look around much for escorts either, even if I knew they were there. Theu were so fast, there was not much I could do (I migtht take a shot if one presented himself close at hand, but otherwise, I ignored them.)

CS

[Galanti]

If you're stalking unescorted merchantment, a great way to check the accuracy of your TDC solution is use infrequent sonar pings.

Set up your solution using whatever method you normally use. Make sure PK is turned on. Then, at intervals of your choosing, and while you're in a screen that shows the TDC so you can watch the projected range, use the orders bar to ask for a 'Range to target' from sonar. When soanr responds in the message box, compare that range with the TDC's computed range. They should be identical to within a few yards. If not, if means your speed or AOB estimates are off. Or perhaps you've misidentifed the target and are using incorrect height measurements to get the range.

The important thing is that over time, small innaccuries in your solution will translate into big discrepancies in computed TDC range versus actual range, and active sonar pings will show these errors. Unfortunately,like I said, not advisable when warships are lurking about as they can detect your sonar pings.