Gorby is back

[nikimcbee]

Blast from the past!
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20080930/INTERNATIONAL-US-RUSSIA-GORBACHEV-PARTY/

What about Genady Zyuganov?

[CCIP]

What about Zyuganov?

Gorby's long shied away from the commies, I believe. :hmm:

[nikimcbee]

I can't keep track off all the Russian political parties.

[CCIP]

This paragraph sums it up pretty well:

Though hugely admired in the West, he is deeply unpopular at home for presiding over the 1991 break-up of the Soviet Union that led to economic and political chaos. When he last ran for president, in 1996, he won just half a percent of the vote.
I really doubt this will get anywhere. Not that I would personally want it to, either - as far as politicians for Russia go, I'd sooner vote Putin + Medvedev than Gorbachev + Lebedev (which is like saying that hell would sooner freeze over...). At least the former have succeeded at not ruining the country.

I've tended to respect Gorbachev's intentions and ideals, but as a politician he's been consistently inept.

[nikimcbee]

Wait, Lebedev is/was that Gerenal isn't he? didn't he try to get into politics about 10 years ago?

[CCIP]

Wait, Lebedev is/was that Gerenal isn't he? didn't he try to get into politics about 10 years ago?
Um, that would be Lebed, whom I greatly respected - and who has been dead for over 6 years now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebed

Personally, I still refuse to believe his death was accidental. He had far too many enemies for that.

The one meant here is Alexander Lebedev, just another oligarch... and former spy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebedev
No particular respect from me. Meh.

[nikimcbee]

Wait, Lebedev is/was that Gerenal isn't he? didn't he try to get into politics about 10 years ago?
Um, that would be Lebed, whom I greatly respected - and who has been dead for over 6 years now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebed

Personally, I still refuse to believe his death was accidental. He had far too many enemies for that.

The one meant here is Alexander Lebedev, just another oligarch... and former spy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebedev
No particular respect from me. Meh.

I remember him. He has the deep voice!

Most Russians don't care whether they are ruled by fascists or communists or even Martians as long as they can buy six kinds of sausage in the store and lots of cheap vodka."

oh, and before I forget, good to have you back CCIP:up:

[Sailor Steve]

oh, and before I forget, good to have you back CCIP:up:
I have nothing substantial to offer this thread, but I do have to echo that sentiment!:rock: :sunny:

[Brag]

Gorby failed to foresee Ukraine drifting off. That blotted his copy book forever.

[CCIP]

oh, and before I forget, good to have you back CCIP:up: I have nothing substantial to offer this thread, but I do have to echo that sentiment!:rock: :sunny:
Thanks guys :D




Gorby doesn't have a 'main' failure I would say. His real failure is that he had big ideals and very little practical sense to manage them. In principle, Perestroika was a good idea - in practice it rapidly accelerated into a disaster which the state basically lost all control. I can sympathise with the fact that the state Gorbachev inherited was a mess - but really, any state always needs a leader who can manage its idiosyncracies. Gorby didn't. I think were he to be allowed to power again, he would once again blow it - and frankly, he still hasn't been held sufficiently responsible for blowing it the first time. The West may be grateful to him for dismantling the USSR, but try to look at it from the other perspective - he caused a massive social and economic collapse, one which caused a disproportionate amount of suffering for the average ex-Soviet citizen.

[AntEater]

I think most western people don't understand what Putin meant when he called the breakup of the USSR "a disaster":
Maybe it is soviet nostalgia on his part, but counting in all those killed by civil war, malnutrition, crime and ethnic violence, the death toll of the breakup of the soviet Union must be quite high, maybe well over a million in total.

[Skybird]

For obvious reasons, Gorbatchev will always enjoy special respect and sympathy in germany. We really owe him a lot - and more than anybody else. Without his willingness, reunification would not have been possible. They once showed a long and very good docu on him, where they examined and showed the intrigues against him and howhis opponents manouvered against hiom in his back, and isolated him. With a more loyal team to his support, I think he would have been more successful regarding Soviet/Russian internal interests. I also think he does not compare to the selling out of Russian interests to Western economic enterprises that took place under Yeltsin - that man, beside his role in the attempted coup in the beginning, turned out to be a real disgrace for Russia. Putin bad, anti-democratic reputaiton comes from Putin needing to repair and save what had been damaged and lost by Yeltsin, who really let behind a China shop in rubble and let Putin no other choice than to rule with iron hand and powerpolitics instead of democratic playacting.

Gorbatchev deserved a better historic reputation than the record people outside Germany remember him for.

[Skybird]

And I thought an ant-eater is a survival-expert. :D

[CCIP]

I think most western people don't understand what Putin meant when he called the breakup of the USSR "a disaster":
Maybe it is soviet nostalgia on his part, but counting in all those killed by civil war, malnutrition, crime and ethnic violence, the death toll of the breakup of the soviet Union must be quite high, maybe well over a million in total.
Millions, probably. And it's been no better, if not worse, for the living. On the whole that was no way for a regime to end - it was abrupt, unplanned, and badly managed. Meltdowns like that only introduce additional trauma which makes it difficult for a society to gain some measure of being a normal, perhaps democratic one.

And Skybird, I would definitely acknowledge one thing: compared to Yeltsin, Gorbachev is definitely an angel...

[mrbeast]

I quite liked Gorbachev, like some have pointd out here, he had some high ideals and I think was on the right track. His main problem was that he inheritted economic and political system that was not only a mess but fatally flawed, it couldn't be improved without starting from scratch. His main failing was not recognising this fact.

I think its unfair to lay the economic and social mess that followed at his feet, that was largely fault of Yeltsin and his economic advisers that recomended unrestricted, free market 'Shock Therapy' as the solution to Russia's problems, how wrong they turned out to be!

[Brag]

For obvious reasons, Gorbatchev will always enjoy special respect and sympathy in germany. We really owe him a lot - and more than anybody else. Without his willingness, reunification would not have been possible. They once showed a long and very good docu on him, where they examined and showed the intrigues against him and howhis opponents manouvered against hiom in his back, and isolated him. With a more loyal team to his support, I think he would have been more successful regarding Soviet/Russian internal interests. I also think he does not compare to the selling out of Russian interests to Western economic enterprises that took place under Yeltsin - that man, beside his role in the attempted coup in the beginning, turned out to be a real disgrace for Russia. Putin bad, anti-democratic reputaiton comes from Putin needing to repair and save what had been damaged and lost by Yeltsin, who really let behind a China shop in rubble and let Putin no other choice than to rule with iron hand and powerpolitics instead of democratic playacting.

Gorbatchev deserved a better historic reputation than the record people outside Germany remember him for.

Excellent analysis, Skybird :D

[CCIP]

Personally, I would much rather see Gorby in some sort of an international role. Make him some sort of special envoy between the EU and Russia, or something of that sort. I think he'd make an excellent and well-respected figure to conduct international politics and he has a good record for being conciliatory (even if he went too far with it sometimes). I just don't think he'd be able to handle Russia's internal politics.

[nikimcbee]

I forgot to add, i saw gorby, back in 1985 when I came to the US. He spoke at my dad's workplace.